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ISPs in Argentina Must Log Everything 92

Posted by timothy from the oh-that-sounds-totally-practical dept.
hjf writes "According to a new presidential decree, and effective July 31, 2005, telecom carriers in Argentina will have to log every activity, including Internet chats, website visits, e-mails, phone calls, etc, made in Argentina. The data must be stored for 10 years, and must be available to the police and intelligence agencies within one hour, 24 hours a day. The telecom companies must pay for 'everything': software, hardware, and human resources, and will be required to use state-of-the-art technology as soon as it is available. This news was known already in specialized circles, but only yesterday it was published in major media. This is causing outrage among legislators and businessmen. Lawyers claim that it violates privacy laws and Constitutional rights (article 14), and the 'presumptive innocence principle' (innocent until proven guilty)." (The Fish comes in handy yet again.)
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ISPs in Argentina Must Log Everything More

ISPs in Argentina Must Log Everything

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  • Wow! (Score:1, Insightful)

    by turtled ( 845180 )
    That's absolutly rediculous! who funds that project of data storage? Sure, storage is cheap, but what about a whole country on an ongoing 10 year window?

  • Beat the system... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by IBeatUpNerds ( 827376 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @03:37PM (#12204994)
    tunnel everything through SSL or SSH.
    • Could you use the Google translator as described in the review of Google Hacking for Penetration Testers to get by without being logged?

      From that review By submitting a specially-crafted, English-to-English translation query, you can capitalize on Google's translation service to anonymously submit all your Web requests.

      Just thought it was interesting.
      • The insanity of the law apparently would require them to record all the data that you sent to Google and recieved back. The Google hack will only prevent the server from determining who is accessing the page; it does nothing for the transmission back to your computer.

    • Re:Beat the system... (Score:4, Informative)

      by notfancy ( 113542 ) <matias@k-bel l . com> on Monday April 11, 2005 @04:24PM (#12205534) Homepage
      You can't tunnel, 'cos the ISP can't allow you to. From Par. (e): "ISPs shall not, under any circumstances, incorporate networking architecture, technology or equipment that would limit remote interception of communications as disposed by legally established procedures. They shall not incorporate services that would hinder, limit or diminish, in any way, the retrieval of the interception, and any and all information as consigned herewith."

      It's wide and far-reaching because it's absolutely ill-conceived, with no regards to what's actually possible, and more imortant, what's already not possible at all, given the "technological means" already in widespread use.

      I'm sick, I can't read anymore.
      • If you can reach any web site, you can tunnel other protocols over port 80. So you could set up a virtual host account in another country (i.e., linux vservers), then set up a tunnel from you box to that one (run ssh over port 80), and access the rest of the internet from it.
        Or telnet to your remote box and use slirp over that connection. A number of ways of accomplishing this.
        The main concern is that if the isp's have to pay for the logging themselves, they will pass the costs on to their customers, and
      • Ooh. Argentina has also outlawed VeriSign and company. So much for e-commerce!
    • That wouldn't stop traffic analysis.
    • tunnel everything through SSL or SSH.

      I think the bigger concern here is the enormous cost that the ISPs and telcos would have to bear in order to retain all this Internet traffic. These costs would ultimately be passed along to the consumer, and could possible price high-speed Internet access out of the reach of many people.

      SSH and SSL would solve the privacy problems (but only somewhat, as people at both ends would need to be using encryption), but would do nothing to solve the logistical problems.

  • huhhuh (Score:3, Funny)

    by gl4ss ( 559668 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @03:37PM (#12205003) Homepage Journal
    in other news every argentinan isp got fucked in the a**.

    and downgraded every connection to 0.2kbyte/s in order to be able to comply.
    • and downgraded every connection to 0.2kbyte/s in order to be able to comply


      I think you got a k in there by accident. Didn't you mean "downgraded every connection to 0.2 bytes/s" ? ...its about what they'd need in order to not have a couple of dozen terabytes of data to store per month.

      --Ender

  • I guess this means... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    That the US isn't that bad after all.

