Wired Strongarms Subscribers? 492
yali writes "Wired has apparently been sinking to some rather low tactics with ex-subscribers. Namely, siccing a collections agency on them. If you let your subscription run out, you might get one of these. Nerds beware." From the article: "First came the usual letters warning McMillan, 36, that his subscription was up and that he wouldn't get any more copies of Wired unless he ponied up some cash. Then Wired's correspondence took a different turn. In May, McMillan received a letter from North Shore Agency, a leading debt-collection firm. The letter, headed 'Please Respond,' said he owed $12 for his Wired subscription."
That's it (Score:4, Funny)
Re:That's it (Score:3, Funny)
Re:That's it (Score:3, Funny)
Re:That's it (Score:4, Insightful)
"Bought a Bobbie's Bits product? Embarassed to cash the refund check? I'll pay you fifty cents on the dollar in cash for your refund cheque."
Then I'd take them into my bank by the hundred weight without a shred of self consciousness. Bring in one, you're a pervert. Bring in a thousand, you're a businessman.
Third party checks (Score:3, Informative)
How are you going to cash a check that's made out to another pervert?
I don't know about cheques (used in the United Kingdom), but checks (used in the United States) can have two endorsements on the back when presented to a bank; as long as the first matches "Pay to the order of" and the second matches the ID of the person presenting the check, it's negotiable as a "third party check". That's part of why you shouldn't endorse a check unless you'll immediately be handing it to a bank teller or cashier or
Re:Third party checks (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Third party checks (Score:3, Insightful)
They may need my business, but they certainly don't show any sign of needing my happiness. Every change that a bank has made in the last thirty years appears scrupulously designed to annoy, intimidate, or otherwise bully "ordinary" checking/savings account customers. Some apparent exceptions, e.g. the inventions of the ATM, online banking and bill payment, seem to incidentally be a convenience to the customer -- but their real purpo
Re:That's it (Score:2)
Re:That's it (Score:3, Informative)
Re:That's it (Score:2)
I have never had a subscription to any magazine renew automatically, paid for or otherwise. Normal operating procedure for magazines seems to be collect money first, renew later. Instead, they send multiple letters when you're down to about thre
Re:That's it (Score:5, Informative)
Basically, respond in writing and dispute the debt. Tell them not to contact you and to contact your lawyer. ALL collection agencies don't worry about letters like this (btw, send it return receipt requested). Just wait and they will contact you again. When they do, file suit in local court. They will literally end up owing you $1000 for a violation of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. If you want details look it up. (I'm not making this up, and it is true!)
If they report on your credit report that you owe the money and you don't, that's a violation of the Fair Credit Reporting Act, and if you can prove damages (like "I had perfect credit, and lost out on this chance because of one bad report"), you can collect a heck of a lot more.
IAAL... (Score:5, Informative)
The FDCPA, however, generally applies to third-party debt collectors. If I recall correctly, most people simply run afoul of the Act when they fail to include the required "This communication is an attempt to collect a debt. Any information obtained will be used for that purpose blah blah blah" language on the letter. Usually it's because companies/lawyers don't realize the law applies to them and they end up owing a $1000 fine per occurrence.
The FCRA is also a useful tool for consumers to make sure big companies don't bully them around, but at this hour I can't remember enough about it to really post anything resembling an educated comment. However, it's more complicated than the original poster suggests.
However, another very important set of resources available to consumers are state consumer protection laws. Generally you can find these on your state Attorney General's homepage, and there are detailed instructions for nonlawyers about your rights, the notice and filing requirements and deadlines, and pros and cons of filing a complaint with the AG versus filing on your own. Frequently they follow a similar model, and often involve a requirement that before filing suit for consumer protection violations, you provide a demand letter with 30 days' written notice and an opportunity to settle the claim without going to court.
If the question is not "someone says I owe them money and I don't think I do," but rather that "a magazine renewed my subscription without my consent and then attempted to bill me for it," it seems to me that your state AG's webpage would be a good place to start. Usually there are brochures. With pretty pictures.
[ And now for the standard disclaimer: Legal advice is given by an attorney duly admitted to practice law after confidentially and candidly hearing your version of the facts and applying a specialized analysis of the facts and relevant law. This, however, is a silly post on the Internets, and not legal advice. No attorney-client privilege is created with anyone as a result of this post. Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. If legal advice is what you want, go hire a competent lawyer. Don't ask slashdot. ]
Re:READ THIS SERIOUSLY!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree that you should not pay the collections agency in most situations. It is usually better to pay the company that you actually owe money to. However there are many cases where you no longer owe the money to the original lender. You in fact owe it to the collection agency as they bought the bad debt from the original lender for pennies on the dollar.
