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Senate Wants Database Dragnet 249

Posted by samzenpus from the big-brother dept.
Doc Ruby writes "Wired reports that the "Senate could pass a bill as early as Wednesday evening that would let government counter-terrorist investigators instantly query a massive system of interconnected commercial and government databases that hold billions of records on Americans".
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Senate Wants Database Dragnet More

Senate Wants Database Dragnet

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  • How is this any different from any of the other huge connected databases and total knowledge projects?
    • > How is this any different from any of the other huge connected databases and total knowledge projects?

      It has a different name. That means it's for freedom! Won't somebody think of reducing the burden on middle-class children?

    • Easy. (Score:2, Insightful)

      by DAldredge ( 2353 )
      The people running this one can arrest you, take all your stuff and deport you to a country where you can be tortured.

      Other than that nothing much else is different.
    • You have to write a wicked long join.

  • Total information awareness? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by lothar97 ( 768215 ) * <owen&smigelski,org> on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:04PM (#10518667) Homepage Journal
    So, I guess Poindexter's Total, excuse me, Terrorism Information Awareness [epic.org] is now a reality. I thought, and the page I cited agrees with me, that this project was stopped by Congress. I guess another name, and another "overview and rationale" makes it more palatable. Nothing like keeping the people in fear all the time.

    I've resisted wearing my tinfoil hat, now I'm wearing one, and putting one around all my personal information as well.

  • billions of records? (Score:5, Funny)

    by anthony_dipierro ( 543308 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:05PM (#10518669) Journal

    would let government counter-terrorist investigators instantly query a massive system of interconnected commercial and government databases that hold billions of records on Americans

    OMG! They gave the government access to google!

  • As I said before... (Score:4, Informative)

    by Bull999999 ( 652264 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:06PM (#10518677) Journal
    The Senate will likely have its final vote on the bill, sponsored by Joseph Lieberman (D-Connecticut) and Susan Collins (R-Maine), Wednesday night.

    As I said before, don't trust any of the major parties to safeguard your privacy. This may, however, close the lack of information sharing between the agencies leading up to 9/11 that people bitched about.

  • Wednesday evening? (Score:5, Funny)

    by ChipMonk ( 711367 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:07PM (#10518688) Journal
    Isn't it a little late to be reporting this? How are we supposed to Slashdot Congress at this late hour?

  • Riiight (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Donoho ( 788900 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:07PM (#10518693) Homepage
    Many have trouble accurately querying databases within the same company. If these government agencies have the brain power (internal or contracted) to pull this off then they can have my information.

    • Re:Riiight (Score:5, Insightful)

      by MonkeyGone2Heaven ( 720397 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:54PM (#10519023)

      Actually, having the government inacurately querying these databases is what scares me. The last thing I want is to be scooped up in some anti-terrorist sweep because some doufus doesn't know his joins.

      Of course, they'll be just as certain I'm a terrorist as they were that Saddam Hussien had vast stocks of WMD when we invaded Iraq.

      • Re:Riiight (Score:3, Interesting)

        by TykeClone ( 668449 )
        I've seen someone hassled by the IRS because someone keying in 1099 information mistyped a social security number and tied that income where it didn't belong. And it was up to that person to prove that it didn't belong to them.
      • A search warrant should be required to perform any such search. At least give judicial oversight to the use of this information.
  • "I'm Joe Thursday, this is my partner, Ed Tuesday, It's Wednesday afternoon and we need to see your files, ma'am."

    "Cor! What about a citizen's right to privacy, flatfoot!"

    "Congress and the Justice Department have given us our mandate. Your with us or your against us, ma'am."

  • Sounds Complicated (Score:5, Funny)

    by Lev13than ( 581686 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:08PM (#10518698) Homepage
    I hear that they are going to save money by hosting the entire database in a couple of GMail [gmail.com] accounts.

  • Why the urgency?! (Score:4, Funny)

    by bergeron76 ( 176351 ) * on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:09PM (#10518713) Homepage
    Oh wait, they have to find some "October surprise" dirt on the challenger before the November election!

