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The Other Side of BitTorrent 510

ByteWoopy wrote to mention a Wired article giving more coverage to the upside of BitTorrent. From the article: "Film and television executives no doubt wish the increasingly popular BitTorrent peer-to-peer file-sharing system never saw the light of day. Thousands of consumers are using the software to download hundreds of movies and hours upon hours of television programming. But one industry's threat is another's opportunity. There's an upside to allowing viewers to transfer copyright material content over BitTorrent. As noted by Japanese entrepreneur Joi Ito, fans of the Japanese anime series Naruto regularly post translated episodes of the show to BitTorrent, which attracts more fans to the series. The relatively obscure program has spawned a global following in online forums, internet relay chat channels and fan sites."
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The Other Side of BitTorrent

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  • Upside of BitTorrent (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    If they were to distribute Movies over BitTorrent on a pay per download basis, they could make a lot of money.

    The reason a lot of people use BitTorrent is not because it is free, but because it is easy. If the industry were to give people easy access to data, more people might purchase it.
    • I agree with this to a certain extent. Provide stuff like episodes we don't get here in the states, or show conferences, or shows that we missed, or cable programming for those who don't have cable and I think there is a viable market. I remember wanting to see Battlestar Galactica so bad I scoured the internet for torrents.
      • by m4dm4n ( 888871 )
        As long as there are free episodes to download, charging won't work.

        I remember reading somewhere (may well have been on slashdot) an idea about integrating adverts into the downloads. Not big intrusive ads that people get up to make coffee during, but a little icon at the top of the screen where the tv station emblem would usually be.

        I'm pretty sure <insert large multinational here> would pay a decent price to have that spot. Knowing that as long as people are downloading that episode, their logo is
        • As long as there are free episodes to download, charging won't work.

          While I agree with the rest of your post, I (IMHO) disagree with the above portion.
          Just look at Apple's success with iTunes [apple.com] as for example.

          Aside from those who are either too poor or too unethical to pay, I think that most people do/will for quality content, and there are plenty of the "out there". I, for one, would be really happy to pay for some good tv shows and movies, provided that the price is reasonable, and the A/V quuality is goo

        • by TrentC ( 11023 )

          As long as there are free episodes to download, charging won't work.

          No kidding. Everyone knows that no one will pay to download music from the internet [apple.com].

          If people can get something from the commercial download experience that they can't get from the, um, "unlicensed" versions, they'll pay.

          Since BTEfnet and the other TV sites went down, I've lost my handy RSS feed, which made my downloading a lot easier (and faster, with eveyone downloading from the same source at the same time). Right now I scrape seve

    • Yeah Right (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Vandil X ( 636030 ) on Thursday June 02, 2005 @12:08PM (#12705961)
      I'm not sure what universe you live in, but the vast majority of those pirating materials on the Internet aren't doing so because of the lack of a well-thought-out legal distribution model.

      The reason is that these people believe/expect that everything on the Internet is free.

      These are many of the same people that believe people are born with the right to pirate their copy of Windows because Microsoft has tons of money.
      • Re:Yeah Right (Score:5, Insightful)

        by GMFTatsujin ( 239569 ) on Thursday June 02, 2005 @12:29PM (#12706155) Homepage
        I'd back you up here, but I don't subscribe to Slashdot, I adblock all the flash on the page, and don't allow popups.

        Funny thing: once upon a time, everything on the Internet WAS free. Pay for access, sure, but once the pipe was open there was a whole world of academics, collaborators, hobbyists, and so on whose whole reason for being on the Internet was to share. Share! Amazing!

        Commerical interests have no "this isn't how it should be" claim to stake. They're the Jonnys-come-lately online, and they *still* have to learn how to adjust.
      • I would disagree quite strongly.
        I download star trek episodes. They never seem to show in a timely manor over here (uk) and if I miss an episode that's it. I can't even buy them since the dvd's lag 4 seasons behind!
        Same with southpark, family guy and futurama.

        I would very happily pay a fair price to download from bittorrent.

        Of course, what a fair price is will probably be disputed :)

      • Re:Yeah Right (Score:4, Insightful)

        by orasio ( 188021 ) on Thursday June 02, 2005 @12:42PM (#12706283) Homepage
        These are many of the same people that believe people are born with the right to pirate their copy of Windows because Microsoft has tons of money.

        I, myself, think Microsoft, even having tons of money, doesn't have the right of having me copy (not pirate, pirates have sailing ship and I don't) MSWindows, without paying me in exchange. I am very happy with slackware, thank you very much.