On top of this, neither will get the far past due debt "nixed" from your credit report, it will still be on the
Re:READ THIS SERIOUSLY!!! (Score:5, Informative)
1. Never pay the collection agency. Never, ever ever ever pay the collection agency. They may have bought the debt, but the fact remains that they are not your debtor (and the law so far has seemed to be on my side on this one, most of the time you can't just say, "you don't owe me anymore, now you owe Bruno over here...", unless you dot all of the right "i"'s and all the right "t"'s, which collection agencies never do.
2. Pull your credit reports and dispute EVERYTHING negative. Don't miss a single one, and watch your wording. Go for duplicate instances first, in the above scenario when the original debtor had the account, they probably reported it, then sold it to a collections agency, who in turn reported it. You aren't allowed to do that, and the FCRA spells it out. They also aren't allowed to re-report that account again, and are liable for damages if they do so.
3. Most collection agencies are lazy and out for a quick buck. 99% of all disputes will result in deletion from your report, because it requires effort on the part of the agency to verify the debt. Effort is too much work, so the mark will come off.
4. Be persistent. If it didn't come off the first time, try another tactic, and dispute it again. Don't give up until it is gone.
5. Pay the government first. This is a "well, duh" now, but it wasn't to me back then. Bankruptcy won't excempt you from debts to the government (Federal Student Loans, for example in my case), and unlike most collection agencies, the government isn't lazy.
6. Don't be intimidated by phone calls. Lump telemarketers and collection agencies in the same bucket, get callerid, and set up an asterisk server if you're so inclined. Don't hesitate to hang up on someone if you hear electrical silence for 1-2 seconds, and in fact, delay saying "Hello" when you first pick up, and listen. If you hear background noise, go ahead and answer. If you hear electrical silence like it is a calling machine waiting for you to anwer to connect you to a "rep", hang up immediately. Or simply don't answer calls from numbers you don't know, or are marked "PRIVATE" or "UNAVAILABLE", then let it roll to your answering machine or voicemail. If it is important, and it is a human being, you'll get the message. If you start getting threatening voicemails (did you set up asterisk?) save all of messages, and make a cd if you must. Tell them off, if they still keep calling, they've violated the law (don't remember which one).
7. Get a stamp made ($12 from Office Max) in red ink that says quite simply "Unsolicited Mail: Return to Sender." Take it with you every day to the mailbox. If it is junk mail, stamp. Collections Agency? Stamp. Be sure to stamp once over your name and address and a couple more for good measure elsewhere to make it legible, stick it all back in the mailbox and throw up the flag. After a while I'm sure you'll get to recognize what messages are from whom. You probably do already.
Wow. Uh...yeah. Never negotiate with terr^H^H^H^H collection agencies. Never never never never.
I don't care who sent them.
Re:READ THIS SERIOUSLY!!! (Score:4, Informative)
Go to a local credit union (NOT a bank), make sure it is one that is a member of the CO-OP Network [co-opnetwork.org] and participates in the CU Shared Branch program. This way CU ATM's nationwide will service you for free, and CU branches will help you nationwide. Start an account there, and after a month or two, start a secured credit card with a savings account attached. After a year or so of good payment history (buy gas on it instead of cash, pay it off immediately), they'll be willing to remove the security account and give you that money back, and probably even double your credit line at the same time. Keep using that card.
Get a car loan there (or move your existing loan to them), and continue rolling positive marks into your report. Perhaps you have a negative mark from your old loan institution. Start getting postives at the CU, then dispute the old mark.
Ditto for a house, if you can. Get everything into one place for easy (even automated) payments so you don't have to worry about writing checks. Credit Unions will bend over backwords to help repair or fix credit for its members, as the members are essentially the owners. A bank really couldn't care less about anything other than getting interest and fee dollars out of you.
Re:READ THIS SERIOUSLY!!! (Score:4, Informative)
Find out what the statute of limitations is for collecting debts in your state. Here, it is 7 years from the last time a payment was made on the account. Be careful about this, because some collectors are really sneaky, and let's say you owe $2000 for whatever from 6.5 years ago, and they sympathize and say "tell you what, just pay what you can, say $50...we'll work with you". BS. Next thing you know, you're being sued for the full amount because you've now reset that statute of limitations. Remember what i said about collection agencies? NEVER PAY THE COLLECTIONS AGNECIES. Period.
Once you're outside of that statute of limitations, don't look back. It sucks, if you have a soul at all you're going to have guilt associated with not paying a bill, but move on, and keep your nose clean going forward. Any attempt to pay that debt puts you on shaky legal ground. Better to leave it in the past, and odds are pretty good that if you're outside the statute of limitations, you're alos outside the period of which the negative mark associated with it can be legally posted (again, 7 years from last activity).
It appears they are... (Score:2, Funny)
Beware? (Score:2)
Re:Beware? (Score:5, Informative)
If you reply in writing that you don't believe that the debt is legit, as in they say you owe them for a mag subscription, but you never signed up for such, they have to stop pending further investigation. Usually, it ends here.
Know your rights, and don't be afraid to push back. Even if a collection agency is after you for legit debt, there are limits to what they are allowed to do.
