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RIAA Suit Rejected With Prejudice 649

yfarren writes "According to cdfreaks.com the RIAA has lost the case against the mother of a 13 year old girl accused of file-sharing violations." From the article: "The case was dismissed with prejudice, which prevents the case from being advanced against the defendant. Finally, the RIAA tried asking the Judge to amend the judgment in order to allow them to sue the child through a Guardian Ad Litem. However the court denied [the] RIAA's request."
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RIAA Suit Rejected With Prejudice

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  • by dtfinch ( 661405 ) * on Monday September 26, 2005 @04:50PM (#13653932) Journal
    RIAA beaten by 13 year old girl.
    • by Laz7 ( 754088 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @04:52PM (#13653962) Homepage
      host that video file on the P2P networks and see what happens to you ! *smile*
    • by turtled ( 845180 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:01PM (#13654028)
      the RIAA tried asking the Judge to amend the judgment in order to allow them to sue the child

      Were they going to sue for lunch money??
      • No, they would sue to attach her future wages and to make an example out of her.

        The RIAA has never been above scare tactics to get their way.
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          Comment removed based on user account deletion
          • Nice try. But no. (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Kadin2048 ( 468275 )
            I don't think that you can get yourself out of court-imposed debts through bankruptcy. Otherwise you'd have deadbeat dads, drunk drivers, and other scum doing it all the time to avoid paying up. I'm not sure exactly what kind of legal language prevents you from being able to do it, but my recollection is that even if you declare bankruptcy, that satisfies only PRIVATE debts -- as soon as you start making money again, the courts will garnish your wages to pay off the PUBLIC ones.

            OT: The other interesting pla
            • Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)

              by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) * on Monday September 26, 2005 @08:26PM (#13655358)
              Comment removed based on user account deletion
              • Re:Nice try. But no. (Score:5, Informative)

                by Kadin2048 ( 468275 ) <slashdot...kadin@@@xoxy...net> on Monday September 26, 2005 @09:17PM (#13655605) Homepage Journal
                I am not a bankruptcy lawyer either, but I did ask one where I could find the list of "non-dischargable" debts:

                You'll find it here: TITLE 11 > CHAPTER 5 > SUBCHAPTER II > 523 [cornell.edu]. A more verbose discussion is available here [cornell.edu], which you might find interesting, if not exactly light reading.

                I'll summarize (skipping the irrelevant subsections):

                A discharge under section 727, 1141, 1228 (a), 1228 (b), or 1328 (b) of this title does not discharge an individual debtor from any debt-- (19) that-- (B) results from-- (i) any judgment, order, consent order, or decree entered in any Federal or State judicial or administrative proceeding; (ii) any settlement agreement entered into by the debtor; or (iii) any court or administrative order for any damages, fine, penalty, citation, restitutionary payment, disgorgement payment, attorney fee, cost, or other payment owed by the debtor.

                So pretty much, if any court orders you to pay something, or you agree to a settlement, you're SOL as far as declaring bankruptcy to discharge it goes. And unlike some of the other subsections, which have "outs" for things like inability to pay, or the benefit to the debtor outweighing the benefit to the creditor by discharging it, that section has no outs.
    • by MoreNoiseThanSignal ( 916548 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:21PM (#13654207) Homepage
      i think an even more appropriate little would be "LOL PWND".
      but maybe that's just me.
    • by HardCase ( 14757 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:42PM (#13654367)
      Actually, no. The court dismissed the suit "with prejudice" against the mother, Candy Chan, but they dismissed the suit "without predjudice" against anybody else. The second order denied the RIAA's motion to amend the original lawsuit to add the daughter as a defendant. Only the motion to amend was denied - the RIAA can file a new lawsuit.

      In fact, the second sentence of the second order [riaalawsuits.us] is pretty clear: "The court also ruled that the plantiffs were not prevented from bringing an action against anyone else, including Brittany Chan, the minor child of Candy Chan."

      So, all that's happened is that mom has managed to shift the blame from her to her daughter. Mom gets to pay her attorney's fees and the RIAA gets another crack at the family through the daughter.

