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Privacy Your Rights Online

Privacy Concerns Moving Into The Mainstream 235

Realistic_Dragon writes "The BBC today ran a thoughtful radio article (website, transcript, real audio) on the issues of privacy vs practicality in our modern society. An ideal primer for those that haven't given these things much thought before, with a balanced treatment of the subject and very few technical errors to drive one up the wall. Listening to the narrator's acerbic comments in reply to those that advocate the innocent have nothing to fear mantra is worth the download alone. Is this the kind of image that is presented in the media in the rest of the world, or are they still running with the 'big brother is your friend' party line?"
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Privacy Concerns Moving Into The Mainstream

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  • Do people care? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by keybsnbits ( 711259 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:02AM (#9919246)
    I certainly hope this is getting accross to the public. But seriously, how many people that don't already know about privacy actually care? I almost feel as if these words have been wasted on an audience that could care less. But I hope the message gest accross. I applaud the reporter who took the time to do the research into these privacy matters.
    • Re:Do people care? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by thogard ( 43403 )
      Many people don't care because deep down, many people are gossips which of course is the original source of lack of privacy. Its just now more people can play that game.

      One major issue is that as population centers get more densely populated, people feel less safe and are desperate to find a security blanket and for most, they are happy with the cops having a good security system to keep them safe. The problem with that is the cops don't make much use of the system and they may end up being worse than not
    • Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:40AM (#9919509)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • I completely agree... on the other hand, I don't think corporations are at fault. They are huge machines, basically, and the only way to truly stop them is through government and laws. So, change our governments - make them fight for what they once stood for - as opposed to our now imperialistic, tyrannic nation.

        and a side note, you mentioned how drug/alcohol use was at an all-time high. These things free you from control, look at all the past/present independent artists. It's very hard to control people o
        • The problem with what some of the people here are saying is this; the modern corporation is an intentional government construct. Corporations, and dominated monopolies, do not naturally appear in a free market.

          Since corporations are government constructed, and not created within a free market, you cannot blame capitalism for this.

          FDR and Wilson, two of the most anti-capitalistic Presidents in U.S. History, were key players in the creation of the modern corporation.

          You're proposing making more government
      • "Until we recognise that governments, law enforcement agencies, corporations and the RIAA are all just trying to control us."

        While I agree with everything else you said, this is not quite the way I see it.

        People in general are quite happy to act like cattle (or consumers, if you wish) without any active controlling by the corporations.

        However, the corporations are trying, very hard, to control the legislators, who in their greed go along. It's sad that the people, who are supposed to represent the people
      • Public Pizza (Score:5, Informative)

        by wayward ( 770747 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @12:40PM (#9921690)
        ACLU came up with an good privacy presentation. Imagine trying to order pizza at a place where they already know everything about you.... http://www.aclu.org/pizza/index.html?orgid=EA07190 4&MX=1414&H=0 [aclu.org]
      • by Idarubicin ( 579475 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @12:56PM (#9921852) Journal
        Then we wonder why teenage pregnancies, binge drinking and drugs are at an all time high...

        Minor nitpicks...

        The teenage pregnancy (and abortion) rates in the United States are actually significantly lower now than they have been in the past two decades. (CDC release [cdc.gov].) Teen pregnancy fell steeply throughout the 1990s, and continues to decline. Teen pregnancy is still higher in the United States than in other developed countries, but I suspect that that can be largely attributed to the deliberate policy of restricting information about and access to birth control techniques.

        Use of most illegal drugs (including marijuana and cocaine) is actually falling. Use of alcohol among young people has also declined. (CDC summaries [cdc.gov].

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          Comment removed based on user account deletion
          • Fair enough. It's usually disillusionment with US policy that comes up on Slashdot, and I made an unwarranted assumption.

