Catch up on stories from the past week (and beyond) at the Slashdot story archive

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Privacy United States

Defense Department Drafts RFID Policy 156

Bob Wehadababyitsaboy writes "According to CNET News, the Department of Defense has announced its new policy of requiring all suppliers to use RFID chips in all goods supplied to the military by 2005, except on bulk commodities such as sand, grit or liquids. It claims that this move will help them streamline inventory and delivery of vital supplies around the world."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Defense Department Drafts RFID Policy

Comments Filter:
  • Dammit... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Realistic_Dragon ( 655151 ) on Sunday October 26, 2003 @08:22AM (#7313122) Homepage
    With improved inventory controls, how the hell am I going to get my hands on a 'surplus' tank now?
    • by AndroidCat ( 229562 ) on Sunday October 26, 2003 @09:09AM (#7313151) Homepage
      So? Swap the tags. With "improved inventory controls", no one is going question that your surplus MRE looks rather large and tank-like.

      The attitude "The computer said so, so it must be right" is always amusing to the people who program them.

      • by RealUlli ( 1365 )
        So? Swap the tags. With "improved inventory controls", no one is going question that your surplus MRE looks rather large and tank-like.

        Better yet, reprogram the computer so it says "MRE, over the best before date". When it's capable to move on its own, you better get rid of it. - When it makes the ground shake slightly when moving, better get rid of it QUICKLY! - "Here, let me help you... "

        Cheers, Ulli

      • speaking as an adult whose childhood was a "base brat" this should have been modded insightful not funny *sigh*
      • So? Swap the tags. With "improved inventory controls", no one is going question that your surplus MRE looks rather large and tank-like.

        And somewhere out there will be a Third World dictator screaming in frustration when his black market "surplus" tanks come in little packages labeled "Beefsteak w/Mushrooms", "Chili and Macaroni", ...

  • by Anonymous Coward
    I've seen these systems in action...

    Scan, scan, scan... Check one box. Scan, scan, scan. Mistakes aren't noticed for months.

    SGT: Quick Private, Go get a box a gas masks for those civilians
    PRVT: Hey, this box is just full of baked beans

  • Prediction... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ivi ( 126837 ) on Sunday October 26, 2003 @08:31AM (#7313130)

    High-Powered Aircraft-Based RFID Transmitters
    with Super-Sensitive Receivers...

    The Easiest Way to Count Your Enemy's Resources

    (Or are all these RFID's only in the packaging,
    or only with the items they label until
    they have been checked-in the first time?
    • And DoS attacks too (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Morgaine ( 4316 ) on Sunday October 26, 2003 @09:15AM (#7313172)
      The potential dangers go further than merely allowing "the enemy" (LOL) to check your inventory. It's pretty easy to forecast that denial of service attacks will be used against this system as well as mere snooping, and there's no way that it'll be hardened against them because RFID is marketed as a cheap and simple way of reducing your costs, which eliminates hardening entirely.

      By the way, there's no need for the sledgehammer aircraft-based transmitter approach. I would expect inventory snooping to be done by dropping small scanners into delivery trucks or air vents, or getting them positioned properly by the most powerful weapon, namely insider help, either voluntary or under duress.

      Even worse, this is not just an inventory issue. Once RFID tags are accepted, live hardware will employ them, and the potential problems then hit another dimension altogether.
      • cheap and simple way of reducing your costs, which eliminates hardening entirely.

        When the DoD is done with this, it will no longer be cheap or simple, but it WILL be hard.

      • by Anonymous Coward
        Umm, downvote me stupid if you want, but what's a DoS on a RFID tag actualy /do/? All it does is keep you from reading the tag reliably, which isn't all that useful. Also, the point from which you're DoSing is easy to trace -- just follow the hot/cold signals of energizer signal strength.

        Much more worring is the possibilty of enemy troups scanning for RFID tags. Sure, there's range issues -- it would work both ways, and you get more warning on one end then the other, but it's still worrying.

        Of course,
        • Umm, downvote me stupid if you want, but what's a DoS on a RFID tag actualy /do/? All it does is keep you from reading the tag reliably, which isn't all that useful. Also, the point from which you're DoSing is easy to trace -- just follow the hot/cold signals of energizer signal strength.

