NZ Business Fined For Out-of-Date Website 377
Peter writes "A story reports that a restaurant in New Zealand has been fined NZ$3000 for failing to keep its website up to date. By having out-of-date menus and prices on its website, it has breached the Fair Trading Act, according to the New Zealand Commerce Commission."
Nonsense (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)
And, once again, this has *nothing* to do with my rights online. How's that Legal section coming along, Taco?
Re:Nonsense (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Nonsense (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Nonsense (Score:2)
Re:Nonsense (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)
If you advertise rates and don't meet them, you're wrong. I can understand "forgetting" to update your site, but once someone told you about it and it still goes uncorrected? There has to be some responsibility on the part of the advertisor (regardless of the medium) to make things right. Internet ads still account for billions of dollars world wide, and this is no different than a regular print or TV ad.
There have to be warnings in place prior to sanctions - Again, there is always the possibility of an oversight, especially in the case of a company that doesn't use the web as their primary advertising method, but once notified, fix it for Gods sake!
I was ready to come down hard here, but after I RTFA, I don't have a problem with this.
Re:Nonsense (Score:2, Insightful)
Libertarian paradises, where they have existed, have tended to be almost as horrible places to live as communist paradises. People don't just vote with their wallets; they vote with their feet too.
Re:Nonsense (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)
Jedidiah.
Re:Nonsense (Score:3, Insightful)
Indeed, buyers and sellers have every motivation to lie to each other, and will do so in an unfree (e.g. Soviet) market as much as possible. But in a free market, entre
Re:Nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)
"Alternatively you can just point out that free markets tend to work best when the parties involved in a transaction have as information as possible"
Not just tend, but information is necessary for the existence of a free market. Indeed one of the most valid criticisms of free market microeconomics (well even macro actually) is the assumption about perfect information. Without it, the market cannot be free.
Re:Nonsense (Score:2)
Re:Nonsense (Score:5, Funny)
I had nearly the same thing happen to me yesterday as the customer in that story. For some reason, I woke up with a craving for a surf & turf omelette (grilled shrimp + steak strips). So I looked up the web site of this place in Tybee Island, GA where I used to have those.
The web site still lists Surf & Turf omelettes on the menu [tybeeisland.com]. So I drove all the way there (2 hour drive. Believe me, those omelettes are worth it. They also make the best damned cup of coffee in North America) just to find that shrimp are out of season and so they didn't have any to make a surf & turf.
Maybe I should email them a link to this story and a link to their own menu. That was pretty annoying.
Re:Nonsense (Score:2)
Granted I'd never drive 2 hrs for food (no matter how much ganja was in my system), but I'd be pissed too. Incidently the longest I've ever driven for food was about 40 minutes for In N' Out burgers and that only because for "some reason" I thought it was only 20 minutes away.
Mod up (Score:2)
Exactly. Let's go back on topic. Suppose someone had called, and was told the same price that is on the website. Now what? Does that move them into the wrong? At what point does it become false advertising and become punishable?
Website advertisements are just as valid as any other type, and should be held to the same standards. Period.
Re:Nonsense (Score:2)
Re:Nonsense (Score:3, Insightful)
The people who put up that website should have just put in 5 point font a "valid until YYYY" like you do with any print ad. When doing any sort of advertising people should really think of the limitations of what they offer and spell them out clearly. The problem is that many people do not think of a webpage with the same througness as they do an ad in a newspaper.
Re:Nonsense (Score:2)
Re:Nonsense (Score:2)
Re:Nonsense (Score:2)
Is that the customer's responsibility?
Why not also say if I go to a store, I shouldn't expect the prices on the shelves to be right and I should use the price scanners to check even items that are clearly marked or on a clearly marked shelf in case the info on the shelf is wrong, or else not complain if the price at the register is higher.
How anti-consumer can you be?
