France: No Google Text Ads For Trademarked Words 470
ASN writes "Reuters reports that a French court barred Google from providing text ads with search results for trademarked terms, except those from the trademark owner (in this case, 'Bourse des vols,' potentially -- 'Microsoft,' 'Scientology'
even 'Linux').
According to Reuters, 'If it was upheld on appeal and validated in other countries the decision could force the search services to pre-screen search terms for trademarks before letting advertisers use them.' Google was fined 75,000 euros for the practice, and would have to pay 1,500 euro for each further infraction while appeal is underway (which
makes one wonder if Google is paying for this)."
Insanity! (Score:5, Interesting)
Trademarks? WHAT trademarks? This is ludicrous. If someone types in Ford, how is Google supposed to know if they're searching for Ford Motors, Gerald Ford, or informating on fording rivers? If I type in Windows, do they have to screen all ads not by Microsoft - even those for window cleaners?
Insanity. Trademark laws were a good idea, but they're now even more insane than copyright laws. The courts seem to have forgotten that trademarks have a limited scope based on area of business and geographical area.
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
Not quite, They just can't return ADVERTISING results with the trademark. For example, if I search for Linux, they can't return an advertised link that says something like "Linux Trounces Microsoft for TCO." This only applies to the paid advertising links that are returned at the top of the search or in the sidebar.
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
Perhaps they should temper that ruling with another ruling that says tradmarks can only be proper nouns, and may not be any other words.
Re:Insanity! Grocery Stores Also??? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
Re:Insanity! (Score:4, Insightful)
The idea is that Google should not allow other interested parties to use copyrighted expressions. E.g., Ford Motors can by a text link for Toyota Corolla and direct them to Ford Focus.
Whether it makes sense, I am not quite sure, but it is not a clearly ridiculous idea
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
Yeah, I understand, and that's what makes it rediculous. How do you determine who the trademark holder(s) are when I type in Ford? Suppose there's a guy named Ford who runs a small but growing car dealership in Nowhereland called "Ford's Cars", and wants to raise awareness of his company. So he buys a text ad for the keyword "Ford"... But he also sells only Toyota vehicles. (Or a car salesman named "Toyota" who sells only Fords)
This ruling would seem to ban him from doing this. Even though he, I believe,
Re:Insanity! (Score:3, Informative)
On the other hand, if someone named "Bob" opened up a Ford dealership named "Bobs Totally-Awesome Car World", I can see no reason that he shoul
Re:Insanity! (Score:4, Insightful)
In short, you don't. You simply ask the clients to whome you sell ads to indemnify you for all damages caused by their selection of search keywords. Or you charge all clients a little more to compensate for the risk.
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
Exactly. And you have to pull the ads if someone makes a complaint until the dispute is settled.
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
Good explanation. It makes you think though that the dispute would then be between Ford and Toyota, not Toyota and the medium that Ford used to place the questionable ad.
This court decision is going to force Google into becoming a watchdog.
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
If I have a site critizing, say, Verizon, I ought to be able to advertise that site using the name in a descriptive way. That's legal under normal fair use, and adding "on the internet" shouldn't change that.
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
I stand corrected. The right word to use was "trademark", of course.
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
Re:Insanity! (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, that's the French government for you - they're always passing laws regulating business without thinking through the consequences. For example, they thought limiting the work week to 35 hours would force more jobs to be created. And it would - if all workers were interchangeable. Unfortunately, in the real would (which no French government official has ever worked in) they're not. Or the laws that make it very difficult to fire a worker - they thought that would cut unemployment too. Only they didn't realize that part of the risk of hiring a worker is that he is incompetent or lazy - by making it so difficult to fire, they magnified that risk, and so companies were reluctant to hire!
Basically, until the French government keeps its bungling hands out of regulating things it doesn't understand, French unemployment will never drop into the single digits, and their economy will never pull out of recession.
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
Re:Insanity! (Score:3, Insightful)
Not Insanity, But Bad Ruling. (Rutabagas, Too) (Score:2)
Just another reason why I shoulda gone to law school
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
In any case, this now makes Google responsible for what the context of a "competitive context" is,
Re:Insanity! (Score:2)
Screw them. (Score:5, Interesting)
Google should dump Google.fr [google.fr] and continue doing what they're doing. That'll leave the French courts with no one to sue nationally and will be another nail in the coffin for French xenophobia.
