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Software Your Rights Online

Flash EULA Doesn't Fit the Times 574

cphoenix writes "The latest Flash player license seems to forbid downloading their player onto a laptop. From the License: "you may not use the Software on any non-PC product or any embedded or device versions of the above operating systems, including, but not limited to, mobile devices, internet appliances, set top boxes (STB), handhelds, PDAs, phones, web pads, tablets, game consoles, TVs, DVDs, gaming machines, home automation systems, kiosks or any other consumer electronics devices or mobile/cable/satellite/television or closed system based service." This comes at a time when laptops are outselling desktops. And to add insult to injury, "You agree that Macromedia may audit your use of the Software ... In the event that such audit reveals any use of the Software by you other than in full compliance with the terms of this Agreement, you shall reimburse Macromedia for all reasonable expenses related to such audit."
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Flash EULA Doesn't Fit the Times

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  • by nebaz ( 453974 ) * on Monday August 29, 2005 @11:31PM (#13433068)
    I don't know if it explictly bans laptops.

    The previous section of the EULA says (bolded emphasis mine)
    You may install and use the Software on a single desktop computer that
    has a Windows PC operating system (including desktop PC versions of Windows
    95, 98, 2000, NT, ME and XP (Home and Professional), a Macintosh desktop operating
    system, a Linux desktop operating system, or a Solaris desktop operating
    system;


    So at first glance, it does appear to be "desktop" machines, but then look at the next section.

    you may not use the Software on any non-PC product or any embedded or device
    versions of the above operating systems, including...closed system based service


    This seems pretty clear that they mean specialized versions of any of the above OS's, like an XBox or
    other console, or "closed system" (which appears at the end above). True, they do mention the word
    "mobile device" in the list of things after the "including", but it also says "non-PC product, or any
    embedded or device versions" of the OS. Is there any difference at all between laptop and desktop versions
    of Windows XP, for example? If they really had meant to ban laptops, they would have had the word "laptop"
    in the list of devices that are explicitly excluded.

    Personally, I'm not a lawyer, but the interpretation of "no laptops" seems to be a very literal interpretation,
    and I know this was kind of done as a "look how stupid this company is" attitude, but I don't think
    a) a court would interpret this to mean "no laptops" or that b) Macromedia would take that stupid an interpretation
    of the agreement.

    Having said all that, companies have surprised me in the past, however.
    • by 110010001000 ( 697113 ) on Monday August 29, 2005 @11:35PM (#13433088) Homepage Journal
      Please don't let facts and logic creep in here. What do you think you are doing? We need ad revenue- have you seen how LNUX is doing lately? The best way to increase revenue is to post "controversial" non-stories that will quickly bring out the knee-jerk slashbots out of the woodwork.
    • by lightyear4 ( 852813 ) on Monday August 29, 2005 @11:39PM (#13433108)
      Of COURSE the EULA doesnt intend to exclude laptops. That would be, very simply put, utterly idiotic. As instinct and facts [com.com] suggest that laptops outsell desktops, it would be beyond foolish to interpret the EULA in this manner; it would exclude a fast growing majority of computer users. Surely some poor paper pushing paralegal just wasnt thinking.
      • by Vo0k ( 760020 )
        On the other hand, Missouri law doesn't intend to ban all motor boats when it says any motor device at least partially immersed in water should be removed from water as fast as possible. Which doesn't mean you can't be fined by overzealous Police officer for leaving your boat floating. Simply, too general law, by accident embraces areas it didn't intend to.
      • by Spruitje ( 15331 ) <ansonr&spruitje,org> on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @02:10AM (#13433725) Homepage

        Of COURSE the EULA doesnt intend to exclude laptops. That would be, very simply put, utterly idiotic. As instinct and facts [com.com] suggest that laptops outsell desktops, it would be beyond foolish to interpret the EULA in this manner; it would exclude a fast growing majority of computer users. Surely some poor paper pushing paralegal just wasnt thinking.