      • Actually it is more a convenience factor. Downloading via bittorrent is much easier (takes about 2 minutes of your time) than buying DVDs and TV is out of the race anyway because they never show the right things at the right time (and here in germany some/most of the translations are really bad IMO)
      • Yes, but TV is free too (sort of). How? Advertisements. Just reapply the same business model here. I download episodes of Lost because I came into the TV season at the 20th episode and decided I liked the show and wanted to watch them in order. If a TV company provided decent free torrents with the commercials and advertisements intact, I'd be there in a second - the free torrent sites are flaky. Even if there was a nominal monthly fee for such a service (say, $5 a month to help the servers run), I'd
        • Re:Yeah Right (Score:3, Insightful)

          by bonehead ( 6382 )
          It's the TV on demand that's the problem.

          Sure, they want you to have your eyeballs on their ads, but that's not quite enough. They also try very hard to keep your eyeballs OFF of the competition's ads. The only real mechanism they have for accomplishing this is through scheduling, like "super sizing" Friends to take eyeballs away from Survivor.

          TV on demand takes that ability away from them. (Yes, they're losing it anyway, but you can bet they'll hang on as long as they can.)
      • Hey, it's information, right? Information is now trivially copyable once in digital form, and nothing is going to change that. The traditional paradigms accompanying the transfer of information solely on physical media are becoming increasingly invalid without placing artifical constraints.

        Society influences technology; is it not time for technology to influence society?
      • Re:Yeah Right (Score:5, Insightful)

        by AKAImBatman ( 238306 ) * <akaimbatman@gmaiBLUEl.com minus berry> on Thursday June 02, 2005 @12:51PM (#12706372) Homepage Journal
        I'm not sure what universe you live in, but the vast majority of those pirating materials on the Internet aren't doing so because of the lack of a well-thought-out legal distribution model.

        Try again. The lack of a well-thought-out legal distribution model is EXACTLY the reason for rampant piracy. What we have here is the same sort of loophole that brought Napster into existence. The public wants their entertainment media combined with the convenience of the Internet. In the case of Napster, the RIAA tried to ignore the market pressures and stiffle the distribution of MP3s. Yet without realizing it, they only managed to add to an economic vacuum. As you probably know, nature abhors a vacuum.

        As a result, every attempt by the RIAA to crush the MP3 craze only served to increase it. Before they knew it, MP3 players started popping up and an entire market grew around something was supposed to be illegal. This prompted Steve Jobs to call the music executives a bunch of idiots, and then go on to figure out a music distribution model for them. Today, iTunes is a highly successful product that has spawned a large number of competitors. Between them, they have caused people to pay for music that they would have otherwise pirated.

        The same thing is now happening to the Television industry. Between TIVOs and BitTorrent, the world is demanding digital, on-demand television. The TV industry has been somewhat supportive with things like TV on DVD releases and Cable on-demand(which has probably helped a lot), but can't seem to let go of its traditional content delivery models. This is slowly causing a vacuum which BitTorrent is quickly filling.

        Which is really too bad. An Internet distribution model could allow TV producers to completely break free of the rigors of program scheuduling, annual show seasons, required program order sizes, and primetime competition. Instead, shows would compete directly on how attractive they are to the market.

        As for movies, I think a vacuum is developing, but it's not a real problem yet. People want Internet content delivery, but are still happy with it being exclusively released to the Theater first. Most of what's going on right now is true piracy that the industry has always had to deal with. As a result, it doesn't currently impact their numbers by much as long as they keep it in check. But in the near future, I predict that people are going to feel much more strongly about having on-demand access to old movie libraries (where old is any movie that has been out for more than a year to a year and a half).
      • Re:Yeah Right (Score:3, Insightful)

        Not many people expect much for free. We just don't like being bled dry by the entertainment industry.

        Convince me that a CD should $15. I believe they were right about $15 when CDs first came out. If prices don't change for over 10 years, the record companies make tons of money and the artists get a small piece of that action, I say that's crap. I will say that artists are really stupid if they think they can't sell music off of a website on their own.

        Movies? No actor deserves $20M for a movie. If i
        • Re:Yeah Right (Score:3, Interesting)

          I completely agree. Most of the music I listen to is obscure old jazz that typically exists in one of three forms. A lot of the time it has gone public domain and downloading MP3s of old records ripped by total fanatics (i.e. great quality) is 100% legal. Most often family members of the artist (who died a long time ago) think they deserve to profit on grandpa's talent... Uhm, screw them... Then there is the worst; when the record company owns the rights. Should Sony be able to profit on grandpa's talents?