    I certainly don't agree with new "security" laws like the Patriot Act, but the Patriot Act beats the hell out of this.

    • Re:I guess this means... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Everleet ( 785889 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @03:46PM (#12205121)
      I guess this means... That the US isn't that bad after all.

      No, it just means somewhere else is worse.

      • No, it just means somewhere else is bad because of stupid legislations that are here because the USA domination of south american governments is so big that the corrupt bastards in the government propose paranoid, stupid legislations to catch up to the paranoia in which the USA lives. Now bring on the "On the post 9/11 world" jokes ... in this case, they are just right.

  • Sounds like Argentina... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by HaloZero ( 610207 ) <[protodeka] [at] [gmail.com]> on Monday April 11, 2005 @03:42PM (#12205064) Homepage
    ...is suddenly in need of IT people. Too bad it will last only as long as there's capital around to support it - money out of the pockets of the customers.

    There's something to be said about the usefulness (to law enforcement) of user activities to websites and such. So you can prove... what, exactly? That a person at a location visited a particular website, at a particular time.

  • Do they say what granularity? (Score:5, Funny)

    by snorklewacker ( 836663 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @03:43PM (#12205072)
    Here's a log for ya:

    11 April 2005: (Email Traffic: Detected. Web Traffic: Detected. Chat Traffic: Detected.)
    12 April 2005: (Email Traffic: Detected. Web Traffic: Detected. Chat Traffic: Detected.)
    13 April 2005: (Email Traffic: Detected. Web Traffic: Detected. Chat Traffic: Detected.) ....

  • In other news... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Dr. Bent ( 533421 ) <ben.int@com> on Monday April 11, 2005 @03:44PM (#12205092) Homepage

    The price for a dial-up account in Argentina just jumped to $3.99 for the first minute, and $1.99 for each additional minute.

    • Re:In other news... (Score:1, Informative)

      by hjf ( 703092 )
      Local phone calls in Argentina are about USD 0,50 an hour (during the day) and USD 0,10 (night time). We have a "discount" line, the 0610 for internet calls (only HUGE ISPs can offer this service, not smaller ones, or "free ISPs"), and it supposedly cuts the phone prices for 1/2 to 1/3 of a regular call.

  • In unrelated news ... (Score:4, Funny)

    by dougmc ( 70836 ) <dougmc+slashdot@frenzied.us> on Monday April 11, 2005 @03:54PM (#12205200) Homepage
    ... stock in manufacturers of hard drives like Maxtor, Western Digital and Seagate went up 12% today.

    `We see about 20-30% of our total world-wide production of hard drives being sent to Argentina in the immediate future to fullfill the needs of this decree. After all, a slow cable modem at 1 Mbps can download 10 GB of data per day. Multiply this by ten years and by the many many people in Argentina who have broadband access, and it's a lot of disks' --Some guy at Maxtor.

    • FYI, broadband services here in Argentina range from 256Kbps to 1Mbps...

      In June there will be upgrades to 512Kbps-2Mbps (i.e, bw duplication). This favour of the Telecom monopoly comes together with severe metered access (you can download up to 4GB, after that prices go to hell... think about thousand dollars if you keep downloading continously). Until now, all broadband was unmetered.

  • Instead of e-mailing text, print to an image file in a a font OCR apps don't understand, encoded as uncompressed geo-tiff of course, and send it as an attachment.

    It is unencrypted and in the clear for all to see.

    Better yet use a M$ dialect and invest in M$.
    • Easier way to drive them nuts. Create an application that creates a file containing completely random information. (I've done this before, it's easy and doesn't compress well). Set up a program to automatically send these files to a friend who then creates a new one and sends it back. Automate and repeat 24 hours a day on a broadband connection. Should rack up the TB real quick.
      • why bankrupt the ISP? they're not the problem here, this is a law they must follow.
        although it is fun to think about...

      • That would have worked until some time ago.