        I expect that this EULA is not valid in the EU again.
        So, no problem.
        • by ajs318 ( 655362 ) <sd_resp2NO@SPAMearthshod.co.uk> on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @03:04AM (#13433873)
          It's certainly not valid in the UK, since it would force you to sign away certain rights which the Law of the Land says you cannot sign away. These include the right not to be physically attacked {if you ask someone to punch you in the face, and they do so, they can still be prosecuted for assault}, the right to say no to sexual intercourse {If you do not want to have sex with your husband, but he tries it on anyway, he has committed rape}, and certain consumer protections.

          All this, however, is certainly good ammo for this project [sourceforge.net].
          • by Darkman, Walkin Dude ( 707389 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @04:46AM (#13434181) Homepage

            Whoa, the flash EULA gives them the right to beat you and sexually assault you? Thats really taking DRM to the next level; I fully expect the RIAA to reintroduce indentured servitude after this bold move on the part of Macromedia.

    • by redsoxunixgeek ( 893384 ) on Monday August 29, 2005 @11:53PM (#13433187) Homepage
      So i guess the sad ending to this story is that 1. Someone took the time to read the EULA amd 2. Read that much into it.
    • by Propagandhi ( 570791 ) on Monday August 29, 2005 @11:57PM (#13433209) Journal
      While the submitter's assertion that the EULA forbids use of Flash on laptops does seem to be a little off-base, this EULA does seem to be a little restrictive (although that's nothing new).

      Honestly, I hate watching programs (like Flash) become so commonplace that even when the EULA screws the consumer they continue to be used, simply because they're now so prevalent. If some kind of reasonably open standard were in use instead of Flash we would be able to use it on our mobile devices (PSPs, etc) and perhaps even correct some of the bugs (most flash ads still manage to run my CPU usage up to "99%" on Windows XP).

      Honestly, in its present state, I don't think there's any way Flash would become as prevelant as it is. But thanks to the lack of alternatives when it was initially released it has now thoroughly entrenched itself (just like a dozen other common programs)...

      Sucks, doesn't it?
      • by nate nice ( 672391 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @12:53AM (#13433450) Journal
        Software is a winner take all game. Once you create the technology and market it well, you dominate nearly without competition and assume ridiculous amount of money. I agree a well planned and executed business/technology plan that relies on open standards, both used and created by you, would ultimately lead to greater assumptions of money, and morality. It can create greater hazard though.
        • Software is a winner take all game.

          Closed source software is a winner take all game.

          Open source software can sometimes avoid this fate
          by offering its product for free and being able to produce product without requiring a profit.

          Because of this, it can't be forced out of business the way closed source systems can, and it can effectively provide competition even when other companies can't.

          I don't think that businesses are going to voluntarily open their standards. If we want open standards, we're going to hav
      • Also of interest (Score:5, Insightful)

        by JavaRob ( 28971 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @01:09AM (#13433493) Homepage Journal
        This part caught my eye... is this legal?
        You shall not use the Software to develop any software or other technology having the same primary function as the Software, including but not limited to using the Software in any development or test procedure that seeks to develop like software or other technology, or to determine if such software or other technology performs in a similar manner as the Software.

        That's forbidding *black-box* reverse-engineering. Sure, no decompiling, etc... but they're saying that if you use the software as intended, to run a Flash file, but you're keeping track of what it looks like, you're violating their agreement. Wow.

        This part is neat, too:
        You may not make or distribute copies of the Software, or electronically transfer the Software from one computer to another or over a network.

        Obviously that first part sucks if you want to, say, backup your computer, make a "base install" ghost, install Flash onto all corporate computers, etc.. But look closely at the second part: when you download the installer, you are already breaking their EULA. Sweet. And if they audit you ("Did you download this? You're in the server logs. By the way, Macromedia pays me $2,000 an hour."), you have to pay them for the privilege.

        Man, those lawyers are really earning their keep.

