FTC Dismisses Complaint Against Rambus 175
swordboy writes "A federal judge just threw out the FTC lawsuit against Rambus. This has been discussed at length here before but this changes the landscape yet again. An interesting, possibly coincidental item is that Intel just today announced a new and very powerful DRAM interface that bypasses Rambus IP altogether."
Woo (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean, DDR-II has a significant price-premium over current DDR, but if it doesn't....
Woo. It might be worth going Intel for once
Re:Woo (Score:1)
I mean, DDR-II has a significant price-premium over current DDR
DDR 2nd Mix [ddrei.com]? That's still way old.
Re:Woo (Score:1)
Still, kudos for posting the joke. I was thinking it, but didn't want to say anything
Re:Woo (Score:2)
Re:Woo (Score:1)
Mycroft
Re:Woo (Score:1)
God knows why... I thought half the point of DDR2 was lower cost per die, making it cheaper than regular DDR, since you halve the clock speed to get the same memory bandwidth (although there are some additional latencies which usually means DDR2 needs to be clocked at about 60% of DDR to acheive the same bandwidth).
Brief description here: http://hardware.earthweb.com/chips/article.php/32 9 5571
Time is of the essence (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, most court disputes between hi-tech companies finish long after the technologies in question are dead. Just look at Lineo/Canopy : when they won the DRDOS settlement against Microsoft, Windows 95 and DOS were already just a painful reminder of the past.
So yes, perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Intel can do without the Rambus IP. However, I doubt it's the real reason, because even when the disputed technologies are obsolete when the court reaches its verdict (or the parties settle), the money from damages or settlement is very real.
Re:Time is of the essence (Score:1)
At least they got (if rumors are to be believed) an enormous cash award.
Re:Time is of the essence (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Time is of the essence (Score:3, Funny)
I think that could be more accurately phrased: The law realm tries its damndest to cost, which happens to be exacting.
Re:Time is of the essence (Score:1)
http://www.rambus.com/products/xdr/
This is an important decision (Score:1, Insightful)
Hard drives fail and are slow as hell. They are the bottlenecks in 99% of today's systems. That will change soon, thanks in part to Intel and AMD.
Re:This is an important decision (Score:3, Funny)
Tally-ho then, time to get Duracell stocks I guess.
Re:This is an important decision (Score:2)
Or just fire up the matrix
Re:RAM memory for all system storage (Score:1)
Re:This is an important decision (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is an important decision (Score:1)
when the power goes out and you have no where to store your static data like the OS, you will have to reload it?
and daily backups will be a mandatory issue for even casual home users?
yeah, your a crack head.
hard drives fail a lot less than the power goes out, by a factor of millions I would day.
Re:This is an important decision (Score:2)
Clear the main ram-disk at power-down, read in all the data from the backup drive/array at power-up, and only use the backup when relevant changes to the conte
Re:This is an important decision (Score:1)
I just did some quick calculations based on the cost of the components in my new system. My system RAM turns out to cost about $0.16 per MB, while my HD storage, the drive AND the controller together, costs about $0.014 per MB. This is at least a 10x difference in cost, and I'm comparing normal middle-of-the-road RAM to one of
Re:This is an important decision (Score:3, Informative)
What about if you want to move your data to another box? Even if you think if Flash or whatever, these are slow and die much faster than a HD.
I have no idea how the parent is "Insightful". Moderation hint for parent: Funny + 5
Re:This is an important decision (Score:4, Interesting)
2) Even if it were (and didn't already exist) MRAM (Magnetic RAM) is non-volatile.
Still, I have to admit that hard drives have been "scheduled" to be replaced or obsoleted 3 or 4 times now, and every time, they have survived. They are just cheap and versatile and "fast enough", and for applications that want a high sustained transfer rate (STR), they are really quite fast. Fujitsu's latest [storagereview.com] SCSI drive can handle nearly 80MB/sec sustained for more than half of its capacity. Yo would need a hell of an expensive FLASH controller to outpace that, and FLASH technology is still hampered by a "limited number" of write operations before it dies.
