Ebay Suspends Phone Number Sales 349
wellingt writes "According to the
Jackson Sun, the attention brought by the sale of Jenny's famous 867-5309 has led Ebay to evaluate whether or not phone numbers are the property of their owner, and whether they can be sold. Verizon has made the claim otherwise."
"Your number" isn't yours... (Score:5, Informative)
So, there's nothing to sell on eBay. If you can't give it away even when you try, you can't sell it either.
Re:"Your number" isn't yours... (Score:5, Informative)
Portability does make for a much bigger market for transferable numbers.
Re:"Your number" isn't yours... (Score:3, Funny)
a spokeswoman for BellSouth said nothing prevents a customer from transferring a number to someone else.
"What two parties do between themselves is between them," she said. "We provide phone service."
Right on. The phone company can stay the hell away from poking their nose into what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own...
oh, nevermind
BTW, isn't Verizon the one running an ad with the Jenny song for number portability (or was it Cingular)?
*I wonder if the renewed interest in the Jenny
Not quite - read the article (Score:5, Insightful)
This is sometimes done for business partners who split up and the other person takes the number, Sybil McLain said. "What two parties do between themselves is between them," she said. "We provide phone service."
So while the original New York seller of the 212 code version might not be able to transfer it, this article is primarily about a Murfreesboro, TN car dealer, who it appears could.
Re:Not quite - read the article (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Not quite - read the article (Score:4, Insightful)
Says who? If I can legally transfer the number to someone else for free why can't I ask them to pay me to do it? Or is this like sex?
Reminds me of another paradox (Score:3, Interesting)
This reminds me of the legal 'problem' of blackmail which I read up on recently. Blackmail is generally (1) asking someone for money so that you (2) won't disclose certain information. Taken alone, both parts of the transaction are legal, but, put together, they are illegal. Apparently, this is something that legal scholars wrestle with from time to time to try and make sense of it within the greater l
Re:Reminds me of another paradox (Score:3, Insightful)
And this isn't about number portability anyway (Score:5, Insightful)
Quote from the article: "nothing prevents a customer from transferring a number to someone else." - seems pretty clear cut to me. The partnership splitting is only given as an example.
Anyway, this has nothing to do with phone number portability, which is the ability to move providers and keep the same number. Granted, the case may be that Bell South "owns" the number and might not let you transfer it to a third party, but they obviously don't mind you selling to one if that third party stays with Bell South.
The point is, it seems the policy varies depending on who is providing your phone service, and this TN guy had a right to sell the number, while the NY guy didn't, but Ebay pulled both auctions without discrimination.
Re:And this isn't about number portability anyway (Score:5, Interesting)
1) transfer yourself, with phone num, to borgizon for a fee to verizon
2) borgizon lets you sell it to me
3) I transfer back to verizon, for another fee
As far as verizon is concerned, no number was sold.
Re:And this isn't about number portability anyway (Score:5, Informative)
They have never asked why.
pencil for sale for $1300 (Score:3, Interesting)
Everyone's confused........ (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Everyone's confused........ (Score:3, Interesting)
AT&T wireless, many baby bells, and possibly many others actively advertize that instead of simply canceling your service with them, you could give it or transfer the service and the associated phone number to someone else.
Now, It's none of their business what kind of arrangement I will make with someone else to transfer the service whether it's
Re:"Your number" isn't yours... (Score:3, Insightful)
Bad Idea (Score:5, Insightful)
So officials of the auction service have to make sure the seller actually owns the item for sale and has the right to sell it."
This is not a very smart position to take. Ebay is basically saying, for example, that they are responsible if someone attempts to sell stolen property over their service.
Re:Bad Idea (Score:5, Informative)
That item can be taken from the unwitting buyer by the police and returned to the rightful owner, the person it was stolen from. If the buyer wants their money back, they have to sue the thief, which is usually a fruitless effort.
So, eBay's role is that whenever they realize that property's stolen, they've gotta kill the auction in order to maintain buyer confidence in their marketplace. They don't want transactions that aren't going to work happening over their system, simply because that'd undermine the trust people have in their system.
Re:Bad Idea (Score:2)
Re:Bad Idea (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Bad Idea (Score:5, Insightful)
That is not true any more. It used to be like that, but the law changed July 1 2003 [konsumentverket.se].