        I think we should *all* write concerned letters to Macromedia, asking for an in-writing caveat to the license indicating that we are indeed allowed to download the Flash player from their server, to our computer, over a network. This stuff is amazing. Those lawyers must be working overtime.
        • Re:Also of interest (Score:3, Interesting)

          by jonwil ( 467024 )
          Better yet, why doesnt someone just reverse engineer the SWF file format (if it hasnt been already done) and write a flash player without this crap (not to mention some missing features like being able to disable sound in flash files except where you specifically turn it on)
      • by xander2032 ( 719016 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @01:30AM (#13433566)
        You don't actually need flash, sure some sites are all flash based, but hey, that's their problem!

        I don't run flash here. It's actually quite nice. I don't have to be bothered by those annoying flash based ads.

        If someone is stupid enough to put so much flash material into their site so that it's unusable without a flash plug-in, then that's their problem. I personally avoid sites like that.

        That's just poor web design in my opinion.
    • It certainly bans mine ...

      " web pads, tablets, game consoles,"

      I just bought a Toshiba Tecra M4 Tablet PC, and according to this, I can't use it. The wording is quite clear.

  • by ackthpt ( 218170 ) * on Monday August 29, 2005 @11:31PM (#13433071) Homepage Journal
    at a time when laptops are outselling desktops [...] you shall reimburse Macromedia for all reasonable expenses related to such audit."

    Hello! New business model!

    "Hello, Dewey, Cheatem & Howe Attorneys at Law"

  • by Com2Kid ( 142006 ) <com2kidSPAMLESS@gmail.com> on Monday August 29, 2005 @11:32PM (#13433074) Homepage Journal
    News flash:

    • non-PC product or any embedded or device versions ...


    Laptops are not "non-PC" nor are they embedded or device versions of yada yada yada.
    • Exactly. A laptop is a PC, just a mobile PC.

      personal computer
      n. (Abbr. PC)

      A computer built around a microprocessor for use by an individual, as in an office or at home or school.

      A laptop sure as hell fits that definition. I don't see this being a problem in a court of law.
      • Based on that definition, a PDA would be considered a "personal computer", which means that they effectively backed themselves into a hole. Even with the "non-embedded devices" clause, it could still be considered restricting the rights of the user.

        Then again, I tend to prefer the good-ol' GPL for software.

        • by Kadin2048 ( 468275 ) <slashdot...kadin@@@xoxy...net> on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @12:41AM (#13433408) Homepage Journal
          Where they backed themselves into a hole was by using the term "PC" in a contract.

          What is a PC? The computer I'm typing this at, which is sitting in my bedroom, is my Personal Computer. However, it is a Macintosh. If I told some people this was "a PC," they'd probably say "no it isn't! That's a Mac!" So we have one definition, probably different than the one they mean.

          Someone being particularly pedantic about the definition might think to themselves ... "well, this is my home-office computer. It's not really my personal computer," and believe themselves to be excluded by the EULA.

          Hopefully they resolved this point earlier in the contract (in the aptly named 'Definitions' section) by defining what "PC" means within the EULA. However if they didn't, then they're terribly stupid, because as often as it gets used, the term PC has multiple meanings depending on usage and context which can be very different in fact.
    • Laptops, while perhaps PCs, also aren't desktops (from an earlier poster's RTFE). I haven't looked at EULA nor do I intend to -- my point: the EULA is ambiguous and very little out there makes a lawyer's eye spin up dollar signs faster than ambiguity.
  • by alfrin ( 858861 ) on Monday August 29, 2005 @11:32PM (#13433076)
    and what is he smoking? Last time I checked a laptop IS a PC. By mobile they obviosly are talking about phones, pdas, and such. Macromedia isn't stupid enough to kill a majority of the market for nothing.
    • and why would they have any say in how you use it?

      no really, tell me. i'm quite interested in how they still retain control of it when it's running on other people's computers.

      why is it their business whether you run it on your wrist watch or your toaster? what are they losing?

      what are you losing.

      show me the logic.
      • by bluephone ( 200451 ) <greyNO@SPAMburntelectrons.org> on Monday August 29, 2005 @11:48PM (#13433149) Homepage Journal
        Because in closed-service systems, they want to be able to separately license the software to the service providers, liek MS or content providers. If they allowed YOU to put it there, then those content providers will skip the fee.
        • actually it is quite easy to get around that.

          just make sure commercial ventures (businesses) pay money for it and let the end users do with it what they like. that way, they can be greedy while the little people have a tiny bit more freedom.
      • In order to run it on your watch or your toaster, you would either need to upgrade your watch or toaster to an x86 and have either Windows95-XP (not including WinCE or NTe) or Linux installed on it.

