'Extreme' Web Sites Under Fire From UK Police 1154
An anonymous reader writes "A conference on electronic crime, taking place in London this week, has thrown up some interesting news. Britain's top hi-tech police officer has demanded a crackdown on Web sites devoted to 'abhorrent' subjects such as cannibalism and necrophilia. What happened to freedom of expression online?"
Re:No right to free speech/press (Score:5, Informative)
UKers don't have freedom of speech (Score:0, Informative)
Perhaps you don't understand (Score:3, Informative)
Re:There is no "freedom of expression online" (Score:5, Informative)
Freedom of expression... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Duh (Score:5, Informative)
Remember, the story refers to the UK, not the USA. Things are different there, government and law struture wise.
Re:BBC = official UK government media (Score:0, Informative)
No it isn't. I suggest you do your reseatch and find out what a Royal Charter is and how TV Licensing operates and get back to us on that.
Hope that helps. Have a nice day.
Re:UKers don't have freedom of speech (Score:1, Informative)
All hype and no play (Score:2, Informative)
I remember this on the news (afew weeks ago) and this is the only reason he's decided to have this crack smoking session.
erm i mean crack down on these sites. Its a total media stunt to better his career in the eyes of the idiots who make up a large number of people in this country.
Hynds' statement may also anger those who believe that one of the Web's great strengths is that it accommodates such a wide range of interests, free from censorship.
Damn right it does, hopefully this is the last we will hear about it - once the media attention has gone why would he bother? But really, screw you Len Hynds you have no idea what the internet is and you shouldnt have your job.
Re:UKers don't have freedom of speech (Score:1, Informative)
Good day to you.
P.S: We had the Magna Carta before the U.S was even a colony, let alone before a bunch of slave owners were scratching out a Bill of Rights.
Re:UKers don't have freedom of speech (Score:1, Informative)
1. certains limitations on the power of the government to limit freedom of expression are provided under the UK constituion. Yup, there is one. Why do you think the UK is referred to as a 'constitutional monarchy' and not an 'absolute monarchy'.
2. The EU human rights laws now form a part of British law (apart from a few exceptions concerning detention of terrorists - yes the UK is as bad as the US). They provide similar rights to the US bill of rights.
Now go and look up the difference between the 'constitution' and the 'bill of rights'.
Re:IF it's illegal... (Score:5, Informative)
By tradition, speech isn't regulated, but the Government can and does often quash news stories it finds offensive.
Re:UKers don't have freedom of speech (Score:5, Informative)
Plus, the UK is protected by EU human rights laws, which expressly protect freedom of speech.
I guess the US media was too busy shouting "USA! USA! USA!" to broadcast that particular nugget.
Supporting Hitler (Score:1, Informative)
As opposed to the Europeans who went beyond principle, and supported him in allegiance and deed in the hundreds of thousands throughout much of Europe?
Re:Umm .. There is a World outside of the US (Score:4, Informative)
UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights [un.org]
Which sounds to me like an endorsement of an internet free of censorship.
In practice, most countries violate at least one of these articles.
Frontline. "American Porn". Watch it. (Score:2, Informative)
It basically consists of interviews with people involved in the porn industry (from the front office to the business end of the camera) and talks about the environment in which they work. They spend part of their time focusing on a couple who are into making "extreme" stuff. The PBS camera crew actually walked out while these guys were making a "rape" video because they couldn't take what they were seeing, despite conceding that it was nominally consensual. The directors' only instructions to the woman were simply to "let it happen". Everyone knew what was going to happen (including being slapped around... and worse) except her!
Kind of makes you think a bit about what is and is not over the line with regard to "freedom of expression".
The full show is available online from the PBS web site.
Re:Duh (Score:5, Informative)
note also that the uk has the highest number of cctv (surveillance cameras) per capita of any country in in europe by a healthy margin.
add to that the fact that the british legal system seems to be based on the concept of writing broad, generalize laws and letting justice be sorted out by selective enforcement. there's a crime in the uk called "going equipped to commit arson" - carrying matches, basically. the theory is it will only be enforced against those who "deserve" p[ro\|er]securtion.
put 'em together and it looks like britain is dedicated less privacy, and broader criminilazation. not very happy.