    • People also use BitTorrent because its FAST. I have no idea why people think its mostly movies and songs going across bittorrent. That makes no sense as bittorrent is not anonymous in the least, and requires a central server.

      The companies I see using BitTorrent are software developers. Patch releases, shareware games, movie trailers, all perfectly legal and easily found on bittorrent. Stuff you used to need an account on fileplanet or some such to get.

      Blizzard released video demos of WOW on bittorrent
    • The reason a lot of people use BitTorrent is not because it is free, but because it is easy. If the industry were to give people easy access to data, more people might purchase it.

      I totally agree. This is all basic economics, supply and demand, right? I pay for things so that I can get them easier/faster/better quality than finding/making my own.

      Economics is the science that attempts to optimize the distribution of goods from producers to consumers. Or at least that's how I learned it back in high sc

  • "Film and television executives no doubt wish the increasingly popular BitTorrent peer-to-peer file-sharing system never saw the light of day."

    Instead of hate it and wish it gone, why not work towards this new technology with hopes to use it with fewer worries?
    • Instead of hate it and wish it gone, why not work towards this new technology with hopes to use it with fewer worries?

      It won't happen. The larger and more established and industry gets the less willing they to change from whatever strategy they think works for them even when it isn't working anymore. Shit, look how long it took Blockbuster to adopt a subcription model while Netflix and the other online movie rental shops were kicking their ass.

    • Re:Positive (Score:5, Interesting)

      by IAmTheDave ( 746256 ) <basenamedave-sd@ ... m minus math_god> on Thursday June 02, 2005 @12:17PM (#12706045) Homepage Journal
      Instead of hate it and wish it gone, why not work towards this new technology with hopes to use it with fewer worries?

      This is a common illustration of the canyon-like divide between the common ./er and industry executives. While the parent comment is indeed something that seems totally resonable and based entirely in common logic, for some reason the industry has time and again rallied against innovation that has proven over and over to make it money in the long run.

      Without citing the vast library of examples directly related to the current technology push and pull (betamax, DVDs, tape recorders, CDRs) it is often interesting to me just to witness the complete lack of logic employed by the industry. On the one hand you have an industry whos business it is to distribute content, and on the other hand you have the same industry doing its best to shut down, criminalize, and sue out of existance the very distribution channels adopted and eventually preferred by their customers (again, and again, and again.)

      So although I am certainly a subscriber to the logic posed by the parent poster, as are most people on /. (or, at least those who post comments), I have yet to be able to come up with a substantial explanation for the vast divide between logic and the industry.
    • "The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present" (Abraham Lincoln)

      Entrenched in a dogmatic prision of current *IAA practices keep them from moving forward.

  • by ufpdom ( 556704 ) <ncc1701pNO@SPAMhotmail.com> on Thursday June 02, 2005 @11:50AM (#12705780)
    I've been using BT for years to grab the latest and greatest anime from japan.. For once someone actually see's the good use for BT. Yeah I grab the TV Series.. I then later buy the dvds for the extra content.
    • Well, that is what the RIAA amd MPAA is really afraid of. Bittorrent opens up competition. They want you to watch and listen only to what they feed you, not stuff from other countries...

    • I then later buy the dvds for the extra content.
      It's this step that never happens for the majority of BT users. It doesn't matter if the DVDs aren't sold/available_for their market. Copyrighted media is still copyrighted media.
      • yeah, i know thats one angle. I personally do actually purchase the dvds (see my collection of all the adult swim dvds as example). I dont buy as much as i should, however, with several of the anime series i watch, i had the same expirence as tfa. because i dont have cable, i only get exposed to them via the internet. And then i only buy the ones that are any good. Works for me, i have a large dvd collection, and they still make money off of me. In my mind, i dont see how this is wrong. (other than the stuf
      • Ok, explain this to me einstein..

        Ive a big box of change that I keep under my computer desk. Whenever I come home with change, I give it a toss in the box. Every other month or so, it amounts to about 100$. "Free money" as who wants to pay everything with change?

        Ok.. Ive spare money and Ive a 'debit card' to a shill account which I manually deposit into (keeps a balance of $5.01 normally). And I see these nifty creations here and there whether it be a hardware hacking or new media to listen/watch.

        What I
        • While micropayments directly to content creators is an idyllic and very thoughtful way to compensate artists, the truth is, we live in a world full of distributors, packagers, and other fun middlemen.

          As physical goods transform into electronic goods, perhaps the industry will find a means to phase out the middlemen. But it sure wouldn't be profitable and would possibly be devastating to the national economies of several nations.