          Remember that the inventory system, by this time, is going to be completely dependant on RFID tags. This allows attacks on 3 areas:

          1. Disable the RFID tags themselves (burn them out with a (localized) EMP pulse). At thi
          • Look, if there's an EMP device that can be tuned that accurately (or can't, for that matter) being able to count MREs is going to be the last problem on the Army's list.

            Take out the comm links, or the GPS receivers, and our efficient, powerful armed forces turn into mobs.
      • Holy crap, with out the RFIDs, how will the tell whats inside the boxes? Oh, maybe they'll just look...

        Sorry, but burning out the tag on a box of bullets doesn't mean the bullets won't shoot people just as dead. And whose to say they won't keep barcodes around as an option?
    • It is simpler than that, by placing very small
      devices near the gate of a military base one can
      easily keep track of everything moving in and out.

      It is possible to make more soficiticated devices
      with encryption of some sort, a chap method or
      syncronized clocks. It is probably possible to
      make these devices moderatly secure, or even
      very secure. I don't see this being done.

      One would think the military whould find this type
      of security important. Yet the militarty keeps showing just how stupid large orgenizations
      • It is simpler than that, by placing very small
        devices near the gate of a military base one can
        easily keep track of everything moving in and out.


        Not at all - see, RFID tags work by responding to a transmission. You would have to have a transmitter close by a military base constantly transmitting. How long do you think that will last?
        • Not at all - see, RFID tags work by responding to a transmission. You would have to have a transmitter close by a military base constantly transmitting. How long do you think that will last?

          No need. Just find a transmitter near the camp entrance and put up a purely passive reciever. The 'official' transmitter will activate the tags. All you have to do is read their responses.

          • No need. Just find a transmitter near the camp entrance and put up a purely passive reciever. The 'official' transmitter will activate the tags. All you have to do is read their responses.

            I seriously doubt they'll be doing RFID tracking right at the front gate, if for no other reason than the very one you mention.

            • Instead of snipers up in the hills, you'll be looking for camoflaged RFID reception parabolic mirrors.

              Sir! Signals intelligence indicates that the enemy has just dispatched 1 bradley fighting vehicles and 4 APCs with 34 marines -- probably from the 3rd batallion -- which indicates that they've recieved reinforcements.

              Thank you corporal. Anything else to report?

              A four day supply of food and 50,000 rounds of ammunition.

              That definitely indicates reinforcements.. Yesterday's patrol had a 1 day supply

    • by Anonymous Coward
      Well, you could have smart mines that only explode when combatants of the appropiate side were in proximity. No collateral damage (milspeak for no innocent civilian casulties). We wish.


      Of course when the military brass catches on that these could be programmed to trigger off of the rfids on commissioned officers insignia bought at the PX (smart fragging) this whole rfid idea will be history.

    • by mickwd ( 196449 ) on Sunday October 26, 2003 @10:03AM (#7313316)
      Captain: Private, you've done the electronic sweep, are there any enemy soldiers nearby ?

      Private: No, SIR. But there's a pair of boots, a combat jacket and a rifle hiding behind that tree.....
    • If the enemy is close enough to scan your RFID tags, the tags are the least of your concerns.
    • My first thought was I would hate to have one of the things on me still while I was on the front lines. While there are probably easier ways to detect a soldier, it's yet another thing you have to worry about masking if you wish to remain stealthy.

      I very much hope they have powerful directed scanners to make sure this electronic trash is stripped off before sending anybody out in harm's way, or where an ECM like the what you or others suggested is used against them.
  • Face it (Score:4, Insightful)

    by NaCh0 ( 6124 ) on Sunday October 26, 2003 @08:58AM (#7313132) Homepage
    These high-tech barcodes are becoming commonplace if you like it or not.

    • This is just going to set a standard. The military for the longest time has set standards that are eventually adopted into the civilian sector.
      I mean hell you can see their effects in everything, flight, navigational, medicine, batteries, so guess what by like who knows 2010 RFID will be in everything (not that it took the military to do this) but it will just reinforce this drive.
      • I mean hell you can see their effects in everything, flight, navigational, medicine, batteries... ...the Internet....