      -h-
  • by BWJones ( 18351 ) * on Monday September 26, 2005 @04:51PM (#13653937) Homepage Journal

    Mwaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha heeee heeeeeee wheeeeeee. *SNORT* Bah ha ha ha ha *wheeeeeze!* *snicker*

    In principal I agree that music theft is bad and in all honesty, none of my music is pirated, but you gotta realize that stuff like this just makes you guys look bad. Bad as in $#!theads, not bad as in cool.

    Karma goes around and it comes around, so i'd say this is due.

    Oh and Edgar Bronfman Jr: You say you want to hold the cheapest songs on iTunes to .99 cents and raise the prices on the popular tracks? Was not this what you were trying to do when that pesky price fixing scheme was discovered back when you were at Universal? Are you guys *trying* to put yourselves out of business?

    • by 91degrees ( 207121 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:11PM (#13654120) Journal
      Indeed. This was pretty heavy handed of the RIAA.

      Actually, it's possible that the court overstepped its authority, but would any judge want to issue such a judgement against a 13 year old who, quite honestly, is hardly a reckless tearaway. Any sane judge is going to be more lenient towards the kid than the multi-million dollar trade organisation.
    • by moosesocks ( 264553 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:31PM (#13654285) Homepage

      Oh and Edgar Bronfman Jr: You say you want to hold the cheapest songs on iTunes to .99 cents and raise the prices on the popular tracks? Was not this what you were trying to do when that pesky price fixing scheme was discovered back when you were at Universal? Are you guys *trying* to put yourselves out of business?


      Not only is he trying to put himself out of business, he's trying to directly oppose the law of supply and demand. Granted, it's been argued that the S&D laws don't necessarily apply to intellectual property and the like, but charging a premium for a high-volume item is a recipe for disaster.

      If anything, it's the rare live recordings that should be priced more agressively. Why would we want to pay a premium for a song that's played frequently on the radio?

      I could possibly see something like 'Buy 2 songs from this EP and get the 3rd for $.50' -- which would be a win-win for consumers and the labels. Consumers get a cheap song, and the labels still make a profit on it because chances are, without the discount, the person wouldn't have purchased the song.

      The RIAA is shooting itself in the foot.
    • by Geoffreyerffoeg ( 729040 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:47PM (#13654404)
      Are you guys *trying* to put yourselves out of business?

      Yes.

      Because if the industry's failing, it's a lot easier to blame it on copyright infringement than poor business decisions, because copyright infringement is defined and illegal but poor business decisions are just poor decision, and it's difficult to prove either bad faith by the execs or that copyright infringement has no effect. And you can get a lot more money by suing people than by playing with a fair market (especially one with IP, which has zero marginal cost and the customers realize it).
    • Your post would have been better if you knew the difference between theft and copyright infringement—the RIAA threatens and pursues copyright infringement lawsuits. Judges and RIAA lawyers know the difference, but the RIAA public affairs uses the wrong language.
    • by nietsch ( 112711 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:58PM (#13654477) Homepage Journal
      In a very short summary:
      RIAA: this woman shared our files on p2p
      MOM: no I did not, it was somebody else, maybe one of my children.
      MOM: yes it was Brittany, not me.
      RIAA: Ok, get the Dumb cow off the list
      MOM: No, I want my legal costs paid.
      Judge: nope, you should have turned in your kid sooner, so no money for you. But RIAA wants you off the list, so there you go, it has been decided.

      Now what was so funny about that judgement?
      • by KarmaMB84 ( 743001 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @07:13PM (#13654967)
        Their only legal recourse is the PR disaster of filing a completely new lawsuit naming a 13 year old girl? Up until this point, they've been trying to just sue whoever had their name on the IP address. If this trend continues and the RIAA tries to sue hundreds or thousands of children, the public might be enraged to the point that Congress would be forced to make changes to the laws that make the RIAA's witchhunt possible.

        We let a lot of kids off with less punishment for accidentally killing another child than the RIAA wants from these kids for sharing music (and possibly unknowingly at that since the p2p apps are configured that way...).
    • by shark72 ( 702619 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @10:46PM (#13655965)

      "You say you want to hold the cheapest songs on iTunes to .99 cents and raise the prices on the popular tracks? Was not this what you were trying to do when that pesky price fixing scheme was discovered back when you were at Universal?"

