Defense Department Drafts RFID Policy 156
Bob Wehadababyitsaboy writes "According to CNET News, the Department of Defense has announced its new policy of requiring all suppliers to use RFID chips in all goods supplied to the military by 2005, except on bulk commodities such as sand, grit or liquids. It claims that this move will help them streamline inventory and delivery of vital supplies around the world."
Dammit... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Dammit... (Score:5, Funny)
The attitude "The computer said so, so it must be right" is always amusing to the people who program them.
Re:Dammit... (Score:2, Funny)
Better yet, reprogram the computer so it says "MRE, over the best before date". When it's capable to move on its own, you better get rid of it. - When it makes the ground shake slightly when moving, better get rid of it QUICKLY! - "Here, let me help you... "
Cheers, Ulli
Re:Dammit... (Score:2)
Re:Dammit... (Score:2)
And somewhere out there will be a Third World dictator screaming in frustration when his black market "surplus" tanks come in little packages labeled "Beefsteak w/Mushrooms", "Chili and Macaroni", ...
I feel safer already... (Score:2, Informative)
Scan, scan, scan... Check one box. Scan, scan, scan. Mistakes aren't noticed for months.
SGT: Quick Private, Go get a box a gas masks for those civilians
PRVT: Hey, this box is just full of baked beans
Re:I feel safer already... (Score:2, Funny)
SGT: Quick Private, Go get a box a gas masks for those civilians
PRVT: Hey, this box is just full of baked beans
SGT: Close enough for government work!
Re:I feel safer already... (Score:1)
Prediction... (Score:4, Insightful)
High-Powered Aircraft-Based RFID Transmitters
with Super-Sensitive Receivers...
The Easiest Way to Count Your Enemy's Resources
(Or are all these RFID's only in the packaging,
or only with the items they label until
they have been checked-in the first time?
And DoS attacks too (Score:4, Interesting)
By the way, there's no need for the sledgehammer aircraft-based transmitter approach. I would expect inventory snooping to be done by dropping small scanners into delivery trucks or air vents, or getting them positioned properly by the most powerful weapon, namely insider help, either voluntary or under duress.
Even worse, this is not just an inventory issue. Once RFID tags are accepted, live hardware will employ them, and the potential problems then hit another dimension altogether.
Re:And DoS attacks too (Score:3, Insightful)
When the DoD is done with this, it will no longer be cheap or simple, but it WILL be hard.
Re:And DoS attacks too (Score:1, Informative)
Much more worring is the possibilty of enemy troups scanning for RFID tags. Sure, there's range issues -- it would work both ways, and you get more warning on one end then the other, but it's still worrying.
Of course,
Re:And DoS attacks too (Score:2)
Remember that the inventory system, by this time, is going to be completely dependant on RFID tags. This allows attacks on 3 areas:
Re:And DoS attacks too (Score:2)
Take out the comm links, or the GPS receivers, and our efficient, powerful armed forces turn into mobs.
Re:And DoS attacks too (Score:1)
Sorry, but burning out the tag on a box of bullets doesn't mean the bullets won't shoot people just as dead. And whose to say they won't keep barcodes around as an option?
Re:Prediction... (Score:1)
devices near the gate of a military base one can
easily keep track of everything moving in and out.
It is possible to make more soficiticated devices
with encryption of some sort, a chap method or
syncronized clocks. It is probably possible to
make these devices moderatly secure, or even
very secure. I don't see this being done.
One would think the military whould find this type
of security important. Yet the militarty keeps showing just how stupid large orgenizations
Re:Prediction... (Score:2)
Not at all - see, RFID tags work by responding to a transmission. You would have to have a transmitter close by a military base constantly transmitting. How long do you think that will last?
Re:Prediction... (Score:2)
No need. Just find a transmitter near the camp entrance and put up a purely passive reciever. The 'official' transmitter will activate the tags. All you have to do is read their responses.
Re:Prediction... (Score:2)
I seriously doubt they'll be doing RFID tracking right at the front gate, if for no other reason than the very one you mention.
Re:Prediction... (Score:3, Insightful)
Smart Anti-personnel Mines (Score:1, Interesting)
Of course when the military brass catches on that these could be programmed to trigger off of the rfids on commissioned officers insignia bought at the PX (smart fragging) this whole rfid idea will be history.
Re:Prediction... (Score:5, Funny)
Private: No, SIR. But there's a pair of boots, a combat jacket and a rifle hiding behind that tree.....
Re:Prediction... (Score:1)
Re:Prediction... AND: (Score:1)
I very much hope they have powerful directed scanners to make sure this electronic trash is stripped off before sending anybody out in harm's way, or where an ECM like the what you or others suggested is used against them.
