TVI to Sue Over MS Autoplay Feature 408
scubacuda links to this Infoworld article, which reads in part "TVI charges Microsoft's autoplay feature infringes on four of its U.S. patents. TV Interactive Data Corp. (TVI) of Los Gatos, California, claims that Microsoft infringes on four of its U.S. patents, three entitled 'host device equipped with means for starting a process in response to detecting insertion of a storage media' and one entitled 'method for starting up a process automatically on insertion of a storage media into a host device.", writing "I hope no one has a patent on the shift key, because that's what I hit when I insert a CD. (That is, when I haven't already edited the registry)" Wouldn't automount / autofs fall under the same shadow?
Why stop with M$? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Why stop with M$? (Score:5, Interesting)
Really, really prior art (Score:5, Informative)
A local Fight'o'net BBS operator I know, back in the same era, had a process auto-start when you inserted a tape cartridge (snail-mailed from the 'states) full of downloadables in your '286.
So they're just being SCOlets, pump-n-dump barratrous assholes. It seems to be trendy these days.
Re:Really, really prior art (Score:3, Informative)
I seem to remember that in the early days of MessyDOS, small TSR programs could be loaded which would do that when a floppy was inserted. Don't know the exact year they would have been first used, but it was pre-286 IIRC.
What about other computers? The microprocessor dates from about 1972, realistically about 1975 before they were much used, but computers with removable storage date from (very approximately) 1950. Maybe some of the early ones started a process on inserting a pun
Re:Why stop with M$? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why stop with M$? (Score:5, Informative)
I really hope lawsuits like this don't get upheld... but sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't.
Auto-insert notification is such a simple thing, it's been in computers forever (and in microsoft land since '95) and just now the lawsuit?
The worst part is that these patents keep being passed, over and over.. we need some technical people in the patent offices, not temps making $7 an hour.
Whatever. It's just another case of "let people use it until it becomes vital and you can make a bundle of money, then sue."
Re:Why stop with M$? (Score:5, Insightful)
While it's a common practice for these patent vultures to prey on the small, cash poor "infringers", counting on a quick settlement, I don't understand why they'd tackle microsoft. MSFT has the legal guns to back this thing all the way to invalidation of the patent, if they want. I guess they might just figure it's cheaper to fork over a pay-off, but I wouldn't and I doubt Mssr. Gates will, either.
Re:Why stop with M$? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Why stop with M$? (Score:5, Interesting)
Besides, Linux and the Open Source Community has Free Software Foundation. Plus, I'm sure Redhat, Novel, and IBM has vested interest in seeing Linux grow and won't site idle while shitty companies (ala SCO) tries to extort money from the open source community and its user base.
Re:Why stop with M$? (Score:5, Interesting)
Then neither would Palm PDAs, VCRs that start playing as soon as a tape is inserted, and DVD players that autoplay the DVD when inserted.
They tackle MS because MS would just fork out the dough to settle rather than litigate to the bitter end. Just because TVI attempts to tackle MS doesn't necessarily mean TVI will go after Palm, Sony, Toshiba, etc...they probably just assume that MS will settle the quickest--maximum return (settlement) on investment (litigation costs).
It's extortion, IMHO. If they were serious about defending their patent against all sorts of prior art, then they would have issued multiple lawsuits MANY YEARS AGO when autoplay was first introduced.
From the article:
Microsoft is the defendant in more than 30 patent cases, but only three are listed in Friday's filing. The others are the high-profile case brought by Eolas Technologies Inc. and the University of California over Internet Explorer and a case brought by InterTrust Technologies Corp. over DRM (Digital Rights Management) and other technologies.
Ever really wonder how much of this litigation is based on good-faith belief of true infringement, and how much is picking on the "rich kid of the block?" "Hey, MS has really deep pockets, maybe of we bug them enough they'll give us money to go away."
