Phone or Tracking Device? 397
Red Wolf writes "The first major commercial service that traces people's locations using their mobile phones -- mapAmobile -- is designed more to ease the minds of worried parents and suspicious bosses than to enable unauthorised spying."
In the name of security (Score:5, Insightful)
That's how it always starts. As more and more companies use it, and when corporations finally control it, those safeguards will slowly be peeled away in the name of security and efficiency - by then it will be so common that most of us probably won't even notice the loss of privacy at all, and others will even encourage it in order to help catch criminals.
FP
This is why... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:In the name of security (Score:3, Funny)
Re:In the name of security (Score:3, Funny)
As for the psycho ex-girlfriends...they show up in the access_log of my Apache server all the time.
Sorry.. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a no-brainer.
A not so hypthetical situation (Score:3, Interesting)
The biggest question I have, is can you get a report for where the phone HAS been, not where it is. Can you get information going back say 24 or 48 hours? If you can't now, I'll bet you will be abl
State Laws (Score:3, Informative)
State legislatures also have the power to set Statutory standards for law enforcement access to location data.
You're not being paranoid enough (Score:3, Interesting)
Jason
ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]
Re:You're not being paranoid enough (Score:2, Funny)
Re:You're not being paranoid enough (Score:5, Funny)
Re:You're not being paranoid enough (Score:3, Insightful)
I know my phone "checks in" with the network from time to time. It makes the screen on my computer go a little wobbly whenever I get a call, and it does it randomly from time to time.
Re:In the name of security (Score:3, Funny)
no thanks... (Score:5, Informative)
People play a game where you "kill" a nearby person after you locate them using your cell phone equipped with GPS. Just what I want, ANYONE to be able to locate me on the street (opt-in service or not isn't my point).
The first major wave of location services could beam to the U.S. as early as Christmas, when 44 percent of the nation's 149.2 million cellphone subscribers are expected to be traceable, according to the research firm In-Stat/MDR.
No thanks, I would prefer to die after placing a call to 911 rather than have whoever decide that they want to track me via GPS/triangulation.
Live free or die.
Just my worthless
Re:no thanks... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:no thanks... (Score:3, Insightful)
Theres nothing anonymous about cell technology, there never was, and never will be.
It's idiotic to think so. You can trace a land line, whats special about a cell phone?
Frankly I dont give a rats ass if you die on the side of the road after calling 911. I'm more worried about the people in the other car, who aren't nearly as paranoid and delusional as you are.
Re:no thanks... (Score:5, Insightful)
Old school triangulation was an effort that took quite a bit of time and wasn't something that was used all the time.
I don't need my cell phone being equipped with GPS and having them beam localized advertisements to my exact location (I am standing outside McDonalds in downtown Place X) and BAM, a text message that says "Eat Rotton Ronnies Today!"
How about I leave the house and drive down the road at 91mph because I feel like it and the police track me going 91, wait for me ahead, and pull me over?
That's what I am worried about.
Re:no thanks... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's what I am worried about.
God, I'm not worried about that. You might as well bitch about radar detectors. (Speed Limits, while a tad bit low, are a good idea. You going at 91 anywhere but a nearly-empty highway is reckless endangerment--and in NYS, it'll [rightly] get you tossed in jail.)
Anyway...
If you're going to worry about tracking, worry about inaccuracy and corruption. Worry about psychotic ex-boyfriends hacking the system and coming after you. Worry about being politically opporessed. And after you worry, figure out an effective check on the darn thing. (A local log of who pings for your location would solve the first; standard checks against corruption would help against the second.)
Re:no thanks... (Score:2)
You are obviously trolling now but I will bite... RADAR *GUNS* have nothing to do w/this. They are not able to instantaneously track EVERY single person driving with a RADAR gun. In fact, they are lucky to get 1 or 2 people out of a massive gro
Re:no thanks... (Score:3, Insightful)
No thanks. As I said, there are plenty of worrisome things about it making easier to track people. I just don't think "I might get caught speeding" is a persuasive argument.
"Accidentally hit 56mph in a 55 yesterday? Your $130 fine will be in the mail."
The example was 91. But for the sake of argument lets say the police put up photo-radar all over the place, so if you ever went even one mph over the limit (note that word: "limit") you got
Re:no thanks... (Score:2, Interesting)
Dont want anyone to know you went to City X? Then dont take your cell phone to City X, or dont use it when you're in City X.