        Otherwise you'd need to figure out a way to make the Shockwave binary run on the foreign hardware/OS. This is what they are trying to prevent. They don't want you to decompile the system. They want to license the source code to embedded systems integrators who will perform the porting for Original Equipment Ma
    • It doesn't say that because it's a PC it's fine. It says you may not use it for any non-PC purpose OR (long list here)

      Personally, even if they didn't care about laptops, that's so close to prohibiting/actually prohibits laptops, that I really wouldn't want to argue it in court... especially if I agree to pay THEIR legal fees.
    • I'm scuttlemonkey and so is my wife!
    • by ScuttleMonkey ( 55 ) <`gro.todhsals' `ta' `yeknomelttucs'> on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @12:00AM (#13433224) Homepage
      Since you worded your question so politely I thought that I would take a moment to make my first registered post in many years of reading Slashdot. There are a couple of things that I would like to address regarding this and many other questions like it.

      First, the wording of an individual news post and the slant/position that the post takes does not necessarily reflect my views and opinions (nor that of anyone else associated with the administration of Slashdot). The submission is from a reader just like you who decided to take the time to share something that they felt was newsworthy and put their own particular spin on in. I may have editorial control but I am a pretty firm believer in anti-censorship so I try to keep the submissions general 'look and feel' the same. This means that the wording or particular approach to a headline is that of the authors and usually the author (because they took the time to read/submit it) knows more about the subject material than I would anyway.

      Second, the topics that I try to post are usually ones that I feel would interest or impact the open source/linux/IT/geek/etc population as a whole. Some are more relavent for your interests than others as I try to keep the topics spread out over time. That being said, the article by itself may not have the strength to stand on its own but I usually hope that the underlying topic/issue is one that will generate a meaningful discussion. This is one of the many things (imho) that makes Slashdot what it is. Being able to pontificate on any/all subjects and get a meaningful response from other (generally) smart people as opposed to most of our daily lives can be a welcome release, even for those trolls who no doubt will flame this reponse into oblivion. :)

      Getting back to the article, what I had hoped would be addressed (while I agree with you there is very little chance that Macromedia would ever go after the laptop market, that would be suicidal) is the fact that they expressly outlaw many devices that could "benfit/use" flash. While many feel that flash is not a helpful tool there are usefull applications. In addition to this the line between a "PC/Laptop" and that of a PDA or Handheld of some sort is becoming very blurry (ala PSP, Ipaq, etc) so where are they "allowed" to draw the line?

      Well, enough of my soapbox, just wanted to get a few things that have been nagging at me over the last couple weeks out in the open. Flame away!

      Best Regards,

      SM
      • Microsoft is helping draw this line. Linux, on the other hand, is not.

        Microsoft quite clearly makes operating systems targetted at very specific niches. Their mainline Windows OS is targetted at desktop PC users (including laptops). Their server line of Windows OS is targetted at servers, and from the Macromedia EULA, it seems that these should not support Flash. They have their two embedded lines with WinCE and WinNTe which are also not supported under this EULA. From the main branch of the Windows OS
      • Wow.

        A Slashdot admin-on-high is responding to a direct concern from a mere peon! This almost never happens.

        Thank you ScuttleMonkey, and may all slashdot admins be like this from now until eternity.
      • by AaronLawrence ( 600990 ) * on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @12:33AM (#13433371)
        Thanks for responding, SM. I feel the submission might not be as interesting as you thought, but I think your decision making process is reasonable and useful, and I don't think Slashdot editors need to be so constantly slammed. So, hang in there :)
      • by Anonymous Coward
        Since you worded your question so politely I thought that I would take a moment to make my first registered post in many years of reading Slashdot.
        but after all that, you still haven't answered the question... what were you smoking? ;)
      • by Malor ( 3658 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @01:24AM (#13433552) Journal
        Thanks for posting your thoughts on how to be an editor. I disagree with them, and I'm going to tell you why (of course), but it was nice of you to take the time to post them. It's *extremely* difficult to have a conversation ABOUT slashdot ON slashdot; this website is probably the least-reachable and most insulated from its users of any I read. It used to be my homepage, and I used to be a subscriber; neither of these are true any longer.