Re:Bad Idea (Score:5, Interesting)
Ironically enough an auction is the *only* place you can sell stolen property.
Auctions exist partly for that reason. That's why in order to have an auction it must be publically advertised and the goods displayed *before* the day of the sale.
If property had been auctioned in this way it was deemed to be un-stolen.
At least in the UK anyway.
what's the problem eBay? (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe eBay just realized they're losing more in bandwidth charges from being
Once The Phone Companies Figure This Out (Score:5, Insightful)
Eminent Domain (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:what's the problem eBay? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:what's the problem eBay? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:what's the problem eBay? (Score:2)
Re:what's the problem eBay? (Score:4, Interesting)
Plus it's too weak for this to last, people are going to find the loopholes. Remember when they banned selling burned CDs on ebay and so you had people bidding on a pencil with a free burned CD/bootleg video, because making profit off a pencil is legit, and (I guess in those days?) not-for-profit music distribution hadn't become the huge agenda it has been now.
So maybe we'll see something complicated where the winner has to mail there cell phone, have the seller transfer numbers, and send it back. Or for somebody interested in a new plan, just have the seller open an account using the old number (and that's what they'll be bidding on).
My examples probably have too high a risk for some sort of fraud on either end, especially the information required to open an account (but if they live in the same area, maybe they could just meet up
Speaking of, did you see the bidding for that number? I think it got up to $100,000 - $200,000.
Maybe ebay shutting bidding down is for the best, to prevent somebody from making (IMO) a foolish purchase that they'll slap themselves for tomorrow.
Re:what's the problem eBay? (Score:3, Insightful)
Not my number? (Score:5, Insightful)
Robert
Re:Not my number? (Score:5, Informative)
You can't buy 1-800-BUY-STUFF because only 1-800-BUY-STUFF Inc. owns that number, and that's not transferable. However, you can buy either the license to 1-800-BUY-STUFF's image, and as part of that deal you get to tell 1-800-BUY-STUFF Inc. where to direct that number for the duration of the license. Or, you could just buy 1-800-BUY-STUFF Inc. outright, and then merge it with your company, and then tell the phone company to move the 1-800-BUY-STUFF phone service to your headquarters instead of the old building that you're going to sell.
That's why a business can find a way to get the phone service into the hands of a spinoff company and then sell that spinoff, but it's hard for an individual to make the same moves...
Individuals can do this too. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Not my number? (Score:2)
But if I don't like my phone number, I can't just trade it with a friend. I have to contact Verizon and then pay for a different number. If I get a nice person they may offer me my choice of available numbers, but the last time I changed my number it was just the next one on their list. Either way, I have to pay Verizon to do it, I can't just buy a regular number from my friend.
NOOOOOOOOO (Score:5, Funny)
--
Tsiangkun
Dad! (Score:2, Funny)
"You wouldn't believe me if I told you," dealership owner Mike Blacksher said
Dad, STOP calling Jenny or else I HAVE to go tell Mom.
re: dad! (Score:5, Funny)
ed
Re: dad! (Score:4, Funny)
Re: dad! (Score:4, Informative)
Re: dad! (Score:3, Interesting)
heh..... (Score:4, Funny)
I actually knew of a guy in Murfreesboro, TN that had the misfortune of having this as his phone number. He got all sorts of calls from people who were just dialing the number for kicks, and wound up putting "No, Jenny's not here," on his answering machine.
When someone wins that auction... (Score:2, Funny)
Next in line for sale: (Score:2, Funny)
Obligatory Scarface quote: "You know, if anyone wanted to assassinate you Frank, you wouldn't be too hard to find."
How about selling on ebay... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:How about selling on ebay... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:How about selling on ebay... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:How about selling on ebay... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:How about selling on ebay... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:How about selling on ebay... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:How about selling on ebay... (Score:2)
Re:How about selling on ebay... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:How about selling on ebay... (Score:2)
I'll start the bidding at ten bucks, $US, payable by Paypal.
Really, I'm serious! I'd just spend it on pizza, anyway. Which reminds me, it's lunch time [cicispizza.com]...