Noones tracking you, they're tracking the phone. If its the bosses phone, he has every right to know where it is. If he doesnt want you taking his phone to City X, then thats up to him. If you dont like your boss and his rules, quit and find another job.
People hear the suggestions of responsibility, and immediately start w
Re:no thanks... (Score:2)
You can trace a land line, whats special about a cell phone?
A land line is tracable only to a location. Many land lines, such as household or business phones, are used by multiple people. Also there are still pay phones, which by definition are used by multiple people.
Cell phones, on the other hand, are frequently used by only one person. They are also carried on that person or very near to that person at all times. By
GPS jammer (Score:4, Informative)
Solutions (Score:3, Interesting)
For cellphone users: There's a big button the phone called "off." As long as you're not expecting a call, you can just turn the damn thing back on when you need to dial out. If you're still paranoid, yank the battery or get a lead-lined case
Re:Solutions (Score:3, Informative)
Turning off the phone doesn't do any good if there is a battery buried inside the casing keeping the tracking unit going....
Unauthorized spying? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Unauthorized spying? (Score:2, Interesting)
"Unauthorized Spying" : Spying or other surveliance upon an individual or target without legal authorization to do so.
Seems to me that a suspicious boss can have "legal authorization" to find out where their employees are. Espeically if the boss is giving the cell phone.
Re:Unauthorized spying? (Score:2, Interesting)
"Unauthorized Spying": Survelliance without prior explicit or implied consent of the surveilled.
Obviouslly the OP had your definition in mind; my point was merely that employee surveillance is generally obnoxious (with exceptions) even at the corporate level, as are drug tests (for most professions), email monitoring, etc.
Re:Unauthorized spying? (Score:2)
ACK.
Why was the poster of the story so easily deceived by the company's advertisement and differentiated between "suspicious bosses" and "unauthorized spying".
Brain-wash at work.
Re:Unauthorized spying? (Score:4, Insightful)
While the first part of the statement makes sense, the second -- for most occupations -- makes none at all. What imperative -- moral, legal or otherwise -- does an employer have to monitor my behaviour, location, eating habits, bowel movements or anything else while I'm not on company time? Can a project manager come over and raid my refrigerator? Kick my dog? Can the CEO drop by and have sex with my wife?
Employment does not, and should not equate with ownership of the employed. An employer pays for a limited subset of time and skills of any worker, and is due nothing more.
Re:Unauthorized spying? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not in the states... (Score:2)
Re:Not in the states... (Score:2)
Not to be confused with Sickle Cell.
Already in the states...for free (Score:2)
Worse than Orwellian!! (Score:5, Interesting)
<paraphrase>
This device isn't really for spying, it's more to allow parents to spy
on their children, and employers to spy on their employees.
</paraphrase>
They of course fail to mention that if the technology were available, a judge
could easily grant a warrant to allow authorities to observe your
movements without notifying you.
In many ways this is worse than Orwellian, because at least in
Orwell's vision, you could still hide from the cameras or escape to
places that didn't have cameras on them. With this device if you had
it on (assuming it works as well as they claim (doubtful)) they could
pinpoint your location all the time. I guess you could just leave it
in your office while you went to play that round of golf and say you
were in a meeting.
Still this technology is simply a herald of more instrusive technology
to come. Move over Orwell, the future may be worse than you imagined.
As someone said in an earlier story, doubleplusungood.
Re:Worse than Orwellian!! (Score:2, Insightful)
sigh...why is it that the RIAA ought to embrace filesharing as a technological inevitability, yet we should somehow stem the tide of technological innovation in other areas? Just get used to it: technology will move forward, always, in directions you may like, in directions you may dislike, and in directions you could never imagine
Watch your children well... (Score:2)
This device isn't really for spying, it's more to allow parents to spy
on their children,....
Spy well, dear parents, for your children will be the ones taking care of you in your twilight years....
Re:Worse than Orwellian!! (Score:2)
No idea if the service was actually used that way.
Re:Worse than Orwellian!! (Score:3, Informative)
Firstly this has been available for over 6 months and it works. Secondly the facility has to be enabled on the phone, and disabling is no more complex than a menu selection. Thirdly any cellular telephone
enough with the orwell (Score:2)
Cops don't *need* a warrant to observe you. Not even without this. There's never been any sort of protection against observing people.