Sometimes I think this is a non-trivial percentage of the suits brought on MS. Not to say that MS hasn't infringed (they may very well have do so, voluntarily or otherwise) but they are a corn-fed, juicy target for carnivorous teams of attorneys looking for a quick settlement.
Thinking like Microsoft (Score:4, Informative)
If microsoft wouldn't pay licensing fees for a patent which was clearly legitimate, why would they pay out for one as dubious as this one?
Re:Thinking like Microsoft (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Thinking like Microsoft (Score:4, Funny)
So what exactly does a violated patent smell like?
Re:Why stop with M$? (Score:5, Funny)
Minor correction (and rant) (Score:4, Insightful)
No, we need to ban software patents. Software patents have done absolutely nothing for innovation. Everyone getting sued is not someone who saw the idea and said "Hey! Great idea! I think I'll integrate that with my product." They've all been developers who come up with the idea independently, and then years (and years) later the company who was successful in marketing the product gets sued. All it has done is increase the amount of patent barratry.
And software is already protected by an insane amount of IP laws anyway. Not only is it protected for 90 years by copyright (if owned by a corp.) but trade secret law, and still for some unfathomable reason, you can patent it as well.
Oh well. Sucks to be us, I guess.
Re:Why stop with M$? (Score:5, Funny)
Didn't SCSI have the cd-inserted data signal long ago? What was SCSI doing with it? or does MAC use SCSI?
Re:Why stop with M$? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Why stop with M$? (Score:4, Funny)
Yes, it did. That rhythmic clicking as it probed for a disk haunts me to this day.
On the A500 it wasn't too bad but on the big boxy 2000 it was like someone kicking off a bass drum every few seconds.
Re:Why stop with M$? (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, it fails the obviousness test, but since the USPO has aparently interpereted this test to be `obvious to somoene who doesn't know what a computer is and has no problem solving ability at all'...
Re:Why stop with M$? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Why stop with M$? (Score:3, Insightful)
Clearly they are applying lower test than that in IT, presumably due to lack of staff with clues about this area.
Eg, the Amazon one-click patent was awarded for what anyone who knew the technology involved would have suggested as the first idea which came to mind: the IT equivalent of giving a patent for `using screws to attach things to the wall'.
In the c
Automount / Autofs (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Automount / Autofs (Score:5, Funny)
Or maybe they should sue SCO, who, after all, owns Unix and Linux...
Re:Why stop with M$? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Why stop with M$? (Score:5, Interesting)
But there was a tricky cleaver way to get code to execute upon mere insertion of a floppy disk! (Yes, I mean even back in the old days, like 1984.)
Write a new WDEF. (A window defProc.) Put it into the resource of the Desktop file on the floppy disk. Make it have the same wdef ID as the standard system wdef, that is zero. Write your WDEF so that the window borders, title bar, frame, etc. that it draws looks pixel-perfect clone of the standard wdef.
Now insert the floppy disk. The Finder puts the floppy disks Desktop file on the resource chain ahead of the System file. When it tries to access wdef 0 to display a new window on the screen, it finds and executes your wdef code. Yours displays window borders and controls like normal, but can optionally have a payload that executes as well.
Of course, when you ejected your floppy disks, you needed to leave the window open so that when the next user inserts the floppy, it opens the same window in the same position on the screen. The act of drawing the window is what triggers your wdef, simply by virtue of it being on the resource chain.
It has been a long, looooong time. But I believe that this mechanism was the basis of the very first Macintosh virus, the WDEF virus.
Anyway, a nice way to "AutoPlay" code of your choice. Before Apple closed the loophole.
Back in my DOS days (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Back in my DOS days (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Back in my DOS days -- 19 trinkets (Score:4, Funny)
However, in compensation for your cooperation, you will be allowed to keep 19 trinkets.
Prior Art (Score:4, Interesting)
Take that!
Re:Prior Art (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Prior Art (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Prior Art (Score:3, Insightful)
The computer has to actively seek the drive and look for an appropriate filesystem to boot from.