Re:How about selling on ebay... (Score:3, Funny)
what a world, selling your slashdot id for bills (Score:3, Insightful)
Article Text (slashdotted) (Score:4, Informative)
The phone number popularized by 1982's one-hit wonder Tommy Tutone - Eight-six-seven-five-three-oh-nieeine - rings into a Murfreesboro used-car dealership in area code 615.
Tuning in to national attention for the auction of New York's 212 version of the number on eBay, the dealership put its number on the Internet auction block Monday.
However Tuesday afternoon, David Ludwig, general manger of Auto Outlet, said he got an e-mail from eBay notifying him that his "Jenny" auction had been canceled for being "inappropriate." The other phone numbers being also sold disappeared from the Web site.
The auctions were put on hold until eBay could determine whether they fell within the company's guidelines, a spokesman said Tuesday night. "People are really creative," said spokesman Henry Gomez. "And this one had us scratching our heads a bit."
Buyers and sellers on eBay enter into a binding contract, he said.
So officials of the auction service have to make sure the seller actually owns the item for sale and has the right to sell it.
He said a determination would be made about the auctions after the sellers and phone companies involved had been consulted.
The bizarre convergence of '80s pop culture and offbeat Internet auctions made ABC's Good Morning America on Friday.
Before the auction was canceled, New York's "Jenny" was going for more than $200,000.
Ludwig said he was shooting for at least $10,000. Nonetheless, he said he was happy to keep the catchy number "once we get through all these prank calls."
How many people actually still call for Jenny more than 20 years after release of the song called 867-5309/Jenny?
"You wouldn't believe me if I told you," dealership owner Mike Blacksher said.
Less than one minute after having the number connected at his dealership in January, the phone rang.
It was for Jenny.
The dealership actually has sold several cars to "Jenny" callers, he said.
Blacksher requested the number from the phone company after calling and finding out that no one had it, he said.
"We get 100 or more calls every day," he said. "People call all the way from Miami. People just keep running through area codes. They ask for Jenny or just start singing the song."
The calls fill up the company's voice mail every night.
The lawyer who owns the New York "Jenny" acquired it a few months ago after he called it and realized no one had it. He got the number from Verizon and has used it as a second line, hooking it up to an answering machine.
Verizon said its customers don't own their phone numbers, so the right to 212-867-5309 cannot be sold.
But in Nashville, a spokeswoman for BellSouth said nothing prevents a customer from transferring a number to someone else.
This is sometimes done for business partners who split up and the other person takes the number, Sybil McLain said.
"What two parties do between themselves is between them," she said. "We provide phone service."
Another Middle Tennessee "Jenny" opportunity could still be out there.
Her 931 area code number did not seem to be connected Tuesday.
Information from The Los Angeles Times-Washington Post News Service and from UPI was used this report.
What about game items? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:What about game items? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:What about game items? (Score:2)
I particularly like this auction [ebay.com], where the guy states "By viewing this auction, you verify that you are not an employee, affiliate, or of family member of Gravity Corp." Like that's legally binding.
Wrongo (Score:5, Interesting)
I asked them about it years ago, and someone from Blizzard said that there are some things they "just won't comment on."
So while they probably don't approve, they aren't all up in arms about it like Sony was over EQ.
Already slow... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Already slow... (Score:4, Insightful)
That really doesn't stand up, does it? So, what is the fundamental difference between a phone number and a static IP that makes one property and the other a resource?
Technical Reasons (Score:3, Insightful)
Verizon may be protecting customers!! (Score:4, Insightful)
Rights (Score:5, Interesting)
On the other hand, if we look at phone numbers in the same light as domain names (e.g. identifiers to get a query to a place that information can be retrieved), a whole new can of worms is opened. People say they own a domain name, but it may be more like renting than owning outright. Same as with phone numbers. If you don't pay the fee every year, it is taken away and can be re-issued to someone else.
The only thing that throws the analogy is that there are certain numbers "given" to the phone companies, if I understand correctly, whereas domains, the company has no claim to the letters.
Quickly solve this problem (Score:5, Funny)
Start suing.
No basis for a lawsuit? Why let that stop you?
The cynical POV... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The cynical POV... (Score:5, Interesting)
Also to note, most "golden" numbers are in the toll free, pay service, or choke switch ranges where the golden number service is included in the main definition of the service. However, toll free and pay services are costly phone services to operate, and very
The right to transfer your golden number? Nope. What you have to do is transfer the legal entity that owns the golden number... usually that means creating a spinoff company that inherits the phone service as one of its "obligations", and then sell that company. Thing is, businesses can create spinoff companies... people can't create a spinoff of themselves, kids don't count.
