FL Court Rules Against Spouse-Installed Spyware 390
idobi writes "A Florida court ruled that it was illegal for a wife to install spyware on her husband's computer, in order to catch him in an extramarital affair. The three judge panel barred the woman from using the chat records from being introduced as evidence in the divorce proceedings. The court ruled that the software, Spector, violated Florida's wiretapping law - which states that it is criminal to 'intentionally intercept' any 'electronic communication.'"
On the Upside (Score:5, Funny)
The woman, tech-savvy enough to install spyware and obtain the results, should have no problem finding a new husband on Slashdot, where doubtlessly her activities have gained her a certain cred and mystique and a following.
in today's news Beverly Ann O'Brien sought a mass restraining order against a poster on slashdot.org who has been stalking her and sending poems, such as 'r05e r r3d, v1o13t r b1u3, a11 my ba53 r b310ng t0 y0u'
Re:On the Upside (Score:3, Funny)
r0535 R R3d
Yes... it is shamelessly stolen from a web game... *sigh*5ug4r i5 5w337
If U'd b3 m1n3
I'd f33l pr377y 1337.
Oldie but goodie (Score:5, Funny)
Violets are blue,
IN SOVIET RUSSIA
poems write YOU!
Re: Oldie but goodie (Score:5, Funny)
Re:On the Upside (Score:3, Funny)
My desktop's a sphere [hamar.sk]
If you think we're cute,
You must be new here.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:On the Upside (Score:2, Funny)
DWF seeks WM (Score:5, Funny)
should have no problem finding a new husband on Slashdot
I felt a great disturbance in the Force when I read this, as if millions of socially inept voices suddenly cried out at the opportunity to get laid.
Re:On the Upside (Score:2)
On the downside (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good! (Score:2, Interesting)
Not yet... There's still video cameras, tape recorders, GPS locaters, the Bobbit Procedure [humorcafe.com], and various in-laws with military experience in Iraq. Chat logs are nothing in comparison.
Besides, if you're going to screw around behind the wife's back, at least do it outside of the home. Just because Bill Clinton got away with it, doesn't mean everyone else can.
a little twist. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:a little twist. (Score:4, Insightful)
It shouldn't matter whose computer he was using, you aren't allowed to electronically intercept communications under Florida law. The how isn't important I don't think.
Re:a little twist. (Score:5, Insightful)
But Grincewicz concluded that "because the spyware installed by the wife intercepted the electronic communication contemporaneously with transmission, copied it and routed the copy to a file in the computer's hard drive, the electronic communications were intercepted in violation of the Florida Act."
It sounds like even if it had been a complete stranger using the woman's computer, it would have been illegal to record the conversation.
Re:"Wiretapping" (Score:3, Insightful)
I seem to recall something not too long ago that discussed the issue as it pertained to parents and their kids. I can't remember if it was a local story, or on one of the national broadcasts. In any event, they basically stated that it may be against the law in certain states to spy on your kids, by listening to phone calls, intercepting internet communications, etc. I'm sure this can be extrapolated to include other adults.
Just the same, as far is it pertains to kids, I find this quite disturbing. It's ea
Re:a little twist. (Score:5, Funny)
No no no... You've obviously never been married. What's his is her's, and what's her's is her's.
Re:a little twist. (Score:5, Interesting)
Truer words were never spoken. I actually used Spector about 5 years ago. Caught my wife in the middle of an online romance (the $600 phone bills were the real give away) and planning on cheating. Anyway, we got divorced shortly thereafter.
I don't really think Spector and similar programs are "bad" (illegal perhaps), but at the same time, I don't think they are that helpful. Think of it this way: if you use the program and find evidence, most likely the relationship is over. If you do not use the program but the trust issues are so severe you feel like you need to, the relationship is also over. Why not save the trouble and spend the $50 on a new shirt - you'll be dating again soon whether you install it or not. The only purpose Spector serves is fueling a sense of self-righteous indignation -- a new shirt looks a lot nicer on.
