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Patents Data Storage

Company Claims Patent on CD Writing 559

rborek writes "According to CNet News.com, Roxio is being sued by Optima Technology over Patent 5,666,531 which covers 'Recordable CDROM accessing system'. It looks as though the patent describes DirectCD and its packet writing technique. Many different programs and operating systems use this - including Linux, which opens the door for widespread patent licensing issues if the suit is valid and the patent upheld."
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Company Claims Patent on CD Writing

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  • patents (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mr_tommy ( 619972 ) <tgrahamNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:41PM (#7737768) Journal
    It would seem, that in light of recent IT events, a business model build around patent litigation isn't as stupid as it sounds....
    • Re:patents (Score:5, Funny)

      by iCat ( 690740 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:44PM (#7737805)
      Sure beats working for a living...
      • If you read the claims in the patent, simple multi-session CDs are covered as well. The patent was filed April 7, 1995. I'm fairly certain multisession technology was implemented on CD-ROMS before then.

        Also, the patent only applies to "CDROM"s. It does not apply to DVD-based media.

        I also think the patent is invalid because they had to limit their patent to applying to CDROMs. Meaning it was already in use for other types of media (other filesystems, whatever.). Meaning it is one of the "logical next
    • Re:patents (Score:3, Insightful)

      by trentblase ( 717954 )
      Don't law firms build their business model around litigation? They seem to do pretty well.
      • Re:patents (Score:4, Funny)

        by Fulcrum of Evil ( 560260 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @03:10PM (#7738181)

        Don't law firms build their business model around litigation?

        well, that would make sense, what with them employing all those lawyers. Don't try this if most of your employees are software geeks.

      • Re:patents (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Frymaster ( 171343 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @03:24PM (#7738331) Homepage Journal
        Don't law firms build their business model around litigation? They seem to do pretty well.

        yes. but tbey deal with litigating and defending against litigation. they sell to both sides - kind of like the krupps [wikipedia.org].

        companies that pursue litigation as a business model, however, only play one side: offense. there's no money to be made defending.

    • Re:patents (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Naffer ( 720686 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:45PM (#7737815) Journal
      There really ought to be a statute of limitation with this stuff. Seriously, packet CD burning was new like 5 years ago.
      1)Quietly Register Patent
      2)Wait for some company to make lots of money totally legitimately
      3)Sue until your stock price doubles!
      • Re:patents (Score:5, Interesting)

        by ColonelTom ( 714659 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @03:02PM (#7738101)
        Actually, there is - a legal doctrine called "laches." Essentially, you can get bounced out of court if the delay in filing suit (1) is unreasonable, based on the totality of the circumstances, and (2) creates material prejudice (e.g., the company being sued has invested millions in marketing the product and has built a substantial customer base). Furthermore, a delay of 6+ years is presumptively unreasonable, shifting the burden to the plaintiff to show a legitimate excuse for the delay in filing suit.
        • Re:patents (Score:3, Informative)

          Interestingly enough, Optima waited pretty much exactly 6 years after the Sep 1997 grant date to file the suit, obviously to let the industry get as big as possible. BTW, my reading of laches (IANAL) would indicate the industry might be be protected by laches for the period before the suit but not after; if Optima prevails then they'd have to get licences to continue operating.
      • Doubles? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by swordboy ( 472941 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @03:18PM (#7738279) Journal
        3)Sue until your stock price doubles!

        SCO stock didn't just double [yahoo.com], it went up twenty-fold at one point. If you are as smart, you'll short the stock [nasdaq.com] like some of the smarter geeks out there. The stock will eventually be sued into the ground and you'll have made 100 percent on your investment (minus comission and interest).
    • Re:patents (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Liselle ( 684663 ) *
      This one sounds familiar. Let's hope it goes the same way as the dot-com bomb. Early adopters will make money, then the litigation market saturates itself with people jumping on the bandwagon. They will run out of people to sue, then the bottom falls out of the whole deal, thousands upon thousand of IP lawyers will be out of a job, or will need to find other work. Years from now, with all of the chaff gone, the market matures, and reasonable people with good ideas are once again able to do business.

      Ma
    • Re:patents (Score:5, Interesting)

      by kaltkalt ( 620110 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:50PM (#7737920)
      as long as the patent office continues not to do its job and simply rubber-stamps every patent that comes its way, then yes... a business model built around patent litigation is not a stupid idea.
      • Re:patents (Score:5, Insightful)

        by jafuser ( 112236 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @03:07PM (#7738150)
        And as long as the patent office makes more money by rubber stamping approvals than it gets by rejecting, they will continue to approve everything they can get away with...
        • Re:patents (Score:3, Informative)

          by corbettw ( 214229 )
          Um, I'm pretty sure the PTO gets paid whether your patent is granted or not. So there's no profit motive for them in granting patents.
          • Re:patents (Score:5, Insightful)

            by johnnyb ( 4816 ) <jonathan@bartlettpublishing.com> on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @04:26PM (#7739151) Homepage
            "Um, I'm pretty sure the PTO gets paid whether your patent is granted or not. So there's no profit motive for them in granting patents."

