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Businesses Government The Almighty Buck The Courts Your Rights Online News

German Court Fixes Book Prices On Ebay 77

Posted by timothy from the road-to-serfdom dept.
krez writes "Yesterday, a German court decided that it is illegal to sell books below the prices set by publishing houses. In the court's view, German books are exempt from EU free-market restrictions because they represent an "important cultural good". I guess this is what happens when the rights of collectives, and groups of peoples supersede the rights of the individual to do with his property as he/she sees fit. The implications of this could be far reaching, having an impact on your right to sell old CDs, DVDs, perhaps even art?"
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German Court Fixes Book Prices On Ebay More

German Court Fixes Book Prices On Ebay

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  • At least it does in Germany.. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by cfoster611 ( 219409 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @09:58AM (#9506545) Homepage
    Though the way international law works these days, it wouldn't surprise me to see this judgment fester and infect those of other EU member states or even the US.

  • nothing new at all (Score:5, Informative)

    by fluxmov ( 519552 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @10:01AM (#9506574)
    The German "Buchpreisbindung" (fixed prices for professional sellers) has been in effect for a long time. It has nothing to do with DVDs etc. The only "new" thing about it is the court's decision that it's also valid for eBay, which doesn't really come as a surprise.
    • According to the article this does not affect people who sell used books and collectibles? "The court's decision made clear that even private sellers have to stick to the fixed book price if they regularly sell new books."

      What this ruling (and the law it's based on) also does is prevent companies like Barnes & Noble from selling at prices below cover, to the detriment of smaller book-sellers who don't get the same volume discounts. Wonder if this applies to the German arm of Amazon, too?

      Note: I do
    • Buchpreisbindung
      Bush preisbindung
      Bush pres bindung
      Bush pres dung
      Bush president dung .... oohhh i see now.

  • i can see it now. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Unknown Poltroon ( 31628 ) * <unknown_poltroon1sp@myahoo.com> on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @10:01AM (#9506582)
    Hi. You are not bidding on this copy of harry potter starting at 1$, you are bidding on this extriemely durable shipping container. The book is merely being included to keep the container from blowing away or being crushed during shipping. THank you.

    • Re:i can see it now. (Score:5, Funny)

      by Apiakun ( 589521 ) <tikora AT gmail DOT com> on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @10:13AM (#9506708)
      Great idea :) "We are not offering the following unreleased album in mp3 format. We are simply providing a collection of ones and zeros with which you can test your ISP's downstream connection. We insist that you not save this data upon completion of the network bandwidth test."
      • This gives me an interesting idea - take some copyrighted file and encrypt it with a weak password - using RAR, AES, whatever. Change the extension and offer it for download as "large blocks of pseudorandom data for scientific applications". You could even use a file splitter to split it so you don't have a bunch of conspicuous 700mb filesizes. Then a master list would be made telling you what to download for which files - ie files 1, 3, 7 and 14 make up such and such.

        I've never heard of it done before, b

  • ridiculous.. (Score:2, Redundant)

    by gl4ss ( 559668 )
    and will never stay up when taken higher..

    The publisher sold the books anyways already ONCE...

    .
    • and will never stay up when taken higher..

      Do you know anything about the German legal system? Or do you just think that a higher court should overturn this decision because it's unreasonable?
      • *Do you know anything about the German legal system? Or do you just think that a higher court should overturn this decision because it's unreasonable?*

        huh, they could always go bitch about into the EU's legal organ meant for such bitching after they run out of german systems to bitch in. that's what we Finns do anyways when we think that the parliament is trying to give us only the parts of EU it wants(look, we want to bring cheap cars and cheap booze from other EU countries, we really do! but that didn't

  • Right of First Sale? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Chilltowner ( 647305 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @10:08AM (#9506653) Homepage Journal
    I am totally ignorant of German law, but is there a German (or EU) principle in copyright similar to the American right of first sale [bc.edu]? Basically, in the States, "once a copyright owner sells a copy of his work to another, the copyright owner relinquishes all further rights to sell or otherwise dispose of that copy." Does this not pertain in Europe? When do the copyright owner's rights end? Do they ever? This could be a dangerous precedent, especially if it contradicts the established legal tradition.