Re:Good! (Score:3, Informative)
1. Yes, you could run a keylogger etc.
2. No, you cannot use it as evidence.
Therefore, if you suspect your significant other doing things with other people, you could use the keylogger etc to confirm those suspicions. Then do the traditional thing - get pictures in public places. Or hire someone to "follow" the significant other.
That kind of stuff is legal, and as long as you don't rely on the keylogger for ANY evidence, I don't think you'll run into a pro
Re:Good! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:On the Upside (Score:5, Funny)
Are logs illegal? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Are logs illegal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Are logs illegal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is precisely why the ruling is good for privacy. You should not be allowed to use logs of private conversations as evidence if the logs are obtained illegally.
Re:Are logs illegal? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Are logs illegal? (Score:2)
All that the wife should have done to "be legit" is make sure she enables logging in all chat programs the husband uses, then provide the regular (possibly "undeleted") logs as evidence.
Re:Are logs illegal? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Are logs illegal? (Score:2)
Re:Are logs illegal? (Score:5, Interesting)
my divorce in 1996 I owned an ISP. my Ex was having an online affair and the court was happy to look at all her email logs, captured chat sessions and detailed logs of websites and captures of the images and the like.
her lawyer tried the same tricks, the judge threw out the request stating "privately owned computer equipment is not under the jurisdiction of the wiretapping laws."
granted I hired the best lawers in the state but it's still fishy that a judge would accept such a defense tactic.
Re:Are logs illegal? (Score:3, Informative)
her lawyer tried the same tricks, the judge threw out the request stating "privately owned computer equipment is not under the jurisdiction of the wiretapping laws."
Sorry, that's no longer true.
If you read the decision [5dca.org], you'll see that the Security of Communications Act was passed in 2003,
Interesting (Score:5, Funny)
Community Property State? (Score:5, Informative)
Unless the PC was his before the marraige, the whole PC is 'theirs' and she can install whatever she wants on it.
Re:Community Property State? (Score:2)
This is clearly not true, even if the computer was all hers. Their is clearly some software which it is illegal to install or use (e.g., commercial somftware that you don't have a license for, or software whose only purpose is illegal (not sure what would fall into that category). And even if it was legal for her to install the software, it would still be illegal to use it to break the l
Re:Community Property State? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Community Property State? (Score:4, Informative)
From the article:
"It is illegal and punishable as a crime under (state law) to intercept electronic communications," wrote Judge Donald Grincewicz on behalf of a three-judge panel.
...and...
But Grincewicz concluded that "because the spyware installed by the wife intercepted the electronic communication contemporaneously with transmission, copied it and routed the copy to a file in the computer's hard drive, the electronic communications were intercepted in violation of the Florida Act."
The act of the wife installing the software was not ruled on and thus the question of what she can and cant do with marital property is not at issue, but the actual interception of the husbands communcations is what the court ruled on, and found to be unlawful. You dont have carte blanche over your partner.
Re:Community Property State? Deleted data? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Community Property State? (Score:2)
Re:Interesting (Score:2)
But if, for instance, she used my work laptop with the keylogger and I had evidence of an affair, would that be acceptable in court? After all I didn't install it to spy on her and it's not HER computer.
On one hand, that's cool (Score:4, Insightful)
I have a serious problem being told what I can do with my computer when others do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy. If I'm giving people shell accounts, I'm not going to sniff their traffic. On the other hand, I am very likely to install a keylogger on my console.
Re:On one hand, that's cool (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:On one hand, that's cool (Score:2)
Re:On one hand, that's cool (Score:2, Informative)
Now what about... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Now what about... (Score:2)
Ha (Score:5, Funny)
This sounds the same as a spousal wiretap to me (Score:5, Interesting)
If this judge's ruling is in line with prior court ruling since the most recent changes in the law, then I don't see the problem.
On the other hand, if he broke with precedent, he could be overturned.
Re:This sounds the same as a spousal wiretap to me (Score:2)
Don't be so sure. Audio recording of telephone conversations without consent is a felony. In Florida, ALL PARTIES must give consent. Federal law states (last I checked) that only ONE party needs give consent. Other States vary. Also, the law (Federal) requires a notification tone (that beeping you hear) unless you have a court ordered wiretap.