        Geez, I thought I'd be the last person in the world to say this, but the military has occasionally introduced some good, positive technology.

  • by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Sunday October 26, 2003 @09:00AM (#7313136)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Not quite but the effect is the same.

      Figure a box of screws costs 10 cents, now they need a 5 cent tag, so the DOD pays 15 cents for the same parts.

      The contractors that supply the parts are the ones that will be passing on the costs to the gov.

    • How else do we pay for black ops?
    • No, but what will cost a fortune is that the government will require the entire surplus inventory of spare unused RFID tags to each have their own RFID tag, which in turn are themselves RFID-tagged, and so on.
  • RFID mines (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mlush ( 620447 ) on Sunday October 26, 2003 @09:01AM (#7313138)

    Build a RFID detector into a mines, boobytraps etc. If your in RFID range your in the killzone

    • The mine or boobytrap would have to emit RF energy to see the RFID. It would be easy to detect that signal, giving away the fact that the mine or boobytrap was in the area.

      It's simple physics. RFID signal must go both ways - from the mine to the RFID tag and back. The emissions from the boobytrap to a boobytrap detector are one way. You can detect the boobytrap before it can detect you. This is a well-known fact for counterdetection. E.g., you can detect a radar signal well-before the radar can see y

      • You could have the RF activate once the mine is activated, and use that as a Friendly Fire protection device.

        Mine is activated

        Radar activated

        Detects presence of authorized RFID

        Mine Disarms
        • Forget the mine.... (Besides, there are few countries outside of the US that have banned mines). To be legal, rather than blowing up, the mine can simply report back to headquarters that:

          US Seal Team 7 is attempting to infiltrate sector 4

          At that point, an automatic mortar unit could just blanket the area.
          When the war was over, the RFID 'mine' would be reporting back to a non-existent control center. This means that the next kid that tripped it wouldn't get turned into mixed body parts.

      • But does the boobytrap need to send the signal itself? I'm not sure about how exactly these RFIDs works, but do you need to _be_ the sende to compare the sent signal with the reflected one in order to determine the RFIDs ID (or just existence, ffor this purpose), or do you just have to listen to the reflected signal? If so, you will be able to tell there _is_ boobytrap, somewhere "near", when you see the signal, but not exactly where. And if you pass between the sender and the trap, kazap.
      • Almost. Keep in mind that the device supplying the power need not be the device reading the tag. A small drone plane could send out some fairly strong pulses to power up the RFID chips, while a previously layed down network of readers could detect whatever was tagged (probable identifying criteria: kill anything stupid enough to be tagged).
    • Better yet: Don't use mines. There are still dozens of countries where civilians still step on mines from past wars.Many countries have already banned these things (guess which nation didn't).

      Just say no to mines.
      • Better yet: Don't use mines. There are still dozens of countries where civilians still step on mines from past wars.Many countries have already banned these things (guess which nation didn't).
        Just say no to mines.

        Hmmmm

        • America is currently engaged in a War on Terror
        • The US Military are to use RFID chips

        With these two points in mind consider who is going to be using the mines and on whom. For bonus points, consider how likely the aggressor is to give up any class of weapons (gas, guns, mines, microb

      • It's OK we don't use mines in the USA so we don't really care!

        It would be cute if I was actally joking, huh...

    • lets add spycams and bugs to the list too! The politicians are just dumb enough to slip this thru!
  • Sluggish (Score:3, Interesting)

    by humpTdance ( 666118 ) on Sunday October 26, 2003 @09:06AM (#7313148)
    It may be required by suppliers in 2005, but that doesn't necessarily mean the military will successfully implement the technology by then. From my personal experience, IT tends to move incredibly slowly. It has taken more than 6 years and counting to implement Public Key Infrastructure; it has taken more than 10 years and counting for the Defense Message System. I won't be holding my breath on RFID.
    • Dont hold your breath too long.

      Drive by any AMC installation, you'll see little towers at the gate, those are the RFID towers.

      All of USARPAC (hawaii/alaska/japan) has been the test site, they have the towers at each gate, and each supply warehouse door, so far it works pretty well.

