Nokia Announces Patent Support to the Linux Kernel 243
Mictian writes "In conjunction with the introduction of Nokia's Linux Handheld mentioned earlier today, Nokia Corporation announced today that it allows all its patents to be used in the further development of the Linux Kernel. Nokia says, that it believes that open source software communities, like open standards, foster innovation and make an important contribution to the creation and rapid adaptation of technologies. And that the investment made by so many individuals and companies in creating and developing the Linux Kernel and other open source software deserve a framework of certainty."
Good game Nokia! (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd like to be the first to applaud Nokia. This certainly will win many people over into development circles with their technology and without the fear of litigation that's obvious within OSS development, this will welcome innovation, change and support in ways that aren't available to the traditional software company.
The above statement made in bold is what worries me, however. What kind of allowance by way of announcement will be made for allowing certain new functionality? Is this a COA statement made so that they can keep their investors/company happy and alive or something else?
Re:Good game Nokia! (Score:3, Interesting)
sure, this is a step, but it's very small. i would give them a lot of credit if they came out and said "we're never going to sue anyone infringing on our software patents"
Re:Good game Nokia! (Score:2, Interesting)
It's one thing to say "I forgive your for killing 5 people."
It's yet another to forgive someone for all the killing they might do in the future along with who they might kill.
What would you do as a business?
As long as they issue a statement like this once in a while we won't get to far into something we can't easily get out of.
Personaly though, I think Nokia is just trying to fend of the WinCE folks by attracting "us". Good job N. In your fa
Re:Good game Nokia! (Score:3)
Re:Good game Nokia! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Good game Nokia! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Good game Nokia! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Good game Nokia! (Score:2)
Patent law is another matter.
If they decide to prosecute any use of linux for patent infringement, that has nothing to do with the GPL.
Re:Good game Nokia! (Score:2)
Re:Good game Nokia! (Score:2)
Re:Good game Nokia! (Score:2, Funny)
Sign me up as a beta tester, my size is 44!
Re:Good game Nokia! (Score:2)
Then, when Nok
Is it irrevocably? (Score:4, Interesting)
I have the impression that they made the mistake to let the PR droids announce this without letting technical and/or legal people have the last word.
Another thing is that they are silently pushing software patents, something that is still being debated in Europe (and it looks we might just not end up with some abomination like in the US). Without swpats, their move would have been without substance.
Re:Is it irrevocably? (Score:2)
yet to rtfa
If you did rtfa, you would see this: Nokia, therefore, issues the legally binding Patent Statement, which has been posted on its website at www.nokia.com/iprstatements [nokia.com].
... which, in turn, says this: Nokia hereby commits not to assert any of its Patents (as defined herein below) against any Linux Kernel (as defined herein below) existing as of 25 May 2005.
So it is irrevocable, but only covers the kernel as of today.
Re:Good game Nokia! (Score:2, Interesting)
Any kernel modified by someone else (RedHat, gentoo-sources,
If mainline includes patented ideas, they will go into the modified distribution-kernels as well.
They can (could) be sued.
Re:Good game Nokia! (Score:2)
Re:Good game Nokia! (Score:5, Insightful)
You can't take a routine from the kernel and use it in some other GPL'd program, because Nokia's Patent Statement would not apply. That sort of defeats one (at least one!) of the purposes of the GPL, doesn't it? What about code that starts out in some other GPL'd program, like emacs or kde? It's definitely not covered by their Patent Statement, unless it's already in the kernel, and then only for use in the kernel.
As for their reserving the right to enforce patents against future kernel features, I'm sure that boils down to something like this: ``If Linux starts to cut into our revenues, watch out!''
As I've said in another post, what we need from them is an irrevokable license to use their patents in any GPL'd program. This isn't that, but it costs us nothing, so we should say thanks, and get on with what we were doing, because nothing has changed.