Telco Maints The Right... (Score:3, Informative)
I suppose this is no longer the case with the American's number portability, but this probably use to be the case and is where eBay is getting it's worries from.
WTF? (Score:2)
I know that in the UK, there is a thriving market in trading/selling of number plates (aka liscence plates). See here for a search [1stcarnumbers.co.uk]. Why is this kind of thing shunned here?
If numbers don't belong to the paying owners, who? (Score:5, Interesting)
A related question for your hard-core telcomm people, since portability presumes any number can go anywhere, how do carriers assign new numbers to new devices? What pool do they come from? And what happens when service is terminated -- where do those numbers go?
My *guess* is that NANPA assigns NXX blocks (prefix/exchanges) to carriers, who then assign them to end nodes. Portability simply means that when someone wants to move to another carrier, the ported number gets put into an exception database someplace that is shared among carriers. Numbers not in the exception database are routed to whoever was assigned the NXX block originally. When service ends for a number, an exception database entry is removed if it exists, and the number "returns" to the NXX block assignee it originated from.
All of that is moot, though, if number portability means ALL numbers are in an exception database and number assignments simply happen in a queue from this master number database, and NANPA no longer assigns NXX blocks to carriers this way.
If this is true, then it seems fair game for me to re-assign my number to anyone else since only NANPA would have any claim on it. If the other assertion is true (NXX assignments to carriers, with an exception database and return-to-assignment on release), then Verizon or other carriers may have a legit beef, especially if they have to buy NXX blocks from NANPA or pay fees for them.
Re:If numbers don't belong to the paying owners, w (Score:3, Informative)
How does Verizon know not to reissue that number?
If the guy flat cancels his Qworst service, do they notify Verizon that the number is now available for reissue?
That's what the number portablity database is all about. First off, the guy does not directly call Verizon to cancel... if he does, he loses his number so he'd better not do that. Instead, Qwest sends the Verizon the
Somewhere... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Somewhere... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Somewhere... (Score:3, Informative)
From this page, [aol.com] or here. [msn.com]
Surprise? (Score:5, Insightful)
Transfering numbers is possible (Score:5, Insightful)
If there isn't a friendly phone company out there (which is hard to believe since there'd almost certainly be a little money in it from them, especially if they were able to make all the transfers happen in a small number of days), it's possible for someone to set up a company for the sole purpose of doing this.
Given enough flexibility, networks WILL route around damage. Fortunately the FCC has just given us the flexibility we need.
its as simple as a COFR (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree with previous posts, it has nothing to do with reality, the wireless providers are just looking for yet another way to stick it to their customers.
Tautology (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't something, by definition, the property of its owner? I guess the question is "Who is the owner -- the subscriber, or the provider?"
Would you really wanna? (Score:3, Funny)
I don't think you'd get it. (Score:3, Informative)
Hopefully you're either being facetious (in wanting that number) or you're telling the literal truth (about how bad technical support is) but in any case, I believe some company already has 1-800-EAT-SHIT. It redirects people by telling them that the "correct" number is 1-900-EAT-SHIT, which is, of course, a premium number.
Paul Robinson <Postmaster@paul.washington.dc.us [mailto]>
fun with vanity numbers (Score:5, Funny)
Re:fun with vanity numbers (Score:4, Funny)
I know that she moved a few times but always tried to keep the number, just for the hell of it.
A telemarketer should buy it (Score:5, Funny)
sticking with the whole numbers in song thing (Score:5, Interesting)
i found the whole endevor quite humorous
Area codes, RIP? (Score:5, Interesting)
This is no different (Score:3, Interesting)
TECHNICALLY in the TOS it explicitly states that the users DO NOT OWN THE DIGITAL CONTENT. And that they just are given the rigts to use it.
I think eBay just got all butt hurt because of all the publicity the auction was getting. I'm sure if my Entire Playset of 8th Edition Wrath of Gods for MTGO on eBay was on the 8 o'clock news, Wizards of the Coast would be stepping in as well.