          Kind of why we still use petroleum for energy. Sure there are better (an
    • This brings to mind a real slippery slope on the "Pirate" vs. "Legit". Here is a short tale moral tale:

      I am a recent convert to anime. A friend turned me on to a series of Japanese toons called Cowboy Beebop which is an absolutely awesome series (and I think the inspiration for the game Freelancer; look at the trade lanes and think about it) .

      From there I grew to love a series called Full Metal Panic. I could go on about the careful attention the animators in Japan give to detail as vs. the typ
  • by Elecore ( 784561 ) on Thursday June 02, 2005 @11:51AM (#12705790) Homepage
    This reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw once that said "I'm a musician in favour of P2P". I think we need more people like this give stories. Afterall, if the ARTISTS (musicians, movie makers, whatever) come out and say they support online file sharing of this nature, then the MPAA and RIAA and such lose a lot of ground.
    • Good start, but why not take it further?

      We live in an age where recording labels can become largely irrelevant (at least for music). It doesn't cost that much to put together an album. The days of artists signing away the next 10 years of their music careers are over. Now, an artist can record an album, and sell it online, costing consumers much less than physical media. It's cutting out the middle-man.

      Yes naysayers, there is still a market for CD's. The artist can choose to create physical albums
      • That's fine unless you like classical music, the "produce it in your garage" thing doesn't work for an orchestra. Granted, you can make cds out of live performances, but you won't necessarily get as good of album.
  • Plus Linux ISOs, Open Office, OpenCD etc etc.

    The *AA and friends basically regret that *digital* had ever been invented.

    • no no no, see, there was copying with analog too. The *AA basically resent people had ever been invented...
    • Pfft. The RI/MPAA business model was flawed from the get go. Analog technologies could transmit the signal just as well (AM style, w00p).

      Copying Records would have been a bit more difficult, but it wouldn't have been long before someone figured out how to do it cheaply. The only hope they could have had for locking down their content was to put it in a theater, and frisk everyone going in/coming out.
    • BT is an excellent distribution model for open source software and operating systems.

      It's too bad that those materials are in the minority of what materials the technology is really used to obtain.
  • Joi Ito (Score:5, Interesting)

    by pHatidic ( 163975 ) on Thursday June 02, 2005 @11:51AM (#12705794)
    To call Joi Ito just a Japanese entrepreneur is to slight his credibility. Joi is not just an entrepreneur, but also a venture capitalist. He is also on the board of directors of ICANN and Creative Commons, among other organizations. His blog is ranked in the top 100 on technorati, although personally I have always been a bit suspicious since he funded that company also.
  • Only two sides? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by braindead ( 33893 ) on Thursday June 02, 2005 @11:51AM (#12705795)
    Come on guys, bittorrent is not limited to illegally sharing copyrighted materials for evil (which movies companies hate) or for good (which obscure anime companies love).

    There is also this large world of legally sharing copyrighted content, like linux ISO or actually free radio or TV shows.
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • And TV shows, too.

      For instance, I have scifi channel, but Stargate used to come at a very bad time for me.

      So, I'd go ahead and download it off the web - hey, what's the difference? I pay for the channel and I'd have recorded it anyway, instead, I download it off someone who's recorded it.

  • Yay! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Swamii ( 594522 ) on Thursday June 02, 2005 @11:52AM (#12705803) Homepage
    Now when we get sued by the RIAA/MPAA, we can point them to this Slashdot thread and they will no doubt drop all of their lawsuits because Joi Ito has a larger fan base thanks to BT.
  • Naruto (Score:5, Interesting)

    by epiphani ( 254981 ) <epiphani@dal . n et> on Thursday June 02, 2005 @11:54AM (#12705818)
    I happen to follow naruto - its incredible how this works.

    The show airs in Japan on wednesday night at 7:28pm local time. Within 24 hours, a fansubbed version is released on the internet. The most recent version was released about 13 hours ago, and there are currently 15770 seeds and 13600 peers on this torrent. In 12 hours, 11.5 terabytes has been transferred, and just over 71,000 people have downloaded the episode.

    I honestly wonder if there is an environment that does the same thing to bittorrent on such a scale.
    • You can get even faster. I used to download Buffy the vampire slayer from newsgroups. The version on there was originally captured off of the satelite broadcast to England which took place before the show aired in North America. I Could download the show and watch it usually 1 day before it officially aired. It also didn't have the stupid station logo in the bottom corner yet. I collected most of the series that way but these days I've just bought the DVD's entirely for the extra material.
    • I honestly wonder if there is an environment that does the same thing to bittorrent on such a scale.