I don't usually like lawsuits, judgements for plaintiffs, gov't fines, e
Re:Nonsense (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't a rights or "Internet" or online case primarily, it is a case of false representations that happened to be on the Internet. Not fundamentally different than if it had been in a newspaper or radio ad, or a billboard, etc.
Re:Nonsense (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Nonsense (Score:3, Insightful)
You forgot the part where they make the punishment twice as bad in the process...
Re:Nonsense (Score:5, Funny)
you mean things like "news for nerds, stuff that matters", right?
Re:Nonsense (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Nonsense (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:So What? (Score:5, Informative)
Good thing that Slashdot... (Score:2, Funny)
this happened to my dad's engineering company (Score:4, Informative)
I think the state board of licensure fined him something around $50,000? Absolutely rediculous. Granted, the head of the board was the engineer for a competing company I believe, so there might've been other motivations... stupid small states.
Re:this happened to my dad's engineering company (Score:2)
Re:this happened to my dad's engineering company (Score:2, Interesting)
Actually, it's not that uncommon. Most states' engineering license board will go to extreme lengths to protect the "engineer" name (and collect the fines) if the individual or company is not a licensed engineer (typically, a civil engineer).
The state of Texas wanted individuals who are software engineers to be licensed professional engineers or stop using the word "engineer" entirely. A brief summary is here [aitp.org]
Re:this happened to my dad's engineering company (Score:5, Insightful)
The word Engineer means something. It denotes a level of legal and professional obligation to one's work that does not necessarily exist in other careers. When an individual software developer becomes personally legally responsible for the performance of his company's product, then he can call himself an engineer.
That kind of legal liability don't sound fun? Well then, don't be champing at the bit to get to call yourself "engineer". Its not a snobbery thing, its a safety thing: a person knows that, if they hire an engineer to do something, then they're legally required to stand behind their work. As such, certain jobs require an Engineer, not an "engineer" - this is much like how a person can have a doctorate in biology and extensive medical knowledge, but can't practice legally as a medical doctor. Its for safety reasons - he might be every bit the doctor as the real, certified person, but he has not sworn to the hippocratic oath, he does not have malpractice insurance set up, and various other considerations of accountability may not exist. Also, the state did not keep as close an eye on his medical training. Engineering programs are inspected.
The whole Engineer licensing thing didn't start because of a bunch of engineers wanting to stroke their egos. It started because of a series of catastrophes where nobody was accountable.
So, if you are not designing safety-critical systems, there's no reason to want to call yourself an engineer, unless you just like the fancy word. It is not just a fancy word - abusing it is just like people who use the word "literally" for emphasis.
Re:this happened to my dad's engineering company (Score:2)
That situation sucks. Although it doesn't demonstrate why laws that protect consumers from false advertising are bad. It demonstrates how your Dad's competitor was acting in an unethical (and most likely illegal) manner.
Re:this happened to my dad's engineering company (Score:3, Interesting)
If the company had the mistake brought to their attention and they refused to fix it, the fine would be justified. But to just whip out a massive fine for an honest mistake, that's ridiculous (in my opinion).
We aren't machines. We make mistak
There's nothing wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
It's false advertising (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's false advertising (Score:2)
I don't think it is. But consider:
I don't know how it is in New Zealand, but in general in the States businesses are not held to errors in their advertising. Someone sends off an ad and they typoed $10 to read 10--the business is not obligated to stand by the erroneous price.
Counterargument: since the restaurant was warned, it stopped being an error and became intentional.
And, is there really an obligation to "keep a website up to date?" If I publish a menu, can't I change the prices the next day? Wit
Re:It's false advertising (Score:2, Interesting)
Maybe the company was less "caring" about what it posted on the net... maybe it considered the internet to be a "lesser" form of advertising? Some bozo in a previous post ca
Re:It's false advertising (Score:5, Insightful)
Imagine if your bank advertised no charges on all bank accounts on their website, so you sign up for several accounts and all your friends an family do too. At the end of the month, you get your statements and find that you've been charged a lot in bank charges. So you notify the bank about it and also let the local banking assocation know. The banking assocation also notifies the bank about it but still the bank does nothing to correct the obvious error, such as having the page removed or shutting down the site.