This is why
Wow! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Wow! (Score:2)
Actually....it HAS happened. I don't remember the details, but, was watching the news the other night, and recently, a judgement AGAINST a parent was declared in conjunction with the mother listening in on her daughter's phone calls. The mother was worried about drug use or something with the boy the girl was talking to.
I was shocked...I didn't think a kid had any expectation to privacy. Do
Re:Wow! (Score:3, Informative)
At least that's my recollection.
Re:Wow! (Score:2)
Re:Wow! (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd like everyone to think long and hard about this one, please. Privacy laws are based on a *reasonable expectation* of privacy. So if OTHER people stop expecting a certain level of privacy, that level of privacy ceases to be 'reasonable', and YOU can no longer expect it. Your level of allowed privacy is dependent on how much your fellow Americans care
Spouse vs. Work (Score:5, Insightful)
Most all of them recognize that, outside of law enforcement activity a 3rd party isn't permitted to eavesdrop.
One thing that occurs to me is that there have been a spate of decisions in a law enforcement context to the effect that electronic communications like email lack the same "expectation of privacy" that phone calls and postal mail do. Whereas this seems to acknowledge that chat serves a similar function to the phone, just with distinct technology, and thus extends the same protection.
The article briefly mentioned that while this wife wasn't allowed to wiretap her husband, her husband's employer is (while he's at work, anyway). I thought this was funny, the different standards between the workplace and the home. There are a variety of justifications for wiretapping your employees - something that, as far as I know in most states, employers have carte blanche to do - but the interesting thing is that when you start thinking about them, most of them apply to the spouse as well.
At work, you use your employer's computer, in your employer's building (their machine, their house), but the wife jointly owns both. At work, you may make the argument that wiretapping is necessary to insure reliability and integrity of your business, but the spouse can argue the same is necessary to insure the integrity of the marriage. Both will claim: "What's their privacy for anyway? Do they have something to hide?"
The only strong argument I can think of for surveillance by employers is that the employee "consents." I suppose spouses don't have the same leverage to compel "consent" to eavesdropping as employers do.
Ugly business, trying to get a job that will promise to respect your privacy. You can always "just work somewhere else," but there are quite a few things we already prevent employers from doing because "somewhere else" is nowhere if we don't.
Re:Spouse vs. Work (Score:2)
Re:Spouse vs. Work (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Spouse vs. Work (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes it is an interesting discussion, why spouses don't have the same rights as employers lol. One of the reasons that employers are allowed to eavesdrop, is because while you work for them, everything you do is considered something done by the company, so they need the ability (at least they claim) to monitor you in order to 1) ensure you are doing your job, in a manner consistent with company standards, and 2) to have control over what employees are saying on behalf of the company, because the com
Re:Spouse vs. Work (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh yeah. That's a really good point. Didn't even think of that.
Re:It's got one more twist left, too (Score:3, Insightful)
"A ha!", he thought, "i've got her". So he provided tapes of those exact 6 occassions showing no harrassement took place.
HE was tried and convicted on 6 counts of missdemenour Invasion of Privacy.
I read this awhile ago so I don't
So..... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:So..... (Score:2)
smooching pictures are generally in public... if she had bugged the motel room where he was banging her that would probably be inadmissible as well.
In Washington, I wonder if this would be the case. (Score:2, Interesting)
Doesn't this mean... (Score:3, Insightful)
Didn't FL courts also rule... (Score:2, Funny)
What about hardware? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:What about hardware? (Score:5, Funny)
Legal or not, if he's plugging into a box that's running in promiscuous mode, he deserves what he gets.
Re: (Score:2)
What if they have satellite internet!? (Score:2, Funny)
On her next pre-nup, it is obviously essential that it include a clause that allows either of them to install spyware and security cameras clandestinely!
And what if he has his internet connection through a infrared connection to another computer? Or a WiFi network? So many non-electrical means of connecting to the internet!
What about an email filter? (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder if that would mean we are violating that law, since we are clearly intercepting electronic communications?