            On the other hand, the most recent stats I can find from the National Health Service (NHS) seem to indicate that teen pregnancy rates are declining in the UK, and have been since 1998 [nhsinherts.nhs.uk]. Teen pregnancy rates in the UK, while the highest in Western Europe, still remain well below the rate in the United States.

            The most recent NHS data [doh.gov.uk] that I could find seem to indicate that alcohol and

        • > Use of most illegal drugs (including marijuana and cocaine) is actually falling. Use of alcohol among young people has also declined. (CDC summaries.

          And in other news, studies report that kids in the post-privacy age are 99.4% more likely to lie on government surveys than they were ten years ago!

      • by Anonymous Coward

        As a society, we are becoming more and more introverted - we don't socialise with our neighbours any more and we think that bringing up kids is about handing over responsibilities of parenthood to the teachers until they get home from school whereupon they're thrown a Macdonalds hamburger and sat if front of a games console for the evening.

        This one really struck home for me.

        I'm nineteen years old, so I pretty recently finished my K-12 years. And boy did I have a hard time at it. My teachers, especially

    • What's especially creepy is that groups like the EFF are now getting interested in monitoring network traffic. In their case, as part of a "solution" to compensate authors when their work gets p2p'd.

      Look here [eff.org] and see for yourself: "Figuring out what is popular can be accomplished through a mix of anonymously monitoring what people are sharing."

      Even if we believed in "anonymous monitoring" there would then be no way to detect when people are cheating through download bots, etc...

    • Re:Do people care? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Sir Holo ( 531007 ) *
      But seriously, how many people that don't already know about privacy actually care?

      This is a step toward wide public attention, when the mainstream press starts to pick up on a new issue. After being reported by BBC (or NY Times, The Atlantic, etc.), smaller media outlets are much more likely to report on the topic. It filters down. The hard work is done - learning and then describing the major points of a complex thing in simple terms. A small paper can't afford to do this. Outlets in other media s
  • But (Score:4, Interesting)

    by lachlan76 ( 770870 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:03AM (#9919252)
    A lot of people can't accept that if you go out in public, you lose privacy. It really doesn't matter if your mobil phone company can find your position, because you're transmitting RF to their towers. I EXPECT them to know roughly where I am from which tower I am connected to.

    CCTV cameras? They can't be serious, how much damage do CCTV cameras do? How much damage would have been done if the shops can't see who's stealing stuff? Privacy is important, but if CCTV cameras are a problem, then don't go into shops. If camera phones are a problem to you, don't go out in public. They can't invade your privacy unless you let them.
    • Re:But (Score:3, Interesting)

      by wiggys ( 621350 )
      > It really doesn't matter if your mobil phone company can find your position, because you're transmitting RF to their towers

      If you commit a crime then make sure you give your mobile phone to someone else - that way you can "prove" you weren't in the area.
      • You just shown intent. You can rule out an insanity plea or a spur of the moment, didn't know what I was doing your honor.

        You got two kind of people, dumb criminals and those who are never caught. Innocents? Wich planet have you been living on?

    • Re:But (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:11AM (#9919306)
      No, public spaces are not private. However, if you cannot see the difference between "not private" and "under constant surveilance" then you are a wanker.
    • Re:But (Score:3, Informative)

      by mikeophile ( 647318 )
      They can't invade your privacy unless you let them.

      Really? [slashdot.org]
    • Re:But (Score:4, Insightful)

      by skrysakj ( 32108 ) * on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:31AM (#9919438) Homepage Journal
      Double but!

      Public space is part of a city/town/country, where we live.
      That country is made up of the people that run it: citizens, who own it, and create its laws.
      That's why Britain has a parliament and the US is a democracy/republic built by the people, for the people.

      Public space is *ours* to control, maintain, and pass laws for.
      We are not hostages in our own country, who should stay home to avoid such things.
    • CCTV has the effect of moving crime away from the cameras, away from the built up wealth and down the very streets where we live.