            Yes there is. To _reject_ a patent, the PTO has to give a valid reason, including relevant prior art. This includes searching for the prior art and documenting it. To accept a patent, you just have to say that it's all okay.

            I've heard that it takes 7 times as long to reject a patent than it does to accept one.
            • I'm no expert, but it seems to me that if the PTO is doing its job right, it would take about the same amount of time to accept a patent as it would to reject it. The same amount of research should be done on every patent application to determine if the application is worthy.

              How can it take seven times longer to research an application and write a letter citing existing patents or prior art, than to research an application and write a letter granting a patent?

              Oh, our poor, poor PTO.

              • by cmarkn ( 31706 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @07:47PM (#7740978)
                Logically, it would even be the other way - once you find one existing patent or example of prior art, you could stop looking, which would usually be before you exhausted the entire database. To grant one, you would have to search the entire database, which would take longer.

                But hey, it means nothing anyway - the courts decide everything.
    • In patent circles Lemelson was the name of the game .... The basic concept was to file a patent, and then let it sit and sit and sit, and when enough people were using the patent, then Lemelson would get the patent issued and sue. Not exactly the same here, but as some other posts have mentioned, the effect is essentially the same. The Patent Office recognized this and I think designed systems to avoid the Lemelson Strategy ... I think these were also called the "submarine patents."

      Optima believes most e

    • Re:patents (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      "It was never the object of patent laws to grant a monopoly for every trifling device, every shadow of a shade of an idea, which would naturally and spontaneously occur to any skilled mechanic or operator in the ordinary progress of manufactures. Such an indiscriminate creation of exclusive privileges tends rather to obstruct than to stimulate invention. It creates a class of speculative schemers who make it their business to watch the advancing wave of improvement, and gather its foam in the form of patent
    • This Patent (System) (Score:5, Interesting)

      by ThosLives ( 686517 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @04:26PM (#7739145) Journal
      Well, my problem is not so much with this particular patent, as usual, as it is with the patent system in general. I could argue the merits (and lack thereof) of this particular patent but that would hardly help solve the current issues with the patent system.

      In order to address the issue with the patent system, the RIAA, SCO, the MPAA, and any other acronym you decide to dislike today, we have to figure out what it is the patent / copyright holders are requesting and what customers want (i.e., the reason innovation is Good).

      Firstly, let's say I have just come up with a neat little gadget. Now if I'm a small operation, I don't want some giant company to come and use my idea to beat me out of business through mass production. I simply want to be able to make a living off my idea. If I'm an artist, or an author, I want to be able to make a living off my concepts / performance. There's a little difference between both these concepts, so I'll focus on the patent idea.

      A patent, historically, applied to a new device or a new way of doing something (there are process patents, but typically they apply to things like "here's what you need to do to make chemical X"). Now, consider a patent to be something like an "implementation right". Basically a patent says that only the patent holder or the holder's approved agent may implement the said concept. This is similar to a copyright, which states that only the copyright holder or the holder's approved agent my copy a work. I don't have a problem with either of these concepts - with some caveats but I won't discuss those here.

      Now, we can argue whether or not it is good for society to have a single entity or authorized group implementing some process. It is generally assumed that it is good for the person implementing it - assuming that the implementation yeilds something for which people are willing to pay. However, what about situations where the person holding the rights to implementation isn't really good at it, and someone knows they could do it better but aren't allowed to because the original holder won't give them approval. This would be a Bad Thing.

      Now, what we see here is that independent of what is being implemented we can have unintended consequences with any "exclusive rights" kind of philosophy. What it is saying, though, is that such philosophies only work for "the greater good" if people are inherently altruistic, which history continually demonstrates is not the case.

      On top of the above idea, there is also the question of "what constitues an idea for which the implementation authority should be limited?" This is the current hot-topic with IP, specifically patents. What implementable ideas should be protected? What are the costs and benefits of both? Who benefits from the choice? Rarely do we see some small company which is unable to manufacture many things, with small market presence, and some company comes and stomps on them by "copying" their idea. Typically we see one guy with a patent, no ability to produce it, not trying to produce it, but only waiting for someone to copy it. From time to time we may see a small entity with a patent and license (i.e., authorize) some company to produce the product. That is the intended purpose of a patent - to allow the authorized to get started. We also see large corporations, with no real risk of losing their "livelihood", with large portfolios of patents - typically they use these to keep other people out of their industry by requiring large licensing fees, which is opposite the desired effect of patents - they prop up artificial barriers to market entry.