Before the announcement, they weren't suing anyone, though they might have chosen to in the future. After the announcement, they aren't suing anyone, though they might choose to in the future. It is a nice goodwill gesture, but nothing has changed.
Re:Good game Nokia! (Score:2)
This doesn't apply to all GPL'd programs everywhere, but only to the GPL'd program which they distribute, and only if it includes the particular patent in question. That is, if they distribute the kernel, but not kde, they can't enforce the patent against the kernel, but could enforce the same patent aga
doesn't worry me (Score:2)
Software patents are an unfortunate fact of life right now. Nokia has done pretty much the best one can under the circumstances. I think one should applaud them for that.
Re:Good game Nokia! (Score:3, Insightful)
This would seem like a bit of PR aimed primarily at that process. They're trying to say to the EU politicians: "We (want | need | will-go-out-of-business-without) software patents, and we know you've had lots of complaints from the open-source crowd, but look, their little toy that is generating so much interest among you is safe from us. So if you can now please ignore the open-source crowd's complaints ab
Which patents is linux infringing upon? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm personally wondering which patents they claim were being infringed upon. Are there legitimate patent concerns, or is this Nokia trying to position themselves for something else? Neither the liked article or the press release (http://www.nokia.com/iprstatements [nokia.com]) mention any specific patents.
Re:Which patents is linux infringing upon? (Score:2)
Re:Which patents is linux infringing upon? (Score:2)
Re:Which patents is linux infringing upon? (Score:4, Interesting)
Nokia is indeed up to something else... (Score:5, Insightful)
Nor alas is this just PR spin to make them look good. Nokia is lobbying hard to get almost unlimited software patenting allowed in Europe. This press release is part of a game to fool the parliament into believing that open source is not threatened by patents and to make them feel more comfortable. Right now the Finnish MEP's in particular face difficult choices - Nokia is almost "Finland the company" and Linus is "Finland the rockstar" , and they say exactly the reverse about patents.
Re:Nokia is indeed up to something else... (Score:2)
Patents and copyright are different beasts. You can write a piece of code which violates someone else's patent regardless of the copyright and license involved.
Re:Nokia is indeed up to something else... (Score:4, Informative)
The GPL says: "[..] if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies [..] through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program."
Nokia has to licence its patents, or people who receive the software through it are unable to redistribute that software. That would not satisfy the GPL, hence, they would not be able to distribute the software.
yes, but who cares? (Score:2)
Contrast that with Sun's recent patent grant. Sun is shipping both Solaris and Linux systems, but they grant their patents only for Solaris, not Linux. That's presumably because they are the primary user of Solaris, but their competitors would
Kind of vague first baby step (Score:5, Interesting)
It only applies to current patents, and (IIRC) current interpretations of those patents.
But at least it sounds good enough to whack Redmond.
Re:Kind of vague first baby step (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Kind of vague first baby step (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Kind of vague first baby step (Score:3, Informative)
Not the point (Score:3, Insightful)
This Nokia announcement is worthless from a practical code point of view. It may be good marketing PR, but it will add no code to the kernel.
Re:Kind of vague first baby step (Score:3, Insightful)
Eh, not quite.
It means that if they wrote it into the kernel, and it was in the right stable kernel before 25 MAy 2005, they need not fear litigation. Anything which didn't make the magic deadline in the magic line of kernels still carries the same old fear of litigation it always did.
This is a free pass for some (but not all)
Re:Kind of vague first baby step (Score:2)
A scary thought is that they (or their successors etc..) can go to the judge with the line "we gave them all those patents, but they want everything, not fair"
I believe they meant good, but they need to clarify it. A simple "we will never sue linux ke
Re:Kind of vague first baby step (Score:2)
So if you grant your patents to one GPL project, you're granting your patents to any GPL project.
IANAL, of course, so I may be falsly assuming that a logical argument would stand up legally.
Wait... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Wait... (Score:2)
No. (Score:2)
Nokia won't let us use their super-duper patent that revolutionizes the industry, so we plan on creating a dummy FOSS project which just does enough to allow us to use their patent as a FOSS project but we plan on doing everything else as a closed source project!
