Big Brother Gets a Brain

Gregus writes "The Village Voice delves into the DARPA's latest plan to track people and vehicle movement in cities, ostensibly for urban warfare, though this would be really handy watching 'suspicious' people in any city. "The goal, according to a recent Pentagon presentation to defense contractors, is to 'track everything that moves.' " The actual DARPA RFP and briefings. I just feel more safe all the time."

UK Joke...

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, it's Jade Goody's

Re:UK Joke...

[min0r_threat]

For those not in the UK, the above comment is actually very funny. Feel free to laugh heartily and mod up, therefore conveying the image that a lot of UK people are reading this, and consequently making us feel more at home with the content!

Joking aside, being able to track vehicular activity is one thing, being able to identify the person or persons within that vehicle is an entriely different matter.

My brother is serving in Iraq now. Although the army is able to track all vehicles and pinpoint their movements, during the war they still attacked and killed people on their own side because they could not identify the people in those vehicles.

Only a minor detail but one which is pretty significant.

Re:UK Joke...

[Anonymous Coward]

"My brother is serving in Iraq now. Although the army is able to track all vehicles and pinpoint their movements, during the war they still attacked and killed people on their own side because they could not identify the people in those vehicles."

Or identify British equipment when placed against 20 year old Soviet and American military assets.

We should work out a system that cunningly uses flags of some description, although I suspect that the way to go would be drop special forces behind the lines to sp

tracking vehicle identity

[chimpo13]

They're already starting to track vehicle identity in Australia to give out speeding tickets.

Camera network set to catch Hume speedsters [theage.com.au]

The main paragraphs since no one on slashdot reads the articles are:

Ten cameras to be installed along the Hume Freeway soon will measure the average speed of cars over the entire 300-kilometre journey between Melbourne's northern fringe and Wodonga.

Drivers whose overall progress is faster than the speed limit allows will be fined. Drivers will also be caught if they are speeding as they pass a camera.

The company said yesterday the cameras combined digital imaging and optical character recognition to read vehicle number plates. The cameras would be networked and synchronised.

Its amazing

[Cackmobile]

How orwellian our world is becoming. He must have had a time machine or something. Seriously if you havn't read 1984 you really should. Everything is coming true!!

Re:Its amazing

[grennis]

Time machine? Nothing offensive happened in 1984 except big hair bands and parachute pants.

Re:Its amazing

[Cackmobile]

so he got the date wrong. maybe is 2024 or something.

Re:Its amazing

[WeeLad]

As long as they don't force me to do excercises every day. That's what scared me most about that book. I'll fight for my right to be lay on the couch eating nachos....as long as its not too much effort.

Re:Its amazing

[Rogerborg]

Hey, just do your Physical Jerks at night instead of in the morning. I find Jenna Jameson's [clubjenna.com], er, "workout videos" to be a great help.

Re:Its amazing

[vargul]

Everthing was already true when that book was written. It is only getting more and more apparent and obvious nowadays.

Re:Its amazing

[Rogerborg]

It's an astonishing book, but the basic premise is that constant war is a means of keeping resources scarce, purely in order to maintain class distinction. If the plebians get too rich and well educated, they'll start to question why they need a ruling class at all, and the ruling class would rather be comfortable in a land of poverty than revoltingly rich in a land of plenty. The whole Big Brother culture is just a consequence of that (from the need to cover up the futility of the war), not the cause.

While it's true that USKA burns up hundreds of billions of USD a year (possibly a trillion if you count the stuff that isn't counted) in moving guns, tanks and bombs around the world, the goal does seem to be global imperialism rather than domestic scarcity. Sure, plenty of people are starving, but our middle classes are fatter and happier in terms of consumer toys than even the Inner Party in 1984.

Then again, that's pretty much what Winston Smith believes until he reads the book, so what do I know? The goal might be different, but the methods seem largely the same; an eternal war that can't be won against a foe with a constantly changing face, surveillance of citizens in the name of this war, arrest and detainment without due process, parading and show trials of prisoners for propaganda value, WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH, the whole works.

