Software Patents Stopped in India 300
piyushranjan writes "Indian parliament deleted the section from the patents bill regrading the software patents as left parties prevailed over the Government on the issue. This may be a major victory for free software foundation(fsf) which has been lobbying hard against the bill."
Seems like a smart move. (Score:5, Insightful)
They have nothing to gain from adopting software patents.
For once they got it right (Score:4, Insightful)
As much as I hate these left parties (they're real dumbasses), for once they have done the right thing here.
Left parties doing something actually GOOD for economy. Who knew...
Uh-Oh (Score:5, Insightful)
Couple that with healty dose of the encouragement of innovation, and we just took one right on the chin.
here they come... (Score:1, Insightful)
In two minds (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Seems like a smart move. (Score:5, Insightful)
Growing yes, innovating hardly. Little innovation means you dont actually have a lot to protect making patents a moot point anyway.
Are Patent's Good? (Score:5, Insightful)
The irony is: they were designed to protect the small guy from the big guy. That's right. I shall repeat. They were designed to protect the small guy from the big guy.
They did this to encourage innovation.
You see, some guy in his garage could invent the television, a big company could come along and copy it, and make billions because he has a bigger operating budget. With patents, the guy could protect his invention, and the big guys couldn't steal his idea. All of a sudden, people want to invent because they can protect their ideas.
But now the patent system has turned on its head. It essentially protects the big guys from the small guys. Probably if we looked at patents in their stricted sense, a kid in their garage could write a text editor and infringe on hundreds of patents. I realize this doesn't usually result in a lawsuit, but the system is so convoluted that the only way to understand it is to hire expensive lawyers, which small guys tend not to be able to afford. So in many cases, the small guy gives up when faced with serious opposition (think RIAA).
Okay, I will freely admit that this post is a little inflamatory and that usually lawsuits are not launched even when a patent is owned for things like using key-combinations on a keyboard. But that's not the point.
The point is this: The patent system no longer does what it was supposed to do which is encourage the creation of new ideas. If a system no longer does what it was designed to do, THAT is the definition of broken.
Re:Seems like a smart move. (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, I don't think most current innovation is in India _yet_. However this kind of move will certainly help India since they will be free to develop software without having to have to worry about lawsuits.
The ironic thing about software patents is that while their proponents suggest they will help foster innovation, in fact they have the opposite effect and end up only helping to employ IP lawyers instead of engineers.
Re:Not Good for Indian companies (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Seems like a smart move. (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't one of the arguments against software patents that most of the software patents aren't innovations at all, but mere logical steps forward? So, whose to say they aren't 'innovating' according to the US software patent system?
Re:More jobs to go (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:There's quite a bit more to it (Score:3, Insightful)
Still - India did the right thing. It will be interesting to see how their anti-patent ethos meshes with the "patent every stray thought" mentality of the US. I wonder if the US could "help" India change its mind by threatening to withhold business if it doesn't comply.
Pffft (Score:3, Insightful)
They can still patent things in America (and other such countries) if they want and can still cross licence (or pony up licence fees just like everyone else) if they want to distribute in such countries.
All it means is that for their local market, and other similar markets, they don't have to worry about these artificially created monopolies. Their market is freer and they can spend more of their resources actually being productive and making things and less resources overcoming artificially created hurdles.
Re:Are Patent's Good? (Score:4, Insightful)
And what *could* stop the "Microsofts" from stealing Rajiv's brilliant idea would be copyright.
This is why competition is a good thing (Score:5, Insightful)
I think there are a lot of people who for one reason or another think that competition from other countries is a bad thing.
They seem to think that it is somehow 'unfair' that people in other contries can make product X cheaper. I don't know how many times I've heard the 'rush to the bottom' argument from people who obviously have no grasp of basic economics.
If you are one of those people please read this:
http://www.amosweb.com/cgi-bin/pdg.pl?fcd=dsp&ter
The reason competition is good in this particular case is because the US government is clearly not acting in its citizens best interest in regards to software patents.
The contries that have a more rational intelectual property policy will obviously benefit. This will do one of two things:
1. Businesses and citizens who create software will be forced to move to these 'enlightened' contries if they aren't there already. Basically the US will find itself locking itself out of the software market because producing software in the US will become too expensive or in some instances maybe even impossible.
2. Because of pressure from 1. the US will be forced to adopt better laws.
Basically if you can squash competition by making everyone obey your rules then you can force through productivity and creativity limiting laws such as software patents.
However in a free marketplace countries that have chosen not to incorporate such laws will naturally do better than countries that have. I'm assuming here of course that software patents stifle creativity and productivity but I think this is a pretty safe assumtption.
If you don't understand why software patents are bad please read this:
http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/en/m/intro/index
In short this is good for everyone because it will garantee that consumers of software will continue to benefit from the explosion of creativity and productivity in the software industry. Also for those of us who produce software this helps by putting real pressure on our government to change its tune in regards to software patents.