*nelson*HA HA!*/nelson*
As Bruce Perens said about IBM's similar action: (Score:5, Insightful)
Is it in lawyer-compatible writing?
Is it written in a way that they cannot duck out of it Rambus style?
asdf (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:asdf (Score:3, Interesting)
I hope it is some painful, but strong change in trend for Nokia. They won't change their attitude in one day, proposing software patents in EU, but let's cross fingers and hope for the best.
Re:asdf (Score:2, Interesting)
Yay Nokia (Score:3, Funny)
At least, until we find out that it's all a bunch of marketing doublespeak.
Patents (Score:5, Funny)
Much ado about nothing (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Much ado about nothing (Score:5, Informative)
One might argue that the GPL's prohibition of "further restrictions" applies to patents, so maybe you can't take a piece of GPL'ed software and add code to it that you have a patent on (assuming that you release the new version at all, of course), but IANAL, and it's wholly unclear to me ATM whether that really would be true or not.
But outside of that, there's nothing in the GPL that deals with patents (unless I overlooked something important, of course, but that goes without saying).
Re:Much ado about nothing (Score:2)
This is exactly what I was getting at. The GPL does not allow for anything under it's copyright to propagate anything that would restrict anyone downstream (outside of GPL restrictions obviously!)
Re:Much ado about nothing (Score:2)
Er, yes it does.
Have you actually read the GPL?
Re:Much ado about nothing (Score:2)
Kind of (Score:2)
This is a step in the right direction, but the real goal is the elimination of software patents. The European parliament is likely to vote for this, but national
Property . . . (Score:3, Insightful)
In short, property is a positive right: reinforced exclusivity. I agree that Anarcho-Capitalists tend to lean upon natural law, but natural law doesn't tell you what one is, but rather (should it be a valid mode of analysis), what it should be. Ronald Coase wrote about this; brief analysis: property exists where the investment gains outweigh the costs of exclusivity (the thing in question cannot be readily put to its best use).
I have to say that hidden within your
Syncing (Score:3, Insightful)
Nokia: Bringing the power... (Score:2, Funny)
Where can I get an ISO, I'm switching now.
Just Linux? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Just Linux? (Score:2)
The code concerned by Nokia patents will just have to use threads instead I guess...
My guess (Score:2)
Re:My guess (Score:2)
Most interesting part to me (Score:5, Interesting)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that this means that if you are a Linux developer, use one of Nokia's patents as regards to this agreement, then turn around and try to sue LInux (or IBM, natch) for violating *your* patents, then you lose the ability to use Nokia's patents so Nokia can go after *you*.
If nothing else, it will make some companies who would sue Linux in a Rambus "We'll help develop the technology by committee then sue anybody who tries to actually use it without our permission" from (allegedly, like SCO) letting their technology be added into Linux, release a kernel, then start suing companies for violating their IP. With Nokia's clause here, they'll have to make certain that nothing of what they did includes Nokia's patents.
Phew. Interesting how complex things have to get just to cover your ass thanks to a exploitive lawsuit happy companies.
Patent Nuclear War (or Nookular War) (Score:3, Insightful)
I respectfully believe you are wrong.
Nokia wrote...
Here is what I think it means.
Let's suppose there is some third party. Let's call this hypotheti
Re:Patent Nuclear War (or Nookular War) (Score:2)
Re:Patent Nuclear War (or Nookular War) (Score:2)
Sorry but we have to reject this (Score:5, Insightful)
Nokia is one of the main proponents of software patents in the European debate regarding this subject. The only answer is: we don't want your parents, we don't want any (software) patents in existance at all. Anything other would be very hypocritical.
Re:Sorry but we have to reject this (Score:2)
But let's be honest here - is good to see the change in trend. World won't change in one day, and software patents are here to stay for some time. But for Europe let's hope they simply won't go in serious action. Let's do our best.