      Would you rather you home or your workpalce broken into?
    • Re:But (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Oddly_Drac ( 625066 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:54AM (#9919608)
      "They can't be serious, how much damage do CCTV cameras do?"

      In a fairly well-publicised case in the UK, a man was caught by camera using a cash machine within a time when someone used a cloned card. The police showed the film on TV so they could eliminate the man from their enquiries.

      However, people who saw it assumed that he was guilty, and he lost his job and suffered a great deal of indignity before the mess was sorted out. He was just a guy legitimately using a cash machine.

      One of the main problems is that people assume that cameras are infallible; relying on the output of a camera without _accurate_ context is a big problem.

      "They can't invade your privacy unless you let them."

      [sigh]

      I have a camera across the road from my house. Despite that camera being there, I've been burgled once already. Apparently nobody staffs the camera and checking up I found it's actually placed and operated in contravention with the Data Protection Act. Now someone paid for the camera to be installed, but it's deterrent value has been slashed to nothing. I'd rather than they used the money for some useful social ordering than following a bandwagon like putting CCTV everywhere. It encourages laziness of the institutional kind.

      As for invading your privacy unless you let them; if you don't know about the invasion, then you can hardly consent. I was told by the installers of the camera that a guy had been caught in his front room committing an illegal act. If true, then that's a huge invasion of privacy that could be justified by saying that the illegal act was more important than privacy. However, the end should never justify the means because that's the path to a police state.

  • by MrRTFM ( 740877 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:04AM (#9919255) Journal
    ... as far as the average user is concerned.

    If someone thinks that they need this software 'blah', then they are going to install it, no matter what the 282 page EULA says.
  • BBC (Score:5, Insightful)

    by eean ( 177028 ) <slashdotNO@SPAMmonroe.nu> on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:05AM (#9919264) Homepage
    The BBC often (and perhaps ironically) often takes an antiauthoritarian position. Their interviews are great since they're so much more combative then what you're used to from NPR and our media in general - they really try to get their guests to answer questions.
    • Re:BBC (Score:5, Informative)

      by Alioth ( 221270 ) <no@spam> on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:20AM (#9919363) Journal
      You ought to listen to the "Today" programme. I'm assuming since you mention NPR you are from the US. I doubt any US politician would have the guts to go on the 'Today' programme if it were commonly broadcast in the US. Top politicians of many countries have come in for an intense grilling off John Humprys and James Noughoty. The same goes for the afternoon current affairs programme, 'PM' (5pm-6pm weekdays).

      It can be quite entertaining, especially when the politicians try to dodge the questions in the normal way (usually by answering the question they'd rather have been asked) and the interviewer tells them bluntly that they didn't actually answer the question, then ask it again!

      • "You ought to listen to the "Today" programme."

        Always brightens up my day to hear Blunkett flustered, or some hapless PR flak being dismantled on air.

      • Re:BBC (Score:4, Interesting)

        by R.Caley ( 126968 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @09:16AM (#9919793)
        Top politicians of many countries have come in for an intense grilling off John Humprys and James Noughoty

        I loved the interview with the saudi bod (ambasador? minister?) the other morning. After he sniffily said he was there to talk about Iraq, not the diplomatic immunity squabble, the interviewer politely said `yes I know' and asked him aboput the diplomatic immunity thing again. You could hear the guy's blood pressure going up. He was clearly not used to being actually expected to say something meaningful.

        • Re:BBC (Score:2, Funny)

          The one that I loved the other day was listening to Eddie Mair on PM interviewing the Sudanese Ambassador to the UK, Dr Hasan Abdin.

          In the interview, Dr Abdin continually denied there was any humanitarian disaster happening in the Darfur region of Sudan, any government arming of the Janjaweed and so on.

          Eddie then calmly said to the Ambassador: "Mr Ambassador, do you sleep well at night?".