      Any decent content distribution network (like those offered by Akamai or Savvis) will do. The overall network load is even lower than Bittorrent because you automatically download from a server which is close to you.
    • Re:Naruto (Score:3, Interesting)

      by interactii ( 888967 )
      I'm the project coordinator for dattebayo's Naruto. The 24-hour release process is highly optimized to have a mix of quality and speed. The single fastest release we ever did was 10 hours after it aired, but yes, typically its 20-24 hours. As far as scale, Naurto is the most popular fansub known, and it holds the records as far as I've seen for torrent occupancy, at least in fansubbing. Those numbers you pasted are typical, but back before dattebayo worked on this project, a torrent on a.scarywater.net had
  • Nothing new (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Richie1984 ( 841487 )
    There are many 'other sides' to bit torrent, such as downloading patches, programs, and non-copyright material. The only whining we hear about bit torrent is when the **AA complain about users downloading their material, thus attacking their distribution methods. I'm sure they'd feel differently about bit torrent as a distribution tool if they embraced it. Sadly, they seem to be attacking it in the same way they attacked VHS, cds and other recording mediums.
  • The World Intellectual Property Organization WIPO [wipo.int] is hosting an online discussion about "Intellectual Property in the Information Society [wipo.int]" from June 1 to 15, 2005.The conclusions of the Online Forum will form part of WIPO's contribution to the WSIS Tunis Summit.

    If you have any comments about file sharing, copyright enforcement, etc. (and who hasn't?), this may be a good place to post them.

    There are 10 different themes for discussion, including "Public domain and open information: at odds with the IP system or enabled by it? [wipo.int]" and "Enforcement of IP rights in the digital environment [wipo.int]".

    Although it doesn't explcitly say so in the invitation, I assume that Slashdot readers are welcome to take part as well. But keep it clean :-)

  • by springbox ( 853816 ) on Thursday June 02, 2005 @11:55AM (#12705838)
    Joi Ito's opinion: "fans of the Japanese anime series Naruto regularly post translated episodes of the show to BitTorrent, which attracts more fans to the series." I'm really tired of seeing this sort of thinking repeated over and over as if it were to suddenly make the act of sharing copyrighted materials legal. I won't disagree that in some cases piracy can be a good thing, but that still doesn't make it any less illegal no matter what spin you put on it.
    • > I'm really tired of seeing this sort of thinking repeated over and over as
      > if it were to suddenly make the act of sharing copyrighted materials legal.

      Perhaps you've misunderstood. I govern my actions by what I consider to be
      _moral_, not legal. Often those two classes overlap, but in many cases they
      don't. I suspect this is the motive behind the arguments you're seeing.
    • What you say is true, as far as it goes, but, on the other hand, sharing copyrighted materials is NOT illegal IF the copyright owner has given permission, as tens or hundreds of thousands of musicians, filmmakers and software developers have.

      I think the interesting point of this particular case is that it serves to counter the standard "sharing hurts artists" line. Many artists are already clued into that fact that sharing can be beneficial (and some even were before the Internet came along, having seen t
  • by Paradox ( 13555 ) on Thursday June 02, 2005 @11:56AM (#12705843) Homepage Journal
    Typically, anime is only distributed via torrent when there is no american company planning to sell it. This policy is meant to help smooth frictions between american publishers and file sharers. It's hard to argue that money is lost when americans download episodes of an anime that may never even be shown anywhere but Japan, and if no money is lost then a lawsuit is rather pointless.

    The day that Naruto got licensed for US distribution, the fanbase seemed to go completely crazy. No one wanted to stop watching. Several groups decided to take their effort "underground" (by which I mean not listed on popular anime tracker sites, only from IRC and obscure group webpages).

    If anything, bittorrent is good for series like Naruto. Distribution companies get a free, zero-effort focus group for nearly every anime that comes out. By watching anime tracker stats, it's easy to see which series are a crazy success and which are bombs. This is also much more reliable than watching screening attendance at conventions (which tend to vary wildly by time and location).

    It just goes to show that just because you can excercise your copyrights, it doesn't always mean you should. I seriously doubt an anime like Gantz (or even Midori No Hibi, although I think people would argue with me about that) would have ever seen american distribution without a lot of fan support from subbers and the thousands of people who download unreleased anime.
    • Part of the logic (excuse?) of some of the fansubbing teams is that when they licensed Naruto, they licensed a fixed number of early episodes. So, those episodes are out of distribution - but the most recent ones for those of us who have been watching since the beginning are still made available.
    • Typically? Bollocks. No one seems to care whether a series has been licensed or not.