      Kind of, but not quite.

      This is how the price fixing thing went down:

      1. Best Buy and Wal-Mart started selling CDs at or below cost as an incentive to get customers into the stores (where they'd ideally buy higher priced, higher margin items -- the CDs are what's known as "loss leaders").
      2. A few music retailers (TWE and Tower Records among them), which did not have stores full of consumer electronics, clothing or groceries to sell, could simply not match the loss-leading prices posted by Wal-Mart and Best Buy. So, they went to the record companies for help.
      3. The record companies set up MAP ("minimum advertised price") programs with TWE and Tower. The record companies would help fund the stores' ads (called "program money" or "co-op money") as long as the ads didn't list prices that went below the MAP. Tower and TWE could sell CDs for whatever prices they wanted; but they couldn't advertise them below the MAP. MAP programs, by the way, are prevalent in many, many industries, including the PC peripheral industry.
      4. Best Buy and Wal-Mart, which were getting no program money from the record labels, went to the government.
      5. The court, in turn, smacked the record companies and told them to stop their MAP programs. They did... and meanwhile, MAP programs continue in many other industries.
      6. Wal-Mart and Best Buy continued selling CDs at or below cost. Tower Records filed for bankrupcty.

      The price fixing judgement was a win for Wal-Mart and Best Buy. The big losers were not the record companies (as the MAP programs did not affect the price at which they sold records into distribution), but indie record stores, which can no longer get co-op money from record labels. It's also a loss, indirectly, for people like me who remember and cherish indie record stores. They're a dying breed.

  • by conJunk ( 779958 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @04:51PM (#13653938)
    ...I for one welcome our new bullshit-lawsuit-quashing overlords.
  • Huge mistakes (Score:5, Insightful)

    by fembots ( 753724 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @04:51PM (#13653939) Homepage
    They shouldn't have let it go to the court.

    But good news for everyone else.
  • by fragmentate ( 908035 ) <jdspilled.gmail@com> on Monday September 26, 2005 @04:51PM (#13653944) Journal
    Going after 13 year olds... it's like some sort of electronic pedophilia.
    • Re:Easy Targets (Score:5, Insightful)

      by penguinoid ( 724646 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:14PM (#13654133) Homepage Journal
      Going after 13 year olds... it's like some sort of electronic pedophilia.

      Not so much pedophilia... It incredibly commonplace for any hunting animal to target the young or the weak, those who cannot fight back or run. In this case it seems most unfair. As others have pointed out, minors do not have credit cards and thus cannot buy music online, and the parents are often quite clueless. Anyhow, this doesn't help the prejudice that lawyers == sharks.
      • Re:Easy Targets (Score:5, Interesting)

        by TheRaven64 ( 641858 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:25PM (#13654237) Journal
        It incredibly commonplace for any hunting animal to target the young or the weak, those who cannot fight back or run.

        The weak, maybe, but targeting the young is often a huge mistake. There are few things more ferocious than a mother protecting her cubs - most predators that fail to realise this don't pass on their genes.

  • by dada21 ( 163177 ) * <adam.dada@gmail.com> on Monday September 26, 2005 @04:51PM (#13653946) Homepage Journal
    While I feel this court ruling is fair, the opinions in the article are a bit off...

    In my opinion, the RIAA should not be allowed to target young minors with lawsuits, especially since most cannot afford to purchase music as it is, let alone have a credit / debit card to use legal services.

    So if a child steals from a store that they go to without a parent, it should be OK because the minor can't afford to purchase the item?

    more reasonable approach would be first send a warning to their parents about what is going on, since in many cases the parents don't understand what's going on.

    And when the parents are unaware of their child, it is bad parenting. Sometimes a warning isn't enough.

    I agree that the RIAA's suit was unfounded, in this case. I also believe the RIAA has lost their battles and will only be wasting time and money on additional lawsuits (that will cost them, in the long run, far more than they will 'save' or 'gain' in judgements).