In order for a boot disk to "violate" this patent, the computer would have to turn on and automatically boot from that floppy upon insertion, or something of that sort.
I'm not trying to say it's not yet another stupid patent, but just that I'm not sure your example would apply.
Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
I have had for a very, very long time a VCR that automatically turned on and played the tape when you pushed one into its slot.
Sounds like the "host" is activating a process to me.
Hopefully this won't hold up in court (Score:5, Insightful)
No kidding (Score:2)
Hell, your average CD player does this... it starts a play process when a disc is inserted. Ditto for various media player all the way back to 8-track-tapes and earlier.
And that's besides the fact. Autoplay isn't really about detecting media insertion is it... since that's been around forever (you don't have to "mount
Re:No kidding (Score:5, Informative)
Here are the dates on the patents:
5,597,307: January 28, 1997 (filed May 11, 1995)
5,795,156: August 18, 1998 (filed November 1, 1995)
6,249,863: June 19, 2001 (filed May 3, 1999)
6,418,532: July 9, 2002 (filed March 22, 2001)
Also, here's the date on the Microsoft Autorun patent:
6,366,966: April 2, 2002 (filed December 13, 1994)
So, while three of the TVI patents are OLDER than the Autorun patent, the Autorun patent was filed six months earlier than the first TVI patent.
Re:No kidding (Score:5, Informative)
Applies to more than MS (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Applies to more than MS (Score:3, Insightful)
I've even got VCR head cleaner tapes that use this feature and the "auto-rewind at the end" and "auto-eject after rewind" features. You just put the head cleaner in and let the machine clean its own heads. When the tape pops back out, you're done.
Re:Applies to more than MS (Score:5, Funny)
no joke, but my shlong too. It has DNA data that gets accessed upon insertion.
Re:Applies to more than MS (Score:5, Funny)
I'm sorry for you and your significant other. I'm luckily have some control over when my DNA data gets accessed.
Re:New Patent (Score:3, Funny)
glancing at that the first time I thought it said "red head."
the patents are.... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:the patents are.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:the patents are.... (Score:5, Funny)
You have 795 numbers in your Lotto?
Egads, THOSE are some stiff odds...
Re:the patents are.... (Score:2, Funny)
How can you copyright a process? (Score:2, Insightful)
Priot art (Amiga) (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Priot art (Amiga) (Score:2)
Re:Priot art (Amiga) (Score:3, Informative)
I'm not so sure about this. I think I remember there was a special switch in the drive that was used to support this feature...there were only a few manufacturers that made the particular mechanism with it...Canon, Chinon maybe...other mechanisms (Matsushita I think made one like this) could be used but then you needed a to run a CLI command when you inserted the floppy so it wo
new tag (Score:4, Insightful)
this is ridiculous.
Re:new tag (Score:2, Insightful)
I want to hear from a Patent Examiner (Score:5, Interesting)
Are they overworked and understaffed and forced to just rubberstamp things?
Are they untrained in technology to recognize things like this?
Are they in need of being hit over the head with a clue by four?
Something is seriously wrong at the USPTO (now more then ever seemingly).
Re:I want to hear from a Patent Examiner (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I want to hear from a Patent Examiner (Score:3, Insightful)
You can't just submit a patent and expect the examiners to prove a negative. "Go out and prove I didn't invent X". Unless its obvious, in which case they throw it out.
So, basically, they just go ahead and grant the patent (or application), and let the courts handle it. TVi says they have a patent, MSFT says the patents are invalid (because of prior art, obviousness, they invented it first, etc), and they dance in court about it.
Re:I want to hear from a Patent Examiner (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I want to hear from a Patent Examiner (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I want to hear from a Patent Examiner (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I want to hear from a Patent Examiner (Score:5, Funny)
1/ yes
2/ yes
3/ yes
4/ yes (oups! It wasnt a question!)
cheers.