Re:This is an important decision (Score:2)
Re:This is an important decision (Score:1, Informative)
Yeah, but addressibility comes into play. Today's most powerful consumer computers can only address 8GB of memory(Apple G5's, whether or not they are the most "powerful" isn't the point, but they are one of the few consumer level 64 bit machines out there), in order for this to come to fruition, assuming
Re:This is an important decision (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh, and as far as bottlenecks go, when my internet pipe can bog down my harddrive, then I'll be concerned.
"reading" is slow too (Score:2)
Dunno if it's occurred to you, but you can "read" data off a hard drive too, not just "download" to it. And better still, it doesn't have to involve your slow old net connection!
I've noticed that, when "reading" from my hard drive (for such things as loading my warez appz, copying/moving my pr0n, searching the IE cache to read my sister's hotmail etc), I still have to wait for it to finish sometime
Re:This is an important decision (Score:5, Informative)
Hard drives will still be around for bulk storage. Dollars-per-bit counts, too.
Re:This is an important decision (Score:3, Insightful)
Not a chance in hell. The only acceptable solid-state data storage medium is non-volatile memory i.e. "flash" memory. No one anywhere will risk all their data to any storage medium that a dead battery would wipe out. Flash storage is waaaay too slow for primary storage. Even a modern IDE hard disk
Re:This is an important decision (Score:1)
Take it a step further. Why should you waste your electricity and ram on just "storing"? Store it on your isps shell account which contains a 5gig ram drive for you. Of course the shell is free with your 20 dollar a month fiber drop
Take it another step. Why would the isp want to store multiple cop
Quality... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Quality... (Score:2, Troll)
Not much of a joke to me. One of the servers at work recently trashed its boot disk. Running Memtest86 shows memory errors throughout its 4GB of RAMBUS memory.
Re:Quality... (Score:2)
Re:Quality... (Score:4, Funny)
Yeah, right. Whatever you say pal. Everyone knows that overclocked CAS2 DDR400 is the most stable kind of me
[NO CARRIER]
Cheap (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Cheap (Score:5, Interesting)
Memory is like disk space. The general population demands quantity over speed or quality. Rambus was a technology that never really trickled down to the average desktop.
are you implying RAMBUS was high quality? (Score:4, Informative)
Rambus was never a great idea. It was very difficult to design a mobo with it. It is rumored that no company ever designed one without the help of Rambus the company.
To be honest, the only reason Rambus went anywhere is because Intel signed an agreement to force bundle it with P4. And this act itself launched Athlon and AMD, because Rambus was unaffordable and didn't provide levels of performance that were unreachable with regular RAM.
If Intel had applied the same level of effort to their SDRAM or DDR motherboards, they would have produced higher performance than Rambus at lower cost. But Intel didn't, they had signed an agreement not to. And they threatened to sue VIA if they brought a (presumably high performance) SDRAM chipset to market for the P4. Only once Intel shipped their own SDRAM-based P4 chipset (the 8200?) did Intel drop this threat against VIA.
RDRAM was mostly marketing. It's performance was never really all it was cracked up to be.
Re:Cheap (Score:2)
Rambus is a proof of what SCO can do (Score:4, Insightful)
That's why making fun of SCO doesn't make me laugh much, because there is a possibility that they can get what they want in the courts.
Re:Rambus is a proof of what SCO can do (Score:1)
In the end however, this particular case is most likely going to be a non-event. DDR RAM is the common RAM of the moment, and Intel just announced a newer, claimed to be much faster, memory model that completely bypasses all Rambus patents. So, Rambus may be awarded its patent... to effectively nothing.
As for the SCO case, I don't think so. SCO is claiming sets of 2-4 lines of code in more than 700 lines of code in Linux are "infringing" copyright! Are those infringing bits of code if-else clauses with "
RAMBUS is so dead (Score:5, Informative)
Not just regurgitating history, though - I wonder if Intel will learn a lesson from RAMBUS's demise in regard to the new fangled transmission scheme*. RAMBUS died because it was 1) not open and 2) charged royalties. DRAM is such a low margin product that royalties will kill any possibility of your product hitting mass market (in RAMBUS's case, even with intel's backing - because none of memory manufactures liked it, so despite playing along they were really thinking of JEDEC and how to get DDR to be more popular / competitive). Intel, though, is probably doing this in a choke move for AMD, so it puts Intel at a tough decision point again: open standard = AMD can use it too, or RAMBUS version 2. That said, Intel isn't stupid, I am guessing their upcoming processors will be designed around a high memory bandwidth architecture to take advantage of it better than what competitors can. The low turnaround time (i.e. no bus turnaround!) is so sexy in a geeky way. circuit board designers are going to get soooo much headache over this though...