Do you think it's wrong to fine the bank in that situation?
Re:It's false advertising (Score:4, Informative)
While the restaurant was clearly stupid for not doing anything even after being warned, I'm not at all convinced that commercial enterprises are (or should be) under an obligation to find and destroy all out of date promotional material. Which is essentially what this judgement amounts to.
Nice straw man. Nobody is saying the restaurant, or anybody else, should have to destroy old promo material.
Anyone who now visits the website (assuming it hasn't been updated), will see old prices, which is equivalent to new promotional material deliberately containing old prices. I say deliberate, because TFA states the restaurant was informed of its oversight. This is false advertising, and this is what they have been fined for.
What if it's a personal website that gives obsolte directions on how to get somewhere?
I'm not a New Zealander, but I doubt that their Fair Trading Act would apply to individuals who aren't running a business. It seems that all you're doing is scaremongering about what is a perfectly reasonable judicial decision.
Re:It's false advertising (Score:3, Informative)
Re:It's false advertising (Score:3, Informative)
And I'm not even sure your test (maintenance effort) is a good one. Consider this. Around the corner from where I live is a deli that's been around since the 50s. On the brick wall facing the street, there's stenciled lettering promising heros for $2. When they raise the price, why shouldn't they have to change the mural too? "Because it isn't itera
Re:It's false advertising (Score:2)
Re:It's false advertising (Score:2)
I see t
What next? (Score:3, Funny)
Turning to Europe, a German recycling firm was shuttered over the weekend when it was discovered that, in a locked, donated trunk of old books and papers, they had been in posession of WWII-era Nazi propaganda.
And PETA's founder was forced to resign today after it was learned his father once ate a steak. Rare.
Re:What next? (Score:3, Insightful)
If they were handing them out without telling anyone they were old, that would be a valid fine. The website was still up, they were warned about it, they did nothing. Can you say "bait and switch"?
Re:What next? (Score:2)
Re:What next? (Score:4, Insightful)
If you know a few business-owners (esp restaurant owners), you'll agree that some are utterly clueless on IT and economic/finance practices. What if this guy really is just clueless?
This NZ$3000 case isn't an ideal case for what I'm saying, but what about the precedent? This potentially sets a legal and public-opinion precedent that I'm not thrilled with:
Suing a company for old, orphaned, or flawed webpages creates a small barrier against entry. It gives an avenue for large firms to hammer on smaller/weaker competitors (into oblivion) for insufficient detail or inaccuracies online. If they act defensively, they publish less detail, and we lose detailed data because of the maintenance costs.
Would you rather price information for some shops be utterly unavailable online? Is that the stance of everyone disagreeing with me here? 'Cuz we risk a subtle chilling effect happening if the 'net is policed for accuracy, whether by a government commission or by competitors given more leeway to frivolously sue.
Would the restaurant's site be sufficiently fixed if a tiny bit of print said: 'last updated 21-Sept-2004'? Because I can't count the number of restaurants, bars and arts venues, online stores, peer-review sites and newspaper/magazine-based reviews that have some small bit of out-of-date info on the 'net.
Hell, even this story suffers the time-distortion effects of the web: it was old enough news that I literally found 130 copies of the story on the web. Apparently, nerds are among the last to know that this happened in February.
Would you rather only *large* companies advertise online? Because that's another risk: if you can't afford to pay for the maintenance, don't advertise online. Also, if you can't afford to have your ad vetted for legal risks, don't run it.
Would yu want your favorite hangout to take the PR hit for being 'under investigation' or for news that they're being sued by a customer?
Include fine print (Score:2, Insightful)
At that point, I would hope the company is no longer liable for a customer's stupidity.