      As an aside, I have some issues with performance copyrights. For instance, people might be paying to see a particular person perform a song, not hear the particular song performed. For instance, me performing Beethoven's 9th on a kazoo is hardly the same as the London Symphony Orchestra playing it. So performance pieces, oddly, have a weird effect of there is the thing that is being performed i

      • "A patent, historically, applied to a new device or a new way of doing something (there are process patents, but typically they apply to things like "here's what you need to do to make chemical X")."

        When a process for producing medical grade acytlsalycilic acid was first developed, a major case broke out over whether the patent office could grant a new patent for something that was already produceable by a recognized process, simply because the new process resulted in fewer impurities. The court, noti
  • With recent price cuts to DVD writers, will anybody care in 18 months?
  • over the Internet?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:45PM (#7737820)

    I would have run out of lightning bolts to throw by now...
  • A common trend (Score:2, Interesting)

    by grims ( 602269 )
    Its becoming a more and more common trend in that software is allowed to develop freely - and then come out with a patent and start suing.

    I agree that Roxio should have looked at this patent, but an interesting trend nonetheless.
  • by Popsikle ( 661384 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:46PM (#7737836) Homepage
    Filed : April 7, 1995

    Granted : September 9, 1997

    This might be hard to beat. Anyone using a cd burner 8 years ago?
    • Some people did. I remember a couple of my college friends got together to finance a $1,000 CD burner that they shared amongs each other. That was back in 1996.
    • by Crazy Man on Fire ( 153457 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:51PM (#7737931) Homepage
      Anyone using a cd burner 8 years ago?

      Yes, actually.

      It was an enormous external Phillips (I think) SCSI unit. It took up about as much desk space as a 500-watt home theater receiver. It burned CDs at 1x and consumed all of the resources of the 150mhz Pentium II that it was attached to. Don't remember what software I was using to burn the CDs, though...

      • by DdJ ( 10790 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @03:44PM (#7738587) Homepage Journal
        We were also using a huge SCSI external CD recorder in 1994. For some reason, "Philips PCD-100" sounds right, but I'm not certain. I was working in a lab at the University of Pittsburgh that focused exclusively on new technologies -- we'd play with them there to figure out if they had any practical applications at the rest of the university. With a university that size, it was worth it to make "just go ahead and buy one and play around with it" a part of the process for evaluating new technologies. It was a great place to work.

        It was a big expensive thing, would make coasters over 50% of the time, and consumed all the resources of the Macintosh it was hooked up to (a high-end m68k mac, which was still in practice faster than PowerPC macs in those days) -- to such a degree that if anyone moved a single window during the burn, it would make a coaster. That sucked, because blanks were $15 and up.

        But alas, I also cannot remember what software we were using. I do remember the very first time I helped a local band burn an audio CD of their own work. That was a cool day.

        But I don't remember what software we used. I do remember that we could do multisession CDs, though many computers could not read the result. (Heck, none of the CD-ROM drives I myself owned at the time, like the original NeXT SCSI CD-ROM drive, could read CD-R media at all. Still have one of the SCSI ones from those days sitting around in an enclosure somewhere.)

        Other cool things we played with at that lab: wax transfer printers with PostScript interpreters, a photo quality full page dye sublimation printer (its consumables were strange), postscript printers that printed to 35mm film (amazingly useful for PowerPoint), all manner of video transfer equipment, all manner of scanners, and fairly early web sites (folks were pulling tricks to get specific behaviors out of Mosaic, and had to rebuild them when the first version of Netscape started to get some use).

        Anyway, that all reminds me -- before we were doing this stuff in the lab, photo CDs were already available. That was the first place I ever saw the use of CD-R media, and the first place I ever saw multisession CDs. Back in those days, sometimes vendors would refer to the capability of a CD-ROM drive to read multisession CD-R media as "photo CD compatibility". Folks researching prior art on this one should look at how PhotoCD production was done by the places you'd send your film to, back in the days before people could really do it themselves.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      Tons of people I know were.

      The issue is PacketWriting though. In and of itself I personally think floppy disks fall under prior art for this though. Disk+random access, there you go, there are the key tennets of this patent. It's the same thing, who cares about the exact medium. I can't wait really for patents to go away. I really don't care if one company takes the idea from another company and uses it. If we live is a so-called capitalistic or free market society why do we even have rules like this
    • I can remember WORM drives from over 15 years ago...they were the hot (if expensive) item back then...But maybe they didn't use their "proprietary" method.
    • Yes (Score:5, Interesting)

      by ucblockhead ( 63650 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:58PM (#7738036) Homepage Journal
      I worked for a company that bought a "WORM" (Write Once Read Many) drive for backup purposes in 1987. We were amazed at a technology that could store over 650 megabytes on a single replacable CD-like platter! It cost something like $10,000.
    • "Filed : April 7, 1995"
      "Granted : September 9, 1997"

      "This might be hard to beat. Anyone using a cd burner 8 years ago?"