Amiga 500 (Score:3, Informative)
It's a non-starter... (Score:5, Interesting)
IIRC, Autoplay has been shipped in MS operating systems since 1996. TVI has been sitting on this for eight years. Which means, of course, that if the statute of limitations hasn't expired, they will be severely limited in the remedies they are allowed to seek. It's not like this escaped their attention for 8 years.
Of course, IANAL, but I'm pretty sure that even if TVI wins the case, they won't be able to collect damages for past infringement because they clearly did not demonstrate "due diligence" in protecting their patent. They might end up with a compulsory license agreement; or to avoid infringement, Microsoft OS's may end up simply popping up a dialog box ("Would you like to play this CD?") when a disk is inserted.
Yeah, I'd put TVI at net loss on this one. Their lawyers are going to make more money than they will.
Re:It's a non-starter... (Score:5, Insightful)
And this differs from every other lawsuit in the world in what way?...
Re:It's a non-starter... (Score:2)
Re:It's a non-starter... (Score:2)
Bruce
Re:It's a non-starter... (Score:2)
Re:It's a non-starter... (Score:2)
Well, first of all, XP does this already, and secondly, that would still be a "method for starting up a process automatically on insertion of a storage media into a host device."
The only solution would be to not even recognize the media. The user would have to do it manually, which I do anyway.
NO, I DON'T WANT WiMP TO PLAY THIS CD!
Re:It's a non-starter... (Score:3, Interesting)
I thought that you only had to proctect a trademark, not a patent? As far as I know, from a legal point of view, you can just sit on something for a while. It's definitely slimy and I'm sure that any reasonable judge would look unfavorably, but I *think* it is legal. Comments?
One good thing about patent ridiculousness.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hopefully when enough 800, 1200 and 1600 pound gorillas start beating up on each other then there will be some reform. (Hopefully)
Re:One good thing about patent ridiculousness.... (Score:4, Informative)
What strikes me on this one is that it was filed in 1995, and the filing specifically mentions CD-ROMs and Wintel PC's. How could this have escaped notice until now? It's not as if it was hiding in some dusty filing cabinet for years, it was filed by the same company that currently holds it, while Windows 95 was in beta!
I dunno, maybe the USPTO is right, maybe this stuff isn't so obvious. Even the people who filed the damned patent couldn't figure it out.
What about VCRs? (Score:5, Interesting)
(Okay, they just output analog stuff from tape, but they do have microcontrollers, and some can even digitize the signal eg. for better pause and slow motion image quality.)
No (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe you were thinking about vold [sourceforge.net] or some other similar project.
My new patent (Score:3, Funny)
The really sad thing... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The really sad thing... (Score:3, Insightful)
Whenever I have to use an XP box at the university, any data CD, zip, or key-drive thats loaded into the computer which has a directory of picures brings up a "this media has pictures...how do you want to open it?" prompt. I always end up hitting cancel, but whatever happened to "let me put the media in and don't get in my way"
Patently absurd? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Patently absurd? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Patently absurd? (Score:3, Informative)
Patently Absurd (Score:3, Funny)
I suspect it's only a matter of time until someone draws up a patent claim of the nature:
Patent 3,012,238,021...(ad infinitum) --- A method of inserting and pumping a large tubular or cylindrical item into a foes rectum, with the assistance of well studied lawyers...
Just watch, man, I'm telling the day is well nigh!
autofs etc. (Score:4, Informative)
No, autofs/ automount automatically mount media (be that an NFS share or whatever) when they detect it is needed (so the process is demand driven rather than media driven).
Perhaps you're thinking of supermount [sourceforge.net]
So what? (Score:5, Funny)
Patent Dates (Score:5, Interesting)
November 1995 was around the time Windows 95 was released IIRC. It almost seems opportunistic. Maybe the patent holder quickly came up with a patent after seeing Win95, and filed it hoping that with a long enough gap he would be able to sue for patent infringement.