Re:Include fine print (Score:2)
And why does it have to be in the fine print? Why not make it obvious rather than trying to hide it? Talk about trying to be deceptive.
Additionally, I don't see how a customer can be held responsible for the restaurant's failure to act. Regulations like this are in place to help boost consumer confidence in business which helps keep the whole merc
Re:Include fine print (Score:3, Interesting)
It isn't like they got a paper ad and one changed the prices, and the ad is out of date.
The website keeps serving pages that are inaccurate. That would be like one continuing to print paper ads that have old information, even after one made the change that rendered the info on the site inaccurate and in this case, where they were in
If the website was hosted outside of New Zealand. (Score:3, Interesting)
Not so (Score:2)
Re:If the website was hosted outside of New Zealan (Score:4, Informative)
We are protected here in NZ, from false advertising which may draw us into a store, restaurant etc. expecting low priced goods or special bargains.
The restaurant can host its website wherever it wants, it was still telling New Zealanders that it had specific items on its menu, which it no longer actually serves.
p.s. last time I dined there the staff were rude and incompetent, and they deserve to be straightened out in any way possible.
Re:If the website was hosted outside of New Zealan (Score:3, Informative)
Slashdot will be next (Score:5, Funny)
This sends a good message (Score:5, Insightful)
This goes back to the days of "Bait and Switch" advertising in newspapers back in the 70's. Certainly, if the restaurant posted prices, then they do have a legitimate responsibility to keep that sort of "Time Sensitive" information up to date.
"The complaining customer had notified both the restaurant and the Restaurant Association of New Zealand that the website menu was out of date and misleading, but the operator, despite knowing about the issue, had done nothing to correct the website."
This sends a good message to commercial web site operators and e-commerce sites that they have to maintain current and correct information and can't just say "We didn't have time to update things.....so not our problem"
I don't think I need to worry about my blog I set up one weekend a couple months ago and haven't touched since......do I ???Give the guy a break (Score:2)
Re:Give the guy a break (Score:3, Informative)
YAUL- Yet Another Useless Lawsuit (Score:2)
Offtopic... (Score:3, Funny)
Great Opportunity for NZ Web Developers! (Score:2, Insightful)
Makes me wish this would happen in the US.
That's the answer!! (Score:2)
One of two things will happen. Either a lot of firms in the US will be sued to oblivion, making lots of money, or HTML programmers will be in phenominal demand, resulting in more payments being made and less being taken out.
Encouraging (Score:2)
There are about a half dozen issues we all know about...P2P, DRM, public computer filtering, DMCA, a few others that are uncommon like blocking VoIP traffic. They're problems no doubt, but at least a new one doesn't crop up every day. Just variations on the old ones....so
Let's screw all the mom and pop businesses (Score:4, Insightful)
There are thousands of "mom and pop" businesses out there who paid a webmaster to make them a site as a one-off after being bombarded with the message that their business will go under if they don't join the 21st century and get an Internet presence. Once their contract with the webmaster expires, these sites often sit dormant for years. The owners of these businesses are typically working their asses off on the fundamentals to stay afloat, and it's probable that many barely recall the fact that they have a (rather pointless) Internet presence, let alone know how to update the site, or have the spare cash to hire a webmaster just to update a few details.
So here's what we do. We seek these sites out, send an e-mail to their long since unmonitered account complaining that we were misled because the site's details are not up-to-date, and sue the pants off them when there is no response. And we don't have to feel the least bit bad about our nuisance lawsuits tying up the overburdened court system, because after all, these greedy small businesses maliciously attempted to deceive people, and we're just doing our bit to eliminate this evil from the world.
Troll or Impulsive Post? You decide (Score:3, Informative)
-No one made "big bucks". The Commerce Commission fined the restauraunt $3000. The court took $260 to cover court costs.
-The restauraunt knew that their site had caused one or more customers to visit the restauraunt on false pretenses.