This Wired thing, on the other hand, is bogus. It's just a "renew, please!" letter written to said vaguely legally threatening.
Tom
already violated. (Score:2)
His rights have already been violated because the debt is bogus.
How, exactly, do you think he's going to push back? He can complain here [gsa.gov] but the credit agency can lose a maximum of $500,000 for this fraud. Is he going to hire a lawyer over this? What lawyer is going to want work that will pay them a maximum of $1,000 for an individual's case? I'd
There's limits, but they just break the law. (Score:3, Interesting)
I had a credit card with $4,000 on it, from Citibank. It went default; rent was more important then this debt. I told them I intended to pay the debt but I would have to find work first.
They sent it to a collection agency and let me tell you, this guy was a fucking dipshit. He'd call four times a day, and every time I'd ask "who is this" (because they're only allowed to call once a day, they don't like to id
Re:How do you fight collection agencies? (Score:3, Informative)
Just because caller ID won't give you their number doesn't mean that it's irretrievable. It just means that you have to file the right paperwork. Go get a free consultation with a lawyer and confirm the details for your jurisdiction.
Re:How do you fight collection agencies? (Score:3, Funny)
The question I'd like the answer to is "How do you stop a collection agency from calling your cell phone over and over when you have no idea who the person they want to collect the debt from is."
Some woman has been giving out my cell phone number as her contact number for about the past year.
I've talked to:
Re:How do you fight collection agencies? (Score:3, Informative)
No, of course not. They are working for their shareholders, just like any other company. You, a customer, are simply a money source; nothing less, nothing more. Of course you are treated like a cash cow - that's what you are to them.
Why do people keep on expecting companies to care about anything besides profits, when companies exist only to make profit ? A company that puts anything above profits is not doing its duty towards i
Re:Beware? (Score:2)
Re:Beware? (Score:2)
debt collection. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now check out what North Shore Agency promisses their customers [northshoreagency.com],
The limits of liability are galling:
What can you do if you believe a debt collector violated the law? You have the right to sue a collector in a state or federal court within one year from the date from the date the law was violated. If you win, you may recover money for the damages you suffered plus an additional amount up to $1000. Court costs and attorneys fees also can be recovered. A group of people also may sue a debt collector and recover money for damages up to $500,000, or one percent of the collectors net worth, whichever is less.
So how many thousands of dollars can be made by abusing thousands of people? Yet the limit is $500,000. Disgusting.
I'm sure I've only scraped the tip of the iceburg here. I've never been served one of these letters and am unaware of anything on my own credit record. Be aware however that bad credit will cost you dearly when you try to buy a car, house or anything else you can't buy outright. Is that teeth enough for you?
If this story is true, it's deplorable. Wired is not, I hope, so stupid as to burn the world's good will $12 at a time.
Re:Beware? (Score:2)
One of the first things a debt collection agency does is submit your name to CheckSystems. Try opening an account at any bank with an outstanding debt.
Re:Beware? (Score:2)
Collection agencies make money by lying to people who don't know any better. Standing up to them isn't difficult, you just have to know what you can and cannot do.
Re:Beware? (Score:5, Informative)
You can file a dispute. The credit agencies will take things off unless the creditor/debt collection agency validates the debt. Federal Law: Fair Credit Reporting Act
If they do - and it is invalid - they just violated the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. $1000 civil penalty, payable to you. Just putting it on your credit is likely an offense ($1000). 3 credit agencies, so if they play full hard ball, you can end up collecting $6000.
If you didn't renew - the issues that come to you are unsolicited. Federal law says you may not be billed for unsolicited mail.
KNOW THE LAW.
dear scumbags (Score:2, Insightful)
cc: better business bureau
I'm not paying your fraudulent bill. Stop harassing me.
Re:dear scumbags (Score:2)
cc: your (dis)approving employer. Dear Alien Being,
Thank you for your kind and cosiderape and amusing letter. We needed a lift after the shock of losing a suit yesterday and having to pay the maximum fine of $1,000. Your letter more than makes up for our loss of office cash for our weekly Hawian Friday Pigout.
Please find enclosed a duplicate copy of your bill and the contract stating your everlasting obesience to WIRED (TM). This proves your debt and we expect payme
Is this illegal? (Score:3, Interesting)
So when... (Score:4, Funny)
Read the article! (Score:3, Interesting)
always read the fine print!
Stupidity. (Score:4, Insightful)
If you agree to a renewing subscription and do not pay it, you have only yourself to blame.
If you ignore any request for payment from any company even if its fraudulent you again have only yourself to blame if you do not challenge it.
Re:Stupidity. (Score:2)
They weren't ex-customers.... (Score:3, Informative)
Try reading the article next time.
Re:They weren't ex-customers.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Stupidity. (Score:3, Insightful)
Not at all You can not be held responsible through inaction, if no prior engagement.