But I still can't figure out what the goal is. If it's merely self preservation for the incumbent autocrats, then that's understandable but both disappointingly unimaginative and largely unncessary - 98% of US Congressional incumbents already get reelected, and hereditary ruling dynasties are now as accepted in the USA as in Airstrip One. What more do they want? What is the point of moving further towards a police state? Any ideas?

Re:Its amazing

[missing000]

The answer sadly is deeply embodied in a belief in controlling other people's moral behavior.
The dogma that comes hand in hand with most of the control freaks in Washington is that of ultra-conservatism, and the feeling of betrayal by the court system in terms of moral erosion.

These people are acting in a manner that is so close to that of the fundamentalist Muslim radicals they love to hate that it is simply amazing to me.

None the less, I believe their agenda and repressive actions will be short liv

Re:Its amazing

[Rogerborg]

Fair comment. Religious dogma is so alien to me that I find it hard to remember about it, even when the leaders of Oceana have prayer sessions before making important decisions. I'm not sure what's more worrying; that they think they hear answers, or that they actually hear answers.

Re:Its amazing

[Rogerborg]

Well, sure, but I can't figure out whether it's short term greed or mid term planning. The cynical part of me thinks that the Bush/Cheney dynasty just wants to secure oil and jobs for their families for the next five or ten years. The thoughtful part of me suspects that what they might - might - be doing is securing oil for their kids, or as part of some Great Christian Destiny plan.

It's no less reprehensible, but it's perhaps unfair to consider that Bush/Cheney/Blair are thinking with their brain stems

Re:Its amazing

[csguy314]

Oil isn't really the end here, it's the means. Control over oil sources grants the US control over others (which is the real end).
Think about this, the US has major sway of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and several other OPEC countries. The invasion of Iraq was justified through a series of lies, and the democratic control doesn't appear to be coming anytime soon (the US has just hand-picked 25 people for their civilian council).
Now that the US has control over Iraqi oil, it can express control of it's oil monopoly to stifle any opposition to it's global policies. So if China gets out of line, the US strangles their oil supply.
This is the same reason the US invaded Yugoslavia, and the same reason it maintains sanctions on Cuba, and cut off relations with Iran. Those countries are/were devoid of US influence. Milosovic did not allow US companies and influence into Yugoslavia, but Djindjic did (before he was killed) and his successor will as well.
The people of Cuba, and the people of Iran, threw the US out of their countries.
In fact the whole Iran-Contra scandal was an effort on the part of the US to strengthen the Iranian military in hopes of supporting a coup against the religious government. The US has a long history of working with military dictators because they are easily controlled with arms shipments and military support.

Re:Its amazing

[enjo13]

While I beleive that things aren't nearly as bleak as people seem to think (I'll expound on that in another post), it's interesting you bring up McCarthy.

Right now one of the primary voices of this ultra-conservative movement (Anne Coulter I beleive is her name) is spouting off about the VIRTUES of McCarthy. She see's him as one of the most admirable men (her words not mine) of the last century. It's interesting, that it seems in order to protect the 'integrity' of this neo conservative movement, they feel

Re:Its amazing

[Rogerborg]

What do you mean? Senator McCarthy did a great job protecting us from Muslim terrorists. We're at war with Muslim terrorists. We've always been at war with Muslim terrorists.

Re:Its amazing

[Rogerborg]

Um, further to my other reply, while we turned Prohibition around, we didn't manage to do anything about other recreational drugs, did we? We can roll them back three steps, but if they took four forward, that still leaves us one step closer to the sort of Nanny State that exists on Airstrip One.

Re:Its amazing

[Rogerborg]

> Well, to be fair, those drugs never have been legal per se, just a bit less criminal.

Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Unquestioning acceptance of the Party line? Plus good.

Read about the history of drug prohibition [mapinc.org]. It's come in piecemeal, and it's come because right thinking White Anglo Saxon Protestants want to protect niggers, chinks and spics from their own brutish, unevolved natures. If you think I'm trolling, read the link and read the quotes from eminent US statesmen.