    I'm not even sure that the RIAA can afford so many lawsuits. Sure, they're a multi-billion dollar "co-op" organization "defending" artists, but each lawsuit costs them something. Even with in-house legal staff, there are still filing fees, follow-up costs, and the like. I'm assuming their return-on-investment is calculated by how many people they assume will stop pirating their music out of fear of lawsuits? So they're assuming that they'll be seeing a return from people buying more albums because they are afraid to pirate because the RIAA sues pirates? Confusing.

    The reality, though, is that they likely won't stop suing, and if they even win 1 out of 10 cases, it will likely cause them to fail even more.

    So I say, sue away, RIAA.
    • copy vs steal (Score:3, Insightful)

      So if a child steals from a store that they go to without a parent, it should be OK because the minor can't afford to purchase the item?

      If a child makes a photocopy of a book he/she can't afford, then I think the described leniency should apply.

    • by flanksteak ( 69032 ) * on Monday September 26, 2005 @04:58PM (#13654012) Homepage
      Agreed. The RIAA lost mainly because they tried to sue a parent over the actions of the child. The court said, nice try, but if your beef is with the child, then sue the child. Either the RIAA was suing the parent to get the extortion money to keep paying for the lawsuits, or suing the parent to avoid the unpleasant reaction that would probably ensue for going after a thirteen year old. Both seem plausible. Haven't other parents paid up in other suits that weren't contested like this?

      Since this was Federal court, does anyone know if this makes precedent that will force the RIAA to change tactics (i.e., start going after the kids directly)?
      • by dada21 ( 163177 ) * <adam.dada@gmail.com> on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:01PM (#13654029) Homepage Journal
        I own multiple retail businesses, and when a child steals from me, I guess I "extort" the parent by saying "pay up or I'm calling the cops." In fact, I've CALLED the cops a few times to arrest the kid, and the parent pays up, in front of the cops, and I've never been arrested for extortion.
      • by HardCase ( 14757 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:48PM (#13654410)
        No, the RIAA did not lose. The RIAA sued the parent because that's who "owned" the IP address. When they finally got the parent to 'fess up and admit which child had done the deed, they asked for the lawsuit to be dismissed, with prejudice, against the mother and amended to name the child. The mother objected to that, so the judge had to make the decision. The real score? The RIAA won one (the case was dismissed with prejudice), lost one (they didn't get amend their original lawsuit) and the mother lost two (she gets to pay for her attorney and her daughter is still open to a new lawsuit).

        Dunno if the RIAA is right or wrong, but I'm pretty sure that a /. story that links to a blog linking to a blog is probably a pretty inaccurate way to get the straight story. The real news is in the actual court documents.

        -h-
    • Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:02PM (#13654037)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • So if a child steals from a store that they go to without a parent, it should be OK because the minor can't afford to purchase the item?


      Fair enough, but for an intangible like copyright, I am not sure what sort of damage one can allege.

      Oh that's right.... It is damage because the parent didn't pay for the intangible, not that it caused a demonstrable loss. Right....

      The problem is that copyright infringement is not like theft any more than tresspassing is.* If I go into your back yard and pitch a tent and
    • by size1one ( 630807 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:08PM (#13654090)
      "So if a child steals from a store that they go to without a parent, it should be OK because the minor can't afford to purchase the item?"

      No it is not ok.

      You've just made the common mistake of replacing "copyright infringement" with "theft". In this case they become quite different. A theft from a store takes a tangible good from the store, something that might be sold to someone else. Downloading a song online does not prevent the sale to someone else.

      • OK. So what if the child walked into a record store, picked up a CD, opened it, stuck it in his/her laptop and ripped it. Then carefully put the CD back in the case, back on the shelf and walked out. Is that OK? Is it more or less OK for a child to do that than an adult? Personally I'd say it's not OK for anyone to do it, regardless of whether they can afford the CD or not.
      • ...replacing "copyright infringement" with "theft". In this case they become quite different.

        Of course it's the same. After all, if people copy 100 billion CDs, then it really does cost the RIAA one trillion dollars.
      • Great point. It is a problem I've repeated often in the past, thinking back. How do I get out of that habit, though?

        Copyright infringement seems like such a antiquated law now that information is so freely available. Why does it stick around when a more proper venue for information should be performances that can't be copied easily? Live bands can never be captured well if their performances are tangible. I've openly recorded shows I've been allowed to (using great equipment, too) and just can't listen
    • So if a child steals from a store that they go to without a parent, it should be OK because the minor can't afford to purchase the item?