        The telecom monopoly is about to setup a broadband metering scheme. Internet access will cost AR$60 for 4GB of monthly download, and 15AR$ for each exceeding GB. If AR$ means nothing to you, think about it in terms of US dollars, the relation to average earnings is almost the same.

        So racking up my 512Kb connection will cost me about 2500 AR$ (which costs me more or less the same effort as paying 2500USD costs an american)

        • What about spam?

          Does your ISP filter spam for you? If so, I presume it does not count against your download cap. I also assume that the ISP has to archive all this spam that you never wanted, or read, or even received, but which was nevertheless sent to you.

          So, every piece of spam to enter Argentina has to be archived for ten years?

          Do they also archive every port scan, every ping, every Blaster and Sasser packet? Every ARP?

  • Does the ISP drive a truckload of mag tapes around to the Ministry of Information and say "Off you go chaps, analyse this!"
  • how is this different than in north america? I thought we already logged everything and kept it for longer than ten years? except for being in the form of a "law", this is nothing new. the same stuff is being done "legally" here anyhow. big deal.
    • In Argentina, they now have to log the content of the connections, not just the information on the connections themselves. Basic difference between recording (A) visited website (B) and recording (A) visited website (B) and here is the webpages he downloaded (the pages themselves have to be saved, not just the URLs). A difference of several orders of magnitude in information.

    • Re:....different....? (Score:3, Informative)

      by dougmc ( 70836 )

      I thought we already logged everything and kept it for longer than ten years?

      I can't speak for the rest of North America, but in the US companies generally don't have to log Internet traffic. In fact, many specifically have policies to delete old logs on a set schedule specifically so that they don't have the data in case Uncle Sam asks for it. And it's legal.

      It's not just Internet related data either. Companies shred internal memos and tax records and the like after a predetermined amount of tim

    • The Cryptography Forum is new and needs help!

      you can link it here [phism.org]. it's another low-volume site, but you might get some hits.
    • you might want to look at ECHELON [wikipedia.org] if you haven't already...

  • Mr Bullet, Meet Mr Foot (Score:5, Insightful)

    by 4of12 ( 97621 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @04:05PM (#12205340) Homepage Journal

    As I recall, the British proposed some similarly silly rule requiring ISPs to "log everything" about 5 years ago.

    I haven't heard of it since, so I presume the proposal died a whimpering quiet death unclaimed by anyone.

    Free from any requirement to compromise, the Argentine president looks to one-up their old nemesis (of Falklands/Malvinas dispute) by actually trying to revive this rotting corpse of an idea.

    What's next for Argentina? A clipper chip?

    Of course, none of this compares with the tragedy of decades under juntas and the legacy of los desaparecidos [yendor.com].

    Not to mention the economic collapse [zmag.org] from naively expecting that IMF policies and democracy can co-exist.

    • As I recall, the British proposed some similarly silly rule requiring ISPs to "log everything" about 5 years ago.
      I haven't heard of it since, so I presume the proposal died a whimpering quiet death unclaimed by anyone.

      Unfortunatly The Resolution of Invesigatory Powers Act 2000 [fipr.org] was actually passed. I hate this country sometimes. As far as I know the "log everything" part has never been implemented. For "technical reasons", i.e. it's fucking ridiculous. I can't find any mention of it more recent than this [zdnet.co.uk]

      • The trouble is with the RIP Act it makes you a potential criminal for using SSH. All a law enforcement officer would have to do is demand your keys - which you don't know because SSH is automatically keyed - and you are liable for a long prison sentence merely because you don't know them.

        Fortunately, just across a few miles of the Irish Sea we don't have this madness.
  • 1. client gets list of potential nodes
    2. client connects to random node, using ssl encryption.
    3. client surfs/does whatever
    4. cops come say you were looking at blah.
    5. your lawyer shows it could have been *anyone*

  • i2p, freenet (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jago25_98 ( 566531 ) <slashdot@@@phonic...pw> on Monday April 11, 2005 @04:27PM (#12205561) Homepage Journal
    My i2p node is up and if I could so would freenet.