Re:Sorry but we have to reject this (Score:2)
From Nokia's IP statement [nokia.com]:
How do you plan to reject that? Are you going to take them to court and try to force them to sue kernel developers or Linux users? Since there is no quid pro quo required,
Re:Sorry but we have to reject this (Score:2)
especially some politicians might be fooled by such moves; one of their concerns regarding software patents is the damage they might do to open source software. PR stunts like this could make them think that this is not the case. that must be avoided. it must remain clear that software patents are, in the long term, of utmost danger to OSS.
Re:Sorry but we have to reject this (Score:2)
Absolutely! But still, there's nothing to reject; there's no offer.
We should respond with something like: ``This is a harmless, meaningless gesture from Nokia. Open source and Libre software developers still need a useful commitment on patents from them.''
Or, perhaps, if we want to sound a little nastier and more cynical: ``Since Nokia couldn't find any lawsuits they wanted to file, they've made a big noise
Re:Sorry but we have to reject this (Score:4, Informative)
Nokia seems absolutely pro-swpat. Their patent department has done lots of lobbying in conferences and in the European Parliament. We encountered the head of their IP department, Tim Frain, in Bournemouth in summer 2002. Participants at the conference easily demonstrated that his arguments are economic nonsense. http://swpat.ffii.org/gasnu/nokia/index.en.html [ffii.org]
Campaigners are opposed by representatives from large companies, including Nokia, which the FFII reports is engaged in energetic Pro-Patent Lobbying Efforts. Nokia argues that software patents "provide incentives to undertake research and development in Europe, and to promote licensing and technology transfer". http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/13/eu_patent
Meanwhile, lobbyists in favour of software patents are also gearing up
for the fight. FFII has obtained a copy of a round-robin letter being
circulated by Nokia's Tim Frain (Nokia/Southwood) and Dany Ducoulombier
(Nokia/Brussels) for pro-patent signatures before April 8th. The letter
calls on ministers to drop their objections, and to support a draft text
issued by the Irish Presidency on March 17th. http://lwn.net/Articles/79930/ [lwn.net]
Natch, they're a hardware company. (Score:4, Interesting)
They reserve the right to snatch that back, such as if the Linux kernel suddenly acquires the ability to become hardware and run itself.
Or if they ever start to "see themselves as a software company" or believe they're "really about consulting" or some other such dreck, then they'll snatch back their patents. They'd also be on the road to corporate oblivion, but that would be independent of allowing FOSS use of their patents.
Keep making the neat gizmos, Nokia.
when is a kernel not a kernel? (Score:4, Insightful)
Nokia and Torvalds... (Score:5, Funny)
good for the wrong reasons (Score:2, Interesting)
However, there is one very nice paragraph:
Re:good for the wrong reasons (Score:2)
Read the small print before hyping (Score:3, Insightful)
First, they don't even assert that anything is covered by their patents.
Second, they assert a right to start acting up anyway if something that is covered by their patents ends up in the kernel.
Third, even if some patented thing in Linux was covered by this license, its use is only authorized in the Linux kernel as published on kernel.org (not even vendor- or self-patched versions), which is pretty useless.
Fourth, the above condition is incompatible with GPL's clause 7. It follows that if Nokia makes a credible patent claim on something that is in the kernel, then nobody has a valid license to distribute the kernel anymore until the patent issue is sorted out in the usual manner (that is, by getting a GPL-compatible license or working around it).
To sum it up, it seems they're just trying to shine their shield after bashing in some FFII heads here in the EU.
Nokia gives patents, does linux kern team want em? (Score:2, Insightful)
The Patent Statement (Score:5, Informative)
Legally Binding Commitment Not to Assert Nokia Patents against the Linux Kernel
Patent Statement
Nokia hereby commits not to assert any of its Patents (as defined herein below) against any Linux Kernel (as defined herein below) existing as of 25 May 2005. The aforesaid non-assertion shall extend to any future Linux Kernel to the extent that Nokia does not declare any new functionality embodied in such Linux Kernel to be outside the scope of this Patent Statement. Nokia shall issue such declaration through its website no later than one hundred and twenty (120) days after the official release of such Linux Kernel.