    Now it makes sense.

  • Good enough? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by slashrogue ( 775436 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:09PM (#10518716)
    "A lot of (task force members) were very uncomfortable about data sharing," Farber said. "But all of us at the end felt confident that if the recommendations were followed, it was as good as it was going to get relative to privacy protections."

    As good as it's going to get is exactly how good again?

  • What about foreigners ? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Jesrad ( 716567 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:12PM (#10518736) Journal
    I'm pretty certain there are millions of records of personnal information on us foreigners in those many many databases, too. Nice to see how highly we're regarded by the current US Administration :( Especially when we have no say in how these informations can be (mis)handled.

    • Re:What about foreigners ? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @08:17PM (#10519210)
      As it is, it's quite hard being a foreign national in the US presently, even if you are just a student.

      With the new SEVIS [uscis.gov] system in place, whatever little privacy you had is gone. It's mandatory for you to provide information on your current whereabouts to the authorities.

      I interned at a national lab this summer, and it was mandatory for me to notify my mentor of my whereabouts - if I was leaving town, even on weekends, I had to inform him. He would call me up every three hours to find out where I was. During weekdays, I had to call him up and get his permission before leaving for lunch.

      Rights? You do not have those.

      United States of America ceased to be the land of the free a long long time ago.

      You do not have any liberty here. Get over it. You're not wanted if you are foreign national. Your color and your race will be used against you, no matter what. I get pulled over at airports all time time because of that.

      I do not blame the people, because the people are nice. But the administration and the people running the country are not.

      They do not care about the principles that this country was built on. Sad.
    • No offense, but the US Government doesn't give a damn about you. Hell, they don't really give a damn about me, a US citizen!
    • Yes, there is foreign information in those databases. The solution? Boycott American companies. You don't need to worry about ALL american companies of course, only ones that might store sensitive information such as financial institutions, airlines, and buses.

      In addition to being beyond their reach, this hurts their economy which MIGHT make some people in their government think twice about these types of initiatives.

  • the article mentions "protections" and other crap (Score:4, Insightful)

    by macshune ( 628296 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:13PM (#10518740) Journal
    "To prevent abuses of the system, the Markle task force recommended anonymized technology, graduated levels of permission-based access and automated auditing software constantly hunting for abuses."

    Who is going to audit the auditing software? Who gets to assign permissions? How can this be anonymized? Why are these just recommendations?

    "The proposed network would not look for patterns in data warehouses to attempt to detect terrorist activities, Dempsey said. Instead, an investigator would start with a name and the system would try to see what information is known about that person."

    Ok, so it's not a "dragnet," but a "dossier net" that just keeps a file on everybody synthesized from government and commercial data. I fail to see how this could possibly detect someone using a false name, who does not want to be found and probably doesn't use credit cards.

    "The next Mohammed Atta is not going to be found in commercial databases," Griffin said, referring to the tactical leader of the 9/11 attacks. "We are going to stop him running a red light somewhere, and we are going to run relationships associations with this guy and we are going to say, gee, you have things in common with guys on watch lists. That's how you are going to find the guy -- not because he has bad credit.""

    Riiiight. How many people would match up to these arbitrary watch lists? How many more middle eastern folks are gonna be pulled over again and again and questioned again and again just because their activities look something similar to someone's idea of a potential terrorist?

    Is it worth it?
    • Who is going to audit the auditing software? Who gets to assign permissions? How can this be anonymized? Why are these just recommendations?

      I hope they do a better job than IRS did with their database. I heard that when the IRS database was initally deployed, it did not have permissions set and the IRS employees where able to take a look at their neighbors' tax returns.
    • "The next Mohammed Atta is not going to be found in commercial databases," Griffin said, referring to the tactical leader of the 9/11 attacks. "We are going to stop him running a red light somewhere, and we are going to run relationships associations with this guy and we are going to say, gee, you have things in common with guys on watch lists. That's how you are going to find the guy -- not because he has bad credit.""