          Priceless; I've never heard such a pompous arsehole deflated in such spectacular form before. In fact, I think we n

      • Re:BBC (Score:3, Insightful)

        You ought to listen to the "Today" programme

        Its a brilliant start to the day to hear an arrogant politician be reduced to a mumbling fool. This kind of programme is all-too-rare, and is sorely needed to keep politicians in check, easily my favourite part of the radio schedule.
      • Jeremy Paxman once asked Michael Howard, a top-figure in the Conservative Party the same question "did you threaten to overrule him" fourteen times in succession in an attempt to get a straight answer.

        It was shown in a satirical programme (The Day Today, which features fake news, much like The Onion) unedited. And quite rightly.

        Sadly this [bbc.co.uk] is a dead link.
        • Paxman. Right, uh . . can you help us with this then . . ?

          You stated in your statement that the Leader of the Opposition had said that I (that is, you) personally told Mr Lewis that the governor of Parkhurst should be suspended immediately, and that when Mr Lewis objected as it was an operational matter, "I threatened to INSTRUCT HIM to do it".

          Derek Lewis says "Howard had CERTAINLY told me that the Governor of Parkhurst should be suspended, and had threatened to overrule me". Are you saying Mr Lewis is ly
      • by gorbachev ( 512743 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @12:00PM (#9921287) Homepage
        The difference between the BBC and US News Media is that BBC reporters are reporters, the reporters in the US are by and large entertainers.
  • by TyrranzzX ( 617713 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:05AM (#9919266) Journal
    We don't trust the government or corporations becuase they have gone from "protecting our rights" mode to "enslave the entire population" mode. How can we trust them when they're using the technology to enslave people instead of relieving us of work so we have more time to do other things?
    • by jintxo ( 698154 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:19AM (#9919357) Homepage
      I've been having this exact conversation with a bunch of my friends lately... What happened to the 1960's idea of technological advancement, where in the future computers and machines would produce stuff while humans could have more time to spend on doing the things they like? Was it a lie to sell us all this new crap, or was it idealism? I'm kind of cynical about all this.
    • *WE* can't trust them but the rest of the population does with little or no questioning. All in the name of protection from terrorists, communists, or whatever.

      We need to learn from History.
    • Forget "relieving us of work." Back when technology was glowingly thoought to "relieve us of work" we forgot that doing so would also "relieve us of a paycheck." Even though one can accept that you'll need to improve your skills, learn new things, etc, the assumption that there'll be even more new higher-skill jobs doesn't play true.

      At the executive level, you implement technology to improve profitability. Eliminating low-level jobs, only to require more high-level jobs doesn't make economic sense, unless
    • We don't trust the government or corporations becuase they have gone from "protecting our rights" mode to "enslave the entire population" mode. How can we trust them when they're using the technology to enslave people instead of relieving us of work so we have more time to do other things?
      This is not the reason. The real reason is the deeply rooted mistrust of the State that is so prevalent in anglo-saxon cultures, stemming back from the 1215 Magna-Carta.

    • ...relieving us of work...

      You mean like unemployment? It's nice having the extra free time, it's just the relative poverty that becomes a problem...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:08AM (#9919283)
    Oh great, now everyone knows about my privacy concerns!
  • by alnya ( 513364 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:09AM (#9919290)
    From the transcript:
    The response of Scott McNealy, boss of Sun Microsystems and one of the most outspoken figures of Silicon Valley, to the challenge from
    electronic devices was famously blunt. "You have zero privacy," he said. "Get over it."


    Much as this is the unpopular stance to take here, I think we do have zero privacy, and hopefully more people can learn what this means for them.
    What has alwauys comforted me in the past, however, is that to exchange informatation about my purchases, my bank details, my crimial record and my health records would be rediculously complicated with vastly different systems of data storage being used.
    Mibby I'm just sticking my head in the sand, but there's a difference between being watched and having data stored about me, and it being available to different people beyond it's intended purpose.
    That's why I opposed the RIPA extensions act [hmso.gov.uk].
    Sorry, got OT there...
    • by danamania ( 540950 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:25AM (#9919399)
      Mibby I'm just sticking my head in the sand, but there's a difference between being watched and having data stored about me, and it being available to different people beyond it's intended purpose.

