FCC to Push VoIP 911 Requirements 297
maotx writes "Originaly declared a regulation free area, VoIP is going under a new look. With complaints against it, the FCC has decided to move forward with its original plan to require VoIP providers to provide 911 support. This brings up interesting questions on how they're going to know where in the world your VoIP enabled laptop is when you call 911."
Follow the ping packets! (Score:5, Funny)
Traceroute? :p
Re:Follow the ping packets! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Follow the ping packets! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Follow the ping packets! (Score:5, Informative)
Won't work. (Score:4, Informative)
IPv6 would allow you to deduce the geographical location, as the IP address is a function of the logical location, which can then be used to infer the most probable geographical location. However, IPv4 has nothing that allows you to infer location by address. This may actually be the driving force for IPv6, given that none of the other reasons (privacy, addressability, etc) have ever worked with people.
A nice way to stomp VoIP (Score:2)
Re:Follow the ping packets! (Score:3, Insightful)
Granted, calling 911 and having your location show up on a map for the dispatcher is nice, but it isn't necessary.
We already have a great protocol for sending all kinds of information over VoIP lines, including the identity and location of the caller and what their problem is. It's called English.
GPS (Score:4, Interesting)
It's being bundled into cell phones these days for the same purpose.
Just don't bundle it into the computer itself, or the conspiracy theorists may become the conspiracy realists.
Re:GPS (Score:2, Interesting)
And what if I sign up for my VOIP with a canadian company, but primarily use it in the US. Do I need GPS then? Seems to be a blow to US companies if you require it.
Re:GPS (Score:2)
I think the GPS idea won't work, simply because you can't get a reliable signal indoors.
a GPS keyfob could be made for a lot less than $100 in bulk.
I think the 911 requirement is going to be aimed at the VoIP carriers selling ATA units, to replace your primary phone. This would allow them to modify the ATA unit. Now it is possible (likely) the regulation could end up b
Re:GPS (Score:2, Insightful)
If major cell phone manufacturers are doing this already, it doesn't seem like much of an obstacle in the long term for commercial VoIP vendors to issue one with their service, especially if it helps them avoid being sued by its users or penalized by the FCC.
Re:GPS (Score:3, Insightful)
I think the most important part of the question is missing: American
As in United States.
So, you simply won't be able to get VOIP from a US based company... use a foreign one instead.
"Problem" solved.
Re:GPS (Score:2)
"We Don't know what you're talking about. Stop Spreading FUD."
-Sens. Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe, c/o Sprint, Verizon, and Bellsouth
Re:GPS (Score:2)
GPS in cell phones is not used to trace 911 calls. It is used as an accurate timing synchronization device.
Re:GPS (Score:3, Interesting)
"Turning location on will allow the network to detect your position, making some Sprint applications easier to use. Turning location off will hide your location from everyone except 911. Ever if location is turned on in this handset, no service may use your location without your express permission."
and an interesting tidbit I found on google (url http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/EOP/OSTP/html/0053_4.h tml [nara.gov])
" Enhanced-911: The FCC will soon require that all new cellula
Re:GPS (Score:5, Insightful)
What about people who don't want to stick a GPS dongle into their computer? What about people who *forget* to stick in the dongle when they rush to call 911? What about the people who claim to have done those things but haven't actually, and then turn around and sue?
Here's the trouble: It isn't that 911 operator needs to know where you are; you can give that information just fine. The trouble is that your call has to go to a local 911 dispatch center, not a dispatch center 3000 miles away.
If you've ever dealt with 911, then you know that they could never handle rerouting calls. Often it seems that they are barely able to properly dispatch local officers and emergency medical services.
Why do we have 911? People were observed to be stupid. The local police used to just have an emergency number. Doh, people can't remember the number. what to do, what to do... make one number for everyone, everywhere. make a big marketing campaign. yeah.
This whole problem would go away if you just had to give at least an area code as a prefix to dialing 911. Then the call could be routed to a local-state dispatcher. *Now that sounds feasible*.