Re:Fantastic! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Fantastic! (Score:5, Insightful)
This sounds like pure bullying. Ericsson has NOTHING to gain in the area of protecting their software by moving to the US or Japan. You have to apply for patents in countries where you wish to RELEASE your product, not where you DEVELOP your products. So if Ericsson wishes to release products in both the US and Sweden, they have to apply for patents in both places, whether they have their factory located in the US or in Sweden. Actually, they run a higher risk in the US, because in the US a competitor might attempt to close them down because they are (alledgedly) infringing on one of the competitor's patents, while, without software patents in Sweden, in Sweden they wouldn't run any risk at all. That is aside the fact that rebuilding a factory and rehiring personnel in a very expensive country like the US would probably not be profitable. So, methinks this is a lot of hot air from Ericsson.
Re:Fantastic! (Score:1, Insightful)
I'd caution against being too happy about this. Remember, the issue was knocked down in Europe a number of times too... and the monied interests still managed to find a way to reinsert the relevant clauses and push the whole thing forward, no matter how blatantly anti-democratic.
Money talks and politicians listen... and voters don't give a shit about software patents.
Re:Uh-Oh (Score:5, Insightful)
So most US innovation is in the past? (Score:5, Insightful)
>> They have nothing to gain from adopting software patents.
Your "smart move" response offers the defence of smartness to both sides --- smart of India to bar software patents because they have nothing to gain, and smartness by the US to uphold software patents because they do have something to gain.
Unfortunately the last part of that is only true under the extraordinarily myopic worldview that most innnovations are in the past, and that therefore it is worth protecting the greater old at the expense of harming the lesser new.
Well that's stunningly short-sighted. The future is pretty much infinite, whereas technological progress of the patentable type has been around for a couple of centuries at most, and software patents even less, so the inventions of the past represent effectively zero percent of the body of technical development.
There could hardly be a greater condemnation of the inability of the supporters of patents to see beyond the ends of their noses.
Re:Uh-Oh (Score:1, Insightful)
A lot of slashdotters don't realize this right now, but it will take decades for our economy to recover if we don't regain the upperhand in technology exports and domestic development of technology. That was the last real segment we kicked butt and took names in.
This is not to say we should support software patents as they are now, or even worse, support how Microsoft has done business, but this bleeding off of the fruits of our labor and research to areas that are being uplifted artificially(as opposed to innvoating themselves through technological evolution) is not good for us. The case with China is much worse than with India.
And this is not meant to bash the Indian people. And I definetly find it abhorent and reprehensible some of the prejudice I've witnessed against Indian people here in the states by people unhappy about how things are going. That is not good nor acceptable, but we as a nation need to take a stand before we lose everything. It might already be too late.
But how long will it last? (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually I would say it is Education (Score:4, Insightful)
This should be even more important to the US, as with our smaller population we have a smaller total pool of potential talent, so it should be even more important that we make sure every American has a chance (and is encouraged) to maximize their talents.
We're not doing enough in this area any more, the public looks at Higher Ed. more as a way for an individual to make money than as a public good, so public funding of education has been drying up. If we want to keep our 'place' we'll need to start seeing education as a public good again, and get back to funding it that way...
Re:The situation in India is... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Seems like a smart move. (Score:5, Insightful)
So yup, the point is that most countries loosen up IPR protection in order to encourage innovation.
Re:There's quite a bit more to it (Score:1, Insightful)
Now, the population of India is significantly higher than the population of the US. Assuming a significant number of software developers were to be trained in India, they could very well reach numbers which outpace the entire population of the US. Now add China to the mix.
Let's assume this army of developers was engaged in applying for patents when they develop something which strikes them as slightly innovative. That's what happens in the US, so why not? Our patent system would be flooded with patents which US corporations would need to license from companies in India and China. Our own patent system would become the hammer with which to bludgeon our jobs.
Just something to think about.
Re:But how long will it last? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is why competition is a good thing (Score:4, Insightful)
2. Because of pressure from 1. the US will be forced to adopt better laws.
OR,
2a. Because of pressure from 1. the US will push software patents through WTO.
Now, which one looks more likely?
Re:Uh-Oh (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not the way to level the playing field.
That's the way to maintain the status quo and protect only American interests.
The fact is that in the compusing world the real competition is not in thinking up ideas. Ideas are ten a penny. The real competition is on _implementing_ them well. It's the implementers who need protecting from the patent wielding idea merchants who couldn't make great in a million years.
If India becomes better at implementing current ideas on software than America (or anywhere else for that matter) then they _should_ take away business from the other places. That's how free markets work and its all a good thing in the long term.[1]
Once the world realises that by and large, software business works better when it is about services and not products or ideas then things will all even out fairly in time. The likes of Microsoft will either reinvent themselves or die and SMEs will rule the software world. Innovation will flourish, occuring largley collaberatively much as happens now to some extent with FLOSS and other online thinking shops.