      That's how the whole system works, by only pushing so far into people's privacy. I see it the same way too, and if it were black & white then Scott McNealy would be right - with all the ways we can be tracked, the potential is there for having NO privacy. My phone company knows when I make calls and when I receive them, and who to & who from. My ISP knows when I'm online, the IPs I make contact with, and I bet if they wanted they could tell what I'm transferring. My electricity and gas suppliers know when I'm at home, and cameras in stores & on roads can know where I am much of the time.

      But for most purposes, none of this information is used outside its intended purposes. Not every random-joe gets to look up my phone details, nor trace all my movements, or see what I'm downloading. It's a little of my privacy stripped away in pieces for each separate institution that needs it, which does total up to a technical complete-lack-of-privacy... but it still works because they don't all get together to analyse my particular movements in life. The complete loss of privacy is only a potential one.

      Besides, any business with even five separate departments trying to all communicate with each other about what they're doing has logistics problems keeping together, heaven help the hundreds of institutions that keep info on me if they tried to organise themselves enough to get any sane information from what they have on me.
      • "But for most purposes, none of this information is used outside its intended purposes."

        Obviously you're not familiar with Acxiom.
      • But for most purposes, none of this information is used outside its intended purposes. Not every random-joe gets to look up my phone details, nor trace all my movements, or see what I'm downloading. It's a little of my privacy stripped away in pieces for each separate institution that needs it, which does total up to a technical complete-lack-of-privacy... but it still works because they don't all get together to analyse my particular movements in life. The complete loss of privacy is only a potential one.
    • Mibby I'm just sticking my head in the sand, but there's a difference between being watched and having data stored about me, and it being available to different people beyond it's intended purpose.

      If the government suddenly decided they didn't like you, they could grab your file and furtle about until they dug up some dirt.

      But why would your government decide they don't like you? Remember the Paddington Train Crash ... Pam Warren was particularly effective in criticising the Government and they set the [bbc.co.uk]

  • by garcia ( 6573 ) * on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:09AM (#9919293)
    BAMFORD: It's something that people cherish.
    I think it's something that we do need to safeguard. I think it's
    important to recognise that privacy, rather like trust and confidence -
    once you've lost it, it's very, very difficult, if not possible, ever to
    regain. It's something we need to work hard not to lose in the first
    place.


    CAIRNCROSS: One of the most powerful symbols
    of intrusion into privacy has been the ability of the authorities to watch
    over us. In that sense, George Orwell's Big Brother is alive and well,
    and gleefully acquiring all the latest gadgetry. There are close-circuit
    television cameras on almost every street corner, speed cameras, and
    cameras that monitor people entering London's congestion charging
    zone. Caoilfhionn Gallagher is a lawyer with Liberty, a campaigning
    group on civil liberties, and follows the latest monitoring technologies.
    What are her current concerns?


    They talk as if most people care. Most people ignore the traffic cameras, the red-light cameras, the bank cameras, the whatever cameras... They openly hand over their address and telephone number to anyone who asks (in person, on the telephone, or over the Internet). These are the people that tell you that you are paranoid when you suggest to them that they might want to keep that information more private than they already are.

    HARKIN: In Scandinavia and in Japan, you
    have services whereby young people can pass along street corners and
    they can be automatically hooked up via location based tracking to
    someone who meets their personal profile for the purposes of dating or
    finding a friend.


    And people want this? Can't people make up their mind for themselves?

    CRAWFORD: We can track a mobile phone even
    if it's not in use. As long as the phone is on, we can track it every
    minute of the day - in rural countryside, in cities. And, for example, in
    London we can track it right down to if somebody was in, for example,
    Earl's Court Exhibition Centre, we can know they're in that building.
    In rural countryside, it's a little bit wide - I mean we'd know what hill
    they're on.