Just my $0.02
800 numbers have been resellable since 1993 (Score:5, Informative)
who are these chumps??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Verizon's Claim is specious and incorrect (Score:5, Insightful)
While, in theory, the telephone company (claims it) can change your number if there is a service problem or - again in theory - for any reason it wants to, with the ability of the customer to move the number to a different Local Exchange Company (LEC-Incumbent ILEC or Competitive CLEC) or even move numbers between wireless and wireline companies, Verizon's claim that the customer does not 'own' the phone number is specious at a minimum and in any case clearly incorrect.
We as customers are paying a few cents every month for local number portability. If the customer can move their number without consent of the carrier - which is the case - then the carrier's claim that the customer does not own the number is clearly incorrect.
When competitive local (wired) phone service came into Maryland about 5 years ago I moved from (what was then) Bell Atlantic to Starpower faster than you can say 'Long distance is the next best thing to being there.' All (what is now) Verizon could do was send me a final bill and wish me a goodbye.
Since the carrier no longer has any means to refuse to let you change carriers - even if you still owe them money - then obviously the carrier no longer owns the phone number, the subscriber does.
When I moved to Virginia, I signed up with Starpower directly and have had service with them for three years. (Yes, I know the actual service comes from Verizon but it's at least a partial victory.)
The point remains, if I can take my (wireline) number from Verizon to someone else - or have a number issued from a different carrier and move it elsewhere - then obviously I own that number. This was the standard for 800/888 etc. numbers for years now, has been the standard for wired customer numbers and is now established for cellular numbers too.
It will probably take a tedious suit against some telephone company to establish de jure what is already de facto: that the customer now owns the phone number, not the carrier.
----Paul Robinson <Postmaster@paul.washington.dc.us>
My family had offers for thier number (Score:3, Interesting)
It can be done.
-Nick
Phone numbers are sold all the time (Score:5, Interesting)
Verizon seems to be saying corporations have the right to buy and sell phone numbers but regular folks don't. It figures, it's just more of the same crap we get all the time.
Surprised no one remembered Cingular used this #!! (Score:3, Insightful)
transfer the number to a new provider (Score:3, Insightful)
Ebay is merely contoversy-averse (Score:5, Informative)
Ask anyone burned by their "VeRO" program where eBay will remove any auction requested by a VeRO, even if the item auctioned is clearly legal to be sold (e.g. a CD given away with the sale a pair of jeans at the GAP)
it's called assumption of service (Score:5, Informative)
we contact the phone company, request for an assumption of service in which the company now take on the financial responsibilities of the service contract. this usually take a tax id number, but between individuals you would use a social security number. once the billing is switched over in the company name, we port the number into our corporate plan.
if the employee leaves and wants to retain their phone number, the process is simply reversed. the process is easy, what's difficult is that each provider wants to lock you into their service plan. in the case of assuming an individual number into a group plan, since the group plan already exists, we're not bothered to sign any contracts. on the other hand, if the individual wants to break their number from our plan, they need to commit to a some type of time commitment( 1 or 2 year plan) before they can assume responsibility and service.
Another bad number... (Score:4, Funny)
screw ebay: just sell to whoever calls (Score:5, Insightful)
jeez people, it's not really that hard... and although you can't technically "sell" a phone number, you can get paid to transfer it to someone else, just like any other intangible object i.e. software, music, domains, names of businesses, license plate names, etc.
But if I "owned" the number 1-800-GET-LAID, does that mean I couldn't get paid to transfer it to someone? This might to lead to the idea that phone numbers have no value, which obviously is very wrong, because if someone somehow redirected a business phone number that could be very serious.
Verizon does not have a leg to stand on. (Score:5, Insightful)
2)People are legally allowed to require money be transfered as a condition of said transfer. Verizon admits that also - they do it all the time.
So Verizon is insisting they do not use the word "sale"/"sold".
Unless you change Point 1 or Point 2, Verizon's belief makes no sense.
I can't sell something I don't own, but I sure can accept a fee to vacate an apartment earlier than my lease. Even though I don't own the apartment, I have rights with respect to that apartment and those rights can be sold. Similarly I now have rights to my phone number, and unless a law states otherwise, Verizon is going to have to admit that I can therefore sell my rights to my phone number.
Damn you, Tommy Tutone! (Score:5, Funny)
Yep (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Domains Vs. Numbers (Score:2)