Re:Stupidity. (Score:2)
The big picture (Score:4, Interesting)
If you look over the other posts on this board, even you must come to the conclusion that Wired is losing a lot of money and subscribers together with its good will. In fact their level of stupidity on this move is stunning.
Re:Stupidity. (Score:4, Insightful)
They have to honor that.
Problem solved.
Re:Stupidity. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd say if the subscriber is guilty of anything, it is having an excess of trust. There was a time (not too long ago) when in dealing with a large, well established company one could be reasonably secure in the knowledge that they would NOT take advantage of "fine print" clauses like this one, which are obviously designed to squeeze out a few dollars from people who didn't read the contract. Now it appears that taking advantage of the customer has become a common practice, so that we do have to read the several pages of fine print in every commercial transaction. That's a pretty sad state of affairs, wouldn't you agree?
So no, we do not have "only ourselves to blame". The short sighted greed of unethical people is also part of the problem.
Not that simple (Score:4, Interesting)
PC Gamer does this too, and it happened to me. I subscribed specifically for a few years, with no running renewal agreement. I let it expire, I got a collections letter like this guy. So it's not a "didn't read the agreement" issue. The letter specifically referred to the situation as a "debt," which is untrue. If I ever get up off my ass, I've been planning on referring this to the AG's office, but since they're based in CA, I used to live in CA, and now I live in VA, I'm not sure which one.
If you ignore any request for payment from any company even if its fraudulent you again have only yourself to blame if you do not challenge it.
To an extent, but since claiming that someone owes you money when you know they don't is fraud, you can certainly blame them too. A lot of people might think it's easier to pay $12 than risk their credit.
I called PC Gamer, asked them what the hell this was about and why they're claiming I owe them money when I don't, and they just cancelled my subscription.
RTFA ok? (Score:5, Informative)
Poster - could you make Wired sound any more evil? Or did you
not read their explanation either.
Re:RTFA ok? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:RTFA ok? (Score:2)
Um, no, it's completely not like that.
With the Nigerian scams, the scammer is saying "if you give me your bank account number, you'll get $$$."
With autorenewal subscriptions, the vendor is saying "if you want to cancel you have to tell us, otherwise we're going to bill you."
The first is a lie; the second isn't.
Just because it may be hidden doesn't mean it's not there. Deception is a differe
Re:RTFA ok? (Score:5, Informative)
Needless to say, I was quite pissed off when I started receiving notices telling me my credit card was about to be automatically charged "for my convenience" to renew my subscription. I have a feeling this guy probably was a victim of the same tactics. I probably should report Wired to my state consumer protection authority... this seems like some pretty shady behavior.
Notably, I never had any problems with Wired until they were acquired by Conde Nast... from there the quality of both customer service and the magazine itself went downhill fast.
Being fed up with the rapidly declining quality of their publication and their strongarm tactics, rather than renew, I called their surprisingly hassle-free customer service line and canceled my subscription. I used to love Wired, but lately they just suck.
Doesn't look like debt to me... (Score:2)
Fake Collection Agencies (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Fake Collection Agencies (Score:4, Insightful)
Ah yes....Slashdot: News for Nerds. People who Should NEVER Give Legal Advice.
Don't throw out the letter, file it away in case this ever amounts to anything. While I too believe it probably has no teeth, would you take advice from a guy on the street named "Driftingwalrus" who told you to ignore something like this? No offense meant to parent, but I just think you should avoid taking legal advice from someone who is quite obviously not a lawyer.
You are 100% dead-on correct (Score:5, Informative)
Almost immediately I started receiving nasty collections letters from the precursor to the North Shore Agency. When I demanded that they stop contacting me, they REFUSED. It turns out that these guys aren't actually a collections agency...they're a billing clearinghouse used by several of the big publishing outfits. They ARE NOT legally a CRA, they CAN NOT place negative information on your credit report, and because they don't actually assume the debt, they can't even sue you for the bill.
Four years later, these idiots still send me nasty letters threatening undefined impending dire consequences every three months or so, but absolutely nothing has happened. I have no negative hits on my credit report, I have never recived a collections call, and no legal action has been attempted by anybody. These guys can bark a lot, but they are completely toothless when it comes time to back up their threats. Considering that my alleged $121 bill is far larger than those being levied against Wired subscribers, I'd guess that they'd go after me long before they go after them.
I quit caring about NSA collection letters a long time ago. My opinion nowadays is that if they want to waste the postage sending me a few letters a year, I'm perfectly content to throw them away with the rest of my junkmail.
Re:You are 100% dead-on correct (Score:3, Funny)
Pay the money, unplug the phone, burn any magnetic media you have and put on a tinfoil hat when you sleep. Then you might just get away with it.
Not all that unusual... (Score:5, Insightful)
In all honesty, Wired probably doesn't manage their subscription service. They hire some 3rd party to do it for them.