      Not really... plenty of prior art.. (1 year prior to patent filing)

      Link to deja archive of cd-rom FAQ. (Mon, 11 Apr 1994 17:33:45 GMT) [google.com]

      here is a partial excerpt...

      "29. What is ECMA 168?"

      "ECMA 168 is a volume and file format standard for write-once CD and CD-ROM.
      It was approved as a European standard by the ECMA General Assembly in June
      of 1992. It provides for full Orange Book

  • by operagost ( 62405 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:46PM (#7737845) Homepage Journal
    Isn't this a predatorial practice and something that should be taken into consideration by the court hearing this case? Come on- people have been burning recordable CD-ROMs on their PCs for about six years now. Did it really take them that long to figure out Roxio was using their technology? It seems that this company, who I'd never heard of before, exists only to file lawsuits! It's probably a do-nothing holding firm that just bought out a bunch of tech failures and decided to start suing (like Caldera/SCO).

    Just look at their home page:

    Optima Technology files multi-million dollar lawsuit against Network Solutions
    Optima Technology Wins Settlement in Federal Patent Case
    Optima Milestones

    US Patent Number 5,666,531
    Optima Technology hires Southern California's top law firm Cox Castle Nicholson www.coxcastle.com to protect Optima's Intellectual Property
    Their "accomplishments" consist mainly of suing the pants off everyone they meet!
    • by wo1verin3 ( 473094 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:50PM (#7737921) Homepage
      >> Come on- people have been burning recordable
      >> CD-ROMs on their PCs for about six years now.

      More then 6 years good sir...

      In one of the SCO articles I read about part of the law stopping companies from waiting for long periods of time to maximize damages.

      However, the patent doesn't cover all CD burning, it covers a specific method of creating the image, best described by The Register [theregister.co.uk]:

      Essentially, it describes the technique used by many CD burning apps and utilities of creating an image of the disc in memory or on the hard drive which appears to the user as a CD. The virtual CD's contents can be updated at will, until the user is ready to burn the contents onto the disc, at which point the information can no longer be changed.

      Older versions of the software did not by default create a CD image and then burn it to the disc in the way some apps do now.
      • by Zathrus ( 232140 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @03:00PM (#7738056) Homepage
        it covers a specific method of creating the image

        In which case it should be moot under US Patent law since it is neither inobvious nor novel.

        Or are you trying to tell me that other programmers have not preformatted data in memory or on disk prior to writing it out -- whether out is a pipe, a socket, a floppy disk, a hard disk, shared memory, or (gasp) an optical disk?

        Whoever approved this patent was not an expert in the field, as the PTO is supposed to utilize while vetting patents.

        I haven't read the patent. Maybe there's some twists in there that The Register didn't cover (yeah, I'd be shocked at poor "news" out of The Register). But I doubt it.

        Applying a well known technique to a new media is not a patentable idea. Please.
    • by Alan Cox ( 27532 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @04:45PM (#7739374) Homepage
      Businesses will adapt to the profit making models available to them. Innovation and manufacturing are no longer profit making models in the USA, but sueing each other out of existance is, even though its bad for the nation as a whole.

      Blame the politicians, they created the economic incentive to move out of the USA, to manufacture outside of the USA and to do nothing but sue people in the USA.

      Better yet get them to fix it.
  • Linux (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    And if this didn't somehow affect Linux nobody would even care...
  • by andyrut ( 300890 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:46PM (#7737852) Homepage Journal
    In looking over the patent, it does seem to describe exactly what DirectCD does - allows the disc to be continually written upon and accessed by other computers with a DirectCD-like reader on it. So it looks like Roxio might be screwed.

    But does this affect the general user? I've personally never used DirectCD for anything; around our office we just burn a CD once, close the disc, and ship it out wherever it needs to go. Is there really a need for a continually writable procedure on a CD when there are so many other mediums more suitable and with more capacity than a CD?
    • Well if you use CD-RWs a lot, like I do, then it's a pain in the ass to reformat (45 min in my 12x burner) a CD-RW everytime you want to use it again. With packet writing software you can just erase the CD-RW or quickformat it (2 Minutes in my 12x).

      Jaysyn

      • Is that right?

        In my drive, and every other CD-RW wrive that I have used, you can blank a CDRW in a few different ways, the 'fast' way taking less than a minute (at 4x): (from cdrecord - dupes removed)

        Blanking options:

        all - blank the entire disk
        fast - minimally blank the entire disk (PMA, TOC, pregap)
        track - blank a track
        unreserve - unreserve a track
        trtail - blank a track tail
        unclose - unclose last session
        session - blank last session