* the concept is indeed pretty cool, though you'll need some tough lil drivers that can handle incoming voltage swings while it's driving. The power dissipation on these I/O buffers are key, but in reality these things already exist, of course - just a bit pricy.
Re:RAMBUS is so dead (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you mean RDRAM is dead. RAMBUS, the company, is still very much alive thanks to this ruling, which allows them to extort royalties for SDRAM.
Re:RAMBUS is so dead (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:RAMBUS is so dead (Score:1)
Re:RAMBUS is so dead (Score:4, Informative)
Re:RAMBUS is so dead (Score:2, Insightful)
Wasn't Intel part and parcel of the rambus problem? IIRC they owned a major stake of the company which was deeded to them so they would SUPPORT Rambus technologies so Rambus could extort people? Wasn't it only after consumers collectively said "Fuck that shit" that Intel stopped producing Rambus motherboards?
Re:RAMBUS is so dead (Score:1, Insightful)
The RDRAM modules were sky high expensive and the Intel mobos weren't cheap either. Until the cheaper DDR modules came along there simply wasn't an affordable fast memory design on the market.
Re:RAMBUS is so dead (Score:2, Interesting)
That's right, it was a collaboration of RAMBUS(T) and INTEL to monopolize the memory market. Too bad, so sad, they lost. Anybody remember IBM and their MCA plans?
Nothing special in the drivers. (Score:5, Interesting)
No you don't. You already need to drive a line that's got a charge on it from the stuff you previously drove onto it. This doesn't change that. The local end just sees the far end as being terminated by a resistor to a voltage that is either low or high, rather than being terminated by a resistor to a constant voltage.
Driving both ways simultaneously, though, is very cute.
The downside is the need to daisy-chain. That means you're driving multiple lines at 3.6 Gbps on EVERY chip, ALL THE TIME. That's a LOT of power. Even if you interrupt the daisy chain at the selected chip (and arrange things so that the quiescent states of the transmitters at both ends of an idle line match) it's still a lot of power unless you localize most of your memory access to the closest chip.
Re:Nothing special in the drivers. (Score:2)
Re:Nothing special in the drivers. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Nothing special in the drivers. (Score:2)
Re:Nothing special in the drivers. (Score:3, Interesting)
this thing would be more painful to work on chip to chip communications since you don't know if the other chip is Z or the logic state you are receiving simply corresponded with your current driving logic state. (I suppose one can al
No Zs here. (Score:4, Informative)
You have two misconceptions about the scheme in question:
1) There is no "Z" state. Both sides are ALWAYS driving.
2) You don't have to stop driving the line to receive what the other side is driving toward you.
This is essentially the same hack that lets a telephone send energy at the same band of frequencies in both directions simultaneously, on a single pair of wires:
- You terminate the line at, or near, its characteristic impedence, and so does the device at the far end.
- You inject a current into the line/terminator junction (or, equivalently, shift the voltage at the "cold" end of the terminating resistor) to send.
- You compare the voltage on the pin (or current through the pin, or current through the terminating resistor) to what you expected to see if the far end was at a no-current-injected (or terminator "cold" end at ground) state. The difference is the signal being injected at the far end.
The wire is being driven at both ends at all times (no Zs). You can always tell what the far end is sending, regardless of what you're sending.
If you chose to send by injecting a voltage at the "cold" end of the terminator, you dissipate no power when both ends are sending the same value. You dissipate a significant amount when both ends are sending opposite signals. But you also dissipate the same amount if the transmitting ends of two separate wires are switched - for the time it takes the signal to propagate and the reflection to come back. If the separation between the transmitter and receiver is more than half the length of a bit time, the quiescent state has both sides driving the same value, and the two ends drive opposite about as often as same, it's a wash.