The history of drug prohibition in the USA is a pretty repugnant one. Get back to me if and when we ever admit that, turn it around and legalize (not decriminalize) any of those drugs so beloved of Uncle Tom and his dusky skinned cohorts. We won't, because we'll always need to have a boogieman under the bed, smoking crack and planning to rape our white virgin daughters.

Re:Its amazing

[paganizer]

Woody Harrelson's movie "weed" is also a great source of info on the war on drugs; lots of archival footage, interviews with researchers, etc.
Funny as hell, also.

Re:Its amazing

[Rogerborg]

Another interesting lesson in 1984 is that when Winston is inducted into the (anti establishment) Brotherhood, it is made clear to him that this is a suicidal act. He will die because of it. His best hope is to kill himself rather than being taken alive. He will receive no rewards, little contact, no secret knowledge, and he will not see his efforts rewarded within his lifetime. He will just serve, and then die.

And Winston still leaps at the opportunity. He commits himself to carrying out any act to weaken the power of the Party, to kill innocents, to "throw sulphuric acid in a child's face" without question, merely at the behest of his Brotherhood contact. Winston has no hope. He is already resigned to a pointless death, possible for something he didn't do. This way he feels that he has some control over his life and his means of passing.

When I read this, I paused to admire the stark clarity of the message. People with no hope become irrational. You can't reason with them, you can't threaten them, you can't bargain with them.

Israel discovered this to its cost years ago. Kill a child's family, destroy his future, take away all hope, and you craft a weapon for your enemies to wield against you. Shower someone with hatred all their life, and the first person to show them love will control them. Oceana is only just beginning to find this out, but we seem to be in full denial about it right now. Empty rhetoric won't console the Afghan and Iraqi orphans we created. Yes, Saddam created more, but that won't console the ones that we created.

Sorry, got a bit off track there, just wanted to mention that 1984 is a salient lesson in how to create terrorists, or specifically their pawns.

Re:Its amazing

[Planesdragon]

People with no hope become irrational. You can't reason with them, you can't threaten them, you can't bargain with them.

I wouldn't call them irrational--heck, I cringe whenever I hear someone dismiss someone else a "irrational."

When you have nothing, doing anything that might advance your cause is rational.

Oddly enough, the best way to defeat terrorism is to solve the grievances of the terrorists. Why should the palestineans suffer because Europeans feel guilty about mistreating the Jews, for example? Creating a new palestinean state is the best way to end the Infantadia. An even better way would be a semi-secular, ethnicity-blind Israel.

As for Afghanistan and Iraq--the best way to console the orphans we create is to leave these countries far better off than when we got there. If we turn them from rebel enemies to full partners and close allies, we won't have Israel's problems, because the people we orphaned will have hope and a reason to play the game by our rules.

Terrorism isn't irrational--but expecting people to bagrain with you when they have nothing and you offer nothing is irrational.

Re:who's controlling whom?

[missing000]

Your arguments are almost completely based upon personal conviction, thus they are difficult to reason with.

However, I must take issue with you on this point:
For over 95% of the inhabitants of this planet, spiritual matters are a factor in life.

This is simply not true. According to Encarta [positiveatheism.org], non-believers comprise approximately 21 percent of the people on the planet.

Just because your broadly defined "organized religions" are a majority in a sense, does not indicate, to me or most others who valu

Re:Its amazing

[clary]

I can be paranoid as the next guy, but you might want to consider whether just maybe the goal is at least partly as stated, to put down the people who want to kill us. Two airplanes hitting the twin towers had nothing to do with doublethink.

Re:Its amazing

[isa-kuruption]

It's an astonishing book, but the basic premise is that constant war is a means of keeping resources scarce, purely in order to maintain class distinction.

Actually, in 1984, the government itself bombs it's own citizens as another way to brainwash them into believing that their "freedom" is in jeopardy from an outside force in order to disillusion from them seeing that it's the government is doing to oppressing.