      Anyone else reminded of the overreaction to the Columbine High School shootings, where
    • > Ok, so it's not a "dragnet," but a "dossier net" that just keeps a file on everybody synthesized from government and commercial data. I fail to see how this could possibly detect someone using a false name, who does not want to be found and probably doesn't use credit cards.

      Because it only takes one mistake. And everybody makes mistakes.

      Suppose the guy you're looking for has a bank account under a fake name - all you know is the bank account number, and nothing at all about the holder. Suppose

  • Riiiiiight... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Kozar_The_Malignant ( 738483 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:18PM (#10518791)
    The IRS lacks staff and adequate software and hardware. The BIA has totally hosed the accounting of the trust fund money. The Justice Department says that complying with a large FOIA data request would crash their servers. The current, tiny No Fly list contained the name of a prominent Senator. I should worry about this, why?
    • Because when they screw up, there will be consequences. Frankly, I'm not so much concerned about my privacy as I am with what will happen when they mmix up my records with a terrorists, or a drug dealer's.

      I have a friend in my local Linux user's group who told me this story about a database screwup. Apparently, there's a dude with the same name as him in town who's a major drug dealer, and at one point the FBI had kept him under surveilance because of a mix-up. A friend of his who was in the marines was ne
    • It's a ploy. Distract em with the failures while the working quantum machine is decrypting 409828287382 mbit PGP keys.

  • That must be one big database (Score:3, Funny)

    by dfn5 ( 524972 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:19PM (#10518794) Journal
    Where do I send my resume for that DBA job?

  • domestic terrorists? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dresseduptoday ( 621090 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:19PM (#10518796)
    Ah, so it has struck US politicians that threats to the nation may (at least in theory) come from people who are not forreign nationals. Not that I envy those of you who live there, regardless of nationality. Freedom used to be cherished, and covernment control and distrust of own citisens in the former eastern block used to be scorned. Bring that point of view back! Your fears are scores for your enemies. _ /Bjorn.

  • I always said that... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by marktaw.com ( 816752 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:19PM (#10518798) Homepage
    I always said that Carnivore / Echelon / TIA probably resembles Google. That's what I would do if I were the government. Then it doesn't matter what format the information is in, web enable it, publish it and spider it. *poof* your database on everything law enforcement knows about everyone, without having to worry about integrating disparate systems across government (local and federal) agencies.

    Didn't http://www.google-watch.org/ say that one of Google's top people came from the Department of Defense?
    • Yeah, but Google was made by a small group of really smart, motivated people who wanted to create something innovative. I don't think the government is capable of doing something like that, outside of military special forces - they're too big, too beraucratic, and stifling.
  • I would imagine this scenario would be analgous to the large bridges of the world that are endlessly painted - get to the other end, start again.

    Thus there is no end condition. A simple model whould be:

    while(1){
    // todo: code to search databases
    }

    Imagine, though if they implemented recursive routines, with a buggy stop condition. It's be years till the mistake reared itself.

  • Tips and Tricks? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by vettemph ( 540399 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:24PM (#10518826)
    We need to come up with a "How To Blend In" document that teaches folks how to limit trackable transactions, make all your travel look like company business and vacations, where to find the books you want without anyone knowing your reading them and so forth. ie.:Imagine how hard it would be for the cops to give speeding tickets if every one of us drove a "black sedan". BLEND IN!

    Of course we also need to figure out how to fill the database with so many fake "flags" that it becomes useless.

    now where is that silver hat i usually wear?

    • Why? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Planesdragon ( 210349 )
      Please explain why the effort to blend in--which would include convincing thousands if not millions of people to conform--is not better spent just making the government honest.
      • "Please explain why the effort to blend in [...] is not better spent just making the government honest."

        The former is something that's within your actual power?

        • Yes. As much as it is to change the minds of the thousand people I pass every day.