Re:What about an email filter? (Score:2)
Coming Soon: No actual evidence permitted, (Score:5, Insightful)
This case is the equivalent of a woman hiding a camera in her own bedroom to catch her husband in the act, only to be told it's inadmissable because they didn't know they were being taped.
There need to be reasonable limits to this sort of stuff. Soon we won't be able to submit any evidence at all that was gathered without the permission of the accused...
"I'm sorry sir, I did not allow you to take that bloody knife covered in my finger prints"
Re:Coming Soon: No actual evidence permitted, (Score:3, Insightful)
This case is the equivalent of a woman hiding a camera in her own bedroom to catch her husband in the act, only to be told it's inadmissable because they didn't know they were being taped.
Except for the fact that the husband doesn't have a reasonable expectation of privacy from his wife in their bedroom. A phone conversation, or an email chat is obviously different.
Re:Coming Soon: No actual evidence permitted, (Score:3, Insightful)
Part of the problem is that it's his bedroom as well. In his own bedroom he has a reasonable expectation of privacy. And that privacy shouldn't be violated without due process of law.
How about if she taped her husband masturbating without his knowledge, and then distributed the tapes after their divorce to embarass him. Is that OK? At the time it was her house after all.
Makes some sense (Score:3, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
What age does this become illegal? (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, "not admissible as evidence" doesn't necessarily imply illegal, so it may be legal to monitor, but not to use against someone.
Re:What age does this become illegal? (Score:4, Insightful)
Proving that my [hypthetical] son has been surfing porn sites would bring me no satisfaction. I'd rather have him not looking at porn in the first place because he knew I would probably catch him.
IM Program Chat Logs (Score:2, Interesting)
Does anyone know if these laws apply in any other states?
FBI keylogging factoid (Score:5, Interesting)
Apparently the FBI can't keylog you while a modem is in operation because of some bizarre issue with phone tapping (something like you can't tap modem communication without a separate warrant). The FBI keylogger actually turns off when a modem is active. How about that?
I guess this sort of the same, but on a local level (and with a broader reach).
Sign of the times... (Score:5, Insightful)
I spoke to a lawyer and in courts.. it ends up being next to useless. You may as well just leave the relationship... that being said.. it's not easy.
Cell Phone Instant Messaging Logs (Score:2, Interesting)
spousal spyware (Score:2, Funny)
what does the spyware do in Soviet Russia? does it still spy on YOU?
Florida cheaters (Score:2, Interesting)
It took me a few hours, but I located copies of all of the email sent between them that wasn't properly deleted.
It's been like 8 years since then, so I don't remember exactly how many there were, but I think it was something like 80 in a week.
They happily paid about $500 for the pr
how far (Score:5, Insightful)
In a phone analogy, it's more like listening in on which phone number is being dialed, not the conversation. But in a lot of instances there is more information, thanks to the query string. A URL can tell an adware program what books someone is looking at on Amazon, or what they are searching for at Google.
Just thinking out loud....
Homeland Insecurity (Score:5, Interesting)
So we can conclude that so-called "Homeland Security" -- which routinely intercepts electronic communication without a warrant -- is a criminal organization.
It's all the same. (Score:2)
What bothers me the most is that the judge claims it's wiretapping because it logged data contemporaneously. Since you have to log something contemporaneously by definition, doesn't this render logs illegal, or better yet, inadmissabile?
Re:It's all the same. (Score:2)
This will likely be overturned (Score:2)
In that case the PC is owned by both individuals; therefore, she did not install software o
But in LA its ok? (Score:3, Informative)
Similar Parental Rights Case (Score:5, Informative)
consider everything logged (Score:3, Insightful)
My job allows a certain amount of free time at a PC with high-speed internet access and I make use of it. My employer certainly has the legal right and means to log every key I strike. Have I ever accessed my paypal account from work? Probably...so my employer (or my employer's IT guy) can probably purchase things on my credit card. How about my ebay account? Again, yes. Yahoo? Yes. Other accounts (like slashdot) and forums and blogs? These may all be open books to him/her/them/Big Brother. Fortunately I'm not a spy and not even particularly daring in my Googling ("office-appropriate websites" is my motto) so I expect I'm flying below the radar. But suppose someone really was interested? They could literally read my mail, and some of my personal email is...well...personal. Scarier still is the fact that I've used (I know, I oughtn't, but I'm human and it's embarassing to always be forgetting) certain short-cuts to help me remember which password belongs to which accounts and sometimes my screen name is the same from site to site. So someone could conceivably hack my yahoo account and use data learned there to access other accounts and basically domino-effect their way through my whole schizophrenic tree of online personas. Okay, I've mixed paranoia in there, but I really want to examine the worst-case scenario.