I remember when PC Gamer, Next Generation, Boot, etc used to send these out all the friggen time--- TO CHILDREN!
I don't like it either. It's one reason I only have 2 magazine subscriptions. The other companies have pissed me off...
wired is scammish (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:wired is scammish (Score:2)
Easy to prevent this (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Easy to prevent this (Score:5, Funny)
No time to read it?.. (Score:2, Funny)
I wouldn't even ask, but if you read the article, after it was all said and done, when it was settled he turned down a free subscription still siting "no time to read it".
Seriously, does this guy like, not ever use the bathroom? I know reading in the can isn't for everyone, but damn. He could easily spend five
Re:No time to read it?.. (Score:2)
Media Works (Score:4, Interesting)
It's easy to get into the habit of thinking that the media is toothless, but in many ways, the light of publicity can still bring about change for the best.
Some things to remember (Score:4, Interesting)
They don't have your SSN, which means no matter what they say, they cannot do jack to your credit report.
If you are not sure of this or don't believe, simply go ask for a free copy of your credit report at Experian, Transunion, or whatever the third one was. Just say you're credit was used fraudulently, which they'll put your credit on alert (a good damned thing if you ask me) and send you a free report.
Don't sweat it, they just sound tough but can't do a single thing. If they do have your credit card number or bank number and then charge without your permission, you can get it back, just go to whatever got charged and dispute it.
Really, they can't do a thing, people just give in because it sounds all scary.
Time to pound them (Score:5, Informative)
For new Wired magazine subscriptions e-mail subscriptions@wiredmag.com or call 800-SOWIRED (800-769-4733) inside the U.S. and Canada or 303-678-0354 from all other countries. Hey, it's a free call on their dime!
Public Relations, for a good time contact:
Kathy O'Reilly, Kathy.O'Reilly@lycos-inc.com,
Direct#: 781-370-3454
Snail Mail Wired News
660 3rd Street, 1st Floor
San Francisco, CA 94107
For the VoIP users:
Phone: 415-276-8400
Fax: 415-276-8500
I used to subscribe to wired, but when I quit... (Score:2)
Being a programmer, I was somewhat annoyed that Wired decided to spit in my eye by posting a huge front-page photo of an Indian woman with henna tattoos covering her hand. The headline said, more or less, "we're taking your jobs and there's nothing you can do about it, so ha ha".
My point of view was that since thi
Re:I used to subscribe to wired, but when I quit.. (Score:2)
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.02/full.htm
Now, tell me that's not completely obnoxious!!!
Fucking Wired.
Collections Agency - Automatic lost customer (Score:3, Interesting)
Sending debt collections companies, or the appearance of them should be the last resort for seriously delinquent customers who are basically trying to steal (or are bankrupt). I'm not sure when it started that collections agencies became the guaranteed repeat business tool.
Re:Collections Agency - Automatic lost customer (Score:4, Informative)
The funny thing about their current system is that a "2-day rental" is due back the third day by noon. However, there are no "late" fees now. 7 days past the due date they will just charge you an additional $12-$15 and you own the movie. Within 30 days of that charge you can reverse the purchase for a $1.25 "restocking fee". I read their fine print and didn't see anything about that 7-day period between when the rental is due and when they charge me for buying the movie. So, long story short all of my blockbuster rentals are now 9-day rentals for $4.
Entitlement (Score:3, Insightful)
If you returned the movie on time, their charge is fraudulent (like Wired's). If you were late, suck it up and pay, or let them tarnish your credit.
You are not legally entitled to screw corporations just because they want to screw you.
Re:Entitlement (Score:5, Interesting)
If you returned the movie on time, their charge is fraudulent (like Wired's). If you were late, suck it up and pay, or let them tarnish your credit.
You are not legally entitled to screw corporations just because they want to screw you.
There was a long standing precedent in the business that established that late fees for movies that had been returned were not collected until the next rental. This precedent had been in place for years, all over the country. Blockbuster decided to deviate from this practice without calling special attention to it, just so they could get a few more cents here and there in "time value of money". This may not be against the law, but I would call it unethical, or at the least, extremely poor customer service.
They lost my business over this issue too. Yes I know they changed this policy eventually, but I'm still not giving them my business again.
I may not be legally entitled to screw corporations that have poor customer service, but I don't have to patronize them either, and I am certainly within my rights to suggest that others shouldn't patronize them either.
Re:Entitlement (Score:5, Interesting)
Two anecdotes:
One friend of mine had a dollar late fee somewhere (I
Another time, he had over $50 in late fees to a store called Hastings. He obviously stopped renting there, since he wasn't about to drop $50+rental fee to rent a movie (he actually just BOUGHT movies for the longest time since it was cheaper--yes yes, overall it wouldn't have been but whatever). After over a year had passed, Hastings sent out a clemency note--come in and bring this coupon, and they'll forgive the late fees. This is clearly the way to go, as it gets people back into the store (always a good thing) and moreover, gets rid of their late fees so they'll start renting again. It also generates a bit of goodwill. This is the same store that will amortize your late fee so that you can continue renting without paying a large fee. Generally when I get a late fee, they offer to let me pay $1 per future rental until it's covered. I never bother, preferring to just pay the whole thing, but it's a good business practice, I think.