[1] factors such as foriegn working condition, minimum wages and various ethical concerns should be considered but are outside the scope of what I was saying.
Re:More jobs to go (Score:2, Insightful)
>No
Actually this is wrong. You are liable for patents separately for development and for selling. Normally licensing fees are split between the two places (since the rate may vary). By moving to a patent free country, you have a better bargaining position.
Also, more importantly, since you aren't infringing in the development country, you can either ensure that you hide the techniques you use (proprietry), or provide the patented functionality as a free additional download from a "patent haven" (open source), neither of which will directly remove liability, but which will make you a much smaller target.
So you avoid alot of risk and, even if you are a company which aims to use patents, you should still do your development in patent free countries. Remember, just because it's invented in India doesn't stop you patenting it in America, but it does stop them from suing you for the techniques you used in developing the patent.
Re:Of course they did... (Score:5, Insightful)
There isn't one, and trying to make one up won't work. The reason for outsourcing is to drive down labour costs, not to escape software patents.
When will they learn? (Score:3, Insightful)
You would think the USA itself would have learned about overly restricting software by laws from the encryption law sillyness, which was as follows:
The software developed in the USA could not be used internationally due to restrictions. Plenty of businesses wanted to do secure financial transactions securely using encryption. The solution that occured? Develop the software elsewhere and import it.
This same approach has the potential to be applied to most branches of software, since the US patent office does not appear to actually assess the merit or existance of proir art. It's very likely that the same approach taken with domain names (if it's in the dictionary it's taken) will apply to basic methods used in software.
I would be happy to see the USA patch their broken patent system until it works instead of trying to export the chaos to level the playing feild. We've already seen a bunch of companies which live only to sue based on what the former owners did when the company actually did something. Any country that is watching this process carefully is not going to implement software patents.
Re:Of course they did... (Score:1, Insightful)
outsourcing to everything under the sun ?
Let me put it this way , outsourcing is a step
towards achieving a global economy, something
good for everyone. It has been started by the
American companies. Good for them. And its good
that new jobs are getting created in developing
countries. It is very important for the world
economy that these countries prosper.
3 things (Score:2, Insightful)
1. India has a population above 1 billion.
2. 'Human resources' (i hate that word) are cheap.
3. Profit.
As someone else posted, only local markets will be affected....but a local market for 1 billion people and industry that can set up shop and USE ANY METHOD known to them for production of a product will surely have an advantage over those paying
("hey joe, did you get that new 'patented[not in india]' control system for us?")
unless im misunderstanding something
Re:Idiot (Score:5, Insightful)
You aren't arguing for making money in the free market, you're arguing for a government granting you a monopoly so there is no free market.
Re:Not only the FSF (Score:4, Insightful)
Do Indian companies really invest in patents on a scale similar to American or European companies? I doubt it. By eliminating software patents, India paves the way to preventing foreign companies from exploiting their software-related patents.
And open source software can be better rooted and supported in India. Why give the money to foreign companies for large volumes of license fees when you can be paying your own people to implement solutions that already exist. Short of an Indian company developing an operating systems, open source software is the best choice for keeping software-related expenditure within the Indian economy.
Re:More jobs to go (Score:3, Insightful)
Now is an Indian country subject to American laws if they trade with America? Well that depends on the trade treaties between the two countries - but I would bet money on the trade agreements having some verbage about respecting American law if you want to trade w/America (and vis a vis).
True, but the intent has changed (Score:3, Insightful)
But that is the new intention: It is like finding a hammer on the sidewalk - originally intended to construct shelters, we now see that it would make a perfect tool to bludgeon people over the head to take their money.
Basically, we've discovered a new, profitable use for an old tool!
Re:Attention U.S. Citizens! (Score:3, Insightful)
That's what software patents are, at the end of the day; software is just a representation of a thought process (have you ever stepped through code in your head?), and patents say, "Sorry, you're not allowed to solve problem X using mental model Y because person Z filed some paperwork on it already."
I consider the Chinese, and now Indian, approach to these matters far more realistic and I believe we'll see those two countries pull ahead of us in software for that reason among others.
A decade or two from now if you want to browse the source code for the latest nifty application, you better shuo putonghua. [amazon.com]
Re:Fantastic! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Attention U.S. Citizens! (Score:1, Insightful)
Actually, trying to force our patent laws on developing countries is exactly how we play *unfair*! Western companies already have a lead in the size of their patent portfolios, and if developing countries recognize those, they will find it nearly impossible to develop outside the shadow of these pre-existing patents.
Remember, the U.S. didn't 'play fair' for the first 100 years (they didn't recognize foreign patents) because they were in development mode.
Good for India... Bad for the imperialists... (Score:2, Insightful)