Cheers
The miracle of life (Score:4, Funny)
a man and a women have intercourse. data is transfered from the man to the woman. womans host process upon recieving data begins the process of creating life. details left out for as excercise for the student
yada yada.
Re:The miracle of life (Score:2, Funny)
I study computer science, you insensitive clod!
Don't you see how good it is that they sued MS? (Score:2, Interesting)
With any luck, this will be a step in the right direction.
Patent Suits are not what wil change Patent Laws. (Score:5, Interesting)
And no, it's not cases like this that will cause anything to change. For that will need to be done by tax paying citizens taking up torches and pitchforks and decending upon Washington in an orgy of blood lust. Then maybe we might see Congress decide to "review" the patent application process.
what about HR 1561 (Score:3, Informative)
Congress is already reviewing the patent process via HR 1561 being voted on today?
United States Patent and Trademark Fee Modernization Act of 2003 is important as it allows for inventors to submit their own searches from an outside source, such as the european patent office or a private search firm.
On a side note, tax payers don't pay patent examiners. The USPTO is a fully fee funded agency.
Re:Patent Suits are not what wil change Patent Law (Score:3, Insightful)
That won't happen. For the average citizen to revolt against Congress, some severe problem must exist that directly and adversely affects the citizen.
Patent problems only affect inventors, not consumers. The United States predominately consists of consumers who are not directly af
I've had it with these suits (Score:2)
SCO and a handful of questionable Linux, every little thing in MS-DOS/Windows, 1-Click shopping.
I need to duct my head to together so that when it finally does explode all the little bits will be there.
A quick look at the patents in question (Score:3, Interesting)
5,795,156 [uspto.gov] is a 1995 filed patent claiming to have invented using a hardware based "output lead" on a peripheral in a computer to detect media. I a, confused here. Assuming they were not developing a computer from scratch(and had never seen a removable media before 1995). I am not sure how they can patent a feature of components they did not develop themselves.
6,249,863 [uspto.gov] is a claim modified from the above patent of checking for a specific file (ie. like reading a VCD or IO.SYS, COMMAND.COM as in old MSDOS) to make sure the correct or specific media is inserted.
6,418,532 [uspto.gov] filed in 2001, claims to have invented the play button.
The USPTO is not mandated to verify the novelty of patents. However, patent law must be changed so that the burden of prior art falls on plaintiff in these cases(ie. pay for third party patent researchers).
I would be ashamed to consider myself the inventor of these. They are obviously wanting a small payoff from MS. IANAL
This would be the light entertainment story, yes? (Score:3, Informative)
Funny, that patent was filed on December 13, 1994.
The earliest of the TVI patents was filed on May 11, 1995. Now maybe their "invention" was developed prior to MS's patent application.
I just find it funny that, on one hand, they'll be trying to use their products as prior art, while at the same time hoping nobody else's products are used against them...
Some points/Questions (Score:4, Funny)
2)What about a toilet that 'knows' to flush automatically when I insert 'media'?
3)My trash compactor will start up when I close the door, but only if there is a bag in it. Isn't this miracle of modern science 'prior art', thus invalidating that patent?
No autorun (Score:3, Informative)
You don't always have to edit the registry. Sometimes its a simple point and click job. Details are here [annoyances.org].
detecting insertion of a storage media (Score:3, Informative)
Heck, wouldn't starting to play the pre-recorded tape when I insert it into my old VHS VCR also fit the discription? I've had VCRs that do that for 20 years.
Need a new category (Score:3, Interesting)
What about a toaster? (Score:4, Insightful)
I suppose the question is, does bread qualify as a storage media?
Fortunately my toaster toasts floppies and CDs equally well (although they are not nearly as tasty).
Oh no! (Score:3, Insightful)
Prior Art (Score:5, Funny)
Oh - wait...they're suing Microsoft. Ah. In that case:
Those evil Microsoft guys - always stealing other people's technology. Bastards!
My local causality patent (Score:3)
--god
LOL! (Score:2)