I don't like the idea of a tracking device much, but for Chrissakes we can do without the damned 1984 bit every time.
Btw, if that was a troll, great job!
Re:Worse than Orwellian!! (Score:2)
If you treat people like they're a problem waiting to happen or you expect them to be misbehaving, then they'll act like they a misbehaving problem. Honestly I think things like this create more problems than they solve.
Re:Worse than Orwellian!! (Score:5, Insightful)
You've never read the mans work, obviously."
I suspect that you are just trolling, but I'll bite.
I find it odd that you would make this claim. One of the major themes in 1984 was that the government knew your location at all times, clearly there were others (i.e. continual propaganda, one minute of hate, perpetual war, thought control, revisionist history, and prohibition against individual expression) however Orwell was vigorously against the idea that the government would know where you were at all times and what you were doing. To say that creating and proliferating a technology that will allow continual and near instantaneous tracking of people isn't Orwellian is to show a deeply misguided understanding of Orwell's work. He clearly expresses this thought when Winston finds the bedroom over the shop in the Prole quarters. He goes on at great length about the freedom that Winston feels being away from the search eyes of the government.
It isn't so much that I'm against the natural advance in technology or even against the government using that technology to catch criminals. Rather I think that each technological advance gives the government greater and greater control and power in our lives. As their power expands, the transparency of the process to ordinary citizens must increase (which it is not), otherwise I believe we will ultimately end up enslaved.
Thomas Jefferson once said something to the effect that "Government is like fire, a great servant, but a fearful master." Words to ponder if you care at all about your freedom.
Spying? (Score:2)
Except that it still can be used for spying!
Options... (Score:5, Insightful)
Or a novel idea, turn the phone off!.
Re:Options... (Score:2, Informative)
The mobile you are locating needs to be switched on and within network coverage
How novel!
New Samsung phones (Score:2)
Settings -> Location -> On/Off
Notice (as shown in the display):
Re:Options... (Score:2)
This may sound easier than it seems. The boss/your wife/... may ask you later:
Why have you switched off your phone at that time?!
Do you have anything to hide??
And if a phone doesn't support switchting of the location-service you have to explain it, because they may have called you and not tracked you down. (At least, they could say that).
Social pressure may build up to use such a "service".
Re:Options... (Score:2)
Re:Options... (Score:2)
For infrastructure-based systems, if the phone is on, it can be tracked. How the phone company chooses to safeguard the information is the real issue. It's possible to decouple the identity from the data for purposes doing things like traffic probes.
The infrastructure-based systems use either the arrival times to each antenna (which requires VERY good time syncronization) or they calculate the angle of arrival to a set of antennas. It is also
Hmm, I think I'll use it. (Score:2, Funny)
SIM Card tracking? (Score:4, Interesting)
Home wreckers (Score:2)
Re:Home wreckers (Score:2)
OK it's opt in sorta (Score:2)
Used recently by European Law (Score:2)
Riiight... (Score:5, Interesting)
And Kazaa is really just designed to transfer information back and forth. It's not Sharman Network's fault that it gets used to infringe on an incredible number of copyrights.
Let's face it, just because it was designed to ease parents and bosses, that's no guarantee whatsoever that they will not be used to violate one's civil liberties. RFIDs are designed to help stores keep inventory and make checkouts easier, but they can be easily abused to "see" what someone is wearing on his person.
We champion the right to use products in nonstandard ways all the time here at
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world.
A suspicious boss.. (Score:2)
Three cheers for self employment!
Re:A suspicious boss.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:A suspicious boss.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Not the first. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Not the first. (Score:2)
I looked into it as I also have an ATT GSM phone. Based on what I read it doesn't do the mapping thing, but gives you the closest intersection (which I guess would map nicely in MapQuest.)
I vote that which ever of us gets a friend first tries it out, lets the other know how well it works.
Problems with any third party systems... (Score:2, Interesting)
I can see benefits to this technology, since 911 operators will have an easier time dispatching emergency personnel, and it might even be useful for delivery dri
I would love (Score:5, Funny)
"Consent is required," of course, BUT (Score:5, Insightful)
'Consent because I'm your legal guardian and can consent on your behalf' and 'Consent or lose your job' don't really count as consent in my book.