        I've bee

  • Roxio's Response (Score:5, Informative)

    by wo1verin3 ( 473094 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:47PM (#7737866) Homepage
    Roxio Response: [prnewswire.com]
    SANTA CLARA, Calif., Dec. 16 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Roxio
    (Nasdaq: ROXI), The Digital Media Company(R), today responded to Optima
    Technology's allegations of patent infringement.
    We are aware of the Optima '531 patent and the claims within and believe
    that any claim of infringement by Roxio's software products is utterly without
    merit. At Roxio, we respect the legitimate intellectual property rights of
    others but in this instance there is no colorable argument that the claims set
    forth in the patent read on any Roxio products. We intend to aggressively
    defend ourselves in this litigation.
  • This seems to me like a specific example of an old technology, like virtual memory. It sounds like treating a physical media device as updatable memory. Which...is what I would think virtual memory is. Does making this specifically for writable CDs make this unique? Am I missing the uniqueness of this patent?
  • by Remlik ( 654872 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:48PM (#7737871) Homepage
    It took Optima 5+ years to figure out that all CDR Software/Hardware infringed upon their patent?

    Just another happy case of

    1) Patent some tech
    2) Wait for tech to become standard
    3) Collect the underware
    4) Sue for profit!
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:48PM (#7737883)
    please let me know when we can begin the DOS attack on their web site, mail server, etc.

    thank you.
  • Prior art? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:49PM (#7737892)
    Method of stylus-induced pits into clay, one tablet at a time.
  • by raehl ( 609729 ) <raehl311.yahoo@com> on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:49PM (#7737895) Homepage
    I usually use a felt-tip pen, as it has much better marking characteristics than a ball point. I've written several things on my CDs, including "Pictures" and "Document Folder Backup 11/2003". This patent is obviously frivolous.
  • by TopShelf ( 92521 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:49PM (#7737896) Homepage Journal
    If, as it initially appears (I'm no expert in this area), this patent represented a useful step forward in CDROM technology at the time, and the technology was picked up and used by Roxio and others without license, then why shouldn't Optima get due credit and compensation?
    • by mellon ( 7048 ) * on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:58PM (#7738037) Homepage
      Troil? Patents are required not to be obvious. This one is obvious - if you are writing a multisession CD, there is really only one way to present a uniform directory, and this is it. It should have been thrown out, but nobody at the PTO is qualified to determine what is and is not obvious, so they simply don't apply the obviousness test.

      Sigh.
      • by finnhart ( 653695 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @03:19PM (#7738289)
        Check out this article [168.143.83.89] for a discussion of what the USPTO looks for in determing if something is obvious or not.

        A particularly perverse line is this one:
        Commercial success shown to be linked to the merits of the invention can be powerful evidence of nonobviousness

        This would seem to imply that any patent in a lawsuit must be non-obvious ... because if you're suing someone, the patent must have some commercial success. And a commercially successful patent must be non-obvious. QED.

        urgh.
        • by mellon ( 7048 ) *
          The line I like from that page is this one:
          On the other hand, if such workers would shrug their shoulders and say "So?" then the invention might well have been obvious.
          So many of the patents we've seen on software since Diamond v. Diehr fall into this category.
    • If, as it initially appears (I'm no expert in this area), this patent represented a useful step forward in CDROM technology at the time, and the technology was picked up and used by Roxio and others without license, then why shouldn't Optima get due credit and compensation?

      Because they sat on this patent for six years while other people invested significant time and money independently inventing and developing this technology. They quietly waited and said nothing while other people built up valuable bus

  • by tokengeekgrrl ( 105602 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:49PM (#7737906)
    This kind of thing really drives me crazy. If it drives you crazy, check out this petition:

    http://www.petitiononline.com/pasp01/petition.html [petitiononline.com]

    I don't know if it will really do anything but any bit helps. Of course, getting someone into the patent office who actually has a clue as to how computer software/hardware works would be much more effective. These kinds of patents are akin to a rock band having a patent for a standard rock song chord progression and suing everybody who uses the same chords. Ridiculous.

    -- tokengeekgrrl

  • September 9, 1997

    The patent is over 6 years old and they're just now bothering to speak up about these "infringing industry standards".

    Sounds like an awesome business plan to fall back in case your crappy company starts to flounder because it hasn't done anything useful in years. Keep your mouth shut for more than half a decade until your patented technology becomes an industry standard that everyone uses, then suddenly start launching lawsuits up everyone's asses.

  • by thoolihan ( 611712 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:50PM (#7737925) Homepage
    Consider supporting the following groups:
    Free Software Foundation [gnu.org]
    Electronic Frontier Foundation [eff.org]

    ... and read
    The Danger of Software Patents [gnu.org]

    -t
  • Prior art? (Score:4, Informative)

    by rjmx ( 233228 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:51PM (#7737932)
    The abstract says:

    The Recording Technique provides a directory which indicates the location of only the last version of any stored information or modified entry of stored information, prior versions being transparent to the operating system. The Recording Technique further provides a directory recorded on the CDROM which is transportable to other computers having the Recording Technique installed thereon. As a result, the user of a computer with a CDROM reader will interface with the CDROM in the same manner as with a non-volatile memory device that is read only.