As for your being beaten to death and you just barely manage to dial 911 and the police only hear the crime and trace the call... well that's sort of a fringe benefit of getting a land-land. Perhaps you should consider that before opting for other solutions.
Do we really all need to be burdened? Can some people just be free to offer bare-bones service?
Do you really want GPS tracking of your location--mandated by the government?
Re:GPS (Score:2)
Now imagine the effectiveness of 911 when you have to also teach the concept of area codes.
Re:GPS (Score:5, Insightful)
Not stupid, just desperately sick and afraid. There is no way to understand the experience until you have been through it yourself, or with your parents, or with your kids.
Re:GPS (Score:2)
Anyways stupid is a broader word than you give it credit: "4. Dazed, stunned, or stupefied." (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=stupid [reference.com])
And don't commit a generalization fallacy. I agree there are times when the simplist solution is ideal and nice, but that isn't a conclusive arguement for imposing a requirement that a particular implementation must be avai
Re:GPS (Score:2)
This whole problem would go away if you just had to give at least an area code as a prefix to dialing 911. Then the call could be routed to a local-state dispatcher. *Now that sounds feasible*.
Re:GPS (Score:3, Informative)
I've used 911 probably around 5 times over the last decade. I can firmly state, that at least for my community, you are utterly wrong.
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:GPS (Score:2)
Cost (Score:2)
Re:GPS (Score:3, Informative)
It should also be noted that some carriers triangulate the possition from the towers, others use handset GPS.
Yeah (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Yeah (Score:2, Insightful)
-- busy signal -- (Score:4, Insightful)
Worse than rape and murder. (Score:2)
Worse? You mean like having their intellectual property rights violated? Wha? Oh. never mind. You must have been reading some RIAA press releases.
Re:-- busy signal -- (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:-- busy signal -- (Score:3, Insightful)
Most cell-phone providers accept 911 calls even from phones that have been 'shut off'.
It's ea
Re:-- busy signal -- (Score:2)
Of course there's a lot of stolen credit card data...
Re:-- busy signal -- (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:For 99% of the time... (Score:2)
Re:For 99% of the time... (Score:2)
When you call 911 the "regular way", you don't get your local coffee shop's 911 service, you get the 911 for your municipality/region. That's most likely the same region as your billing address, unless you travel out of town a lot, as the parent said.
Re:For 99% of the time... (Score:2)
Re:For 99% of the time... (Score:3, Insightful)
You are pedantically correct but completely wrong within the framework of this discussion.
When you call 911 from the local coffee shop, the 911 operator knows you are at the local coffee shop. She may even know where in the building the extension you're on is located. The point is not what 911 call center answers your phone; the point is that the operator sees on screen the exact location of the phone you're calling fr
WHO MODDED THIS TRIPE UP??? (Score:2, Insightful)
VoIP has two benefits or advantages. One advantage is taht it offers dirt cheap longdistance phone service by carrying the calls over the internet.
The other major advantage is that VoIP is completely portable. It is not tied to any specific location. If you can get internet access, you can use VoIP.
So, if you are driving down the highway, passing a truckstop with a wi-fi hotspot, and you decide to use your laptop or palm top computer to place a VoI
That one is not too hard. (Score:2)
As such, all the VoIP software needs to do is report the current IP address, and things will be fine.
Well, except that this won't work with IPv4, as most such systems use NAT to get round the lack of addresses. IPv6, on the other hand, uses IP addresses derived from t
Re:For 99% of the time... (Score:2)
Revenge of the Bells (Score:3, Informative)
With wifi, ssh tunnels and unspecified internal deployment of handsets in a corporation it's ridiculous to expect vonage et al to provide 911 services comparable to the regional bell.
I fully expect 911 calls to end up getting into a frenzy for an incident that is eventually located in bombay.