      Top funded things like this are much easier to field.

      Not sure why, but army IT is horrible 10 years behind, they need to fire most of the signal command chain of command, luckly this is NOT being pushed by the IT side, but by
  • Isn't the way this is worded a bit odd? Instead of a policy of buying only RFID'ed stuff, they are actually mandating that the RFID be put in?
    • No, it's not surprising at all; this puts the burden of RFID on the suppliers' head. The military doesn't want to re-inventory everything so they can put RFID on it; that would be counter-intuitive. Rather, have that process incorporated into the assembly line.
    • It is basically the same thing. Many of the DoD's purchases only have one supplier since the parts must conform to the published specifications (MIL-SPEC).
  • by Dareth ( 47614 ) on Sunday October 26, 2003 @09:13AM (#7313167)
    except on bulk commodities such as sand, grit or liquids.

    Soldier: Hey these grits taste like sand!
    Cook: Don't yell at me, we aint got those fancy smancy RFID tags in all our stuff so we can tell our shirts from our underwear!

  • I for one, am pleased to see that they don't want to go putting any of them little RFID tags in my grits. Please pass the biscuits and gravy.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26, 2003 @09:33AM (#7313223)
    I have no doubt the gov does not care about passed-along expenses, expecially because in theory most RFIDs are less than 4 cents each in cost, and getting cheaper.

    But worse RFIDs are in cars and readable from over twenty feet away:

    TOP SECRET FACT:Most modern cars have tracking transponders!

    Spy transmission chips embedded in tires that can be read REMOTELY while driving.

    A secret initiative exists to track all funnel-points on interstates and US borders for car tire ID transponders (RFid chips embedded in the tire).

    Yup. My brother works on them.

    Your tires have a passive coil with 64 to 128 bit serial number emitter in them! (AIAG B-11 ADC v3.0) . A particular frequency energizes it enough so that a receiver can read its little ROM. A ROM which in essence is your GUID for your TIRE. Multiple tires do not confuse the readers. Its almost identical to all "FastPass" "SpeedPass" technologies you see on gasoline keychain dongles and commuter windshield sticker-chips. The US gov has secretly started using these chips to track people.

    Its kind of like FBI "Taggants" in fertilizer and "Taggants" in Gasoline and Bullets, and Blackpowder. But these car tire transponder Ids are meant to actively track and trace movement of your car. FYI : Technical data on common explosives chemical fingerprint "taggants" from Princeton federal reports : http://www.wws.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/byteserv.prl/ ~ota/disk3/1980/8017/801705.PDF (slashcode sometimes inserts spaces into urls)

    I am not making this up. Melt down a high end Firestone, or Bridgestone tire and go through the bits near the rim (sometimes at base of tread) and you will locate the transmitter (similar to 'grain of rice' pet ids and Mobile SpeedPass, but not as high tech as the tollbooth based units). Sokymat LOGI 160, and Sokymat LOGI 120 transponder buttons are just SOME of the transponders found in modern high end car tires. The AIAG B-11 Tire tracking standard is now implemented for all 3rd party transponder manufactures [covered below].

    It is for QA and to prevent fraud and "car theft", but the US Customs service uses it in Canada to detect people who swap license plates on cars when doing a transport of contraband on a mule vehicle that normally has not logged enough hours across the border. The customs service and FBI do not yet talk about this, and are starting using it soon.

    Photos of chips before molded into tires:

    http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:TAQIKjBI01g C: www.sokymat.com/sp/applications/tireid.html

    (slashdot ruins links, so you will have to remove the ASCII space it insertess usually into the url above to get to the shocking info and photos on the enbedded LOGI 160 chips that the us gov scans when you cross mexican and canadian borders.)

    You never heard of it either because nobody moderates on slashdot anymore and this is probably +0 still. It has also never appeared in print before and is very secret.

    Californias Fastpass is being upgraded to scan ALL responding car tires in future years upcoming. I-75 may get them next in rural funnel points in Ohio.

    http://www.tadiran-telematics.com/products6.html

    but the fact is... YOU PROBABLY ALREADY HAVE A RADIO TRANSPONDER not counting your digital cell phone which is routinely silently pulsed in CA bay area each rush hour morning unless turned off (consult Wired Magazine Expose article). Those data point pulses are used by NSA on occasions.