Proposed new worldview: every computer I use logs everything. Can I retain my privacy nevertheless?
For now, if I'm careful, yes. One key is staying below the radar, as it were. If I attract a lot of attention, I may become a target, but if I mind my own business, I'm not likely to be bothered. We're not yet at the point where everyone is considered a criminal. The man whose wife was suspicious wouldn't have gotten caught if he had not aroused her suspicions in the first place. (The method I recommend for avoiding arousing suspicions is to be scrupulously innocent; not a fail-safe, but a big help.)
If I pretend my employer is reading over my shoulder 100% of the time at work, I'm unlikely to type anything compromising.
If I pretend the other people in my household are reading over my shoulder at home, I'm likely to stay out of trouble too.
But where do I go if I want to be particularly clandestine, for example buy my wife a present without her knowing about it? Someplace anonymous. Anonymity is the great bastion of protection in the digital age. There are some freely available web-based email systems that do not even require a real name to register; with a working email address, one can open all sorts of online accounts. If I'm paranoid, I may open a unique account for the sole purpose of registering for a specific online activity, and never let the account mix with any other activity of mine.
In other words, if I'm careful, I can avoid linking myself to anything I do online. Say I use a public computer, perhaps at a library or an internet cafe, to open an anonymous free email account, and I use that email address to open a slashdot account. As long as I never access that email address again and never access the slashdot account at home or at work, I can avoid leaving a thread from it to me--even assuming every keystroke was logged on every computer I used.
That kind of covering my tracks is a pain, and not really necessary because I'm not up to villainy, but if I were paranoid, and I'm beginning to think I should be, it would offer protection.
But wait...anonymous public internet access is rapidly disappearing, even from libraries. One frequently must have a library account to use the library computer, and many libraries now use software that logs on a specific user f
Another plus(?) for the Linux column (Score:3, Funny)
Let's drop the tired TCO argument and put that on the brochure.
Re:Another plus(?) for the Linux column (Score:3, Funny)
The all new Knaughtix distro! Doing something naughty, like surfing porn or cheating on your spouse? With the Knaughtix CD, and an optional floppy disk or USB key with your network settings, you can surf or cheat in safety! Just reboot the machine, and all evidence is gone gone gone!
I'm confused... (Score:4, Informative)
Over here, I think it goes something like 'you keep any property you can conclusivly prove you took into the marriage, everything else is split 50/50'. No judge would give a rats ass for the reasons you want a divorce.. you agreed the share everything, and if you now want to stop sharing everything that's your deal.
Re:the USA PATRIOT act (Score:2, Redundant)
>
>hang on, doesnt the USA PATRIOT act allow the government to do exactly this? inspect your electronic communications? i'm no expert on US law, so somebody correct me if I'm wrong...
Well, yes. But the Patriot Act governs the relationship between government and taxpayer, not husband and wife. You're making a circular argument -- it's criminal to do things that
Re:Built in logging? (Score:2)
Re:way to go! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:way to go! (Score:2)
I'm not familiar with florida divorce law... but if he is contesting the divorce then she has to prove that he wronged her in some way in order to get a divorce.
at least that is how I understand things to work in most states. you cant just get a divorce without reason unless it is consensual.
Re:way to go! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:way to go! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Can't wiretap yourself? (Score:3, Insightful)
It typically applies to monetary arrangements (ie taxes, house, debt, etc). Each person in a marriage still retains their personal legal rights. For example you can punch yourself, but not your spouse.