Ignorant mods... (Score:0, Informative)
First they came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up,
because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up,
because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.
by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945
So next time think before modding!
Re:IF it's illegal... (Score:5, Informative)
A modest proposal (Score:1, Informative)
But it's neither a pop-up, nor a picture book.
Re:There is no "freedom of expression online" (Score:3, Informative)
Note that Freedom of Expression was only guaranteed to members of parliament, although there was a general right to petition.
Re:There is no "freedom of expression online" (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Umm .. There is a World outside of the US (Score:3, Informative)
No. In 1789, French National Assembly adopted the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen. Its 10th and 11th articles read:
10. No one shall be disquieted on account of his opinions, including his religious views, provided their manifestation does not disturb the public order established by law.
11. The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man. Every citizen may, accordingly, speak, write, and print with freedom, but shall be responsible for such abuses of this freedom as shall be defined by law.
Re:Obvious answer (Score:3, Informative)
The fact that there isn't a great deal that anyone can do to stop these sites won't inhibit the chettering classes from thinking 'something ought to be done', and generally shouting about it.
Personally, I don't care if people want to have websites with extreme material on them - but what I do care about is that these extreme sites, and the hysteria that can be caused by clever manipulators of public opinion, could lead to a repression of free expression by the back door.
However disgusting they are, if they are not disrupting the Internet in general, then anyone that cares about freedom of expression needs to affirm their right to exist, unpalatable as that might seem.
The alternative is state control and censorship of the Internet, which is the hidden agenda behind statements such as that made by the police officer.
Re:Duh (Score:2, Informative)
Stop reading if squeamish.
After a woman gives birth, and passes the placenta, in some cultures it is considered reasonable to eat the placenta.. as it is full of nutrients. But technically UK law regards the placenta as part of the human body, and the eating of it is cannibalism. A few years ago I saw a tv documentary in which a woman had her placenta made into pate, and had friends around to eat it (not all the friends could bring themselves to do it).. the programme even specifically mentioned that it was illegal.. to my knowledge no one was arrested.
So if this aspect of cannibalism can be shown on tv, I am sure it can be depicted on websites, and discussed, without it really destroying society as we know it. just goes to show that nothing is black or white, and that extreme measures to tackle the internet are usually knee-jerk reactions.. stupid ones at that.
Re:IF it's illegal... (Score:5, Informative)
And the UK government, whilst being comprised of lying sacks of shit, does not "often quash news stories it finds offensive". Please cite some examples if you disagree.
Basic Difference between British and US government (Score:1, Informative)
Completely wrong. If you read the US Constitution, you will see that it does not describe what rights people have.
What then is the US Constitution? It is a contract between states. It describes what the federal government is allowed to do. The US government is given only those powers which are explicitly listed in the constitution.
The states in turn derive their authority solely from their respective state constitutions. The states likewise are not permitted to take on any powers that are not allowed for in their constitutions. Each such constitution is a grant of authority directly from the people of the state. The states are also limited by portions of the US constitution.
In this way, the authority of government in the US is derived from the people. Government does not have any powers which have not been explicitly granted.
In contrast, the British government derives its authority from the English monarch, who derives her or his authority by hereditary succession and (allegedly) by divine right.
Re:IF it's illegal... (Score:5, Informative)
And if our dear Overlord... erm Home Secretary, has his way, then the government will have the right to suspend any law they choose, including the Human Rights Act. So it will only require an 'Act of the Home Secretary' to suspend freedom of speech.