        First, this particular article is fine. The writeup may be wrong, but it also may be right. It's arguable, so it's a good post. My criticism isn't pointed at this specific submission, but rather many others.... a pattern, not a specific incident.

        I think, as an editor, you should be using your brain. That means... read the submitted article(s), and make sure the blurb is actually correct. You're an editor. If you're just passing through things verbatim, without even checking them, you're not editing. I'm not sure what you'd call that process, but I'm sure 'editing' is the wrong word.

        I think you guys have a responsibility to be sure that the blurbs on Slashdot are more or less correct. I don't mean perfect. But it is very obvious, sometimes, that the editor who posted a given article didn't even bother to READ or THINK about it in any way, shape, or form. Your supposition that the submitter knows more than you do is WRONG. You should be supposing exactly the opposite... assume they are idiots until they prove othrwise. You'll be right a lot more often than you'll be wrong.

        You also, I think, have a responsibility to pass through the original meaning of someone's post, and to correct it if the original submitter complains. I've seen at least one case where the submitter was furious, because the editor (I think it was Michael) removed a word or two, and completely changed the meaning of what he or she had written. It made it look like the submitter was arguing an exceptionally stupid position, and it was never corrected.

        Finally, and this is the reason I stopped subscribing and switched my homepage, Slashdot needs to come up with some kind or mirroring system. The Slashdot effect isn't as bad as it used to be, but it's still a deliberate denial of service when it's pointed at small sites. At the VERY least, you should be getting the site preloaded into Coral, and monitoring the remote webserver... if it chokes, then swap the main links to the Coral cache to give the poor sap time to recover. You have a responsibility with where you aim your readership, and all I have ever seen is weaseling and moaning about how it's a hard problem. And in all the years I've been reading this site ... almost since the very start (I got an account quite late) ... that has never changed. It was crap then and it's REALLY crap now, with Coral having solved 99% of the problem for you already.

        If and when you guys come up with a system to be sure that you don't take out small sites more than briefly, and when you're showing some better editorial abilities, I'll cheerfully subscribe again. And yes, I realize I'm just one guy, and it'd be like twenty bucks a year. But right now, I am just barely hanging on here... very, very nearly ready to give up on the site completely. I don't see the quality of posts here anymore, and haven't for years. I am morally certain the reason you're not attracting as many smart posters is because you're posting stupid articles. If you guys use your brains, and expect the same of your submitters, then I believe the posters will, over time, do likewise.

        Make the stories smarter, and expect intelligent behavior from your editors. The readership will follow.
        • by pchan- ( 118053 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @02:25AM (#13433785) Journal
          Okay, I'm going to do it. I'm going to be one of those people that complains about Slashdot. I'm going to hate myself in the morning.

          The parent poster brings up good points, and I hope the Slashdot ops will take a look. If you're going to be lazy about it, at least implement this technical solution: put a "submitter is on crack" button on each article. If that button gets pushed by a million people, for fuck's sake at least go back and review the story. Or article moderation, but that's much more work.

          Please, let's stop the misleading, sensationalist headlines ("Modified Prius Gets 250 MPG"), as well as poorly worded, often factually inaccurate summaries (see this story for reference). They demean us all.

          Thanks for your time.
        • by Pieroxy ( 222434 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @03:27AM (#13433913) Homepage
          100% on spot. I, too, will log in to have a word at it.

          The most deceiving thing right now on slashdot is that most of the stories are worded in a way that just discredits it as a whole. How many times have I clicked the "Read More" button thinking "Is that true?", only to find out it wasn't by reading the two modded up posts on top. Slashdot discussions are not about the story anymore, they are much too often about correcting it. And the fact that people don't RTFA is... a fact. This is how people behave, and you will not change it. So just having a heavily distorted story helps only to get stupid flame wars about nonexistent issues.