Re:Collections Agency - Automatic lost customer (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, see, there's the problem. Blockbuster doesn't have to respect your policies, but if you rent a movie from them you have to respect theirs.
wired... (Score:2)
Who's afraid of the big bad wolf? (Score:5, Interesting)
Then, pay three bucks to send the letter by certified mail with return receipt. Unless you owe a lot of money, and the collection agency has some real paperwork to prove that, this is the last time you'll hear from them. The certified mail receipt makes sure that you can burn their ass off if they ever try to bother you again for no reason.
Although some might baulk at the three bucks, just keep in mind that it costs the collection agency more than that to send the letter off and process your response (someone has to go in, look up your account number in their system, and mark it off).
If everyone did that, the collection agencies will quickly go out of business.
Re:Who's afraid of the big bad wolf? (Score:2)
On the other hand, you could also just pay your bills in the first place. If you disagree with an amount owing, it's downright stupid to just drop it in the trash. Call them up and contest the charge. And if you can't make the monthly payment, *call* the creditor and explain. Credit card companies and banks don't like sending accounts to collections, because it represents writing off the amount owing.
See, accounts are sent to
Re:Who's afraid of the big bad wolf? (Score:2)
GoDaddy does something similar (Score:3, Interesting)
More specifically, deep in the fine print of GoDaddy's terms of service, they mention that they will assume that you want to auto-renew a service when it expires. However, nowhere else do they mention this. In fact, 90 days, 60 days, and 30 days before the service expires, they will send you e-mails saying "This service is going to expire! Renew now so it won't happen!". Naturally, if you're like me, you would assume that such a message is implying that the service will simply end if you do nothing. Not so! Instead, on the day of expiration, you will get a notice from GoDaddy that they have billed your credit card for renewal, like it or not.
Now, for me, the service in question was not a domain name. I immediately contacted them an asked them to cancel the service and refund me, and they did. However, domain names (their primary business) can NOT be refunded, presumably since ICANN or whoever does not allow this. So, if this happens to you with a domain name, you're screwed.
Interestingly, GoDaddy also provides a feature that lets you "synchronize" your renewals, making all your services expire on the same date. Since you can renew any service at any time anyway (long before expiration), I see no reason for this feature to exist, other than to trick people into letting GoDaddy auto-renew all of their services at once.
Moral: Always explicitly cancel renewable services.
(Side note: Other than the above shady stuff, I find GoDaddy to be a very nice, high-quality service. I don't feel this is reason for a boycott, but you may make your own decision. I certainly would trust GoDaddy over Verisign, but that's not saying much.)
That's some news! (Score:3, Funny)
What's next on slashdot?
Wired Magazine lists the 19 digital projection theaters in the country where Attack of the Clones can be viewed as Lucas intended?
I guess I'll just have to switch back to my Doctor's waiting room for all my cutting-edge tech news.
Vonage does the same thing (Score:2, Interesting)
So is this the new business model for the 21st century? "Customers cant quit us, we OWN them"!
Don Corleone would be so proud.
A solution to the problem (Score:5, Informative)
Fine Print: IANAL, IANAA (I am not an American)
Re:A solution to the problem (Score:4, Informative)
(from http://www.ftc.gov/os/statutes/fdcpa/fdcpact.htm [ftc.gov]
)
(c) CEASING COMMUNICATION. If a consumer notifies a debt collector in writing that the consumer refuses to pay a debt or that the consumer wishes the debt collector to cease further communication with the consumer, the debt collector shall not communicate further with the consumer with respect to such debt, except --
(1) to advise the consumer that the debt collector's further efforts are being terminated;
(2) to notify the consumer that the debt collector or creditor may invoke specified remedies which are ordinarily invoked by such debt collector or creditor; or
(3) where applicable, to notify the consumer that the debt collector or creditor intends to invoke a specified remedy.
If such notice from the consumer is made by mail, notification shall be complete upon receipt.
Ya - Cancled (Score:2)
I think everyone should write them and complain. In fact their magazine subscripion email is: subscriptions@wiredmag.com [mailto]
Flood them.
PC Gamer Trial Problem (Score:4, Informative)
At this point, some more time passed, and he then began getting collection notices on this bill for a magazine he never even got the trial issues.
We had written 'CANCEL' on numerous of the PC gamer invoices, and returned them, but heard nothing back, and the collection notices continued.
We then contacted the collection company who tried to tell us to notify PC Gamer, which I explained that we've tried numerous times, but no action has been taken -- and they reluctantly removed us from their collection system, and apparently also removed our PC Gamer subscription, clearing everything up.