    • Re:Right of First Sale? (Score:4, Informative)

      by sapbasisnerd ( 729448 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @10:26AM (#9506888)
      RTFA this decision is about selling NEW books. It does not conflict with Right of First Sale.
      • Reread the original post, then think about how books get from the publisher to your hands. That's right, they're sold by the publisher to the bookstore (or eBay seller). That's the first sale, and that's what this ruling is all about. If you buy a book from someone (not the publisher) and then resell it, you're really selling a used book, even if you've never read it.

        So yeah, this decision is specifically about the right of first sale; or rather, it's saying that there is no such right in Germany when

        • Good point, though the sale from manufacturer to retailer may not be considered to be the 'first sale'. I'm not absolutely sure of the legalities of this in any part of the world, but that interpretation has stuck to my head for some reason.

        • Re:Right of First Sale? (Score:2, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward

          There's two simple answers to this:

          First, you don't know the publishing business. (I've spent 6 years in it.) Publishers deal with bookshops on a "sale or return" basis. The publisher only gets the money on books that are actually sold by the bookstore; unsold ones are returned. So really, there is no sale from the publisher to the bookstore: the publisher just supplies the bookstore with books and takes a cut on whateve gets sold.

          Secondly, the publisher can set a resale price with the bookstore as part o

  • RTA (Score:5, Insightful)

    by blankmange ( 571591 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @10:11AM (#9506681)
    This is also in Germany and there is one interesting note in the article:

    "The court's decision made clear that even private sellers have to stick to the fixed book price if they regularly sell new books. "

    Looks like if they are used books, you have no restrictions... now we have to have "used" defined...
  • It's not over yet. There are higher level courts in Germany and EU, aren't there? I bet they won't see German books as important enough cultural good to exempt them from EU free market.

  • Like scalping tickets... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by svenjob ( 671129 ) <vtsvenjob.gmail@com> on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @10:12AM (#9506695)
    It's similar to not being able to sell tickets for a sporting event or concert to people below their listed price.
    • Scalpers wouldn't do very well if they sold tickets below the price they paid for them. In fact, I think it's legal in most places to sell the tickets you bought for less than their listed price - the problem is people who make money reselling them at higher prices.

      If someone was buying up every copy of a book and then ransoming them on EBay for huge prices, that would be a different situation. It also wouldn't work, as if a book is scarce they just print more. They can't just print more seats in a stad

    • Re:Like scalping tickets... (Score:5, Informative)

      by Phleg ( 523632 ) <stephen AT touset DOT org> on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @11:44AM (#9507753)
      Er, scalping tickets is when you sell tickets above their listed price. The problem is that tickets inherently have a limited utility, and supply decreases towards their end-of-life (hence, raising their value and price). That way, one person might buy 100 tickets for a show that will be sold out, and sell them with a 200% markup to fans outside the stadium, since there's effectively a zero supply.
      • Doesn't Ticketmaster effectively do the same thing? Why should it be any more legal for them to buy up tickets and set a price? They have a contract? Every time you sell a ticket, it's a contract. A ticket is a seat. If they don't want people to be scalping tickets, then they shouldn't sell lots of tickets to the same person. The stupidity is that there's nothing stopping a place from doing *exactly* what the scalper does, since it's the same idea that airlines use for tickets. If a scalper is willin

  • First Sale Doctrine? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by image ( 13487 )
    So I take it that German copyright law doesn't include the same Right Of First Sale [ncsu.edu] that the U.S. law does? Basically, U.S. law gives us the right to resell, or rent, copyrighted works. The VHS rental market would never have taken off if not for the right of first sale, for example.

    I'm no expert on this though, especially not for European laws -- can someone comment on why Germany can get away with this?

  • In France the price of books is fixed by law, and is allowed only a very small variance (along the lines of 5%, and only for special operations i think). The direct consequence of this is that you can still find small and/or specialized bookshops in almost every part town .

    Now, this is not the case for records. As a direct result there is very few specialized/independant recordshops left since the buying power of them hudge megastores allowed for unrivalled price and almost no independant recordshop surv

    • (Sarcasstic, but not really) Wow, everyone pays more so that some businesses can make a profit. I had no idea Europeans were, despite protestations to the contrary, so dominated by the concerns of business!