Face it (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Face it (Score:1)
I mean hell you can see their effects in everything, flight, navigational, medicine, batteries, so guess what by like who knows 2010 RFID will be in everything (not that it took the military to do this) but it will just reinforce this drive.
Re:Face it (Score:2)
Geez, I thought I'd be the last person in the world to say this, but the military has occasionally introduced some good, positive technology.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Face it-Benifits. (Score:2)
Will they? As someone only half-facetiously pointed out above, switching the tags could easily go unnoticed. Especially when you scan, say, a truckload of grenades or something. Once some unscrupulous person figures out how to lift the tags what's to stop them from passing off a truck filled with 1000 grenades as a truck full of 1200?
Re:Face it-Benifits. (Score:1)
It's quite easy to attach a tag to a box in a manner that make's it's removal painfully obvious. A good example is the Shockwatch monitors (a small vial filled with sand) on the side of high dollar equipment shipping containers - they're attached with an adhesive that's almost impossible to remove without damaging the box. RFID tags could be similarly attached.
big deal (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:cost? (Score:1)
Figure a box of screws costs 10 cents, now they need a 5 cent tag, so the DOD pays 15 cents for the same parts.
The contractors that supply the parts are the ones that will be passing on the costs to the gov.
Re:cost? (Score:2)
Re:cost? (Score:1)
RFID mines (Score:4, Interesting)
Build a RFID detector into a mines, boobytraps etc. If your in RFID range your in the killzone
But to see RFID, the mine must emit a signal... (Score:3, Insightful)
It's simple physics. RFID signal must go both ways - from the mine to the RFID tag and back. The emissions from the boobytrap to a boobytrap detector are one way. You can detect the boobytrap before it can detect you. This is a well-known fact for counterdetection. E.g., you can detect a radar signal well-before the radar can see y
Re:But to see RFID, the mine must emit a signal... (Score:2, Interesting)
Mine is activated
Radar activated
Detects presence of authorized RFID
Mine Disarms
Re:But to see RFID, the mine must emit a signal... (Score:2)
At that point, an automatic mortar unit could just blanket the area.
When the war was over, the RFID 'mine' would be reporting back to a non-existent control center. This means that the next kid that tripped it wouldn't get turned into mixed body parts.
Re:But to see RFID, the mine must emit a signal... (Score:1)
Never ending counter measures (Score:1)
Re:RFID mines (Score:1)
Just say no to mines.
Re:RFID mines (Score:1)
Just say no to mines.
Hmmmm
With these two points in mind consider who is going to be using the mines and on whom. For bonus points, consider how likely the aggressor is to give up any class of weapons (gas, guns, mines, microb
Re:RFID mines (Score:2)
It would be cute if I was actally joking, huh...
Now get the CIA to do this! (Score:2)
Re:Yeah except (Score:1)
In some ways that is worse. An RFID detecting boobytrap/mine that specifically attacks the logistics chain. With a bit of intellegence work it could target specific equipment.... say fuel and explosives. No need to blow up the first truck that rolls over the mine, blow up the ammotruck thats third in line.
Thinking about it a little more,
Re:Yeah except (Score:2)
Um, just curious: exactly how is the mine going to know that ID #3141592345 is say, Cartridges, 50 cal and not Boots, size 10?
Re:Yeah except (Score:1)
With a bit of intellegence work. (Where have I seen that before....)
Nobody is saying it'll be easy to accomplish. But it would be possible to accomplish, and it's another avenue for the enemy to explore and posssibly exploit.
The big question here is, is it wise to provide that avenue to potential enemies?
Re:Yeah except (Score:1)
Re:Yeah except (Score:2)
Re:Yeah except (Score:1)
At the most basic level stick a RFID detector next to the road and read the numbers when an ammo lorry goes by, finding an ammo box and pointing an RFID detector at it, stealing an inventory list are other options. Once the numbers are know its going to be problematic (though not impossible) to change the numbers to a new permutation.
Re:Yeah except (Score:2)
The way that it's written I'd say that they're expecting to have RFID tags on everything from boots to bombers.
Things like bullets are where you'd have the tags on the boxes.
Re:What if RFID detection arms them? (Score:1)
Erm my suggestion is to put the RFID detector in the mine, if it detects (any/a specific) RFID code, the mine goes bang
Sluggish (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Sluggish (Score:1)
Drive by any AMC installation, you'll see little towers at the gate, those are the RFID towers.
All of USARPAC (hawaii/alaska/japan) has been the test site, they have the towers at each gate, and each supply warehouse door, so far it works pretty well.
Top funded things like this are much easier to field.