Re:Screw them. (mod parent up) (Score:2)
Re:Screw them. (mod parent up) (Score:2)
Re:Screw them. (Score:2, Informative)
Would you agree about M$ paying for false *BSD ads on Google linking to their sites ? This ruling is all about that.
Re:Screw them. (Score:2)
This case has to do with people restricting which words you choose to use in your advertisements. If there is some useful (non-fraudulent) reason for you to mention someone else by trademark then that should be allowed as simple freedom of speech.
Sun should be able to drag Microsoft's name through the mud in their commercials so long as Sun doesn't engage in fraud.
Re:Screw them. (Score:2)
Or simply move physical hosting of their
Re:Screw them. (Score:2)
however keep in mind that trademark law is a *consumer protection* system. it's not made to protect giant corporations (though that's often how it's perceived): the point is to protect YOU, the little guy from companies who lie.
that way if you go into a "Ford Auto Dealership" and walk out with a "Ford F150 Truck," you know exactly who you are dealing with. Otherwise everyone could be se
"A, an, the?" (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: Copyright != Trademark (was: "A, an, the?") (Score:3, Informative)
Trademarks are to safeguard the reputation of an entity in their market segment. For example, there's several comments about Nissan in the thread. I can trademark Nissan as the name for my company as long as that company isn't in the same markets that the Nissan Motor Corporation is in. There's a Nissan food company that I don't believe is related to th
Re:"A, an, the?" (Score:5, Funny)
No, its French.
Re:"A, an, the?" (Score:2)
Did you mean in Seine?
Which Trademark Owner? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Which Trademark Owner? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Well sell cars from a particular manufacturer from a particular country, but we can't tell you which of either."
Please come in and buy one."
This isn't about protecting trademarks, this is about simply being able to advertise what you sell. Advertising that I sell Serta mattresses doesn't in any way delute the trademark.
KFG
Re:Which Trademark Owner? (Score:2)
Would it be possible for the copyright holder to prohibit you from using Google Ads? I can't think of a reason why they would offhand.....but lets say for some reason M$ or someone didn't want another company to sell their product, could they tell Google to turn the ads from that company off?
Re:Which Trademark Owner? (Score:2)
This is saying that I cannot put up a website talking about how much Ford Sucks, how unhealthy McDonalds is, and then advertise it on Google.
So much for free speach.
Re:Which Trademark Owner? (Score:2)
> for someone who is not the trademark holder to
> use the trademark for reviews or orther
> technical articles about the product.
Or even in advertising for a competing product. It is entirely legal in the US for Ford to run ads saying "Fords are better than Toyotas!".
> So much for free speech.
The case was in _France_.
Re:Which Trademark Owner? (Score:2)
You're getting your Pavlovian knee jerk reactions cross wired.
That's ok, I've been know to do it myself.
You might notice that in this particular case we have a private company trying to speak freely and a government telling them they can't.
Unless you're one of those that denies France is a sovreign nation?
KFG
And (Score:2)
And advertising that you sell mattresses that you think are better than Serta mattresses doesn't dilute the trademark either.
Welcome to the dark ages of information, pretty soon you will need permission to speak.
Re:Which Trademark Owner? (Score:2)
Even so, let's take a somewhat broader perspective and just stick to linking issues. In the "real world" the trademark holder in this particular case refers to as a model it is perfectly legitimate to link directory listing/ads for one product to recommendations for similar competeing products. I
Re:Which Trademark Owner? (Score:2, Interesting)
The answer is ANY trademark owner. For example, companies selling Ford automobiles, companies selling biographies of Gerald Ford, and companies such as "Ford Brand Baked Beans" would be able to buy ads on Google's "Ford" search results. However, any company that competes with a company with a trademark on "Ford" would not
Re:Which Trademark Owner? (Score:2)
And I'd hardly call what I see on nissan.com the "full story".
WTF?! (Score:2)
The magic words (Score:2)
Umbrello (Score:2)
"Umbrello Competes with Commercial Alternatives 14/10/2003
Poseidon and at least one other company have bought Umbrello as AdWords on Google. We would like to thank these companies for acknowledging that our Free Software competes with their proprietary and commercial offerings."
French court can't publish this ruling (Score:2)
Not clear to me (Score:2)
Reading the article, it seems to me that advertisers can't advertise on trademarked phrases like "bourse des vols" -- but they could still advertise on "bourse" and "vols" separately. And all the ads could have originated that way.