The cellphone is becoming a tool for employers to squeeze away the last vestiges of a personal life for their employees. First is the expecation of being contactable at all hours, day or night, instantaneously (and thus the expectation that people will never be doing anything they can't be called away from). Now, they can't just contact you, they can find out where you are, at any moment, and without your knowledge.
And as for those of us living in the United States, you really think the Justice Dept. isn't going to press for access to this kind of thing -- with as little judicial safeguards as they can get away with?
Ugh.
All true, BUT (Score:2)
The other problem is when something becomes 'standard business practice' and even the non-jerky employers start doing it. For example, compensation for being called after hours. As a professional sysadmin having worked in the business for almost ten years, I have never, ever had a job in which I get
Agreed (Score:2)
Hmmm.... (Score:5, Funny)
Oh (Big) Brother (Score:2, Insightful)
1) You have the right to question the vendor of a product your buying and determine whether or not you want this.
2) No one is making this a standard it is a company doing what they want, so I don't see the big hoorah around this
3) It might actually come in handy considering if someone were kidnapped, this could be a possible method of determining their whereabouts.
Sure there are pros and cons behind thi
Remember TIVO (Score:2, Insightful)
Remember TIVO which now dishes key press information out to bidders at a zip code level - they could do something like that...
Terms and Conditions of Mapmobile (Score:2, Informative)
In a confusing definition, a Locatable Mobile Phone is defined as "a mobile telephone registered with the Service by a Locating User."
Do they mean Locatable User? If not, this seems to indicate that I add someone else's phone to the registry, then they are notified and have to give consent, and then I can locate them. This seems like an odd mechani
It was about a year ago (Score:2)
How do you disable the GPS chip in the phone? (Score:2)
Re:How do you disable the GPS chip in the phone? (Score:2)
Anyway, this technology is in effect so long as you're phone is turned on. Breaking any chips inside will give you a nice paperweight. If you don't want to be tracked, ditch your phone or turn it off.
Re:How do you disable the GPS chip in the phone? (Score:2)
What seems the bigger issue is the triangulation by cel tower, because that is possible entirely independent of any hacking you may do to the phone. It would only reveal your location when you use it, true. But the problem is, there is nothing you could do to prevent it, and you have only the good word of the company (o
There is no GPS (Score:4, Informative)
Another GSM feature is the "timing advance", which roughly indicates the distance of a mobile from its base station. It is necessary, because GSM is time multiplexed. A mobile is assigned a "time slot" for transmission. To avoid interference between mobiles that are far away from the base stations and those that are near, the far mobile sends its packet a little bit too early. It then travels a the speed that radio waves use to have and arrives dead-on its time slot. While "timing advance" is originally used only for this purpose, it obviously also is a good indication of where the mobile is.
The mobile knows all these values - each base station has a unique identifiyer, and the timing advance is measured every N seconds (which btw is the reason why GSM mobiles are spec'ed for travel speeds of 250km/h max).
The trace system basically "phones-home" this information, where the base station ID is looked up in a database to find out where the mobile is.
This is not new. Former Viag Interkom in Germany offered such a service, too. Once registered, you could look up the position of a mobile through an internet page. There's also a travel assistance service of D1 Telekom Germany, where you call in, hang up, the system traces your position, and sends a text message with traffic jam information etc (for your current position) to your mobile.
All these systems base on the same method of locating you, but are marketed differently.
But back on-topic: there is no GPS. As simple as that.
A parent's lament (Score:2)
Jr: Gee whiz, when we got to the park the payphone was busted.
...
Parent: Here is a mobile phone for you. Now you have no excuses.
...
Jr: The battery ran down.
...
Parent: I've just bought you an always on, methanol powered, auto-locating phone.
...
Jr: The dog ate it.
"unauthorized"? (Score:2)
Three words (Score:5, Insightful)
I keep my cell off a lot. Why? I use it for MY convienence... It's for me to make a call, not to be pestered when I'm in the car, at the mall, eating dinner, etc.
technology vs privacy (Score:2, Insightful)
I think that other technologies will come to mask the effects of this one, and thus balance and privacy will be restored.