See BBC News [bbc.co.uk] here [bbc.co.uk], here [bbc.co.uk], and here [bbc.co.uk]
I for one welcome our new Overlord, erm Home Secretary
Re:Just wondering. (Score:5, Informative)
Yelling in a crowded theater: That is not an actual law, but a Supreme Court decision. Read it, and you'll see that the Justices were extremely reluctant to apply any limits to freedom of speech. The only reason that one stands is because it can cause actual physical damage to someone (that also stands behind the "hate speech" exception).
I don't see how "gross" speech can physically harm someone. And you will agree that this can be the beginning of a slippery slope (remember the "bonsai kittens" thing. There are lots of people who will try and silence all kinds of speeck "for the children").
Re:... and in a related story... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:... and in a related story... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:... and in a related story... (Score:5, Informative)
Communion in the church is a vestigal remains of this archetypal human behavior; it is the symbolism cut loose from the act. Of course the RC church will say that the host and wine "truly are" the body and blood of Christ, but this doesn't mean they think that the communion wafer turns into meat or that the wine has plasma and red blood cells in it. Indeed they would find this idea revolting. Their position has to be understood in terms of the medieval philosophical doctrine of accidental and esstential properties, which in turn derives from platonic idealism. From a modern positivist standpoint these statements are meaningless. However from a psychological standpoint they are quite potent for the believer.
The act can also be cut loose from the symbolism: e.g. cannibalism in survival situations.
Re:Wait wait wait (Score:2, Informative)
You are correct, however, the supreme court *could* interpret the constitution differently. That has been a major bone of contention in the US..the appointment of justices to the supreme court, which affects *how* the constitution is interpreted. Also, if enough people *did* want a change in the constitution, it *can* be amended.
Eating placenta (Score:2, Informative)
The reasons for cannibalism in the past are often myriad...some believed that eating an enemy's body part would make them stronger; in some cultures it was a courtesy or honour to eat parts of a family member when they passed on.
Re:... and in a related story... (Score:5, Informative)
cotodoso
Re:Duh (Score:4, Informative)
Quoting someone as stating that their problem started with an obsession with pornography is equally fallacious--why should we trust their self diagnosis? Should we not recognize this simply as when the individual first became aware of their problem? If we take into account the subconscious, the reasoning should become immediately clear.
Re:The Law, as it is in the UK: the facts (Score:4, Informative)
OTOH we don't dump several hundred foreigners on offshore islands and deny them rights to trial (we only do it to a few of them and we let them "leave" back to their original country whenever they wish - which is magnanimous of us given some of them will probably be shot if they do that..)
Except in narrow ways the US doesn't have free speech either - "To copy this CD hold down the... " oops , DMCA can't tell you that.
When it comes to porn and violence on websites thats where they UK really does have its head up its (sorry we can't show that
Since the UK state a) believes it knows best and b) believes that extreme porn and violence sites cause real world problems to occur (which may or may not be true - I've not had occasion to read the literature), its then logical that they believe they should be banning/blocking such material just as they take it off people at customs or stop it in the post if they discover it.
Some people argue that the real test of free speech is your practical ability to say something extremely unpopular without retribution - I don't think the US or UK neccessarily score highly here.
Re:IF it's illegal... (Score:2, Informative)
1. Military operations, plans and capabilities
2. Nuclear and Non-Nuclear Weapons and Equipment
3. Ciphers and secure communications
4. Sensitive Installations and Home Addresses
5. UK Security and Intelligence services and special forces
In addition, the government tried to bury stories relating to the northern Irish spy Stakeknife after it was discovered that the UK armed forces had been targetting irish nationals for assassinations. This was around 2000-2001 and I don't have urls to hand but cryptome files many of the stories.
More recently the army stopped [guardian.co.uk] a radio 4 interview from going ahead.
Re:... and in a related story... (Score:4, Informative)
I've heard that there are obscure rules in cannon law to prevent, say, a priest getting really drunk and wandering in front of a bakery and yelling out "THIS IS MY BODY!!!!" and that being a valid transubstantiative event. (Because then you'd have to send in an army of priests to eat all the God in the bakery, you can't just throw it away or anything... :)