      PS, why is this story under the patents topic? It has nothing to do with patents?

      PPS, why are there so many OT replies today? Are replies being attached to incorrect parent messages or something?
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday June 02, 2005 @11:56AM (#12705850)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • 6) Try to sell to international TV networks
      7) Notice they're not buying as much as you'd like to see because their target audience appears to be downloading the thing anyway
      8) Try to sell the DVDs
      9) Notice they're not selling as well as you'd like to see because the target audience appears to be downloading the thing anyway
      10) Still profit. But not as much as you potentially could at this point.
      11) Apply RIAA/MPAA math as applicable and complain about the hand that fed you in 'the early days'

      In this case,
      • 10) Still profit. But not as much as you potentially could at this point.

        Coulda, shoulda, woulda; potential doesn't count in a sale. It's still profit, more than they had before, and therefore worth pursuing because the benefits outweigh the expendatures.

        Plus, limiting the scope of sale to one line doesn't make sense. By getting one's foot in the door of sales of a popular product (having come to it late) a business stands to become the source of *other* products in the same vein, and this time they c
    • by zalas ( 682627 ) on Thursday June 02, 2005 @12:13PM (#12706008) Homepage
      1) Series is not available outside of Japan.
      2) Internet and fansubbing make series available outside of Japan.
      3) Fansubs build series' popularity.
      4) Publishers see demand and release series worldwide, seeing huge amounts of sale from fans they never would have had before.
      5) Profit.

      This used to be true, until now, when more and more American companies start negotiating series with Japanese licensors before the show even starts airing... Some shows, such as Tenjho Tenge [tenjhotenge.com] were created with money paid up front by American companies. Sure, the very obscure show will still get some benefit from BitTorrent, but a good chunk of shows, the super popular ones that fansubbers sub, tend to be noticed by companies before airing and perhaps are already in license negotiations once airing starts. And face it, I'm sure most of the people downloading Naruto wouldn't even think of buying the DVDs. I mean, just look at all the complaints on the forums when the Naruto license was announced, when their free flow of episodes was in danger of getting shut down.
      • And face it, I'm sure most of the people downloading Naruto wouldn't even think of buying the DVDs.

        Actually, my experience has been that the vast majority of people buy the DVD's. The quality difference is staggering (DVD really shines with anime) and the extras are usually quite good. I buy very little anime (I have friends who are MUCH more into that I am), but when I see a really good series via BitTorrent, I'll buy it (Haibane Renmei, Azumanga Daioh, etc). Otherwise, I'll watch it once and delete it,
    • This works out extremely well for the developer, who doesn't need to spend money advertising, and gets a large amount of revenue they wouldn't have seen before.

      Of course, this assumes that the product is good enough that seeing it will be enough to fuel consumer interest. If your product stinks, you have no marketing to push consumers into liking it.

      And that's a problem for companies selling it. Marketing is more of a sure science than any means of coming up with good products that people will actuall

  • What we had long known becomes news once it's reported by Wired. Yes, many, many indie filmmakers got enormous amounts of word-of-mouth through torrent, particularly documentarians. Wanna be famous fast? Make a half-decent homemade documentary about a hot topic featuring a bunch of talking heads and put it on torrent, and you're likely to have your hour in which you're in more demand than Michael Moore!
  • by RenegadeTempest ( 696396 ) on Thursday June 02, 2005 @11:57AM (#12705863)
    What people sometimes fail to grasp is that the entertainment industry (RIAA & MPAA) aren't really concerned about piracy. They will bitch and moan about decreasing revenue but those are a drop in the bucket. Most revenue lost due to piracy wasn't real revenue anyways. The people infringing on the copyright would have never bought the product in the first place.

    What the RIAA and MPAA are most afraid of is that there is now a free distribution mechanism for artists. they don't need someone to label and distribute their art, they can just push up on a bit torrent. They can by-pass the leeches that only exist to take more from the talented people producing great work. They also can't control what we listen to and what we watch. they make their money by pumping out the same crap month after month and taking a small percentage from the artists.

    If they lose control of the mechanism for distributing art, then they can kiss their racket goodbye.