    Perhaps mod offtopic if you feel the plug isn't worthy.

    Not that either of these technologies can do much against 10 years though...

    • Re:i2p, freenet (Score:2, Interesting)

      by amphibian ( 691159 )
      It depends... If the crypto is cracked in 10 years, and they come back and identify all the illegal files you were sharing... :( If they make anonymous P2P illegal, they can find all freenet and i2p nodes (with the current architectures of freenet and i2p - one day this may change) very quickly. And then shut them down.
  • Say I make a post on a message board hosted by argentina with my american ISP. If the FBI wants info about me can they legally gain the information the Argentinian ISPs logged without a warrant? (with permission from argentinia of course)
  • if the Argentinian ISPs were strong enough against the law, they could cut the legislators' phone and internet services. if that doesn't work, they could just stop providing services... that might be what happens anyway, given the enormous task set before them.

  • It's happened many times before: (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Futurepower(R) ( 558542 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @04:58PM (#12205901) Homepage

    Ignorant legislators making a poor country poorer.
    • Yes. YOUR legislators and politicians making OUR country poorer.

      Our Country is NOT poor, you just happend to take the money. It's not the same, you know.

      • When you talk about the U.S. government, please don't say "your". I have no control whatsoever over the U.S. government, and neither does any other normal citizen. Most of what you don't like is decided and/or done in secret.

        Also, Argentina's government is amazingly unable to take care of itself. It is very self-defeating, in my opinion.

        Even telephone wires in the major city, Buenos Aires, are a problem. The telephone company is so disfunctional that it cannot install new phones. Citizens must do that
        • Yes, its decided in secret by the right wing shit that you vote over and over. And please don't tell me that you are a democrat, because they are the same, the fact that democrats stand on the left of republicans, doesn't put them anywhere near the center or left.

          And that shit about the phone system is only partially right. That is, the MAIN telephone company is a big piece of shit, but not to the point where it can't install phones. That happend about 20 years ago when ENTEL was in charge. Old news. And,

          • Could you explain these telephone wires [mit.edu] running from building to building in Buenos Aires?

            Also, the U.S. government is much worse than you are saying: Unprecedented Corruption: A guide to conflict of interest in the U.S. government [futurepower.org].

            How many Iraqis has the Argentine government killed? None, right? How many Vietnamese has the Argentine government killed? None, right? The U.S. government killed 2,000,000. Guess how many Vietnamese directly threatened the U.S. at the time? None.
            • Man, I LIVE IN ARGENTINA, Yes, we used to have cables running from the middle of the block, over buildings, etc, IN THE 80's.
              Electricity, Gas, Water, Phone, Fiber, EVERYTHING is underground now. In Buenos Aires all the phone lines are digital, and you can get a line installed in a matter of days.

              And about the US Government, OFF COURSE it's a big piece of corrupt shit, that has masacred millions over the years. From the Dictatorships in Latin America, to Vietnam, to Iraq.
              And yes, all of the US citizens are
              • Sorry but I live in Capital Federal and this is bullshit. Not all cables are underground. Did you know that overhead cables are forbidden by law inside of the Capital Federal? I do not believe Americans are responsible for the state of this country. **WE** are responsible for it, and denying it will only make this country poorer. Start moving your ass and start working for what you want.

  • You think politicians in the U.S. are bad? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Gherald ( 682277 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @05:13PM (#12206033) Journal
    Fifteen years ago I moved to Argentina and lived there for 10 years. The government and police are extremely corrupt, almost mafia-like.

    It's every [extended] family for themselves... they have clubs where you go barter for stuff with credit chips because the Argentine peso is worthless.

    Ironically, I moved out right as the dollar became uber strong when the peso was devalued...

    But I don't think this decree will amount to much do to the sheer impracticalities and economic costs of implementing such a massive log system. ISPs will either do their utmost to avoid following this to the letter, or go out of business.

    P.S. People in Argentina don't care much about privacy in general. For instance, they literally have no concept of personal space and will stand like 1 cm from your face while talking to you.