    The us FBI with NRO/NSA blessings, has requested us gov make this tire scanning information as secret as the information regarding all us inkjet printers sold in usa in the last 3 years using "yellow" GUID barcode under dark ink regions to serialize printouts to thwart counterfeiting of 20 dollar bills. (30 to 40 percent of ALL California counterfeiting is done using cheap Epson inkjet printers, most purchased with credit cards foolishly). Luckily court dockets divulge the existence of the E
    • by Awptimus Prime ( 695459 ) on Sunday October 26, 2003 @10:43AM (#7313457)
      But worse RFIDs are in cars and readable from over twenty feet away

      So is your license plate! OH NO!
    • Wow, someone needs to up their meds a bit.
    • We would have succeeded in our nefarious plans if it wasn't for you meddling kids! Now that this idiot has revealed our secret plans to oppress the world by spying on your tires and cell phones, we will have to go back to the drawing board.

      Perhaps we will finally perfect the underwear cameras this time, but I hope that we get the microchip in nasal spray working, personally. That way we can directly embed the chip in your brains.
    • Quit buying the cheap tin foil at discount warehouses and once, just once, buy the good stuff at a quality store which ubdoubtedly tracks you with cameras, keeps track of your shopping cart, wants to sell you frequent buyer cards and so forth and so on... ...because I think you current tin foil hat is of inferior quality.

      What on Earth are you on with your 'top secret' blabber ?
      This topic has been passed by on Slashdot time and again :
      http://slashdot.org/search.pl?query=tyre%20tag s

      And is getting about as
    • So you go to Canada, buy new tires, and are no longer seen as the same car.

      It's not much of a secret government plot if
      1) Everyone knows that it's possible
      2) It can be foiled by changing your tires
    • You're absolutely insane. Do one of the following: Check into a mental hospital or jump off a bridge.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      I think this could be a great way to crack down on people who don't rotate tires, or are habitually under-inflated. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      The apparent facts in your post are very interesting. I try not to forget things like this once I read them; only by putting together related facts can we make a rational judgment about the truth.

      However...

      The general attitude with which you present this information easily dominates the readers' perception of you *and* the information itself. Much of the post is somewhat incoherent, jumping between topics (related topics, but different nonetheless) and occasionally repeating facts. This creates an image o
  • do you know where your rations are?

    -tog
  • by Morgaine ( 4316 ) on Sunday October 26, 2003 @09:51AM (#7313282)
    Just because products can be inventoried rapidly with RFID or barcodes doesn't necessarily mean that inventory control improves. There needs to be someone with a brain cell in the loop somewhere too.

    As a mildly funny example, I'm pretty tired of the wholemeal pitta bread running out every day several hours before the white variety in our local supermarket. It's been happening for years, despite the perpetual roving hoards of clerks running up and down the isles with their little scanning machines. You'd think that better stock control would be used to help increase sales by ordering optimal amounts.

    I bet you've all seen your own versions of this lack of a guiding intelligence in places, despite deployment of the latest technologies.
    • As a mildly funny example, I'm pretty tired of the wholemeal pitta bread running out every day several hours before the white variety in our local supermarket. It's been happening for years, despite the perpetual roving hoards of clerks running up and down the isles with their little scanning machines. You'd think that better stock control would be used to help increase sales by ordering optimal amounts. I bet you've all seen your own versions of this lack of a guiding intelligence in places, despite deplo
  • I can just see it now--some Intel-made chip somewhere starts to overheat or interfer with some other chip somewhere deep in a ammunition storage bunker. BOOM! Let's see Bush try to blame that on Al Qaeda!
  • on this [theregister.co.uk] page.
    I find that they tend to have an interesting take on things.
  • ... new policy of requiring all suppliers to use RFID chips in all goods supplied to the military by 2005, except on bulk commodities such as sand, grit or liquids.