          You shall serve news instead of people's opinions, at least that's what the "News for Nerds, Stuff That Matters" is leading to. And to serve news, as the parent says, you have to do some editing/checking.
      • by LnxAddct ( 679316 ) <sgk25@drexel.edu> on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @01:31AM (#13433572)
        Wow, excellent post. I wish /. editors would comment more often, especially if they are all that insightful. Honestly it sometime feels like you guys try not to be a part of the community, maybe it is so you can't influence the story or comments in any way. I think a large chunk of Slashdot would not only appreciate to hear from the editors more often, but would also benfit from it. One more thing, a lot of posters flame you guys to no end, silence on your part (albeit it is taking the higher ground) does nothing to help it. I was so impressed with your post that I made you a friend, and I can only hope that you, CmdrTaco, etc... will start posting regularly. The last time CmdrTaco posted a comment I think was when he proposed to his wife years ago (or actually it may have been when he asked about satellite internet).
        Regards,
        Steve
    • You don't consider a laptop for be a mobile device?
  • Flash sucks anyway (Score:3, Insightful)

    by HermanAB ( 661181 ) on Monday August 29, 2005 @11:34PM (#13433084)
    so don't use it.

    Hopefully Flash will eventually go the way of the tag.
    • by Flounder ( 42112 ) on Monday August 29, 2005 @11:41PM (#13433118)
      Yeah! Screw Java, JavaScript, DHTML, CSS and HTML! If I can't read it with Emacs/Vi/NotePad, it's worthless!
      • unlike "Java, JavaScript, DHTML, CSS and HTML", flash is a proprietary non-open standard. you or someone else cannot write an open source flash compatible player/plugin. unlike the ones you mentioned.

      • JavaScript, DHTML, CSS and HTML! If I can't read it with Emacs/Vi/NotePad, it's worthless!

        I don't know what versions of the above editors you have installed, but I can quite easily read all of those text files with any of the above editors (with the possible exception of Notepad, haven't tried with Wine just yet)
    • Good advice. I have always found flash to be especially irritating. Now, with FlashBlock [mozdev.org], I get the best of both worlds. I have it installed, in case I need it for whatever reason, but it is blocked from my sight by default, which is the way I like it.

      I still had to agree to the license agreement, but wtf. I don't have a laptop anymore, so I think I'm safe :)
    • Flash doesn't suck (Score:5, Insightful)

      by spoco2 ( 322835 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @12:09AM (#13433276)
      it's the poor usage of it that can indeed suck.

      Flash itself is fine and dandy, and allows a lot of functionality within a browser that wouldn't otherwise be there.

      It's platform independant and allows us (ie. who I'm working for) to code a very nice application that can be distributed within companies with no extra software needing to be installed on their pcs.

      Bad uses of nice software does not bad software make.
  • Big fucking deal (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mnemonic_ ( 164550 ) <jamec@u m i ch.edu> on Monday August 29, 2005 @11:37PM (#13433096) Homepage Journal
    So Macromedia fucked up their EULA. Yes, it's funny. No, no one's going to get sued. Macromedia will fix it in 3 weeks and life will go on.
    • Yes, surely it's beneath all of us to comment on this issue.
    • Indeed. I was just at seminar/sales pitch for Studio 8 and they're promoting Flash more as a platform than just an authoring tool. They are actually trying to get more players for mobile devices so this is all just lawyer speak. Still, the languge in most EULAs is disturbing and off-putting so I hope they change it soon.
  • Does anyone know why they would bother to change the license to exclude these devices anyway?

    My personal guess is that this is aimed at getting some money out of the whole "next generation cellphone multimedia content" thing.