          A small person with sufficient budget can keep the governmet honest--see Ralph Nader for a great example. That same small person with the same small budget can not change everyone's mind--see Ralph Nader for a great example.
    • This sounds like a great idea at first till you realise the first step is for everyone to post AC on Slashdot.

      Will someone please think of the karma!!!
    • 1) Drive or take the bus, don't fly.

      2) Pay cash for as much as possible, and don't use any "loyalty card"

      3) Don't speed.

      Le voila, The only info on you is your tax return, voter registration, mortgage, and utility bills, which look just like everyone else's.
      • Actually, everyone else flies.

        And, they use loyalty cards... and credit cards.

        You stand out like a sore thumb, because you *don't* do these things... almost like you don't want to be noticed.

        So, what are you trying to hide?

        Comrade.
      • If you're going to speed, don't stand out and always look for a "blocker" - someone in a flashy vehicle going a bit faster than you.
    • make all your travel look like company business and vacations

      If you're not travelling on either business or a vacation then are you doing?? Practically everything except going to a funeral fits into one or the other!
    • It has been done [ampcast.com].

      Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie - The Privacy Song

  • Just who is the enemy? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Whammy666 ( 589169 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:25PM (#10518830) Homepage
    Why are the majority of these new anti-terrorism laws targeting American citizens? Al-Qaeda is largely based in foreign countries and consists of foreign nationals. Yet the focus of Asscrofts et. al. anti-terror efforts has been to find new and creative ways to spy on US citizens.

    What's wrong with this picture?


    • Sshh! Who would keep the duct tape industry thriving if US citizens weren't beside themselves with the ol' "reds under the beds" paranoia.

    • Re:Just who is the enemy? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by RealAlaskan ( 576404 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @08:16PM (#10519205) Homepage Journal
      Why are the majority of these new anti-terrorism laws targeting American citizens?

      It's all about control, in two senses: they're desparate to control everyone, and they can only tighten the screws on those of us they already have some control over. So, today they turn the U.S. into a police state, tomorrow the world.

    • Here's the catch. Many of your companies do business in foriegn countries. In Canada we have a big problem with this. There are many Canadian financial subsideries such as MBNA Canada. These subsideries are subject to Patriot and this TIS discussed here. Hence, as a Canadain, it may be the case that the US government has access to MY financial records, without telling me.

      I am in fact in the process of cancelling both my credit cards, because they are either paritally run by american companies, or from sub
    • Funnily enough, as a non-US citizen this bothers me too. Government and especially commercial databases will have *lots* of information about non-US citizens, and we don't have the protection from your government that you folks do.
  • What we need is very strict laws controlling our governmental leaders and very harsh penalties for government managers who break these laws.

    Again, our legal system is set up to control us proles, but we need an legal system to control the governmental leaders, managers, etc.

    After we set up controls for them, then we can let them have access to this information. And they will act ethically if they know they could face life in prison or even the death penalty if they do things wrong.

  • last thing i heard.... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by drfrog ( 145882 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:42PM (#10518932) Homepage
    americans werent the problem

    are they actually admitting that america too has carried out acts of terrorism?

  • Try the Fletch approach... (Score:3, Informative)

    by i_want_you_to_throw_ ( 559379 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:42PM (#10518936) Journal
    When signing up for loyalty card with grocers and drugstores use fake names...
    Ted Nugent
    Harry S Truman
    John Cocktosen
    If a company isinists on an SSN give them this... #078-05-1120
    It's a specimen number from the Eisenhower era. Works most of the time. Happy evasions!
    • They are already onto that trick.

      The first time you use your credit/debit card with your real name on it, they will modify the database to reflect your real information.

      The only way to be safe is to use cash-only 100% of the time (which is a good principle to live by anyway).
    • If a company isinists on an SSN give them this...

      Give them the finger! Unless they're going to be filing tax documents about you, they don't need it.

      Just don't use "loyalty cards".

    • I don't know about other cards, but what I do at Kroger is just say "I lost my plus card, can I have another one?" Then they give me the card and tell me to fill out the form. "I'm in a hurry, I'll just take this and give it back to you later."