    CAIRNCROSS: Now that's wonderful if you're a
    parent worrying about your child. But another usage is for companies
    to track their employees. And I think you suggest it is a way of making
    sure that your employee is secure if they are late returning to the office,
    but you and I know that what employers really want to know is is the
    guy in the pub or is he doing what he's supposed to be doing.


    Back to the "save the children" thing. Let's stop appealing to the paranoid, careless parent who wants everyone else to know where his kid is and let's pay attention to the fact that it is intrusive and basically unnecessary.

    CRAWFORD: Well what we're doing is we're
    actually sending messages on a regular basis to phones to make sure
    they continue to consent. The employee would then receive messages
    saying that that phone is being tracked. He needs to know that that
    phone would have to be the company's property, so really you know
    another way of looking at it is saying the company has a right to know
    where their property is. Obviously this is tracking which is during
    office hours, and it's all been approved by the Information
    Commissioner who's studied it very closely.


    And when you say no? They fire you, right? In this day and age people can't just say, "oh well, I don't need a job w/a company that tracks me, I can find one in a single day somewhere else." Unfortunately for most it doesn't seem to work that way.

    This is the same stuff rehashed as always. We need to better educate the public to remind them that this sort of intrusion is not a necessary part of their lives no matter how much the government and third parties want to make it be.
    • by geirhe ( 587392 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:36AM (#9919478)
      HARKIN: In Scandinavia and in Japan, you have services whereby young people can pass along street corners and they can be automatically hooked up via location based tracking to someone who meets their personal profile for the purposes of dating or finding a friend.

      And people want this? Can't people make up their mind for themselves?

      Sure they can. But if you are in "dating mode" (or whatever), why shouldn't you be willing to broadcast the fact? Apparently, this is happening anonymously via bluetooth, mostly. Why shouldn't you go into a singles bar or use any of the other ways of communicating the fact that you are available, interested in someone who wants to go with you to a concert, need someone to eat dinner with or whatever. You are the one who chooses to make this information public, and you get matches only from other people with the same stated interest (although not necessarily the same goal) as yourself. This is not the system choosing for you, this is an attempt to link people who are broadcasting something similar.

      According to the media, this has also gone to the point of people broadcasting "willing to have sex". If two people are both interested, they find out who owns the other (bluetooth-enabled, mostly) phone by arranging to meet somewhere. I assume this is something every male geek out there has dreamt about.

      It is up to you to choose to broadcast your intent to do something. I can't see what is so wrong about this, or why this stops you "making up you mind for yourself". You still get to see the girl/guy/whatever before you are dragged off to meet their family, you know.

      Next time you pass a gorgeous girl, ponder what might happen if she actually _had_ the same interests as you instead of you coming across as a complete jerk trying to pick her up with some old pick-up-line.

      No, I am not using these services. I just think you are judging a service without knowing enough about it.

  • Nothing to hide (Score:5, Insightful)

    by xyote ( 598794 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:14AM (#9919328)
    "If you aren't doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to hide and nothing to fear".

    How do people reconcile that with the privacy provisions in the U.S. constitution? Obviously they wouldn't have put them in there if they had thought there was nothing to worry about. I don't think the writers of the constitution were given to empty aphorisms.

    • Re:Nothing to hide (Score:2, Informative)

      by alnya ( 513364 )
      Amendment IV - Search and seizure.