From the article:
"The complaining customer had notified both the restaurant and the Restaurant Association of New Zealand that the website menu was out of date and misleading, but the operator, despite knowing about t
So is computer illiteracy the new blanket excuse? (Score:3, Insightful)
Here's a novel idea: If they didn't plan to update the prices on the site, how about not writing any prices on the site to start with? Prices are _not_ static constant content by any stretch of imagination. If they run a shop, mom-and-pop or not, they already know this.
I don't think they'd print a huge batch of menus/posters/fliers/whatever and keep using them for years after the prices changed, either. So
My local computer store... (Score:2)
Bear in mind that 1 pound roughly equals 2 US dollars these days, hence that Pentium-III 500mhz comes out at around $2500. Sweet.
Also bear in mind that this store is still active and trading, just that their site is soooooooooo out of date.
Re:My local computer store... (Score:3, Insightful)
court costs (Score:2)
Ok, try this hypothetical... (Score:5, Insightful)
Later, I get notice that my web-site thing is "wrong" but I can no longer reach the guy that made it? What do I do??????
[I in fact know people who have web sites set up for their business by short-lived companies. The web sites often live on, longer than their creators. The "owners" who paid to have them created may not know HOW to change them.]
Re:Ok, try this hypothetical... (Score:3, Interesting)
Proper notification requires that the web-site thing be named, lest it be a competitor's site created to ruin your good name or other ruse.
Once you have the site's URI, you could contractually hire someone else to track down how to gain access to it and to alter/remove part of it. Or, at worst, persuade the virtual site's owner to delete it. Really, all the virtual site's owner would
Re:Ok, try this hypothetical... (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not different, just because it's online. You fail to update your website, it's your fault, now pay a fine AND fix the problem.
I got a good deal on a digital camera that way... (Score:4, Interesting)
I went down and tried to buy the camera, but was quoted a HUGELY different price for it. I asked the guy to go to their website and tell me what it says, after which the clerk said someone made a mistake on the data input... turns out the price was only for the base, not including the 2 lenses and the flash.
As a result, the clerk called the owner/boss, who asked them if the lower price was actually on the site, and had a detailed description of what was included in that price, and when it was validated, he said "well, give that stuff to him at that price... and CHANGE THE WEBSITE. " The site was changed while I was still in the store paying for my camera.
So, at the end of the day, I saved over $1,500 due to their screwup. I kind of felt bad about it, and ended up buying more stuff than I would have (huge amounts of ram, rechargeable batteries, tripod, etc), but it was nice to see the guy live up to his on-line marketing.
Hopefully WalMart is next. (Score:5, Interesting)
Example: Recently, some new DVD came out that would normally run at least $19.99. Best Buy and others were selling it at $15.99 to bring in customers. Walmart was selling it for $14.88 online and in stores near Best Buy. In Walmarts in the middle of nowhere, the price was the full $19.99. No price matching. I skipped going to Best Buy to pick it up because walmart.com said I could get it at Walmart for $14.88. By the time I was near a Best Buy again, the sale was over.
It's not even a case of old or mistyped pricing. They're actively selling at the price, just not in certain areas where they can get away with jamming up the customer. Most other places that charge less online will at least give you the lower price in the store if you ask.
Re:Hopefully WalMart is next. (Score:3, Informative)
No it didn't. It said you could order it from Walmart.com for $14.88.
False advertising? (Score:3, Insightful)
What really annoys me more though is computer retailers who advertise online prices that are discounted to compensate for postage but when you walk into their store the prices are completely different. Perhaps I ought to tell 'em next time I notice that they're probably breaking fair trading laws and follow it up with the ACCC if they don't honour their prices.
I smell astroturf (Score:4, Interesting)
Similarly, I wonder whether the distortion in this story (turning false advertising into outrageous government interference in personal web publishing) has an agenda behind it. Perhaps someone wants to weaken New Zealand's truth-in-advertising laws?