      It's not theft, it's copyright infringement. Shoplifting is a crime. As with all crimes you would need evidence to prosecute. There is an actual loss that you can measure. With copyright infringement, there is no physical loss and flacky evidence.

      And when the parents are unaware of their child, it is bad parenting. Sometimes a warning isn't enough.

      So a person is a bad p
    • by HunterZ ( 20035 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:10PM (#13654111) Journal
      I'm not even sure that the RIAA can afford so many lawsuits. Sure, they're a multi-billion dollar "co-op" organization "defending" artists, but each lawsuit costs them something. Even with in-house legal staff, there are still filing fees, follow-up costs, and the like. I'm assuming their return-on-investment is calculated by how many people they assume will stop pirating their music out of fear of lawsuits? So they're assuming that they'll be seeing a return from people buying more albums because they are afraid to pirate because the RIAA sues pirates? Confusing.

      Actually, there have been very few (if any) RIAA lawsuits that have actually gone to court and reached a verdict. From what I gather, the RIAA has set up a telephone call center via which defendants can pay setllements in order to call off the lawyers. This costs them practically nothing: they just mail out threatening letters and wait for the money to roll in.

      I think this is one of the first major defeats the RIAA has suffered so far in relation to its sue-the-customers scheme, and we can only hope that it will bolster more people into challenging the RIAA's suits instead of settling out of court via their hotline. The problem is that anyone who challenges the RIAA and wins will have to then pay their own lawyers' fees, so many people decide that settling is cheaper and less time-consuming - which is exactly what the RIAA is gambling on because they want to brag about how many people their goons have scared settlements out of so far.
  • Oh joy! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Brandon K ( 888791 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @04:52PM (#13653949)
    13 year old girls - 1
    The **AA - 3247923874932749782365926323

    We're catching up!

    Seriously though, I hope these rulings keep coming. Although it is wrong to pirate music and other media, you shouldn't have to pay thousands of dollars in fines.
  • by Spytap ( 143526 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @04:53PM (#13653969)
    ...that such a strong dismissal would also include this part:

    "While the case was dismissed, the mother had to pay legal fees as the Judge refused to award her attorneys fees. The reason is that the plaintiffs' lawyers had taken the appropriate steps in trying to prosecute the mother and that the mother used tactics to obstruct the Plaintiff to efficiently prosecute her."

    So it's dismissed, but she still owes somewhere between a couple thousand and a hundred thousand dollars? She's fucked regardless.

    RIAA's still making it's message heard: Either roll over early, or we'll fuck you for life.
    • How much? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by SmallFurryCreature ( 593017 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:02PM (#13654039) Journal
      Exactly what kinda attorny do you think she got? The message here is simple, the court WILL spank both sides if they misbehave. She tried apparently to pull something that was not to the courts liking so the judge send a message by making her pay her laywer. Had she not obstructed the case then the RIAA would probably have had to cough up the dough to pay her lawyer. Idoubt the bill comes to more then a couple hundred bucks. This was not a long complex drawn out case.

      Just because your innocent does not make it all right for you to not obey the law to the full. It is something an awfull lot of people seem to forget and it is a judges job to remind them.

      Pity the article does not make clear exactly what she did. but the message still remains clear, obey the law. You have some leeway and big company's can't just steamroll you but neither can you steamroll the law.

    • by Pac ( 9516 ) <paulo...candido@@@gmail...com> on Monday September 26, 2005 @06:17PM (#13654593)
      I always found this is one of the strangest features in the US Justice System - that the loser does not automatically gets to pay both sides fees in a civil complaint. After all, if you bring a lawsuit against me and I am proved innocent, you still get to bankrupt me on legal fees (or force me to surrender whatever you wnat without trial because I can't afford it). It is not only unfair, it (probably intentionally) tilts the balance of Justice in favour of corporations and against the consumers or the common person. I wonder why there is no popular movement to review this specific legislation so anyone can defend him/herself against corporate lawsuits without fear of losing everything to the lawyers on the way to reclaim Justice.
  • ad litem defined (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 26, 2005 @04:54PM (#13653977)
    The OED cites a law dictionary from 1959: "A guardian ad litem is a person appointed to defend an action or other proceeding on behalf of an infant.. or a lunatic or idiot not so found.. who is defendant or respondent to a proceeding in the court."
  • Fucking hell (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Turn-X Alphonse ( 789240 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @04:54PM (#13653981) Journal
    I think I speak for us all when I say "What The Fuck".