      The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


      The new bill of rights. [sdbillofrights.org]
    • Re:Nothing to hide (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 09, 2004 @09:28AM (#9919880)
      I guess the police won't mind if I pull the GPS data from the police car MDTs and put it up on a map in real time. (Passively, it's part of their data transmissions.) If they're not doing anything wrong, they have nothing to hide.
    • First off, I think that privacy is good and agree w/ the spirit of the parent. However, who's to say that the US Constitution is some magically ordained super-document that is completely infallible and utterly trustworthy? It was written by men. Smart men, true, but still just men. It's great to have a common root for our legal/government practices, and to keep a (relatively) clear and concise record, but why this continual return to "the Constitution from 225 years ago says so!"? If we dropped some of
      • However, who's to say that the US Constitution is some magically ordained super-document that is completely infallible and utterly trustworthy?

        Few are suggesting that the Constitution is infallible. Most are suggesting that if the Constitution, the document which created our system of government, says something, we should at least look at why they wrote it that way.

        It was written by men. Smart men, true, but still just men. It's great to have a common root for our legal/government practices, and to kee
      • If we dropped some of the stigma around the Constitution, it could be _changed_ and actually be a living document that helps the US develop into the future.

        If we dropped some of the stigma around the Constitution, it could be _changed_, and become yet another plaything for the short-term, short-sighted, bigoted political agendas of the moment.

        Furthermore, it's not the "the Constitution from 225 years ago". The Amendments from 1804 (12th, electoral college), 1865-1870 (13th-15th ending slavery and gran

      • > If we dropped some of the stigma around the Constitution, it could be _changed_ and actually be a living document that helps the US develop into the future

        Because if it can be changed to help us, it can also be changed (more easily) to hurt us... horribly. THAT is why the constitution must not change.
  • What do you define as innocent on the net these days. Just by simply clickin on certain web sites malicious users have just marked you, obtained your ip address and have more than enough effective tools to obtain information from your computer. Sadly, there is no fool proof method of security. One can easily setup most firewalls these days with little understanding of what's really going on, but is a firewall enough? Should there maybe not be some kind of anonymous connection from the users ISP to the world
  • BBC (Score:5, Informative)

    by bobintetley ( 643462 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:20AM (#9919364)

    Is this the kind of image that is presented in the media in the rest of the world, or are they still running with the 'big brother is your friend' party line?"

    Quote from Douglas Adams in Wired [yoz.com].
    ...Television companies are not in the business of delivering television programmes to their audiences, they're in the business of delivering audiences to their advertisers. (This is why the BBC has such a schizophrenic time - it's actually in a different business from all its competitors)...
  • by grunt107 ( 739510 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @08:22AM (#9919380)
    There are many facets to the electronic snooping being done today. Mobile phone locators can be both bad and good - take for example an elderly gentleman having chest pains. If he cannot communicate his location, then the signal-tracking might save his life. My employer having the ability to see I visited the nudie bar 20 times a month is a privacy invasion.
    The government being able to thermal image a 'warrant'-ed drug house is OK. Using it whenever is not. To go further into the paranoia realm, some states in the US still have arcane laws on the books like '2 unwed people shall not engage in sexual activities' OR '2 unwed people shall not co-habitate'. With advanced thermal/spectral imaging law enforcement can 'snoop' and arrest said people.

    If I choose to give my personal information away (or walk in public where cameras are present), that is OK. If I am on my own property and no one has a warrant for illegal activity monitoring, it is privacy invasion and the invaders should be arrested/fined/flogged with a noodle.
    Time for more tin foil...
  • While this may be a little off-topic, in an effort to get a slightly better privacy/security profile, I've been researching a bunch of anonymizer services. I'm looking for something that will either let me configure a web proxy to use from a browser (transparent to the user) or a full-blown VPN, for more than web traffic. Does anyone know of any other sites that offer this? Are they reputable? How can I find out?

    The ones I'm looking at are findnot.com and anonymize.net but I know there have to be more out
  • by gilroy ( 155262 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @09:10AM (#9919744) Homepage Journal
    on Salon: Three Cheers for the Surveillance Society! [salon.com]. I can't say I agree with everything he says but I think there's a lot of merit in it.