RamBus (Score:2, Funny)
Re: RamBus (Score:2)
Business plan (Score:4, Funny)
2.Sue other companies before its barely in use and make sure nobody uses said technology
3.Get tied up in legal battles until patent is useless
4.???
5.Profit!
RAMBUS is now another SCO (Score:4, Interesting)
The reason for this is the RDRAM design. It takes more space on a wafer to produce, and that is why it costs more ( commission to to RAMBUS is another part, but the size difference is the key cost difference ). So memory prices would have been much higher, and Intel would have been able to squeeze AMD more due to the patented bus that RDRAM uses.
If you go back in time, it was exactly as Intel was about to force RDRAM down everyones throats, that AMD released the Athlon. Suddenly there was an alternative to Intel in performance, and by not using RDRAM, the price difference was extreme. This is the point that AMD surged ahead in market share, and while the inroads they made were overall not significant, they were enough to show that not everyone would be pushed around.
RAMBUS did come up with some interesting design innovations, but as soon as the writing on the wall was that RDRAM was dead due to lower prices with DDR, they turned into SCO by suing everyone that was making DDR, by use of info they had taken from JEDEC and adding it after the fact to pending patents from RDRAM. Another stellar example of USPTO excellence. RAMBUS is dead, but someone wants to make money from the rotting corpse. Just compare how similar the lawyers fees are for RAMBUS and SCO.
Not quite ... (Score:2)
Re:RAMBUS is now another SCO (Score:2)
Re:RAMBUS is now another SCO (Score:1)
Well, to clarify a little bit...
The other factor in DDR being much cheaper than RDRAM is that DDR (which is DDR SDRAM) is just an incremental change to the basic SDRAM design--a few extra circuits added, and you're done. RDRAM is a totally different kind of design. You have to basically redesign the
Shouldn't the subject read... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Shouldn't the subject read... (Score:1)
They'll just amend a current application (Score:1, Funny)
So? I'm sure Rambus has a patent application in the pipeline that they'll just amend to include Intel's latest technology.
Precendence? (Score:3, Interesting)
The only thing necessary for Micro$oft to triumph is for a few good programmers to do nothing". North County Computers [nccomp.com]
Legal history impact (Score:2)
I trust they won't be part of the JEDEC and its meetings now.
Incidentally, Rambus is one of the few tech companies where when you type in the company name in a search engine you get the company website
Re:Legal history impact (Score:3, Informative)
Not the end (Score:4, Insightful)
"Today's ruling came after a three-month evidentiary hearing and is subject to potential further review by the full Commission and review by a United States Court of Appeal."
and
"The Judge's initial decision is subject to review by the full Commission, either on its own motion or at the request of either party."
Basically one judge threw out the preliminary suit brought by a small commitee of the FTC. The case will now almost certainly go before the full FTC and, unlike an appeals process, this will involve a complete reexamination of the body of evidence. Essentially there will be a second, independent judgement by the FTC again on this matter, with potentially (and hopefully) differing results.
Wrong... (Score:1)
But then again, IANAL.
Buh?? (Score:2)
Was this FTC suit based on their violation of the JEDEC non-compete over SDRAM? Did that document just not hold up in court? Why?
I thought that was long gone...or is this a completely different issue?
Open Standards (Score:3, Informative)
* Create an "essential" technology that is implemented in several large manufacturer's products.
* License the technology to everyone for big $
Most often what happens is that for a year or two, the "essential technology" may actually be very successful. Sometimes it even sticks around for the long haul, but the price becomes a lot lower. Then someone else comes out with "The Next Big Thing" or an open standard with simmilar functionality comes into existence. Some examples that are easy to remember:
* IBM's Microchannel Archetecture (was very cool for about two years, displaced by eisa, bus mastering ISA, then PCI)
* Adobe Postscript, Type 1 Fonts
* Zip drives
Rambus isn't essential any more... but they'll be aroud as much as I don't like them.
More diskless clients in clusters (Score:1)
Thank you! (Score:3, Funny)
Dear Sir,
Thank you for mirroring our content, as we are a global search engine with thousands of webservers across the world and could not possibly handle the load from Slashdot. Whew, you saved us! We owe ya a cold one next time you're in CA.