    • Your comment is absolutely correct. Profit and piracy have always been side issues, a diversionary tactict. The real issue is one of controlling content *creation* and distribution. What the RIAA/MPAA really want is to make sure that independent content producers HAVE to use their services to be able to publish. They are the middlemen, and they want to stay that way. Allowing artists to publish directly to consumers is their worst nightmare, regardless if there is an effective payment system or copy co
      • Remember during the dotcom boom the record companies' shares where talked on the grounds that they were originators of content who would benefit from new distribution channels? it looks auite amusing now but at the time it was very hard to persuade investors otherwise.

        That said I do not think they can stop the change, unless legislators are even more stupid/venal than I thought. What they can do is slow it down to give themselves a few more years of profits.
  • No, not that survival show.

    If Bittorrent had been around for 40 years instead of 4, maybe all those lost episodes of Dr. Who that vanished when someone threw them away would be recoverable off of someone's hard drive.
  • by Maestro4k ( 707634 ) on Thursday June 02, 2005 @11:57AM (#12705865) Journal
    "People assume that because it's open to everyone there'll be this mass movement of people making quality content that everyone can access, and I don't think that's true."
    I don't think this is what anyone's assuming. The reality is that whatever content is out there that has an audience (or even just someone who wants to promote it) will end up showing up on Torrents. This is already happening, episodes of TV shows go up shortly after airing for instance.

    So no we don't assume that quality content will be made just to put on BitTorrent, but was can already safely say that all quality content will end up there, whether it's legal or not. Smart content producers will try to tap into this, it's an enourmous audience after all. I expect we'll see more of the same from the MPAA though, instead of trying to adapt to the new technology they'll just continue to sue everyone instead. What a waste of money.

  • RSS + Bittorrent (Score:4, Informative)

    by taskforce ( 866056 ) on Thursday June 02, 2005 @11:58AM (#12705875) Homepage
    Bittorrent and RSS together actually make an excellent subscription broadcasting solution. An excellent example of which is Kedora. [kedora.net]

    Kedora lets you subscribe to a number of shows (including MS's Channel 9) and you're alerted by RSS whenever a new show comes out. You then click the link in the RSS and it downloads the show via bittorrent. If somebody could create a totally integrated solution with an iTunes style frontend (I'm thining in the playlists sidebar have all the subscribed shows) and then release good shows on it in decent quality without DRM then I would actually pay good money for a subscription to this service in the same was as people subscribe to cable and sattelite TV.

    • That's actually what I did with the RSS plugin for azureus while BTEfnet was still up. It would automagically grab the shows I was watching as they came out. Went to Mexico for a week and a half holiday, and had the shows I missed already downloaded and ready to watch.
  • by Pecisk ( 688001 ) on Thursday June 02, 2005 @11:59AM (#12705884)
    And that's it. There is simple answer to all that - of coarse, I don't protect copyright infrightement - BUT there is simple rule and it sounds like that - people who CAN and WANT to pay for your product (movie, music, media, game, etc.), they WILL. Those who can't, will stick with 'piracy'.

    It is simple as that.
  • The relatively obscure program has spawned a global following in online forums, internet relay chat channels and fan sites.

    Considering how much the big conglomerates (TV and Movies) spend to secure your attention, a show capturing everyone's attention through somehting like BitTorrent scares the bejeebers ought of them. It means that they can't just slap something together and, "since its the only thing on..." expect to keep an audience. It means that in order to be successful they are going to have to take risks and provide a high level of quality in what they do. I think the pirating card they keep playing is more mcguffin (sp?) than anything. What they really want to avoid is having to be creative, innovative, and responsible to their audience.

  • I thought the "other" side was the warez side, and "this" side was the legitimate-use side.

    That makes me sad.
  • Bittorrent just lets average people publish large files to big audiences.

    The big media people are really saying that they don't want people to be able to do that. If bittorrent is bad, then letting average people publish to large audiences is bad.

    I can understand why the media companies are saying that. Piracy is a big problem for them, and they have business models that depend at least in part on being able to control distribution.

    But I think we have to stand firm on the idea that letting average peop
  • See Kelly vs. Arriba [uscourts.gov], the appellate decision that established that "thumbnail images" in search engines are "fair use" under copyright law.

    So a "video search engine" which displayed low-rez videos with low-bit-rate audio might be permissible. That would actually be useful for sites that sell DVDs of old and foreign movies.

    • I don't think you think they would allow you to show the whole video? The thing with thumbnails is that you can't show less than one picture you know what I mean 1 frame is all you have. I think it will be like audio where you can use 30 second clips. Thats how it works with songs right?

      I could be wrong.
  • So the "upside" (legit trading) is the "other" side?
    The the "downside" (illegal trading) is the original side?
  • Have a customized password-based BT client which will connect to your subscription-based BT tracker.