Re:Revenge of the Bells (Score:2)
Re:Revenge of the Bells (Score:4, Funny)
If it walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, it damn well better taste like a duck.
No location requirment (Score:5, Interesting)
Vonage has 911 service (Score:3, Informative)
It's not real 911 because it connects to an intermediary service that then connects you to the real 911.
http://www.vonage.com/help_knowledgeBase_article.
Install Option (Score:3, Insightful)
"To enable 911 service, click YES.
Please enter your location below"
Just don't make the default "Off."
Re:Install Option (Score:2)
"Well, I live in Jonestown on 1st and Main...
And so on. No one is going to update their location every time they move, so you'd have to specify the location when making the call...which is hard
User Problems (Score:2, Informative)
Regardless,
Dumb design (Score:3, Insightful)
If you make it look the same then how will they know the difference? If a neighbour picks up the phone to dial how will they know?
People using technology should not have to be burdened with how it works, and most people don't know how their stuff works (do you know how lag and advance work in your car's ignition?). Most people see their PC + Google + internet + the rest of the web
Ask... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Ask... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Ask... (Score:2)
It can be very helpful if there is an address listing on, or near, the telephone. They do something similar here with fire alarms. There is a placard that says to call 911 and lists the address.
Re:Ask... (Score:2)
Re:Ask... (Score:2)
Require to register... (Score:2, Interesting)
It will still be an issue for people who travel with their
Re:Require to register... (Score:2)
And there we have it... (Score:3, Insightful)
Wire line services can provide 911 location service because the phones are physically wired to a specific location. A number cannot move without the phone company knowing exactly where it has moved to. This is not possible with the present incarnation of VoIP. In fact, the only way that reliable 911 location service will ever be possible is if every VoIP device has a GPS receiver in it and transmits the location information when the VoIP terminal registers with the PBX. Any other way WILL fail.
This will require an all new VoIP implementation/protocol, as well as new VoIP equipment to make it work. Now, I just have to figure out how to make an ATA with GPS receiver embedded in it receive the GPS signal while under a desk indoors.
If VoIP is regulated, the baby Bells will won it. Do you feel pown3d?
Re:And there we have it... (Score:2)
Not entirely true. Ever wonder why the operator asks you to confirm your address when you call 911 (at least, they have the three times I've had to call)? Because they have phone company data, but that data isn't always up-to-the-minute.
One solution, which many other posters have offered, is to require VOIP providers to maintain the same location data on customers that normal telcos do now
Not really (Score:2)
Just have a file with your information sent to to the VOIP 911 system. If it's out of date, sucks to be you.
no, I don't feel pown3d. I eel like some people are trying to get some sort of emergence services set up for an emerging technology. It's called forward thinking. I actually try to stay involved in politics, so I can write letters and discuss this sort of thing wi
Dangerous curves ahead.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Trust me, once they get even one regulation passed regarding the use or configuration of the Internet, it WILL snowball...
Easy... (Score:3, Insightful)
1) Use the callerid # to lookup the address in a database which is *required* to be accurate. By law. This would be a step big companies take care of for you, transparently, while the smaller of us who buy our numbers from places like voicepulse would fill out a form when we purchase a number
2) e911. Make it universal.
I like option 1 myself, but I could see logistical problems, not to mention abuse problems, were it not handled correctly.
VoIP e911 works for me (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:VoIP e911 works for me (Score:2)
Re:VoIP e911 works for me (Score:5, Informative)
Today, someone brought in chili, which was excellent. Someone else ordered a sack of hamburgers from the joint down the road (which were delivered, and were extraordinarily tasty). People were generally enjoying their servitude in that small, locked-down room.
On top of the dispatch console was some eccentric 911 industry trade rag. The cover story was about VOIP, and how it currently relates to 911 service as we know it.
Therefore, they're aware of it, and the possible problems it might have.
The 911 phone nearly never rings. And, at least today, it only rang once for an emergency. The rest of the calls (a half dozen, or so) were all from MCI, who were running tests on a new-ish overlay area code.