    OK, so I'm not a CD engineer, but:

    • "prior versions being transparent to the operating system" ==> sessions?
    • "will interface with the CDROM in the same manner as with a non-volatile memory device that is read only" ==> ISO9660 image?

    All these things existed well before September, 1997, AFAIK!!

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:52PM (#7737949)
    I cringe everytime I check Slashdot. The world is getting downright surreal. Above this posting is a story about a broad patent on packet writing, and above that an ad for Microsoft Windows Services for UNIX, and to my left the Slashdot logo.

    Am I dead?

    Did I blow it and not believe in Jesus the right way and now I'm in some sort of ... hell?
  • I couldn't figure out whether this is the same patent or not. Maybe I missd something in the news article or the this article from optimas website: http://www.optimatech.com/settlefederalcase.html [optimatech.com]

    It seems like they've won before against a "key macintosh software company". Who that is, I'm not sure.

    Given that they have a direct link to the patent pdf on their homepage, I'd assume that is the one they are talking about. Since they've won a settlement before, does that give any more credibility to this
  • by jeffkjo1 ( 663413 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:54PM (#7737966) Homepage
    This company is amazing. If you read their corporate history [optimatech.com], it's littered with stories of litigation. My favorite entry:
    Feb. 2003: Optima partners with the Lava Group www.lavagroup.net to enforce Optima patents, trademarks, copyrights and intellectual property


    Do they really think that their customers particuarlly care that they hired new lawyers?
    Sounds like EOLAS 2: Electric Bugaloo, but the dates on the patent are gonna be hard to match.
  • This is crazy. How long has there been packet-writing software? The a**holes who think they have a patent on it should have pounced at the beginning. It's too late now - they can go to hell. IANAL by any means, but don't you have to assert your patent in a timely fashion for this sort of thing to stick?

    This patent business is beginning to make me sick.

  • by AaronStJ ( 182845 ) <AaronStJ@gCHICAGOmail.com minus city> on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @02:57PM (#7738011) Homepage
    It seems to me that copmanyies very often sit on a patent until their 'invention' becomes very popular before enforcing the patent. Perhaps patents should be more trademarks, either enforece it, or lose it. As it stands, each copmany that wants to bring a product to market would have to do a thorough (and costly) patent search to avoid litigation. This seems counter-intuitive for ideas that have established themselves, or even become standards, such a packet writing. After all, if countless other companies are producing it, why should I expect to have any trouble myself? But then, boom, the company holding the obscure patent comes out of nowhere.

    It's unfair of a company to keep quiet about patent infringement until their invention has become a standard, and then try to leverage their way into a monopoly with patent litigation. If they had been forthcoming about their patent in the first place, perhaps other (better?) standards would be invented. Or, if the idea behind the patent really is that good, the original copmany would en up with most of the market share, and come by it honestly.

    In conclusion, patents should be more like trademarks. Use 'em or lose 'em.
    • Doctrine of laches (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Hamster Lover ( 558288 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @03:41PM (#7738558) Journal
      Of course, IANAL and this was gleaned from the web:

      It's been mentioned here before, but a patent holder has to make reasonable efforts to secure their patent in the marketplace. If a patent holder neglects enforcement of their patent when an infringement occurs, the patent holder may be guilty of a "submarine patent", where the patent holder specifically withholds action on infringement to maximize allowable damages. The defense to such ocurrences is termed the doctrine of laches and was laid out in a Supreme Court ruling.

      The doctrine of laches defense has two elements:

      - The alleged infringer will suffer serious harm to their business if the patent were enforced or if the period of time before action was such that important evidence or witnesess were lost.

      - The patent holder delayed action for an unreasonable and inexcusable period of time.

      Typically, six years is held to be a reasonable amount of time before the doctrine of laches may be used as a defense. Note that the burden of proof rests with the infringer and that both elements must be proven on the proponderance of the evidence and any further infringement is actionable.

      That's as much as I could find.
  • by BJZQ8 ( 644168 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @03:01PM (#7738079) Homepage Journal
    I am starting to think that this sue-crazy atmosphere that just gets thicker and thicker with lawyers will be the downfall of Western Civilization. Sure, we have to protect intellectual property and all, but sheesh...this is just downright predatory. It's dangling bait out in front of an industry until they all adopt it, then biting down on them with litigative teeth. At this rate, someone will come up with a patent on breathing...and we'll all have to pay up or desist.
    • "I am starting to think that this sue-crazy atmosphere that just gets thicker and thicker with lawyers will be the downfall of Western Civilization."

      You missed your chance at extra Slashdot points by not mentioning the obvious CD burning software called "NERO" which would've been funny considering the subject line of your post...

      • That's what I was thinking of when I did the post, since I am burning some CD's with Nero right now. But I was doing it to make a point about the issue, not karma points.
  • by G4from128k ( 686170 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @03:02PM (#7738096)
    Is the Optima Technology patent the ONLY way to write to CDs? If not, then somebody else can innovate around the patent. The nice thing about patents is that they fully disclose the invention so that others might create even better inventions.