    • Don't make the same mistake that "porteños" do; Argentina is not the same as Buenos Aires.

      Here at Córdoba (the second biggest city), barter clubs never took off. I don't know if they still work at Bs. As., but never seen one in my short visits there.

      It's true that government and police are mafias (but specially the police of Bs. As.)

      The peso is doing reasonably fine, for being 3 times devaluated. 15 years ago we lived a 10000 times devaluation in 3 years, so this is softer :).

      And the diffe

    • People in Argentina don't care much about privacy in general. For instance, they literally have no concept of personal space and will stand like 1 cm from your face while talking to you.

      Yeah, but it also means that girls on the beach wear dental floss for bikinis.

      -

  • Silly Argentina (Score:3, Funny)

    by Kizzle ( 555439 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @07:04PM (#12206964)
    Silly Argentina. You can't just start out logging everything. Start off slow by relaxing the laws a little to combat something, lets say child porn. Wait a few years, add a couple laws for terrorism and walla, you can do whatever you want.
  • [they] will be required to use state-of-the-art technology as soon as it is available.

    In Argentina right now, that could be a while.

    State-of-the-art technology doesn't usually become available in Argentina until cousin Mariano comes back from Miami with a suitcase full of laptops and electric toothbrushes.

    Still, it sounds like there is a lot of room for abuse in this. I'd love to see an Argentine ISP send over data on a holographic cube, formatted for BeOS. Or even better, as a DRM encumbered WMV 9 fi

  • why this doesnt work (Score:2, Insightful)

    by UlfGabe ( 846629 )
    Simple Math proves how this is impossible with humans working, and nearly impossible with computers.

    Lets say 1 person uses the internet, and this person spends 2 hours a day on the internet (email, browsing, whatevering)

    It would require the police >2 manhours to understand what was going on and itemize those 2 hours of internet usage. In addition if branches were found(other suspects of interest), it would require another >2 manhours of work.

    Multiplying this by the number of days in a year, and it
  • of a Microsoft rule that was ridiculed on usenet around a decade ago. Here goes:

    So, since Microsloth employees now have to quote the entire text of the message they are replying to, does this also pertain to already quoted text? How about messages they are forwarding that contain quoted text? How about .sigs? Will Bill be seeing this in his inbox one
    day?:

    From: Joe-Bob@microsloth.com
    To: Bill-Gates@microsloth.com
    Subject: Proposal You Should Look At
    cc: Fred@microsloth.com

    Mr. Gates, I think Fred's proposal

  • Bravo, Argentina. From what I gathered without reading TFA, this is one of the most useful laws a government could come up with. Since, as everyone agrees, the task of logging every Internet transaction cannot be possibly accomplished, it will effectively make every ISP/TELCO guilty, which, in turn, will give the government a legal power to shut down any of these organization at will, or, more realistically, tell them what to do and hear a cheerful "Yes, boss" in reply. It is largely irrelevant what Joe Sch
  • The president ordered the law to be suspended, following national and international reactions to it:

    http://infobae.com/notas/nota.php?Idx=177281&Idx Se ccion=100438

    (fish obviously needed)

  • Big Brother lives in Northern Virgina.

    Verisign, better known for its domain registration business, has a dark side. Verisign operates the nation's wiretapping control center. From its offices in Northern Virginia, not far from CIA headquarters, and in Mountain View, CA, Verisign's staff has a back door into the nation's telephone system. Law enforcement and the intelligence community send their wiretapping requests to Verisign, which then remotely reroutes calls for the selected telephones to Verisign'

  • I just gave the Presidential Decree a quick read, wondering if this was much ado about nothing and it only required logging of connections, not all the data. Actually, it is even worse. Not only does it require logging all data and making it available on demand to the government, it forbids service providers to use any technology that interferes with interception and decryption and imposes on them the burden of making whatever information is demanded available in the clear. If I understand it correctly, it

  • and the project was refused for the congress.

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