    Why didn't I think about this?
  • You know, I naively had the idea when I read the title of the article in Wired that it might be about distributing Linux with BitTorrent, or something else legal. I should have known better. Wired is a sellout... any tech magazine with articles for vodka and ads for Parade magazine (in Wired magazine--advertising for their competitors?! whatever...) with the caption "Ever seen a magazine decode the digital world?" is a tech magazine that has lost its way.

  • One-Sided Attack (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ShoobieRat ( 829304 )
    Again there is a push to attack the P2P application. We hear this more than anything.

    So when do we start hearing more about companies moving their attacks to the source of the problem? The movies don't spontaneously appear in P2P search queues. Someone had to take a movie and convert it to a share-able format, and stuff it up on the P2P networks.

    If you ask me, that should be the major focus of the industry. BT has legal uses. Either way, all the companies are doing by attacking BT (and any other P2P app
  • Legal or Illegal is just a society's opinion. Posters above claim that popularity doesn't equate to legal.

    That's true.

    However, society's opinion can change, sometimes overnight. What was illegal yesterday may be completely legal tomorrow if the majority demands it.

    There is no Universal Moral Code stating that creating your own original work by fansubbing a broadcast and distributing it to people unable to receive it otherwise is, or will always be, illegal. As a result, I always use those terms w

  • This is a kind of advertising that directly benefits shows that some people will find worthwhile.

    For the crappy stuff, Bittorrent is very harmful, since it illustrates just how crappy the stuff is before you actually buy.

    So, Battlestar Galactica (the new one) profitted greatly, but The Hulk (more precisely the studio's potential profits) was greatly harmed.

    So, the problem with bittorrent (again, from the studio's point of view) is that it interferes with their ability to profit from viewer's ignorance
  • "fans of the Japanese anime series Naruto regularly post translated episodes of the show to BitTorrent.."

    My buddy who helps me maintain our gaming servers used to grab these episodes and then create english subtitles for them and then destribute them using bitorrent and our gaming server as a master seed.

    It was always kind of a side project for him as he was a big fan of the series (anime soap opera basically) and wanted to share it with other friends, I believe he even had a dedicated IRC channel for the
  • by Vandil X ( 636030 ) on Thursday June 02, 2005 @12:27PM (#12706137)
    Back in the old days of console gaming, we had to buy cartidges and insert those cartidges into our consoles in order to play games.

    The cartidges weren't cheap, either.

    So we used a few unique ways to help make an informed purchase:
    1. Rent the game from a video store.
    2. Borrow your friend's cartridge.
    3. Read game reviews in your trusted game magazine.
    There was no "downloading" of these games possible. And certainly no burning ISOs to discs to "try" a game.

    We had to buy the game (or at least incur the expense of renting it).

    People today are using BT to download games for their modern consoles and PCs. Instead of relying on game reviews and rentals, they're making their own digital duplicates and then deciding if it's worth their money.

    That's not how it's supposed to work.

    You either make an informed decision or gamble. Either way, you pay for the game.
    • You either make an informed decision or gamble

      Would that this was the modus operandi of the sellers as well...

      When did the idea of risk become unacceptable to businesses? Why is it the customer who shoulders the burden of risking whether a product is any good or not?
    • Quote:

      That's not how it's supposed to work.

      How can you assert this? The free market is just that free to do as it pleases. Right now the RIAA/MPAA are using their money to make the market less free; attempting to force hardware providers to include hardware that the customer do not want/need, increasing the copyright time far past anyone should reasonably expect to profit from a single work, and those are just two. The free market it reacting to this. The RIAA/MPAA have been investing more resourc

  • I know that sci-fi released the pilot episode (or was it the miniseries, I don't remember) online for free, but I wish other networks would wake up and let people buy season passes to certain shows. If they did that, I would cancel my cable in a minute (which is of course, the reason why they won't do it).

    As it is, the two main shows I download are Dr. Who and Call For Help, neither of which are available in the US. If they were on my cable, I would watch them, but since they aren't this is the only way
  • Are there any website hosting legal anime bittorrents? I'm looking for romantic comedy instead of DragonBallZ clones. :P
  • It's true much anime licensing and popularity in America - indeed the whole American Anime industry - stems from the free availability of fansubs and the BitTorrent swarms that help distribute them, but Naruto was not one of them. Naruto was clearly destined for a long-running anime series and inevitable licensing in America since about volume 2 of the manga, whether or not the fansubs were ever made. It is, dare I say it, the next Dragonball Z. In fact it'll be on Toonami in the fall. If only one anime

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