    Aside from the stealthy nature of the patent application process, I would think that most technologists would think patents irrelevant. After all, a patent assumes fairly slow moving rates of innovation -- that the patent wil be valuable for tens of years. Yet I would think that the rapid pace of innovation would make any patent useless after a few years.

    Its time for innovation.
  • by SiliconJesus101 ( 622291 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @03:12PM (#7738205) Homepage
    Well, after reading their patent, I think that what they are refering to is more of a multi session write without importing the prior sessions.

    According to the patent: "The Recording Technique provides a directory which indicates the location of only the last version of any stored information or modified entry of stored information, prior versions being transparent to the operating system."

    Packet writing does not leave behind the old data and only make it "transparent" to the operating system....it in fact rewrites the sectors that are not allocated in directory entries (file allocation table??); I would also assume that this multi-session writing is already an ISO standard.

  • More interesting (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Uma Thurman ( 623807 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @03:18PM (#7738278) Homepage Journal

    Roxio's Easy CD Creator software has been one of the most widely used applications for burning music and data to recordable discs, although the popularity of the software has waned since such functions were incorporated in the latest versions of the Windows and Macintosh operating systems.


    I think this is more interesting. Is Roxio going to get StaXored?
  • by The I Shing ( 700142 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @03:27PM (#7738372) Journal

    Why does their patent's number appear on this page at the USPTO website:
    http://www.uspto.gov/go/og/2001/week46/patexpi.htm [uspto.gov]?

    How can they enforce an expired patent?

    As far as my own opinion of this debacle, I'm confident that prior art will be found to invalidate the patent, whether it's expired or not.

    But if Roxio settles, this company is going to come after small companies. You bet they won't tangle with Microsoft or Dell or anyone like that.

  • Ever notice... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by AndyChrist ( 161262 ) <andy_christ.yahoo@com> on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @03:38PM (#7738514) Homepage
    How many of these lawsuits are on patents which would have to be many years old (or just stupid patents with truckloads of prior art), and only come up once the company being sued for the alleged infringement is successful? These patent holders never intend to make anything, they just let someone else do the actual work and then try and shake some money out of them.

    Assuming the patent wasn't bullshit to begin with.

  • by miffo.swe ( 547642 ) <daniel...hedblom@@@gmail...com> on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @04:01PM (#7738820) Homepage Journal
    Software is not something you can patent because of fundamental differences in the nature of the end product and how it is manufactured.

    Can you imagine someone patenting a device called "method for using a fork to emulate a comb" ? Well that is just what patenting software is mostly about. While when you patent a way to acheive a goal in real life patents you patent the goal in software patents. If i want to do A in software HAVE to use method B, very often because that is the obvious and right way. If i dont do it that way i have to take unessecary steps to get around the obvious solution, often by doing something different than i first set out to do (before i had even thought about how).

    The patent becomes the gatekeeper to an end goal and not to one perticular way of acheiving this goal. It is all to evident that software patents is going to inhibit US development of software and give Asia and China etc an enourmous advantage.

    I could swallow it if the patents wore carefully examined and very restrictive but the USPO seems to give patents out like the green card lottery.

  • by shlong ( 121504 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @04:07PM (#7738895) Homepage
    (Disclaimer: I wrote the UDF support in FreeBSD, but I have offer no other legal or technical advice)

    As usual, the /. headline is vague and misleading. This doesn't look like it applies to CD recording itself, or even packet writing. Instead it looks like it applies to the VAT in the UDF >= 1.5 spec. Basically, the VAT is a sector remapping table. Since CD-R media can only be recorded sequentially, and obviously cannot overwrite existing sectors/packats, the VAT makes this linear recording look like a normal random access filesystem. The VAT is not used on CD/DVD RW media so those are probably clear, and definitely is not used in iso9660 volumes. So at worst this means that the UDF spec becomes encumbered when using the VAT. I'm not clear on whether the OSTA, IEEE, and/or ECMA bodies knew about this patent when they ratified the various specs that contribute towards UDF, but this definitely looks to be an abuse by the patent holder.

    Worst case scenario is that this patent is upheld and Roxio (and others like Nero) start paying royalties. The Linux distributors might have to remove VAT support from their kernels. Commercial OS vendors would have to decide on whether to license it or remove it. I'm not sure if DVD mastering software will be affected since the VAT is not part of the UDF 1.0 spec. mkisofs might be affected also if it impliments VAT. Whether the OSTA committee responds with an alternative remains to be seen. But, it's not the end of the world. Like I said, I don't think that this has any bearing on CD-R's that are recorded with traditional iso9660 filesystems. Supporting write-once media and VAT is a PITA anyways, so this gives me a good excuse to not care about it in my implimentation =-)
  • by penguin7of9 ( 697383 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @04:16PM (#7739028)
    WORM file systems using such techniques have been around since at least the 1980's.
  • by johnlcallaway ( 165670 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @04:24PM (#7739122)
    Part of the patent states:
    The current technique which is used to write to a recordable CDs involves mastering software which has the following drawbacks:

    1) It incorporates a file interface that is unfamiliar to the user.