Re:I smell astroturf (Score:3, Interesting)
Luckily for you, you have a solution. Build a time machine and travel back to America in the 1800s when there were NO consumer laws. Back then you could sell gasoline as a curative and it was PERFECTLY legal.
But of course you couldn't sue the seller, because he wasn't the one who put the gas in the bottle. And of course you couldn't sue the bottler, because there was no privity of contract between you and the bottler. Basically, cons
Re:I smell astroturf (Score:3, Insightful)
Some of the stories about frivolous lawsuits that have been circulated allegedly have been planted or spun by corporate lobby groups with their own agenda (namely the rolling back of product-liability laws); hence my analogy. Both cases sound like
"Prices valid through March 31, 2005" (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:"Prices valid through March 31, 2005" (Score:3, Insightful)
Why bother having a website at all if you just build it and forget about it?
How about:
1) Keeping your website up to date. Isn't that what it's there for? To inform people about you, your buisness or your products?
2) Don't put information up that expires. If you are really lazy, just put your logo, description and address. Then there is no updating required.
Putting up "factual" information then letting it go out of date but warning people that it may be out of date at any time is just stupid.
Re:Scary (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Scary (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Scary (Score:3, Interesting)
A) Too many companies leave false, misleading information.
B) Too many companies still believe a Web site is something you can build and leave alone, or revisit only once a year.
C) It'll keep large companies from hiring part-time Webmasters, and encourage more full time hires to conduct regular Web site updates.
Hmmm... okay, 2 out of 3 wouldn't be bad...
Re:Scary (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Scary (Score:2, Insightful)
Are those personal sites? No worries. You can let them rot and maybe your friends and family will bug you. But if they are business-related sites for an active business such as the restaurant in this article, then you DO have a responsibility to either keep the site up to date, or make it obvious that the site is inaccurate and people coming to your shop should be prepared for different prices and availability. If you are
Re:Scary (Score:2)
No I don't. I expect a better level of service at Pizza Hut (well known franchise). They have a certain reputation. Oh, and by the way, pizza hut's online prices are always correct. If your country doesn't protect the consumer's, then I feel sorry for you. Me, I like to be protected from lying businesses. After all, what's to stop them fr
Re:Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
If as a business owner you don't like it, then the real solution, rather than to bitch and moan about those evil trade laws, is to advertise real information rather than false information. I mean, I can't think that any business anywhere has any excuse for knowingly advertising false information.
Not really (Score:2)
Re:Scary (Score:2)
Well I'm afraid keeping your numerous websites up to date is the cost of running a business. If you can't afford to do that in your business, perhaps you should re-think your business strategy.
Of course, all of us with 1001 personal websites don't have to keep our stuff up to date. You only have to keep stuff up to date if:
1> You are selling stuff from your website
2> Someone calls to your attention that said site
Re:Scary (Score:2)
1> You are selling stuff from your website
2> Someone calls to your attention that said site is out of date.
Even then. I think you'd only risk a fine depending on the type of business. In terms of the resturant, the commitment is pretty much made once you look at the menu on the site and decide to go there. Once you've taken the time to drive there and get seated, then
Re:To some extent they have a point. (Score:2)
Re:To some extent they have a point. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:To some extent they have a point. (Score:2)
The parent was making an amusing statement by deliberately misinterpreting a typo, do you see?
No, I don't see. Where is the typo? The words "per cent" is perfectly correct.
Re:To some extent they have a point. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Hmmmm, carry a two, that's.... (Score:3, Insightful)
(flamebait) :-)
Another Bush term ought to do it
(/flamebait)
Re:Disclaimer (Score:3, Interesting)
With print, yes, a 6 month old magazine in a doctor's office might contain outdated info. A website should not, ever, contain outdated info. Especially realted to pricing. It is inexcusable under any circumstances. People expect that a websites prices are in fact the rea