Seems like a lot of effort to try to go for, for a $20/yr magazine subscription.
This all occured over nearly a one-year period, so there was more than sufficient time in between each action to account for snail mail.
Yes, this happened to me. (Score:3, Informative)
As the claims were ludicrous, I immediately sent the collection agency Clark Howard's drop dead letter [clarkhoward.com], by certified mail.
After that, they cannot ever contact you again about that debt, and no, it will not effect your credit one way or another. (WIRED basically lost that right when they agreed to let a collection agency try to get the money for them... oversimplifying it.)
They really shot themselves in the foot, because up until that time, I would buy the magazine off the newsstand even when I let my subscription lapse. Since I got that letter, I've never bought a copy of WIRED again.
To hell with "fine print" (Score:5, Insightful)
Since the vast majority of people aren't lawyers (and probably lack the reading comprehension skills needed to read at that level); we can't expect people to thoroughly read through every single EULA, magazine subscription "fine print", etc. in order to know if any of the many convoluted, "lawyer speak", terms will screw you over in the end. This leaves average people to do exactly what most people do right now which is to "gloss over" "fine print" and hope for the best. In this particular case, Wired magazine took what would otherwise be generic "fine print" and slipped in a term radically different from what is the generally accepted method for handling magazine subscriptions. I feel that this should be looked upon as, at least, unethical and should, quite possibly, be considered fraudulent behavior.
What it boils down to is that we need to decide what kind of society we want to live in. Do we want to live in a society where the only way you can avoid being fleeced by big business is to be a lawyer who devotes a large portion of his/her free time to religiously reading the "fine print" to every single product or service he/she buys or signs up for no matter how small or trivial that product or service happens to be? The burden here should fall on the businesses providing the product/service in question.
Individuals have, for the most part, very limited resources (time, money, intellect, etc.) with which to comprehend threats posed by "fine print". If the burden were on the individual then that person would have to expend that effort for every example of "fine print" he/she is exposed to. In comparison, businesses usually have more resources with which to develop "fine print" that doesn't include clauses that aren't generally known and accepted by the community the product/service is being sold in. They only have to expend the overhead once for every product/service they release. Any significantly unusual terms should be listed in a manner that draws attention to it so that potential customers will notice it.
Unfortunately, at the present time, we seem to live in a society that allows large companies (like the ones in the software industry) to create complex licenses like software EULAs that contain clauses hidden away in the middle requiring you to hand over you first born son or all your worldly possessions in exchange for using their newest Operating System. We need to push our government to enact consumer protection laws that stop this kind of abuse.
-GameMater
Re:To hell with "fine print" (Score:3, Insightful)
I disagree with this part. We need to stop buying from 'fine print' vendors. We need to support ethical, fair businesses. We need to generate awareness of the problem.
Letting the government do anything besides protect us from our enemies is asking for ineptitude and inefficiency. You're likely to see the amount of fine print quintuple if the government gets involved. You're asking beauracrats to prune their
Readers Digest is almost as bad... (Score:3, Interesting)
Happened to me too! (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't all magazines do this? Throw it out! (Score:3, Informative)
I can vouch, having ignored many of these "payment due" notices from magazines. They have not once shown on a credit report from any agency, which I check every year.
Doesn't it cost them some money anyway just to file a complaint with a credit agency? it seems like it would cost them a lot more than they would gain if they actually filed reports on people.
BYTE magazine (Score:3, Insightful)
At first, things are cool. Magazines stop coming after the subscription expires, nothing happens for three months. Then I get the letter from a collection agency. I owe BYTE magazine $1.36 for "underpaying my subscription". Pay up or else.
I shit you not. $1.38. They went to a collection agency for a fucking $1.38.
This letter came at a particularly stressful point in my life, and I was in no mood for this shit. At the time, I did not really understand how collection agencies and the law worked, so I simply bypassed the collection agency, called up BYTE magazine directly, and majorly unloaded on their customer support. The poor girl that happened to answer my call must have been new, for by the end of it I swore she was almost in tears, telling me to forget all about it, sorry for the inconvenience, blah blah blah, have a nice day.
I never received anything more from them or had anything bad pop up on my credit report.
Here is how I handled the NSA / Commentary (Score:3, Interesting)
Canadian Wired Subscription CANCELLED right now... (Score:3, Insightful)
I received one more card from them later on, stating everything was finally cancelled and have heard nothing since then. With this much hassle in cancelling your subscription I am *NEVER* ever re-subscribing to them again, besides, you can go to wired.com [wired.com] anyways, and just read everything thats in the magazine in full (yes - I've sat and compared the online version and the magazine version) - the only difference is the 70% of ads they plow into it and all their NEXFest promotional stuff.
I subscribed because the articles are very well written and researched, and thought I might support them a bit, but never again.