    What company wants to sue children? We were all kids once, we probably commited minor crimes (stole a chocolate bar or whatever). But you never hear a shop keeper going "lets sue the little kid! He's a right fucker him!", they slap them on the wrist, tell their parents and keep a closer eye on them.

    I didn't like the RIAA before, but when they start to sue children.. you've crossed a line no adult should even think of crossing.
  • by Suzumushi ( 907838 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @04:55PM (#13653987)
    Now if only we can get the judges to terminate with extreme prejudice these RIAA bullies...
  • by RetrogradeMotion ( 906811 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @04:55PM (#13653990)
    ... with a rendition of "I fought the RIAA and the law won."
  • Liability questions (Score:5, Interesting)

    by solarlux ( 610904 ) <noplasmaNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Monday September 26, 2005 @04:56PM (#13653997)
    Practically speaking, is there much difference between suing the 13 yr old vs suing the parent? Let's say the RIAA successfully sues the girl and pins her with a $1,000,000 settlement -- who's liable? It's not like the girl has any assets they can seize. Can they then go after the parent's assets? If so, is there really much difference in whether they sue the mom or the girl?
  • precedent? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by circletimessquare ( 444983 ) <circletimessquar ... m ['gma' in gap]> on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:00PM (#13654019) Homepage Journal
    IANAL, but does this mean soccer moms have nothing to worry about from RIAA pressure tactics or does this mean EVERYONE has nothing to worry about?

    if i get an extortion letter form the RIAA for $36,000 because i downloaded Kelly Clarkson, can i play stupid in court and win?

    "honest your honor, i didn't know that anyone could connect to my WiFi connection and use teh intarweb"

    "honest your honor, i didn't know what my dumb cousin vinny was doing on the computer all night"

    "honest your honor, i didn't know that that program is for illegal music"

    do clueless soccer moms get off scott free? or anyone who challenges the RIAA and plays stupid?

    serious question: can anyone plead ignorance in court and win against the RIAA extortions now?

    i personally think that would be wonderful if true, because you can say what you want about the immorality of downloading pirated music, but the extortion the RIAA is pulling against average folks of limited financial and legal means is a greater form of immoral behavior

    someone who is a lawyer speak up: has the RIAA's extortion mill been effectively shut down now?

    please say yes ;-)
  • by RyanFenton ( 230700 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:00PM (#13654026)
    She still had to pay her defence costs in this case - hardly unusual, but very much a threat against those who don't want to settle. Yes, they can use this case as precident, but the costs of any court case just won't be acceptable to most of the people here in the U.S., who are living in a constant state of debt. This leaves the threat of bankruptcy as a legitimate tool of terror in the hands of the content distribution organizations, and any other corporations that decide that preying on the weak to settle is a legitimate financial strategy.

    We need some corporate anti-terror legislation to stop corporations from acting to terrorize citizens. We already have too much historic and current legislation running the other way around. Of course, we used to just call it organized crime when applied to corporations, but terror as a political label is in fashion these days.

    Ryan Fenton
  • fun with popups (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jaxon6 ( 104115 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:02PM (#13654041)
    Repeat after me:

    Never, ever, ever link to a site with that level of popups.

    I really think /. should make a point of not linking to sites that are just that shitty. Maybe the site owners will get the point.

    And when the hell is Firefox going to get functionality to block flash-based popups?
  • And then... (Score:5, Funny)

    by anandamide ( 86527 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:05PM (#13654076)
    ...they tried asking the Judge to amend the judgment in order to allow them to roll over the child's cute,fuzzy puppy with a hella gnarly steamroller, which the judge granted.
  • by mpapet ( 761907 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:09PM (#13654099) Homepage
    the RIAA's strategy.