Not sure why, but army IT is horrible 10 years behind, they need to fire most of the signal command chain of command, luckly this is NOT being pushed by the IT side, but by
Re:Sluggish (Score:1)
Hmm... (Score:1)
Re:Hmm... (Score:1)
Re:Hmm... (Score:1)
Exceptions the rule... (Score:5, Funny)
Soldier: Hey these grits taste like sand!
Cook: Don't yell at me, we aint got those fancy smancy RFID tags in all our stuff so we can tell our shirts from our underwear!
Your sig... (Score:2)
"I only look human.
My mother is a hafling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling"
THAT had to hurt!
Bulk items (Score:2)
careful with the biscuits (Score:2)
They didn't mention biscuits as being excluded. Chew carefully on any "chocolate chips" or "hazelnuts".
WARNING! US Gov already mandates RFIDs in CARS (Score:3, Informative)
But worse RFIDs are in cars and readable from over twenty feet away:
TOP SECRET FACT:Most modern cars have tracking transponders!
Spy transmission chips embedded in tires that can be read REMOTELY while driving.
A secret initiative exists to track all funnel-points on interstates and US borders for car tire ID transponders (RFid chips embedded in the tire).
Yup. My brother works on them.
Your tires have a passive coil with 64 to 128 bit serial number emitter in them! (AIAG B-11 ADC v3.0) . A particular frequency energizes it enough so that a receiver can read its little ROM. A ROM which in essence is your GUID for your TIRE. Multiple tires do not confuse the readers. Its almost identical to all "FastPass" "SpeedPass" technologies you see on gasoline keychain dongles and commuter windshield sticker-chips. The US gov has secretly started using these chips to track people.
Its kind of like FBI "Taggants" in fertilizer and "Taggants" in Gasoline and Bullets, and Blackpowder. But these car tire transponder Ids are meant to actively track and trace movement of your car. FYI : Technical data on common explosives chemical fingerprint "taggants" from Princeton federal reports : http://www.wws.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/byteserv.prl/ ~ota/disk3/1980/8017/801705.PDF (slashcode sometimes inserts spaces into urls)
I am not making this up. Melt down a high end Firestone, or Bridgestone tire and go through the bits near the rim (sometimes at base of tread) and you will locate the transmitter (similar to 'grain of rice' pet ids and Mobile SpeedPass, but not as high tech as the tollbooth based units). Sokymat LOGI 160, and Sokymat LOGI 120 transponder buttons are just SOME of the transponders found in modern high end car tires. The AIAG B-11 Tire tracking standard is now implemented for all 3rd party transponder manufactures [covered below].
It is for QA and to prevent fraud and "car theft", but the US Customs service uses it in Canada to detect people who swap license plates on cars when doing a transport of contraband on a mule vehicle that normally has not logged enough hours across the border. The customs service and FBI do not yet talk about this, and are starting using it soon.
Photos of chips before molded into tires:
http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:TAQIKjBI01g C: www.sokymat.com/sp/applications/tireid.html
(slashdot ruins links, so you will have to remove the ASCII space it insertess usually into the url above to get to the shocking info and photos on the enbedded LOGI 160 chips that the us gov scans when you cross mexican and canadian borders.)
You never heard of it either because nobody moderates on slashdot anymore and this is probably +0 still. It has also never appeared in print before and is very secret.
Californias Fastpass is being upgraded to scan ALL responding car tires in future years upcoming. I-75 may get them next in rural funnel points in Ohio.
http://www.tadiran-telematics.com/products6.html
but the fact is... YOU PROBABLY ALREADY HAVE A RADIO TRANSPONDER not counting your digital cell phone which is routinely silently pulsed in CA bay area each rush hour morning unless turned off (consult Wired Magazine Expose article). Those data point pulses are used by NSA on occasions.
The us FBI with NRO/NSA blessings, has requested us gov make this tire scanning information as secret as the information regarding all us inkjet printers sold in usa in the last 3 years using "yellow" GUID barcode under dark ink regions to serialize printouts to thwart counterfeiting of 20 dollar bills. (30 to 40 percent of ALL California counterfeiting is done using cheap Epson inkjet printers, most purchased with credit cards foolishly). Luckily court dockets divulge the existence of the E
Re:WARNING! US Gov already mandates RFIDs in CARS (Score:4, Insightful)
So is your license plate! OH NO!
MOD PARENT UP (Score:2)
Re:WARNING! US Gov already mandates RFIDs in CARS (Score:2)
Re:WARNING! US Gov already mandates RFIDs in CARS (Score:2, Funny)
Perhaps we will finally perfect the underwear cameras this time, but I hope that we get the microchip in nasal spray working, personally. That way we can directly embed the chip in your brains.