If so all Google would need to do was check from each advertiser that the phrase they're "buying" isn't the trademark of a competing product. (eg, someone buying "Ford" to advertise a biography of Gerald Ford needn't worry
Re:Not clear to me (Score:2)
Shouldn't the onus be on the Trademark holder to defend their trademark? e.g. if Apple records doesn't like Apple computer putting up the iPod site when people search for "Apple" then Google would be required to say "this is too close for us to call. We're taking out the text ad until we see a written agreement from both parties"
On the other hand, if searching for "Ford" brings up a Chevrolet text ad, big deal... as long as Ford doesn't say "Hey Google, that's our trademark and we don't want it used tha
Fortunately (Score:2)
This is a matter of explicit law. Restricting the use of even commercial speech by the inaccurate interpretation of trademark is in opposition to the guarantees of the First Amendment.
Re:Fortunately (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Fortunately (Score:2)
I wonder ... (Score:2)
Did you read the article before yelling insult ? (Score:3, Interesting)
Second what is with all this xenophobic spout I see thrown at the french ? First and formore US judge and politics are as able to make BIIIG way mistake as french one (COPA, DMCA, Patriot act and I pass many other there).
Second if you really do not wish to have any relationship with french , then buy ntohing from them, sell them nothing, do not even speak on them, ignroe them completly. Throwing xenophobic insult at them only show how "petty" and "arrogant" you are. Do really US peopel feel so insucre that they have to throw insult each possible moment at european in general and french in particular ? Tolerance serems a vain word in some people mouth [or writing].
So Please hold off the insult and discuss whether the trademark law are bad or not, or whether the judge really outstepped its power. Remmember, he did not judge whether internet was an althogether different medium, he did judge it as it was one of the old break and mortar medium [paper], and in France you DO NOT HAVE the right to use your competitor trade mark. (or at least so I remmember. This is why we do not have comparative publicity olike in US/UK).
A reasoned reply (Score:2)
Ok, I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but, not allowing the use of trademarks by competitors is really a bad idea. The US is wrong about USA PATRIOT and wrong to flaunt the UN, but, France is really wrong about this.
So there. Now we have two sets of stupid leaders.
Re:Did you read the article before yelling insult (Score:2)
Re:Did you read the article before yelling insult (Score:3, Insightful)
Suppose Company A owns and registers a trademark on their product named MegaSuperItem. If company B runs an advertisement saying "ImprovedNiftyItem -- twice as good as MegaSuperItem," who is traditionally at fault? I believe that Company B should be held liable, not the media that published the advertisement.
There is also, as many other people have commented, the fact that trademarks pertain to a specific market or field. The Internet encompasses
Because they are doing buisness in france (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Because they are doing buisness in france (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Because they are doing buisness in france (Score:2)
This is about AdWords, not search results (Score:5, Interesting)
France regulates advertising quite differently from other expression. TV commercials require advance approval. Sexy ads are fine. (Although, since 2001, sexual domination and violence in ads has been restricted.) But there are many other restrictions. If an advertiser claims their product is "better", they have to be able to prove it in court or face criminal penalties. Here's the official FAQ on advertising in France. [bvp.org]
Under US law, AdWords are clearly "commercial speech" when they lead to a product, The FTC could regulate them.
Google can live with this; they just need to require AdWords purchasers to certify that they're not infringing a trademark.
Re:This is about AdWords, not search results (Score:2)
Now my commercial claims that my product (the super-duper wizbang thingamajigger) is better than a competing product made by Dave Inc.
Dave Inc sues over this advertisement. Who can they sue? Adam Inc? Bob's House of Advertising, or CNN?
Logicaly the target would be Adam Inc or Bob's House of Advertising or both... it would seem
It isn't even technically feasible (Score:3, Insightful)
It is feisable (Score:2)
(a) create legal verbage that you have to clock "I am not violating anyones trademark" when you submit an AdWord;
(b) when an adword is submitted, have your staff do a quick "check" to see if it is not an obvious violation of trademark (ie, allowing a site about presidents but not GM to put up adword for "Ford")
By taking proactive
Re:It isn't even technically feasible (Score:2)
'E' (Score:2)
This sentence alone would cost me $0.25
How is this Google's fault? (Score:2)
Re:How is this Google's fault? (Score:3, Insightful)
It might not even be a competitor. For example, Fry's in the US sells Microsoft Windows. They're entirely within their rights to use the term "Microsoft Windows" in their ads to identify what they're selling, even though they don't hold the trademark on "Microsoft Windows". Buying a text ad keyed on that term would, IMHO, fall well within that same allowance.