      • everyone pays more
        I don't know : my music is cheaper in indie stores, because it does not come with expensive ad campains et al.
        Granted it's not the same music but I think it's a general consensus that the price of records is too high, and this is in a model that includes the no-price-limit & megastore.

        • but I think it's a general consensus that the price of records is too high

          A general consensus? A consensus consisting of who exactly? The millions of people who buy CD's? If there was truly a consensus as you claim, people wouldn't buy CD's.

          • OKay I'm going to nit pick here. Just because there is a consensus that CD prices are too high doesn't automatically mean that people will stop buying them.

            A consensus is an agreement, that is all. What action is taken from there is up to the parties involved.

            • I dont agree with your assertion. Every time anyone buys something they are making a decision: "Is product X worth Y dollars to me?"

              If people are buying CD's at there current cost, people clearly value CD's worth Y dollars. This is a personal decision. Where do you get this nebulous concept of a imaginary consensus, and what prices "should" be? Prices are what they are, and as long as people are buying, this isn't likely to change.
    • There is similar (I guess) price fixing on books here in Norway.

      Books (and newspapers) are also except VAT.

  • Used to be similer in UK (Score:5, Informative)

    by L-s-L69 ( 700599 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @10:17AM (#9506777)
    Over here prices where set, but the big sellers got together and refused to stock a publishers books unless the let them set the price. A court case followed which the sellers won. I encourage Germans to ignore the rule and hope the law sees sense.
    • > A court case followed which the sellers won.

      They won against the Net Book Association because the legislation was a restriction of trade between the states, as it also restricted the sells in Ireland, and from other countries to the UK. This is prohibited by the EU.

      The publishers simply gave up, because the sellers imported the books from the US.

      > I encourage Germans to ignore the rule and hope the law sees sense.

      A similar law in France was abolished in 1979. After seeing the detrimental results
  • No one in his/her right mind will buy a used book and pay the same price as for a new one PLUS shipping. This decision litterally kills 1st sale law, which used to give individuals the right to do as they please with their owned goods: you're not allowed to sell under the given price, and no one will buy from you anyway.

    So now the german book publishing industry has neatly buried its biggest competitor (their own customers!) through litigation. This is a sad day for individual freedoms.

  • Only for New Books (Score:5, Insightful)

    by osiris ( 30004 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @10:40AM (#9507033) Homepage
    This restriction is only on the selling of new books. You can still sell your second hand books on there below the list price.

    If you didnt read the article, it was a suit brought about by a bookseller against a reviewer who was selling unread review copies of books on ebay for under the new selling price.

    I know its slashdot, but try reading the links sometimes. It helps when you want to discuss it.
    • Minor correction: "The court's decision made clear that even private sellers have to stick to the fixed book price if they regularly sell new books." So you can still sell new books for as low as you want on occasion.

    • Re:Only for New Books (Score:3, Informative)

      by Suppafly ( 179830 )
      If you didnt read the article, it was a suit brought about by a bookseller against a reviewer who was selling unread review copies of books on ebay for under the new selling price.

      That would fit the definition of used to most people.. It was sent via mail to someone who took it out of the package and let it sit around their house.. Whether or not you actually read a book doesn't matter. I've sold tons of used college books where the only thing used about them is that they sat around for a semester.
  • First off, This court case is about a journalist selling free samples, effectively first sales of those copies, on Ebay. It has nothing to do with used book trade, which is flourishing here, and will continue to do so. About the price fixing of books, which could be considered as a good thing: Most european countries have laws which govern the price of books. The price is fixed, so that small specialty stores will not be outcompeted by big companies, and so that a wide variety in literature is maintained.