Every now and then, the radio would make some noise that the dispatcher would respond to.
The dispatchers spent the rest of their day waiting for the phone to ring and shooting the shit with eachother.
So, just to reassure anyone who's wary:
Go ahead and test your 911 service. Just make sure that you've informed them beforehand, and don't waste their time with superflous verbiage.
And if, for some reason, it doesn't work: Call them back, and explain that the test failed. If you think you can fix the problem, tell them that you might like to attempt another test later. Thank them, and hang up.
Believe me: Those are real people on the other end of the line. They're happy to invest a few minutes of their time, if that means a slim possibly saving someone's life.
They want this stuff to work correctly at least as much as you do.
blurring the lines between phone and just voice (Score:5, Insightful)
If they start classifying things like Skype as a voice telecommunications service and requiring 911 calls to function, then what's next? 911 requirements for Teamspeak?
Maybe a VoIP "phone" is one which can place a call which eventually gets circuit switched on one end, even if 99% of the transit is packet switched.
It seems to me that what really needs to happen is a revamping of the 911 system to deal with the portability of numbers. You want 911? Fine, go somewhere and configure your address any time you move the phone around. When you dial 911, it transmits your entered address. Possibly the hardware/software acting as your phone also monitors the MAC address of its default gateway after you change the address associated; if the MAC address changes but the address has not, a warning goes out to emergency services that notes that there is reason to believe the address may not be completely reliable (and thus, hopefully an emergency operator can confirm it with you when you call).
Lots of little things rely on the phone network. My house alarm, for example, will freak out completely if I cut my phone service entirely, because it uses the phone line to keep in touch with the alarm monitoring service.
Re:blurring the lines between phone and just voice (Score:3, Insightful)
Here's the clearest line. If calling 911 makes sense (you can dial numbers as if it were a regular telephone), then calling 911 should work.
I'm pretty sure Teamspeak doesn't connect you to the public telephone network, so 911 is not a requirement. SkypeOut does. You can call most local, long-distance, and international numbers, so 911 serv
Re:blurring the lines between phone and just voice (Score:2)
You're missing the point: If the adapter is portable then how does the 911 system know where it is, and therefore where to send the cops, ambulance, etc.?
The answer is that it's impossible. You'd have to expect the user to update the location information and we all know you can't count on users.
Re:blurring the lines between phone and just voice (Score:2)
Call 911! Call 911! I'm being gangked!
Re:blurring the lines between phone and just voice (Score:3, Interesting)
If Joe User can call a real phone, then why shouldn't Joe User expect 911 when they dial 911?
Because Joe User was explicitly told not to expect it when he signed up for the service.
I suspect that the final solution will be that 911 centers will start working together, and VoIP providers will provide a meta-911 service that accepts a "roaming" user's call, gets information about that user, and their location, whats wrong, and then forwards the user information and call to the correct 911 call center for
A way to handle this. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:A way to handle this. (Score:2)
More regulation. Ugh (Score:2)
On the other hand, even if it is reflected in higher rates I am not going to compain about the results. I was contemplating getting the cheapest possible land line (limited calls, etc) for my PBX to allow 911. Any increase in rates will most likely be less than the $10-15 I was going to h
So what? (Score:2)
Re:So what? (Score:2)
Definitely a good thing (Score:2, Interesting)
1. Calls from cellphones to 911 typically go the State Police dispatcher who will then have to contact the local dispatcher to actually send someone (other then the state police) to the caller. This takes extra time and puts one more person in the game of 'telephone' that is played from 911 requester to 911 provider.
2. Adding VOIP to the State police dispatcher will make them even more
Re:Definitely a good thing (Score:3, Interesting)
I haven't cared much about 911, I have a cell phone, my wife has a cell phone, etc. But we have a 4 month old son. I am sure he will be old enough to call 911 before he will be old enough to giv
Simple solution (Score:2, Insightful)
An interesting dilemma for roaming VoIP (Score:3, Interesting)
The copper wire switched networks have specific addresses they can link to nodes because the network was proprietary and controlled. Now that the network (the internet) is open, it doesn't yet have this feature that can tie an IP address, particularly a roaming IP address, to a location.