Tin Foil hat wearing down ? (Score:2)
What on Earth are you on with your 'top secret' blabber ?
This topic has been passed by on Slashdot time and again
http://slashdot.org/search.pl?query=tyre%20tag s
And is getting about as
'Breaking' this technology isn't exactly hard (Score:2, Insightful)
It's not much of a secret government plot if
1) Everyone knows that it's possible
2) It can be foiled by changing your tires
Re:WARNING! US Gov already mandates RFIDs in CARS (Score:1)
Re:WARNING! US Gov already mandates RFIDs in CARS (Score:1, Funny)
Faulty presentation can obscure factual content (Score:1, Informative)
However...
The general attitude with which you present this information easily dominates the readers' perception of you *and* the information itself. Much of the post is somewhat incoherent, jumping between topics (related topics, but different nonetheless) and occasionally repeating facts. This creates an image o
We're on to you, CIA spook! (Score:1)
It's 2100 hours... (Score:1)
-tog
Good technology, but intelligent use is needed. (Score:4, Insightful)
As a mildly funny example, I'm pretty tired of the wholemeal pitta bread running out every day several hours before the white variety in our local supermarket. It's been happening for years, despite the perpetual roving hoards of clerks running up and down the isles with their little scanning machines. You'd think that better stock control would be used to help increase sales by ordering optimal amounts.
I bet you've all seen your own versions of this lack of a guiding intelligence in places, despite deployment of the latest technologies.
Re:Good technology, but intelligent use is needed. (Score:2)
Hot chips and radio interference (Score:2)
Re:Hot chips and radio interference (Score:1)
What was your point again?
The Register covered this the other day (Score:1)
I find that they tend to have an interesting take on things.
Sand, Grit, and Liquids (Score:2)
Of course, with IPv6, there's enough IP addresses for all those particles of sand and grit. Not sure about the liquids, though
-kgj
Please tell me... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Please tell me... (Score:2)
Re:Please tell me... (Score:4, Informative)
Dunno about Iraq, but the sandbags we had in Saudi/Kuwait had to be filled with imported sand. Much of the "sand" in the middle east is more like fine dust. It's nasty. It gets everywhere. It leaks right out through the mesh of MilSpec sandbags like water through a sieve. We had truckloads of sand coming in from Who Knows Where when I was there in '91.
Now combine three effects of bureaucracy... (Score:2)
Re:Now combine three effects of bureaucracy... (Score:2)
Re:Now combine three effects of bureaucracy... (Score:1)
There is a reason that we train our troops, y'know.
At the end-chain for any critical supply, such as mines, missles, or specific bullets, there will probably be a manual confirmation--probably at a few points along the supply chain, too.
Remember: the military has been messing up their m
Hey, wait!!! (Score:2)
Why focus on such small items? (Score:1)
Re:Why focus on such small items? (Score:3)
The Army supply line (Score:2)
Re:The Army supply line ... already doing it (Score:3, Informative)
The Army recongnized the need for RFID all the back in 1990-1991 in Desert Sheild/Desert Storm. Back then they were sitting on thousands of 20 foot and 40 foot shipping containers in Saudi Arabia. But the paperwork was so bad that they couldn't tell what was inside the containers and the database system they used to keep track of shipments was a 19
It's a real solution for a real problem (Score:3, Insightful)
It helps solve a real problem. It's not at all uncommon for deployed units to have to unpack shipping containers just to find out what's inside. Huge hassle for everybody.
There's a constant struggle between the shipping people, who want to fill up every container, and the field logistics people, who want containers to be "single-consignee", so they go opened to the receiving unit. In the civilian world, containers are delivered to warehouses where "bulk-break" and sorting take place. (Visit any major UPS or FedEx location to see such a place.) The military has to do that under field conditions.
that sucks (Score:2)
Infringing the Soldiers' Privacy! (Score:3, Funny)
One bright spot... (Score:2)
...it sre will make it easy to local land mines!
Re:One bright spot... (Score:2)
Er...that was supposed to be "locate". Brevity may be the soul of wit, but it hasn't done much for my spelling.
Re:Portman? (Score:1)
Re:Wery convenient for the adversary as well! (Score:2)
Re:Missile Defence.. (Score:2)
Hey! You're on to something there... Warheads could use one set of RFIDs and decoys another. Anti-ballistic missile defense systems wouldn't have to figure out fancy-schmancy ways of telling decoy warheads from dummy warheads. An interceptor would merely need to get close enough to read the warhead's RFID and decide if it is live or memorex, and destroy the correct RFID setup appropriately.