What about Froogle? (Score:2)
More importantly, how will this effect Froogle? A generic search engine provide by Google tuned for finding stuff to buy. How does French law work with this?
So what? (Score:2)
What are they going to do about it?
Cutting of your nose to spite your face (Score:4, Insightful)
As an example, I recently bought a Kawasaki motorcycle. It's a great bike, but there are some extra things I want, and so I went to google and searched for Kawasaki aftermarket parts. Now, every one of the advertisers was using the Kawasaki name, but without a healthy aftermarket presence, Kawasaki would sell a heck of a lot less of their product -- people are a whole lot more willing to buy a motorcycle if they know they can get performance parts for the bike without doing a whole lot of digging.
Even more simply, what if someone is using their name to say that their company is retailing the products of the trademark holder? Then they'd be cutting into their own visibility in the market place, and lowering their own sales.
It seems to me that this is not the most intellegent move on the part of the trademark holder. If you protect your trademark so passionately that you hurt your own product sales, what the hell was the trademark for in the first place?
Ad content not search content. (Score:2)
An example would be SCO placing an add with Google that included "Red Hat" "IBM" "Linux" and other Linux related trademarks.
An ad like this would come up when a user Google for any car company. In a cense this is using someone else's trademark to create confusion.
Re: (Score:2)
What about SiteFinder? (Score:2)
Please prove that I'm wrong saying this.
This is ridiculous... (Score:2)
By god, because Google's Text Ads are so pervasive and they serve so much to dillute a trademark, the same p
I'm confused... (Score:2)
Its subtle, but I can see where the latter could be a trademark infringment. It is taking advantage of the brand recognition, and by only having the name could imply that its a link to Starbucks. That's kind of analogous to opening up a 12-pack labelled Coca-cola and finding 12 cans of Pepsi ins
Hopefully this is just against Google.fr (Score:2)
Instead of stopping other ads for the trade maked word, they should add another box right above it reserved for trademark holders. Otherwise this amounts to forcing google to reserve advertising space for the trademark holder.
If they are forced to comply, Google should keep with their clear and well labeled design and do something like this for their right side...
Re:Hopefully this is just against Google.fr (Score:2)
I start a new fast company that makes great products, I want to take customers from my competitors. To do that they have to know I exist. They have all the market share, no one is going to search for my company. Even google is going to put them on the top of the list since everyone will link to TH
Same owner? (Score:2)
There's a business plan for you... (Score:2)
In other news... (Score:2, Funny)
I have some sympathy for the ruling... (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't see why (Score:2)
As long as they don't misrepresent goods as being identified by the trademark, it is the intent and the purpose of trademarks that anybody can use the trademark to refer to all aspects of a product, good and bad.
So, if I have had a bad experience with "Product X", I should be able to use the trademarked term "Product X" in public statements saying "I didn't like Product X, buy Product
Sewing what they reap (Score:2, Interesting)
This might be down-modded by Google-fanboys, but it needs to be said: Google has had something like this coming.
As a customer both of Google AdSense [google.com] and Google AdWords [google.com], I have been victim of many of Google's own anti-competitive and censorship policies.
First, if your webpage contains keywords like "war" or "suicide" (as any news page will sometimes) Google will not serve your site paying ads but will serve you Public Service Announcements (PSAs) about saving Gorillas and stuff like that. By Google's own
Block France (Score:3, Insightful)
Sue those who placed the ad, not the media (Score:4, Insightful)
If I were google.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:If I were google.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Eh (Score:2)
Brilliant fucking strategy! Why hasn't anyone else thought of this? I'm with HR for Google, and I'd like to hire you immediately. Can you start this afternoon?
Re:Enforcement authority? (Score:2)
Re:Just Goes to Show (Score:2)
Re:France? (Score:2)
The other major reason is that there was uncensored news footage coming out of the combat zones, which hasn't happened since and will never happen in the future if our military has anything to say abouti it.
Re:France? (Score:2)
The other side was being supplied by a country we were not willing to face directly.
Re:France is insane... (Score:2)
Re:No google for France (Score:2)
To say that Google should give up a market the size of France over some trademark dispute is analogous to suggesting that McDonalds should withdraw from the US after being sucessfully sued for selling hot coffee.
Re:Stupid quote from the plaintiff (Score:2)