I feel that the general tone that these are inherently bad for their potential to become aweful, but personally I would prefer for this to come to the publics attention rather then being used secretively without our knowledge
And this is new? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're worried about people tracking you by your cell phone, turn it off - and be aware that as soon as you come on the air to make a call, "they" will have a good idea where you are.
All this new service does is make that knowledge accessible to someone who's not monitoring cell sites inside the system. The addition of GPS in the phones makes it dramatically more accurate, but it's not really a new capability.
If you're worried about the Law tracking you down by your phone, then you should probably ditch the cell and go back to pay phones. Ditch the calling card too.
As for parents, if I give my kid a phone, and I care enough about her to wonder where she is, then tracking her with the cell (especially one I'm paying for) is my parental right. Parents are responsible for their kids. Part of that responsibility is having an idea whether they're out raising hell or really are over at their friend's studying like they said they were.
Bosses? Different matter and entirely situational. Company phone, company car, company time, the boss has the right to know whether or not I'm abusing my privilege. My phone? My time? Hell no.
Sure, they can track us with our phones. Big fat hairy deal. You don't want them to track you? Then don't carry a -transmitting- radio in your pocket!
Re:And this is new? (Score:2)
I whole-heartedly agree (I am not a parent, but I believe that parents should take an active part in their life long learning).
What I want
Re:And this is new? (Score:2)
Yes, sometimes we didn't go where we said we were going, and yes, we got in trouble when we got caught. I had a good balance oif trust with my folks.
Please note, I'm not advocating constantly tracking kids by phones, rfid, or radio tracking collars. I'm just pointing out that this is a potentially usef
Re:Newsflash for you.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, they do have rights. As do I. And one of my rights is to know where they are. To reiterate - as a parent you are responsible for your kid.
If a parent raises their kid right, they shouldn't need to worry about them doing crap they shouldn't be doing. If the trust is there, you don't need this capability. But having it isn't a bad thing. It's a mutual trust thing.
"I'm studying with my friend like I said I was. Besides, Dad can check up on me if he needs to."
"She said she
Not a real problem.... for now (Score:2)
this is possible anywhere.. (Score:2)
So paranoid are people..
Or for tracking parents (Score:2, Funny)
"Dammit don't drop the weed everywhere!"
"Next time look where you throw your bra"
T-Mobile has this already (Score:2)
This is already available in the US for free (Score:2)
In other news (Score:4, Funny)
Geoportal...Geobility... (Score:2)
Japan vs US/EU (Score:2, Informative)
Not that TechTV is enough to make me an expert on the subject, but they just did a piece on this for the "Wired for Sex" show. Seems the opportunities for meeting new people to date are extremely limited in the Japanese culture, which traditionally has been restricted to older relatives introducing youngsters, and of course further back they simply pre-arranged marriages.
make this info public (Score:2, Interesting)
Nice. Then let people pay to get hidden from general public.
yeah, but (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps a cheaper device, nothing more than a panic button that uses the cellphone system, would be a good alternative. It also wouldn't ring and alert your kidnapper that you have it. It wouldn't solve every situation, but I bet it'd be pretty useful in many.
Plus, it would be another product for the cellphone companies to make and sell service on. Get one for every member of your family! Not anywhere near as expensive as a cellphone, so more people could afford them, and they'd all need service, though, like 911, the service portion should be free. These should definitely not be anonymous, though, or the prank potential would be enormous. Plus, you'd want to know who to be looking for. Perhaps have your information (name, address, photo, etc.) at the phone company when you sign up for service, when the thing goes off, all that info is instantly routed to the cops.
My phone has it.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Old hat (Score:3, Interesting)
in the old world.
Over in Europe we've had services like this for at least two years.
Some just show your location based on the current base station you're connected to, and some are more sophisticated and uses some kind of triangulation (maybe based on what base stations you have been in contact with the last minutes? I don't know).
I've tried it a couple of times, and it's seems to be quite accurate give or take some fifty meters.
What's the big deal? (Score:4, Funny)
seen it (Score:5, Informative)
Coercive permission and court warrants would get around perfect security (if such a thing existed).
However, my point is that the infastructure is in place right now (in US) and implementation is easy.
Can't help but think... (Score:3, Interesting)
Just a thought...
Verizon?? (Score:3, Funny)
Good!
Re:Hacked? (Score:2, Funny)
solutions----problems (Score:2)