      I've got about 10 of them now (I don't shop at Kroger that often).

  • Great! (Score:3, Funny)

    by jdunlevy ( 187745 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:45PM (#10518950) Homepage
    Now the dangerous likes of Ted Kennedy and Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens won't be able to do anything!
    • I wish I could remember which (conservative) radio host went off about Cat Stevens getting flagged. He kept playing the "la la la la la la la la la la la" phrase from Wild World and screaming, "This is the voice of Islamofascism! This is the voice of terrorism! This is the voice of hatred!" (Sarcastically of course.)

      I almost wrecked my car, I was laughing so hard.

  • Wow. (Score:4, Informative)

    by c0dedude ( 587568 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @07:50PM (#10518990)
    What part of
    "Article [IV.]

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "

    don't they understand? You already can, with a warrant. The only reason a government would want these powers with this little cause is to spy on its citizens. They've already got sneak-and-peek warrants!
  • I believe the Canadian (or at least local BC provincial) government has already ratified acts to keep our personal information out of US databases...

    I'd expect that if such a database were made, it would include who you make contact with, financial records etc etc.

    How are they going to keep the information on just US citizens, no doubt they'll be interacting with Canadian persons/companies at various times.
  • Mother, should I trust the government?
  • The primary requirement to have a police state is to have too many Police. What scares me are the politicians who say that we are 'losing our civil liberties' in Washington and then say that we need more 'boots on the street' in their home districts. The current administration has not been asking for any large increase in law enforcement personnel.

    The government must establish justice and provide for the common defense. It can do this by having more people in law enforcement and/or by having better infor
  • Why not just use the Do-Not-Call registry? Sure...sign up for something with the government that is too good to be true.
  • instantly query a massive system of interconnected commercial and government databases that hold billions of records on Americans.

    What Db software are they using on what hardware platform to get instant results on billions of records?

    I can't imagine even BEGINNING to normalize "a massive system of interconnected ... databases". This'll take years just to chart out and decades to implement.
    • This is the Federal government we're talking about here. They've got a virtually bottomless pocketbook and access to the finest minds in the world.

      The database will be housed in the warehouse from the end of the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" next to the ark of the covenent.

  • In other news.... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Dachannien ( 617929 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @08:24PM (#10519272)
    In other news, Experian, TransUnion, and Equifax can do this already.

  • This project is a reality people! I saw some sorce code the other day from it...

    --TIA script v0.9 by john f.
    --Notes: Runs a little slow, maybe some additional indexes on DBs?
    SELECT ss.lastname,ss.firstname,*
    FROM SocialSecurity SS
    INNER JOIN FBIFiles FF ON SS.CurrentSSN = FF.SSN and SS.DateOfBirth = FF.DOB
    INNER JOIN Langleyprime..CIASuspects CS ON CS.Aliases = FF.names
    INNER JOIN NSA_security_Risks NSA ON NSA.First = SS.FirstName and NSA.last = SS.LastName and NSA.middle like ss.middleormaiden
    • There should be a few outer joins there.... SELECT ss.lastname,ss.firstname,* FROM SocialSecurity SS RIGHT OUTER JOIN FBIFiles FF ON SS.C....... Most terrorists probably wont have SocialSecurity Numbers.
  • Congress won't be back in session until after the elections. The only reason they will come back now is if the House and Senate Leadership come to an agreement on the Intelligence Bill.

    I think we're okay for this Congressional Session... but next year its a whole new bag. And with Democrats trying to show they are as patriotic as the next guy, I don't know who privacy rights people can turn to anymore.

    -Niles
  • It NOT the Americans that they need to worry about. We do NOT want invasive measures put on our lives. We do NOT want increased security against our own people. I'm the first person to say, "Let's roll." I'm more apt to rock, but same difference. I'm the least threat for a security breach.