Both of the aforesaid non-assertion commitments are subject to the condition that the party relying on any such commitment and its Affiliates do not assert any of their patents, or patents they control or have a third party assert any patent, against any Linux Kernel.
Nokia's Patent Statement is not an assurance that any of its Patents validly covers the Linux Kernel, is enforceable, or that the Linux Kernel does not infringe patents or other intellectual property rights of any third party.
No other rights except those expressly stated in this Patent Statement shall be deemed granted or received by implication, or estoppel, or otherwise.
Definitions:
"Affiliate"
of a party means any legal entity greater than fifty percent (50%) of whose outstanding shares or securities representing the right to vote for the election of directors or other managing authority are, or greater than fifty percent (50%) of whose equity interest is, now or hereafter, owned or controlled, directly or indirectly by that party, but only as long as such ownership or control exists.
"Nokia"
means Nokia Corporation and its Affiliates.
"Linux Kernel"
means any version of the Linux kernel which (i) is released as "stable version", (ii) is licensed under the "GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE Version 2, June 1991 for the Linux operating system" and (iii) has been published by the Kernel.org Organization, Inc on its Linux Kernel Archive website at www.kernel.org.
"Patent"
means any such claims, including without limitation, method and product claims, of any and all patents and patent applications with a priority date of 31 December 2005 or earlier, now owned or hereafter acquired by Nokia, which are infringed by any Linux Kernel that exists as of 25 May 2005 or by any functionality embodied in any future Linux Kernel to the extent that Nokia has not declared as described hereinabove such functionality to be outside the scope of this Patent Statement. For the avoidance of doubt, Patent shall not include any claims for enabling technologies that are not themselves embodied in the Linux Kernel (e.g., without limitation, hardware or semiconductor manufacturing technology as such).
Re:The Patent Statement (Score:2)
This seems a little confusing/concerning. I think its well intentioned but if the code is licenseed as GPL how can it be under the restrictions that these claims only apply to the kernel. Suppose I want to go use kernel code in my own open source code and this code is covered by the patent, all of the sudden the GPL code is not GPL'able.
I really don't think this has alot of legal teeth - I think its more just them saying that in spirit, they're not going to sue us. Lets
Whats to keep Nokia... (Score:3, Interesting)
(for those that dont know, Rambus put in a bunch of ideas into the JEDEC council for DRAM (SDRAM, DDR, etc) and some got used. They then turned around later and submarrined the DRAM industry by demanding payment on SDRAM, DDR, etc. They sued and lost I believe, but have won or settled other cases regarding anti-competitive tactics by the rest of the industry to stamp them out.)
Nokia has an interesting view on patents (Score:3, Informative)
This can't be the whole truth (Score:5, Insightful)
Why then is Nokia agressively lobbying for software patents in Europe?
MOD PARENT UP! (Score:5, Insightful)
So, I do not really believe that they do not plan to use SW patents offensively.
Re:Nokia has an interesting view on patents (Score:2)
Re:Nokia has an interesting view on patents (Score:2)
Megacorp, Inc. may say that it will only use its patents defensively, and maybe it will--today. But maybe tomorrow its stock is owned by a different set of shareholders; perhaps they aren't quite as secure with Megacorp's market po
There's one condition.. (Score:2)
This seems odd? Possibly due to IBM patents? (Score:3, Interesting)
For instance, it seems very clearly to me that Nokia is saying that the Linux kernel is currently violating one or more of their patents. I did not search deeper, but I, for one, would like to know what patents they claim are being infringed?
Sure, it seems nice of them to say it is OK to use those items, but something about this smells fishy. I think I'll wait for the other shoe to drop.