    Bottom line executive summary: Privacy is dead; get over it. Instead of trying to hide everything we do, we should insist that every citizen has the same access to surveillance technologies that the government does. He offers the Rodney King tapes and the Abu Gharib prison photos as ways in which saturation surveillance has advanced the cause of justice and the empowerment of the citizenry.

    Worth a read, in any event.
  • by awol ( 98751 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @10:10AM (#9920232) Journal
    Look, it's simple. There is public life and private life. Public life is where I go to interact with others to help me form identity and have discourse on the subjects that matter for us all. Private life is where I sustain myself in order to participate in public life. The tradition of this distinction is from the dawn of democracy from Plato and Aristotle, through Hobbes all the way up to Arendt and others in the 20th Century.

    Now private life is constantly being eroded and it is time to stop. I want to DESIGN my society so that when I choose to interact in public and in particular with the state then the state should be able to demand that I authenticate my entitlement to do so, however this does not require that i identify myself. This is what technology can bring. We can have both. A completely accurate entitlements system that does not require the revelation of identity to the organs of the state (except in order to establish the entitlement).

    My health care records can be kept on a big central database but they should not be able to link that with my social security records. It is _I_ who provides them with that link when I authenticate my entitlement to free health care because of my social security status. Further that big database needs to know _nothing_ about my identity specifics other than they are the file 61272123. I know that the records for 61272123 are mine but the state does not need to know. Similarly the state can know that medical procedure 2453/CD/2321 for file 61272123 received an entitlement token, MPET23/5T from the Social security entitlement system and that is all it needs to know.

    Technology of the kind that all the centralists love can completely enable their utopian vision of eliminating fraud for public services etc etc, but it can be done without even having to compromise my right to privacy, and it doesn't even need law it can be done technically. there are logistical issues for this vision, but they are not an order of magnitude different to the ones that exist for the current idea of "biometric id cards".

    The fundamental thing is for us to decide what we want. And what I want is to be able to walk out of my house without having to carry a card that enables the state to prove _who_ I am because until I choose to enter the public sphere about which I spoke earlier, the state can just fuck righ off out of my private life.

    On the flip side, it is up to me to price the value of my privacy wrt to banking, mobile phone etc and decide whether using these services (or specialised privacy enhanced version at a premium) is currently worth the cost. the examples of how this can be implemented are many and varied _already_ technology can only make them more effective.

    As for preventition of terrorism, crime, even fraud, I am all for it, but not at the expense of designing a state that is built around knowing every facet of my life. I want the privacy. It should be _my_ choice as to when I leave my mark in public (so to speak) not the state's.

    Sorry for the rant.
  • by Sir Holo ( 531007 ) * on Monday August 09, 2004 @10:22AM (#9920328)

    I challenge you, try to explain this topic to a non-technical person. In their terms, not yours. It's really hard.

    Try this analogy:
    Ever been deer hunting? If someone has no idea how deer behave, do they any chance of bagging one? No. If you know how to deal with their habits and preferences (stand downwind, near water, etc..), then you have a much better chance, don't you?


    Well, now imagine that Pepsi Co. wants some of your money. How much will it help their marketing department to have a much more fine-grained understanding of consumer behavior than they have now? They've got a much better chance, don't they?

    Now imagine how easy deer hunting would be if they all wore radio collars, so you could track them.

    True this is only one aspect of the privacy issue, but you don't want to over-challenge yourself. See how it works.
  • by Ed Avis ( 5917 ) <ed@membled.com> on Monday August 09, 2004 @12:31PM (#9921593) Homepage
    But Big Brother is your friend in many cases... given the choice between Big Brother and Uncle Osama which would you support?

    More seriously, few people dispute that CCTV in public places (for example) has helped in solving some crimes and deterring some others. Being afraid to go out at night, or use a mobile phone in public, is a much greater curtailment of liberty than almost anything the government might dream up. I don't see why we shouldn't trade one form of liberty for another.

Keep up the good work! But please don't ask me to help.

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