    They most likely just want to make sure they can charge the mobile providers if (when) they start rolling that kind of thing out.
  • The thing about banning laptops is just silly and not at all the intention of the agreement, as anyone can see from reading the text. Nor would any reasonable individual interpret it as such, but I am rather surprised by the ban on mobile devices/game machines/PDA's/Can Openers, and etcetera anyway

    It would seem that they would want to get their player on as many platforms as they possibly could. I guess possibly they want to limit the range of devices to those which they have explicitly designed and tes

  • non pc ? (Score:2, Funny)

    well why did they even make a version for my g5 If it's illegal to run it on non-PCs.
  • by nmb3000 ( 741169 ) on Monday August 29, 2005 @11:42PM (#13433121) Journal
    Somebody actually read all that crap before clicking OK?

    Maybe somebody is hoping [slashdot.org]?
  • by mikechambers ( 642634 ) on Monday August 29, 2005 @11:43PM (#13433123)
    You can install the player on laptops.

    mike chambers

    mesh@macromedia.com
    • by buckhead_buddy ( 186384 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @12:13AM (#13433288)
      Mike Chambers of macromedia wrote:
      You can install the player on laptops.
      Technically, this doesn't appear to be a problem, but legally, that's another story.

      My friend's Windows XP Tablet edition is specifically listed as a platform that's in violation of the agreement as well as requiring an edition of Microsoft Windows that's not in the approved operating system list.

      Being a doctor, this agreement to allow Macromedia to audit his machine puts him in a precarious legal position over the privacy agreements with patients, whether you actually carry out such an audit or not.

      • Ah, but if your friend installs Flash on his tablet, he's not agreeing to the EULA, and therefore isn't allowing Macromedia to audit his machine. So he's fine! Of course, he's not legally allowed to install it, but they're not legally allowed to find out either.
    • by ebrandsberg ( 75344 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @12:14AM (#13433295)
      First off, I believe you should put your title of General Counsel below your name, as you MUST be general counsel to provide legal advice to people outside of the company relating to your products (and yes, I did Google you and know your title). To quote the license:

      You may install and use the Software on a single desktop computer that has a Windows PC operating system (including desktop PC versions of Windows 95, 98, 2000, NT, ME and XP (Home and Professional), a Macintosh desktop operating system, a Linux desktop operating system, or a Solaris desktop operating system; provided, however, that, notwithstanding anything contrary contained herein, you may not use the Software on any non-PC product or any embedded or device versions of the above operating systems, including, but not limited to, mobile devices, internet appliances, set top boxes (STB), handhelds, PDAs, phones, web pads, tablets, game consoles, TVs, DVDs, gaming machines, home automation systems, kiosks or any other consumer electronics devices or mobile/cable/satellite/television or closed system based service. A license for the Software may not be shared, installed or used concurrently on different computers.

      Now, I believe that many laptops are also tablet PC's now (convertible) and are ALSO mobile devices (I would consider anything with a battery and weighing less than 20 pounds to be mobile realistically), Linux runs on game consoles, people play games on most PC's now (so what is a gaming pc), etc. As such, your statement is a) probably in violation of your companie's own policies on making public statements as an empoloyee of the company about legal issues relating to the company and b) totally out of whack of what the license itself says. If you wish to provide good flash developer relations for Macromedia, I suggest having your lawyers revise the license ASAP to provide clarification, as this opens up pretty much everybody to be in violation of the license.

      I'm also going to call out another provision of the license:

      You may not make or distribute copies of the Software, or electronically transfer the Software from one computer to another or over a network.

      I would consider downloading this software from your very own servers (which are computers on a network after all) a violation of this provision if taken literally, and as such, anybody that even HAS a copy of it they downloaded would be in violation.
    • Or other Unix-like operating systems that aren't Linux or Solaris? Nice of them to cut us out of the loop, even though we run flash on the same desktops as Linux and Solaris.
  • Aren't there more than enough real legal issues to worry about without having to make up far-fetched silliness like this?
  • The EULA does not mention laptops or anything similar to laptops (closest would be handtops but even the tiniest PC computers by Sharp and Sony are still called "sub-notebooks").
  • So this means I can't install Flash on my Xbox or PS2, both of which run Linux?