Another though occurred to me. Has anyone done an analysis to see if any of the 500 IBM patents are used in the kernel? Could this be in response to that usage (if it exists)? I mean, if they are going to rely on Linux (see the new 770 web tablet), and they think they found patent infringement, then they would be precluded from going after it, because to do so would rescind IBM's permission for Nokia to use IBM's patent(s) that may be in Linux as well. This could just be PR spin to try and make Nokia smell better.
Like I said, I'll wait for the other shoe(s) to drop. I think there is more to this story, and before I am willing to pat Nokia on the back, I want more details.
They have already granted us this and more. (Score:5, Insightful)
So because it is under the terms of the GPL, we are allowed to use patented code from linux (if any) in any other GPL programs. If they say we can not they are breaking the terms of the GPL and must stop distributing linux.
Of course it may be that they have no patents on any code in linux. In that case they can say what they want about how they can be used.
Also, if they do have patents on code in linux and they still impose their terms on it, as well as not being allowed to distribute it themselves they would be able to use their patents to prevent others distributing it unless they removed the patented code.
Software patents suck.
IANAL.
Patent support... finally (Score:2)
List of Nokia Patents (Score:2)
So where are the patents? The closet approximiation of Nokia's patents is this list of 900+ patents: Nokia Software Patents at the European Patent Office (EPO) [ffii.org]. Most are related to mobile data syncing, but a few might be applicable to Linux, such as "ep1432207: Adaptive delayed ACK switching for TCP applications."
This is just a PR stunt! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is just a PR stunt! (Score:2)
they are a big backer of software patents (Score:2)
At least they have a good cop move, unlike microsoft.
Re:Way to go Nokia (Score:5, Interesting)
With respect to new functionality introduced into future Linux Kernel releases, Nokia reserves the right to declare that the Patent Statement shall not apply.
In short, Nokia says "we give you a new toy today, but we can always take it away from you later". Which means neither Linus or anybody else should touch it...
Re:Way to go Nokia (Score:2)
Re:Way to go Nokia (Score:2)
Re:Way to go Nokia (Score:5, Informative)
I think that's not quite true. I think that Nokia has declared that all current infringements are ok, but future infringements are going to be looked at case by case, with the expectation (no guarantees!) that they'll be ok'd.
They lead off with: [nokia.com]
This is a long way from what we need, which is a non-revokable license for use in all GPL'd software. Still, the little they are giving us is non-revokable (I think), and it's more than they had to give us.
There's really not much to touch. It boils down to: ``We won't sue Linus for anything he's done so far.'' There's no requirement for Linus (or anybody else) to reciprocate in any way.
Re:Way to go Nokia (Score:2)
Nokia could stop campaigning in favour of software patents in Europe.
> But [Nokia] are still not a big player in the patent business and they know that
> they might find themselves in a bad position if software patent laws are
> introduced in the EU and strengthened elsewhere.
Nokia's pro-swpat lobying efforts [slashdot.org] say otherwise.
Re:Way to go Nokia (Score:2)
Re:Way to go Nokia (Score:2)
No. That's the point. It's an inch. Nothing changed. People that thought that *now* they can use nokia's patents are mistaken.
What i read from this is: what's done is done. From now on we'll be watching.
Nokia is not giving anything away, most of their software patents up to now will not be considered valid in europe anyway...
But they *are* trying to get EU to accept software patents -- something just doesn't feel right.
Re:Fantastic! (Score:3, Insightful)
This will only be of use to open source developers of the Linux Kernel. It is not for all of Linux.
Re:Fantastic! (Score:2)
And only for the things they've already done. And only if those things were in the right stable kernel as of 25 May 2005. And only if those developers don't try to enforce any of their patents against Nokia.
So, ok, that last one doesn't seem so unreasonable. The first two restrictions make this whole thing a non-event. Before this, no one was undergoing a patent lawsuit from Nokia, though some might have worried about future la