    1. Entertainment mega-corps still win big because they strike fear into the hearts of consumers. The message is simple, "don't steal our music." The underlying assumptions that many /.'ers dislike are strongly reinforced. What's worse is a dissenting view can easily be positioned as at least disreputable behavior if not outright criminal activity.

    2. It looks to me like they lost on procedure, not so much on the theft issue. The woman's got to pay anyway and that works out great for the RIAA.

    3. No one cares that they are going after minors. The US has a criminal courts system for them too. Again, the underlying assumptions about the control of the music are not even on the table.

    I really don't see how anything positive comes out of this story.
  • by timmarhy ( 659436 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:09PM (#13654100)
    the needs to come where the cost of defending your rights in court isn't trumpted by the fact you can't afford it. you can bet your ass if the RIAA found a multi millionare on limewire swapping music the won't proceed, since he won't just fold.
  • by SlayerofGods ( 682938 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:14PM (#13654136)
    The case was dismissed aginst the mother with prejudice but they're still free to refile and sue the child if they want.
    From what I can make out with my legal knowledge (which is more then person that wrote the summary I'd say but I'm not a lawyer) here's what really happend.
    They sued the mom, who had the ISP account.
    They found out that it was really the daugther who was the sharer.
    They asked for the case to be dismissed aginst the mom.
    They then asked for the case to be changed to the daugher after the judge issued his judgment.
    The judge said nope and did what they asked and dismissed the case.
    So basicly I think this was a mistake on the lawyers part for asking the case to be dismissed before they got the defendent changed.
    This is more of a technicality win then a real win aginst the RIAA
  • At What Point? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by DumbSwede ( 521261 ) <slashdotbin@hotmail.com> on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:19PM (#13654183) Homepage Journal
    At what point does the RIAA become so seemingly repugnant by trying to sue 13 year old girls, that the very piracy they were trying to discourage becomes a common form of political dissent and protest?
  • Guardian ad Litem (Score:3, Informative)

    by unixfan ( 571579 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:28PM (#13654259) Homepage
    I'm a Guardian ad Litem, and at least in Florida I'm not allowed to do anything except observe. I cannot recommend, suggest or direct any child or adult. What I can and do is give recommendations to the judge.

    The judge I work for told me that if anyone gives me a hard time, they are giving HIM a hard time and to let him know immediately. In other words he's not at least interested in having anyone mess with his GAL's. I can see why the judge did not grant it.

    Indeed a GAL is protected from lawsuits at least in Florida.

    The RIAA is one hapless bunch who will run themselves out of business as soon as any viable solutions comes up.
  • Collective funding? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Spy der Mann ( 805235 ) <spydermann.slash ... com minus distro> on Monday September 26, 2005 @05:33PM (#13654308) Homepage Journal
    Guys, I thought of an idea. How about donating to a special fund for "Victims of the RIAA" so the we can pay for the defendants' attorney fees? Something like "music taxes", but instead of paying the corporate monster, we'd help support the innocent victims of a corrupted system. This way, when a mother is told: "Pay us thousands of dollars, or see you in court!", we can tell her: "Don't settle! We'll pay for the legal expenses!"

    Is there already such site?
    • by darnok ( 650458 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @09:05PM (#13655527)
      If this is going to attract MY money, I'd like the group (EFF?) to select a (probably small) number of test cases to contest, rather than have a free-for-all system where everybody signs up to be defended against Sony et al.

      Why? I've got no problem with the RIAA (and its equivalents worldwide) suing people for:
      - massive copyright infringement involving zillions of songs and zillions of copies
      - selling illegal copies of infringing content