Magazine for free? (Score:3, Insightful)
So, instead of just terminating the subscription as they said they would in the first letter, they got a collection agency to pay USD 12 up front? That's great. My answer would be something like:
Otherwise, it's just the same fraudulent scare tactic that seems to have become quite popular. Just don't give in as long as you have any proof that you're right (correspondence, conditions at the time of latest subscription renewal, etc.). Show the CA that they're being used in a criminal scheme and they'll get quite angry with their original customer.
Re:July 11, 2002 --- This is OLD news! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:July 11, 2002 --- This is OLD news! (Score:2, Informative)
Did you even read TFA? It clearly states in the section called "Longstanding relationship":
'In any case, Wired has been using North Shore for a number of years. I found some online gripes about the North Shore letters dating back to 2002 (and you can see one of the firm's letters for yourself at http://urbanideas.com/images/nsa.jpg [urbanideas.com]).'
Clearly, the linked image is not the letter that McMillan (the subject of the article) received. Of course, this would only be clear if you actually read the article be
Re:I call BS on this one... (Score:2, Insightful)
What are you gonna do then, sue them?
They face pissed-off people all the time and have the right tools ( legal tactics ) to handle them.
Re:I call BS on this one... (Score:5, Informative)
Well, most of them pack a little more punch than that. However, you have to realize that there is a difference between a $12 debt and a $12,000 debt.
After having to deal with the idiots at Paypal in one of these cases, here are a few things that I've learned. I feel it's kind of important to note that I'm not an expert, I didn't go to school for any of this, and your results may vary. I'm just giving you information straight from the gift-horse, if you will. Also, this should only be used for small debts. If you're not aware that there is a difference between $200 and $20,000, then you're probably in this situation for a reason.
1. When the debt collection agency calls you or send you a letter, the most important thing is to keep your cool. Don't freak out.
2. If they call you by phone, absolutely under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you continue speaking over the phone. Basically, if they call you, they should identify themselves, and then next words out of your mouth should be, "I only wish to communicate via postal mail." Say nothing else. Do not admit you have debt. Do not admit that you don't have a debt. Don't deny anything, don't even tell them your name. Just say, "I only wish to communicate via postal mail", wait for a response, and hang up--if they try and push, just keep repeating that line. If the continue calling you after that, you can then take them to small claims court.
3. Eventually, you will get a letter from them asking you to cough up the money. You'll probably have XX amount of days to reply to the letter that they send you. Do NOT just throw away the letter and pretend these people will go away. If you don't reply, then they can start pulling out their big guns (e.g. listing wonderful stuff on your credit report, etc). Basically, you have two roads you can take at this point. You can either choose to pay, or you can try your luck at bullshitting out of your debt. If you did nothing wrong, or if the debt is for, say, less than $1,000, use the latter. If your in some pretty hefty debt, I can't really tell you what to do in that case. Anyways, if you choose route number two, send a written letter along these lines (set it up as a business letter, I know you know how to!):
"To Whom It May Concern:
I have received your collection letter regarding the $[DOLLAR_AMOUNT] that you claim I owe. This is my response to that claim.
I am formally disputing the validity of this debt in its entirety. Please forward me complete copies of all documentation that you and [COMPANY] have to verify this debt. You have 30 days from the date of this letter to send me complete copies of all documentation, otherwise I will consider this debt to be completely invalid and all further collection efforts must cease immediately.
Sincerely,
[NAME_HERE]"
When you send your letter in response to the debt collection letter you receive, be sure to make a copy of it. Also send the letter registered with return receipt requested. Take the letter to the post office, and get the letter registration receipt postmarked, save the receipt from the post office, and save the return receipt when you get it. KEEP EVERYTHING. If you do end up going to court, then you can use all this documentation against them.
Once they receive the letter, they then have 30 days to send you all the documentation that proves you owe the money. In this letter, do NOT include any information, statements other than what I said, what happened, what you have done, or anything else. KEEP IT SIMPLE. Actually, I'd suggest just copying and pasting that letter.
If after 45 days you havn't gotten a response, your debt is gone. There is nothing further that they can do to force you to pay the money, including listing the debt on your credit report, etc. By not responding they have said (accord
Re:I call BS on this one... (Score:4, Informative)
I would however suggest that you do not take any of this post as any sort of advice, legal or not, as it is entirely incorrect on many many points.
Writing a letter giving them a 30 day deadline is not legally binding. Both sides would have to agree to such a contract and there's no way they would agree to that.
Also, telling them over the phone to cease verbal contact has no meaning at all in most/all states. Request of that nature must be done in writing by mail.
Also, that letter will accomplish nothing as you never asked them to cease communication in it. The owner, original lender or not, is still fully entitled AND REQUIRED BY LAW to report the current status of the debt within a certain time period.
Oh look, I ended up writing a bunch anyway. To sum it all up, the advice in the above post is as phoney as my spelling of baloney. Don't take my word for it either, go look it up.
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:This makes you wonder... (Score:3, Insightful)
And you don't want to "stir up SH*T on
Very nice.