    Of course, with IPv6, there's enough IP addresses for all those particles of sand and grit. Not sure about the liquids, though ... :)

    -kgj
  • by mhotas ( 680248 ) on Sunday October 26, 2003 @10:43AM (#7313456)
    that my tax dollars are not being used to ship sand around the world. Especially to Iraq.
    • I think P J O'Rourke commented on this - the sand in Arabia is not the right sort to make sandbags. But then where did you think the sand came from for sandbags in WW2 in Europe? You can't guarantee that your line of fortification will conveniently end in a sandpit.
    • Re:Please tell me... (Score:4, Informative)

      by Dun Malg ( 230075 ) on Sunday October 26, 2003 @03:30PM (#7314545) Homepage
      Please tell me that my tax dollars are not being used to ship sand around the world. Especially to Iraq.

      Dunno about Iraq, but the sandbags we had in Saudi/Kuwait had to be filled with imported sand. Much of the "sand" in the middle east is more like fine dust. It's nasty. It gets everywhere. It leaks right out through the mesh of MilSpec sandbags like water through a sieve. We had truckloads of sand coming in from Who Knows Where when I was there in '91.

    1. It's guaranteed that at some point the wrong tags will be delivered to the manufacturer
    2. Bureaucrats are incapable of believing that the system can ever fail
    3. Lower echelons do what they are told without thinking.
    When the mines get labeled as missiles, the mechanics will just have to try and make them fit under the wings or get charged with insubordination. I don't care what it looks like, soldier, the tag says it's a missile.....
    • Okay, we've established that you've never been in the military.
    • When the mines get labeled as missiles, the mechanics will just have to try and make them fit under the wings or get charged with insubordination. I don't care what it looks like, soldier, the tag says it's a missile.....

      There is a reason that we train our troops, y'know.

      At the end-chain for any critical supply, such as mines, missles, or specific bullets, there will probably be a manual confirmation--probably at a few points along the supply chain, too.

      Remember: the military has been messing up their m
  • s/grit/grits/
  • I think that the US Military needs to concentrate on identifying planes and tanks. Our friendly fire rate is terrible for as long as IFF has been out. Friendly Fire Insight http://www.msnbc.com/news/889594.asp?cp1=1 IFF Insight http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/air craft/systems/iff.htm
  • Anyone here who's experienced the Army supply line can tell you this could be very useful. Right now most things are barcoded, but that still takes time. The Army needs fast, efficient inventory control as much as Wal-Mart does.
    • I used to work as a military logistician, and we were doing this all the way back in 1995 during the Haiti intervention and the refugee crisis at Guantanemo Bay.

      The Army recongnized the need for RFID all the back in 1990-1991 in Desert Sheild/Desert Storm. Back then they were sitting on thousands of 20 foot and 40 foot shipping containers in Saudi Arabia. But the paperwork was so bad that they couldn't tell what was inside the containers and the database system they used to keep track of shipments was a 19
  • by Animats ( 122034 ) on Sunday October 26, 2003 @12:58PM (#7313941) Homepage
    The US military has been using a barcode inventory system for years. This is just an upgrade.

    It helps solve a real problem. It's not at all uncommon for deployed units to have to unpack shipping containers just to find out what's inside. Huge hassle for everybody.

    There's a constant struggle between the shipping people, who want to fill up every container, and the field logistics people, who want containers to be "single-consignee", so they go opened to the receiving unit. In the civilian world, containers are delivered to warehouses where "bulk-break" and sorting take place. (Visit any major UPS or FedEx location to see such a place.) The military has to do that under field conditions.

  • There goes making a deal with the supply sergeant after losing some gear.
  • by Mortanius ( 225192 ) on Sunday October 26, 2003 @01:56PM (#7314167) Homepage
    But think of what we're doing to the soldiers' privacy! Sure, now it's just RFID tags on the crates, but next it'll be RFID tags on every M-16, Stinger missile launcher, and grenade! The government will be able to track each individual soldier and know what they're doing with these weapons! They might even sell this information to third-party arms manufacturers for 'marketing research!'
  • ...it sre will make it easy to local land mines!

THEGODDESSOFTHENETHASTWISTINGFINGERSANDHERVOICEISLIKEAJAVELININTHENIGHTDUDE

Working...