      On the other hand, I've got a big problem if/when the *AA goes after:
      - 13 year old kids, and by proxy, their parents (who generally have little to no idea that things such as Limewire even exist)
      - people who download a couple of songs for their own personal use i.e. not loads of stuff, and not to distribute further
      - people who download copies of songs they've already purchased on CD, but which they can't copy to e.g. their iPod because of copy protection restrictions on the CD
      - people who download a TV show which has already been shown on non-subscription services
      - people who "pirate" content that is so old that common sense says it should've been out of copyright years ago (e.g. old "I Love Lucy" episodes). The concept that copyright can effectively be extended forever just defies common sense, particularly when you see Hollywood waiting for vintage content to become public domain, then releasing "their" take on it and claiming copyright protection on intellectual content that someone else invented 50+ years ago
      - suing people for e.g. $100k per downloaded song, on some bogus principle that they COULD have given it to the 20,000 others. In that case, the onus should be on the suing party to come up with the list of 20,000 others, with verifiable documentation to support it
  • by Kjella ( 173770 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @06:18PM (#13654598) Homepage
    The mom was sued as the owner of the ISP account. During discovery, everything points to the daughter so they drop the charges against mom with prejudice. Since they have made a "best effort" to sue the right person, each side pays court costs. I think the judge was a little pissed at the mum for making the court go through formal motions just to establish this, and feels she should have simply informed them of the circumstances.

    The other motion was to continue prosecution against her child as the same case. The court basicly said "That's just as much work as starting a new case, you'll need new court reservations, a Guardian Ad Litem = lawyer to represent the child (as the mother and child could have conflicting interests in this case) and so on anyway, and it's not cheaper either". The RIAA wanted to sue a 13yo girl. They will probably refile to sue a 13yo girl, because it was the mother's case that was "dismissed with prejudice". If they are really nasty, they will completely refuse to settle the second case just to make an example out of them. How this is a victory eludes me.

    Kjella
  • Legal !== Ethical (Score:3, Insightful)

    by groovemaneuver ( 539260 ) <groovemaneuverNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Monday September 26, 2005 @07:13PM (#13654971)

    I think it's important to keep sight of the fact that what is legal is not necessarily ethical (and vice versa). While it is perfectly legal for the RIAA to sue a single mom or her children, it seems rather sketchy in the ethics department.

    I don't think that it is ethical to infringe on copyrights, and I doubt most people would disagree. At the same time, I think it's also unethical that an organization like the RIAA can pretend to be acting on behalf of artists that they routinely abuse. I think people are really starting to understand that buying albums doesn't really support the artists ($.01 - $.03 dollars to the artist vs. $12-$25 to the RIAA and retailers). Because so much money goes to this seemingly ethically devoid entity, people have no conscience dilemmas when downloading.

    Every artist signing a record deal is gambling: chances are they're going to lose, but every once in a while someone makes it big. I'm much happier as a consumer and music fan when I purchase music directly from an artist. F*ck the RIAA.

  • by skingers6894 ( 816110 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @07:58PM (#13655217)
    The RIAA are attempting to contain the uncontainable - and it's their own fault.

    No matter what they like to say many, many people do not believe that copyright infringement is the same as theft.

    Combine this with a media format that can be copied in seconds and you have a problem.

    How did the poor recording industry end up in this mess? Greed and shortsightedness.

    They had a format that could not be copied easily. Vinyl was the clearly superior sounding format of the day. For music lovers a tape copy simply would not do. People could not afford to create their own records. Even the inferior tape copies could only be created from the vinyl in actual time. So people bought the original. They weren't buying the "rights to the song", they were buying the media!

    Enter the CD. Better sound quality but people did not have the capability to copy it perfectly - at first. The CD came out at a price that was a PREMIUM over vinyl. Why? Because the format was BETTER QUALITY, we were told. The recording industry was happy to be selling "media format" when it suited them. We the consumers were told that the price would drop as the production costs of CDs came down. Well, I can produce a CD for about 25 cents in my house now. So why am I paying at least 50 times the price that I could produce the thing for? Where is the price reduction that was promised? It never came.

    So now the RIAA have a problem. The media is now worth squat and we can make our own perfect copies for virtually nothing. Plan B - copyright violation and suing 13 year olds.

    Great idea guys, sue your user base. Worse still, sue the user base who couldn't afford to buy the stuff now anyway but may be inclined to in the future IF you hadn't completely soured their musical experience when they were young by taking them to court for listening to Jay-Z.

    Get a clue. Reduce your prices. Encourage artists to make money from concerts (wow, imagine, performers, performing!). Find a superior format again and make it worth buying. You are trying to contain a product that can be perfectly reproduced in seconds, from anywhere in the world, to anywhere in the world, for free. People find it hard to believe it's stealing. Good luck with your business.

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