The only thing I can think of right now are GPS locators on all phones which have a frequency only the 911 operators can access... but that could be abused way too easily.
For now, asking the VoIPs to provide 911 service like vonage does is enough for the time being, but soon they'll have to solve this problem for VoIP roamers, and that will require a "think-outside-the-box" solution. As VoIP evolves, 911 will have to be completely redesigned.
Re:An interesting dilemma for roaming VoIP (Score:2)
Can't people just say their address loud? (Score:2)
911 on VoIP CAN work (Score:3, Informative)
How about international ones? (Score:2)
Stupid misunderstanding of the new world (Score:4, Interesting)
But what do you regulate? SIP phones? There is a SIP phone in every copy of Windows XP, and freely available ones for all OSs. They can all register with proxies and make VoIP calls. They have to pay to go out to the PSTN right now, though.
Instead, they are putting the regs if the service gives you a phone number for incoming calls. Ie. it's backwards. If you can _receive_ calls (without necessarily the ability to make them) from the PSTN, then you have to be able to make an outgoing call to 911.
But anything can be a phone now. It can look like an old phone or it can be a piece of software. Anything can be set up to receive calls, or make them, or both. Or not talk to the PSTN at all. Or talk to it in limited ways (for example there are dial-in numbers that let you call from the PSTN and then enter a Free World Dialup number, making every FWD phone able to receive a call from the PSTN.)
This is a dangerous rathole. Accept that voice != emergency service path and find a better way.
Re:cell-phones? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:cell-phones? (Score:2)
Re:cell-phones? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:cell-phones? (Score:2)
Re:cell-phones? (Score:2)
E911 [webopedia.com] will fix that cell-phone problem.
Re:cell-phones? (Score:2)
Simply make the tracking beacon optional and not have it turned on bydefault
So say you are a last hiker you just click on the "Flare" button(or whatever you want to call it) and it sends turns on the tracking allowing emergency services to find and rescue you. same if your say someone with only enough energy to tdial and say help a quick action(yet to be defined) could send out the tracking info for you and a predefined emerg
Re:cell-phones? (Score:2)
Re:Ease (Score:2)
Re:Ease (Score:3)
Let's not get all crazy and impractical with GPS locators etc, trying to cover every wierd case. I'm willing to bet the portability feature of VOIP isn't used very often. In truly mobile settings I think most people use mobile phones.
Re:Ease (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly. It just REALLY complicates things. Cell phones still don't all have GPS locators, and I'd say cell phones are far more common than VoIP users.
It also pushes the issue of how far can you really take this? We use a VoIP-based PBX in the office, and I can access it fro
Re:Ease (Score:2, Funny)
Well, the VoIP people can simply resuse that, ammended to "Don't leave home."
KFG
Some already offer this. (Score:3, Informative)
I am quite sure that cable, DSL and regul
Re:cellphones? (Score:2)
so they can atleast tell in which area of a city you are in .
Re:cellphones? (Score:2)
Re:User responibility? (Score:2)
Outrageous? No. Impractical? Yes.
Putting aside the technical issues (such as if you are travelling and using a laptop and there is [currently] no GPS or similar technology in VoIP protocols or hardware) there is the social issue:
America's Favorite Pastime - Litigation. The general trend of abdicati
Re:this is idiotic (Score:5, Insightful)
It can be very hard when you are disoriented, in pain, cannot speak, cannot breathe, or when there is smoke and fire and your kids are trapped, and the simplest of tasks becomes damn near impossible.
911 works because it is simple and pervasive, a four year old can understand 911, guide dogs and other service animals have been trained to use 911 call buttons.