The Yahoo Sysadmin Team
Re:Thank you! (Score:2)
Re:Anon, no karma (Score:2, Interesting)
James
Re:Both news items are exciting (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't possibly imagine how you could have followed this case and come to that conclusion unless you've had blinders on and are deep into Rambus stock. Rambus deserves the title "Litigous Bastards" almost as much as SCO.
-dameron
Re:Both news items are exciting (Score:5, Informative)
The reason other members of the hardware community are so upset, and the reason that Rambus has been the target of so many lawsuits, is that they were on the design commitee which decided upon the spec. for DDR in the first place, and they presented their technology to the standards working group conveniently without mentioning the fact that they owned patents on the implementation.
That's why they deserve the title of 'litigious bastards'-- because that's pretty 'bastardly' behavior.
Re:Both news items are exciting (Score:1)
You are getting the most important part of this incorrect(in bold). They did not own any patents on the technologies at the t
Re:Both news items are exciting (Score:5, Insightful)
That said I think it is unsuprizing that Intel and the manufacturers would look somewhere else for the next generation of RAM technologies. They'd be foolish to deal with a companay that had tricked them before.
Re:Both news items are exciting (Score:5, Informative)
Nice, if it were true. The reason the JEDEC members were sueing was that Rambus was writing down the other companies ideas that were brought up at the JEDEC meetings and having their patent lawyers apply for patents on those ideas the next day. The other companies were not patenting those proposals that they were putting forth at JEDEC while establishing the SDRAM standards, due to a agreement between all members that the SDRAM standard would contain no patent-encumbered technology. When other JEDEC members caught wind of this and complained, RAMBUS left JEDEC, but their patent applications on SDRAM technology continued to change to cover new aspects of the SDRAM spec after each JEDEC meeting! They had a spy (codename: Secret Squirrel) in the meetings who was forwarding the tech to them while the spec was still being determined, and when the spec was published, most of the SDRAM spec was subject to Rambus patents on tech developed by the other members.
Rambus ripped off the JEDEC members and the courts are saying that this is OK. WTF? All is fair in love, war, and business (I guess).
Conspiracy, conspiracy (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Conspiracy, conspiracy (Score:5, Informative)
The point is that you may ammend a patent application after it has been applied for and before the decision has been made. They originally filed applications on a rather generic implementation and adjusted it to fit the spec while JEDEC was still in the process of writing it.
At least that's what the other members of JEDEC alleged, and RAMBUS, rather than deny it outright, admitted that it was receiving emails (from someone calling themselves "Secret Squirrel") advising them on how to ammend their technology (and their patent applications), but that they did not know who they were from, and did not know that the information was the same as was being discussed at JEDEC.
OT to AC... (Score:1)
It's funny how people behave when the facts do not support their chosen ideology.
Re:Conspiracy, conspiracy (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Conspiracy, conspiracy (Score:4, Insightful)
What? Everyone who's invited to participate in JEDEC is there so their technology can be "taken". Taken, that is, and put into an industry wide standard for all to use! If you're suggesting that RAMBUS reps at JEDEC didn't know that they were developing a standard at the meetings and were "tricked" into letting their as-yet-unapproved patent for memory into the standard, then you're an idiot.
Re:Conspiracy, conspiracy (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm saying that a number of the JEDEC members had prior non-disclosure agreements with Rambus regarding technology
Re:Conspiracy, conspiracy (Score:1)
Does anyone have any links to articles describing this alternative scenario where RAMBUS is the victim?
I still am skeptical. This whole business of the inside spy, and RAMBUS never complaining or threatening to sue if JEDEC used IP that looked a lot like their
Re:Conspiracy, conspiracy (Score:3, Interesting)
Can you provide perhaps a link to a reputable source for this? I've never heard that version of events and it doesn't jibe with the facts as I've seen them so far. How about a patent number for
Re:Both news items are exciting (Score:1)
Re:Both news items are exciting (Score:1, Interesting)
Case law for this is American Society of Sanitary Engineering before the FTC.
"the American Society of Sanitary Engineering ("ASSE") had refused to permit inclusion of patented technology in a standard for ballcocks, even though the patented technology in question protected against backflow at least as well as the ballcock va