    2) The copying process is generally accomplished through track-at-once or disc-at-once recording. This means the user must take great care to pre-plan the copying and dedicate storage resources (the source disk(s)) ahead of time.

    3) The user cannot access data being stored on the disc until the track-at-once or disc-at-once recording is completed.

    4) These recording techniques are very susceptible to data under run. This means that dedicated high speed data sources are needed.

    5) Other mastering techniques may support incremental writing but the data on these discs can only be read by the mastering software. They cannot be used or accessed by the computer operating system or other applications.

    Thus there is a need for a technique which allows the CDROM, whether blank or partially written, to appear to a user exactly as would any other storage media, such as a hard disk.
    To my non-legally trained mind, this appears to apply to a process that lets someone 'mount' a burnable CD and just drag and drop files onto it, making the CD appear to be a normal disk drive. It doesn't appear to cover creating a CD project (for lack of a better word) that includes a bunch of files, then burning the CD.

    If this is true, what's all the hubbub, bub?? I have never used this function of my Adaptec software, and have no desire to. I prefer to build a list of files, and burn my CDs once.

    While the arguments about taking too long to sue for infrignment have merit, I think the actual impact to most users will be minimal.

    Why that is so difficult (as the patent claims) I don't know. Probably a PEBKAC issue.....
  • by serutan ( 259622 ) <snoopdougNO@SPAMgeekazon.com> on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @04:51PM (#7739441) Homepage
    Here is an idea to thwart these pirate lawsuits. I call them pirate lawsuits because I see companies using a deliberate strategy of waiting for others to do the hard work of developing businesses around a technology, then swooping in, with government backing, to steal the profits. It's like the days when piracy on the high seas was sometimes sanctioned by kings.

    One solution would be a statue of limitation for infringement. If patent holders had a one- or two-year time limit for filing infringement suits, they wouldn't be able to wait for billion dollar industries to develop before asserting their rights. People with technology they consider worthwhile would have to protect it in a timely fashion.

    An actual lawsuit shouldn't be necessary as a first step, as the cost of litigation might be prohibitive to fledgling innovators. But a patent holder should have to lodge a complaint within the time period. There would be no injunction against the party using the technology. The complaint would be like a building permit, and would have its own expiration date of a year or two before the holder would have to take legal action or drop the complaint.
    • The problem with that is, now you're holding the responsiblity of discovering these infringing activities on the patent holders. This would lead to companies purposely infringing on a product and doing it in such a way as to avoid detection for a period of time, say selling only 1 piece of the product in some remote town.
  • Patent Reform (Score:3, Interesting)

    by nurb432 ( 527695 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @05:27PM (#7739820) Homepage Journal
    While most agree that an inventor should get credit for his invention, and be able to sue anyone that tries to steal it, this technique of 'stealth patents' need to be abolished.

    If it can be proven you intentionally sat on your patent while it became embedded into a large part of society before you stood up, you should be denied the claim to your patent.

    If it can be proven you didnt know.. then all bets are off and sue the pants off the offenders...

    THis is pretty much how trademark law works now... why should patents be any different?

  • by nurb432 ( 527695 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @05:30PM (#7739843) Homepage Journal
    Well, not everything, but most everything we use on a daily basis and take for granted.

    We need to find a way to deal with this fact, instead of running around with blinders on and hoping the patent holder is benelovant.

    Also might be good to start collecting ALL source you can find, before its taken out due to the patent holders down the road.. And i dont just mean software source, but also books, formulas, etc..
  • by starseeker ( 141897 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @08:50PM (#7741410) Homepage
    OK, we all know this is patent thing is out of hand, and the odds of getting rid of software patents are now approximately nil, thanks to the $$$$ that some folks are making or hope to make from them. However, there might be an alternative way to handle this...

    Create a new type of submission to the Patent Office, called a Documentation Of Art. Unlike a patent it doesn't have to go through the $$$ process of evaluation, since it would grant no rights to the person filing and wouldn't have to be checked extensively. What would happen, however, would be that the idea is filed in the archives of the patent office, to be checked whenever anyone files a new patent on something related to the DOA as a possible example of prior art.

    This would allow the open source community and other companies to return some sanity to this game. If a DOA is filed, then the assumption is the idea must have been trivial enough that someone didn't expect to make $$$$ off of it. Or, alternately, the original inventor chose to give up his monopoly on the idea freely. Open Source groups and companies tired of patent wars could file very large numbers of well organized DOA forms and make sure it's at least harder for the patent office to characterize something obvious to the tech industry as non-obvious.

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