    Not that I actually care, since I hate flash anyways.
  • by NotQuiteReal ( 608241 ) on Monday August 29, 2005 @11:48PM (#13433147) Journal
    ... you shall reimburse Macromedia for all reasonable expenses related to such audit.

    If they give away millions of copies for free, legally speaking, wouldn't that be a good argument for them to NOT BOTHER auditing any other use?

    Don't they make money selling the authoring tools, not the clients?

    Seems like the correct amount for reasonable expenses is zero.

  • by Ben Jackson ( 30284 ) on Monday August 29, 2005 @11:48PM (#13433151) Homepage
    Great, I never wanted to install Flash, and finally that's just what is required by the EULA.
  • Audit (Score:2, Insightful)

    by H0D_G ( 894033 )
    I think that the real issue here is not the laptop thing but the audit- how will they audit you?
  • by solios ( 53048 )
    I've hated that shit since 1998 - socially, it drove me into being one of few artists in a geek community, for the simple fact that I value information clarity and ease of navigation as opposed to bloated whiz-bang billshit... the sort of stuff the kids I went to artskool with are conditioned to be all about, almost to a pavlovian level. It and Macromedia have fueled many an argument - greed and moneyhats and buzzwords on one side, legibility and clarity on the other.

    Doesn't help that flash runs like shit
  • The only justification is for some web games. Maybe.
  • Macromedia is going the way of the dodo.
  • What do you need Flash for, anyway? There's a reason the tag died an ugly death. 90-99% of flash usage is for animated distracting advertising, so why the fuck add epilepsy to your web browsing experience?


  • ...require the sites which depend upon Flash to notify users they cannot download Flash if they are using a device on the list [and this is because of a Flash policy].

    Visitors go away, counts go down, and those with Flash-based sites decide Flash-based restrictions suck and kick them to the curb.

    People seem to think bringing landsharks into problems are the way to solve them. Something most weenies seem to forget or haven't learned is: the best way to beat the system is to play by the system. trans
  • game consoles, TVs, DVDs, gaming machines

    Boy, this gets my goat.
    I'm sure they mean to say DVD players, however they screwed it up and said DVDs, which clearly refers to the medium, not the player.

    Why does this happen so much with DVD players? You don't hear people refer to a CD player as a CD, do you?

    You hear this enough in advertising, but you'd think Macromedia would know better.
  • The question I have (Score:3, Interesting)

    by phorm ( 591458 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @12:15AM (#13433299) Journal
    Is why they would want to restrict what you can use it for at all? You'd think that more popular = better image = better? I could understand restricting the dev kits but why wouldn't they want people to be able to play flash on non-PC devices?
  • Who cares? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Midnight Thunder ( 17205 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @12:20AM (#13433321) Homepage Journal
    Truth is what the submitter suggests is probably not the EULA's intent.

    On the other hand I would quite happily have a EULA on my computer targeted towards web developers: You may not run your CPU intensive, non-standard flash in my browser - if you can't do your site in HTML, I will quite happily avoid it.
  • Flash works (Score:3, Insightful)

    by opencity ( 582224 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @12:37AM (#13433389) Homepage
    On /. this will probably get modded Troll but ... Flash is great for certain things. Want to design a GUI quickly? Sure you Java guys can speed through some tight code, but for the rest of us who don't have time for the 'extend applet call-me-Ishmael' Java coder mindset (or if the client wants their simple calculator during this calender year) Flash will have you up and running in a day or two.

    Want to tell the client that their site will look the same across browsers without 2k of javascript and lingering uncertainty? Code for Flash 5, embed the fonts and cash the check.

    Need some quick dancing spaghetti at the top of the page? No problem and small too.

    Want to make a really annoying intro without a skip button? You have the power.

    All in all, a worthwhile tool.
  • by samj ( 115984 ) * <samj@samj.net> on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @06:01AM (#13434432) Homepage
    And this, people, is why we shouldn't be relying on proprietary formats. Just because we can use them today doesn't mean we can tomorrow.

"Being against torture ought to be sort of a multipartisan thing." -- Karl Lehenbauer, as amended by Jeff Daiell, a Libertarian

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