    We, as Americans want business as usual. This is the land of the free and the home of the brave. I'm NOT about to be held hostage by my own government for some supposed "safety." If you want to be wary of foreign nationa

  • remember everyone (Score:5, Interesting)

    by circletimessquare ( 444983 ) <(circletimessquare) (at) (gmail.com)> on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @09:25PM (#10519691) Homepage Journal
    sept 11th was executed with box cutters

    box cutters people

    no amount of technological edge can defeat a few determined a**holes and a simple idea

    we can spend 10 trillion on all sorts of technological doodads to fight terror

    i just wonder what the next simple box cutters-level work around exploit will be

  • The (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Proudrooster ( 580120 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @09:30PM (#10519721) Homepage
    Hmmmm... let's see, what do the majority of terrorists have in common?

    • Males under 40
    • Middle Eastern Descent
    • Believes Allah=God, Religious Book=Qu'ran
    • Wife wears headscarf
    • Daughters hate headscarf
    • Attends Mosque (occasionally if in US)
    • May be here on a student VISA
    • Likes to blow stuff up
    • Likes to take airplane lessons but not learn how to land
    • Likes to drink beer.
    • Likes to goto strip clubs.
    • Has Sadaam Hussein, Favorite Radical Cleric, or Osama Keychain.
    • Usually sends family back home before committing suicide
    • Usually gets decent payout from terrorist organization for his family before committing suicide
    • Buys box cutters
    • Rents housing
    • Pays cash for purchases
    • Doesn't file income taxes


    Do we need a database to figure this stuff out? I think the Four horsemen of the apocalypse [about.com] just want a database so it can be abused. Just wait until the IRS gets it's hooks into it or vice versa. Just wait until it gets hacked and information gets leaked. We all know how good Congress is at securing (sic) their top secret campaign strategies.

    This is a waste of money that will lead to massive abuse, false positives, and turn the government (literally) into Big Brother. It's 1984 about 20 years late.

    To extend the system to its logical conclusion: cameras and RFID sensors will be installed everywhere then everyone will be injected with RFID tags. This will allow anyone to be found instantly (or at least the last known location) for their own safety of course. This would be a great plot line for those whacko's that made the "Left Behind" series. I wonder if they could get Mr. T to say, "Don't even think of implanting that thing in me fool!"

    Actually, I am not too worried since this project will be farmed out to a loser company packed with overpaid consultants that can never pull all the data together. After investing 20 trillion dollars the project will be scrapped only after hundreds of innocent 80 year old ladies have had their doors kicked in by the Department of Homeland security and been hauled off to secret FBI detention centers (accidentally of course). Oh the fun that awaits the American citizen after this system gets funding approved.

    Those who are willing to sacrifice sound quality for harddrive space deserve neither.

  • How is this a surprise? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by HangingChad ( 677530 ) on Wednesday October 13, 2004 @09:39PM (#10519776) Homepage
    People would go through the roof if the police started keeping dossiers on average Americans, now they don't have to. They can let private companies and other government agencies do it for them and conveniently tap into that information river whenever it's convenient.

    You don't value your privacy, then you lose it. Half of America voted for the pinheads making this a reality, you have no one to blame but yourselves.

  • Even as far as private standards go, alot of that data was gathered in a really slimey way. Doubt me? Remember Ad.Doubleclick.net? They were/?are? basically "cyberstalking" internet users across websites. In the face of uproar, their "solution" was to grant users who didn't like [being spied upon] the option of opting out. {opt-in would have been the only ethical way of doing their thing}.

    So now you're telling me that some members of Congress want to commendeer that data, rather than having it destroye
    • Yeah, it's the path of every government: Scare everyone into obedience, offer 'protection', kill anyone who gets in the way, then crash, blame it on anarchy, and start over. Ours is showing the final signs as it's now recklessly throwing out laws, imprisoning anyone in sight, going on killing sprees it can't cover up, etc. Saddam and Hitler didn't get away with it; I doubt the dumbasses in our office can.

      On an interesting note, the government is anticipating a 9/11ish terrorist attack to take place just

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