  • Yesterday, a German court decided that it is illegal to sell books below the prices set by publishing houses...The implications of this could be far reaching, having an impact on your right to sell old CDs, DVDs, perhaps even art

    Your right to sell art is already controlled in at least three ways:

    1. Certain subjects are verboten
    2. Resale of art is controlled; you are required to rebate part of your sale to the original artist(!) (droit d'auteur)
    3. They're subject to VAT

    And of course books are sold shrink-wrappe

  • Germany is a socialist country (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    It would be very unsocialist and not to mention discriminatory (which is banned under German law as a hate crime) to allow competition based on price because it would result in only popular books being sold and so a valuable work like Das Capital couldn't be sold in book stores because it has to make space for some drivel from a capitalist pulp writer.

  • Applies only to new books (Score:5, Informative)

    by Florian ( 2471 ) <cantsin@zedat.fu-berlin.de> on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @11:37AM (#9507669) Homepage
    In Germany and Austria, prices for new books are fixed, i.e. a new book
    always costs the same in every bookstore, including web
    bookstores like Amazon, so that bookstores don't compete on price.
    It does, however, not apply to (a) used books, (b) books
    where the rest of an edition is being discounted by the
    publishers, (c) books imported from other countries, (d) any other media, like music CDs, DVDs, software etc..

    This law was made to protect small bookstores with chiefly literary,
    cultural and academic programs from the competition of bookstore
    chains (like Barnes & Noble in the U.S.) and mail order bookstores.
    While one might have different opinions about free markets and free
    pricing, this system indeed works as intended. Unlike in other Western
    countries, Germany and Austria benefit from a wealth of small quality bookstores
    in every town. In addition, there exists - since decades - a very efficient
    national book wholesaler system,
    so that any bookstore, regardless the size, can get any available book
    for a customer usually on the next day (if it's not on stock in the
    store already). Despite all this, Amazon still managed to
    establish a hugely profitable business in Germany for various reasons -
    the comfort of browsing an online catalogue and because
    they offered, for the first time in Germany, an efficient way of ordering
    English-language books.

    The court decision simply maintains the fixed book price law for Ebay sales of
    new books by commercial traders. It does not apply to Ebay sales of
    second-hand books.

    -F

    • Well, I've lived in London, Paris and Boston, and didn't notice any shortage of independent bookstores in any of those places. They survive because they specialise in the sort of books you don't find in Barnes & Noble or Borders. E.g. in London there are many thriving bookstores specialising in travel, cookery, art, politics, law, poetry, feminism, foreign literature and many other topics.

      It's true that there are not that many independent bookstores surviving on selling popular titles, because they can

  • RTFA (Score:1, Insightful)

    by selfsealingstembolt ( 590231 )
    Only if you sell new books, you have to stick to the fixed prices. And that is what we call "Buchpreisbindung". It guarantees the same price for a book in Austria, Germany and Switzerland and it has good reasons. Basically, if you let resellers set the price, rarely bought books will cost much more, and only the few bestsellers will be cheap.

    See this [mackensen.net] (translation [google.com]).

    This ensures that everyone is able to read books he or she likes, and not only what the masses dictate. Also it allows a publisher to try out
    • For this... what do you define as a rarely bought book?

      Speaking as ignorant American... but the biggest variance in prices for books [fiction] is the format you buy them in (hardcover, paperback, trade paperback). I can find old E.E. Smith trade paperbacks for $13. And there is whole piles of rarely bought books... all for the same price as that POS bestseller.

      Or does this specifically include things like technical manuals and academic text books?

      Nephilium
      - "ALL YOU CAN HOPE FOR IS THE MERCY OF HE

  • So what if it only applies to new books? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by gurps_npc ( 621217 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2004 @03:25PM (#9510766) Homepage
    You guys act like that matters?

    What they are really saying is that they want to protect the inefficient companies that have handling costs of $10, at the expense of the effecient internet sales companies with $1 handling costs.

    Because if the free market was to rule, the idiots that can't sell it for less than cover price would be forced to either go out of business, offer service WORTH the over-charging they ofer, or learn how to be more effecient.

    This ruling prevents the growth of the companies that could sell the books for $1 handling instead of $10, thereby artifically propping up the ridiculous over-priced book stores.

    I read a lot. I buy my books from Barnes and Nobles. I get paper back, not hard cover because of the huge number of books that I buy. I do not use internet services because I like the speed of going in to a book store, picking one I did not know I wanted and begin reading it right away.

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