While it's true that USKA burns up hundreds of billions of USD a year (possibly a trillion

Re:Its amazing

[Rogerborg]

1984 covers that. The disputed territories in 1984 cover most of Africa and some of Asia, and they are valuabel as a source of cheap labour, but only so that the domestic populations of Oceana, Eurasia and Eastasia can focus entirely on the war effort.

That said, while Orwell got a lot right, he called it wrong on Eurasia and Eastasia, and on the basis principle of using austerity to cover up inequality. We in Oceana have a rich, educated, fairly indolent population, but we haven't seen fit to cast down our super rich ruling class. Bread and circusses keep people quiet just as well as starvation and overt oppression.

Re:Its amazing

[Stiletto]

If you think the current U.S. "middle class" is rich and educated, you better take a closer look. Two parents each working 50 hours a week to pay off the mortgage and cars is NOT rich. Most of what in the U.S. is considered middle class lives to barely break even when you take into account personal consumer debt.

The U.S. middle class _IS_ the proletariat in 1984. They are oppressed and kept powerless not by a big brother-like watchful government (yet), but by the debt brought on by their consumption-based lifestyles.

I won't even get into the education level of the U.S. middle class. Look around you and draw your own conclusions.

Re:Its amazing

[Rogerborg]

We're playing compare and contrast with 1984, remember? Middle class Americans have cars, they have televisions and DVD players and computers and washing machines and (by and large) reliable electricity for them, have mortgages and detatched houses with basements and garages. Sure, they have to work to keep them, but that's still half way to Orwell's utopian alternative to war austerity. Outer Party 1984ians work 60+ hours a week, 90 if they are redacting large parts of history, for no reward, remember?

Heck, if you're on welfare in the USA, you've still got far, far more than 1984's proles. You have your own viewscreen, and it doesn't watch you (yet). You can eat more or less what you want in terms of fat, carbs and protein. You get more than 20 grams of chocolate a week, and you don't have to get your gin on the black market. Orwell's proles would be delighted to live in 2003 America.

As for education, the vast majority of the US middle class are literate and have a political education that goes (barely, but measurably) beyond simple indoctrination. Whether they retain that knowledge, or act on it, is largely a matter of choice, but they aren't denied the opportunity.

On the other hand, the US middle class are brainwashed with jingoistic flag-worshipping propaganda from an early age, and I'm not disagreeing with your premise that consumer debt is a millstone round most peoples' necks, but it's a millstone of their making. If you want to step out of the rat race and live on minimum wage or welfare, you're free to do so. Orwell's characters - proles and party both - don't have that luxury.

Relative wealth

[KludgeGrrl]

It's hard to measure Quality of Life, but before assuming that Americans are really well off consider the findings of the UN's Human Development Report [undp.org]. In particular look at how many Americans live below the median income [undp.org] (compared with other "developed" nations), or people living under (the equivalent of) $11US per day [undp.org]

One could go on about life expectancy, infant mortality, and other such "quality of life" stats... But you've got the relevant link [undp.org] and can look up these topics to your heart's content.

Re:Its amazing

[Zardoz44]

You could always bail out and move to Oceana. I hear they have mild winters. Seriously, its a big planet. If you don't like what's happening, there are plenty of places to go. There's always going to be hints of Orwell's 1984, but if you push the people to hard they'll push back. Or maybe not. Whatever. At least you'll have something to do, rewriting those newspapers. 100% employment.

Re:Its amazing

[Computer!]

"Oh, my privacy! My privacy!"

So, genius, how exactly do you expect to prevent terrorist attacks, and minimize friendly casualties in the event of an urban battle, yet still not preserve the "privacy" you expect when you're walking around outside? And why do you expect it again? You know you're outside, right?

I'm glad none of you jackoffs were around when the Census was proposed. The whining would have been deafening.

On the nose!

[Prince_Ali]

Slashdot says, "Real insight is double-plus ungood," so they keep modding up the exact same uninsightful and incorrect 1984 comment every single time it is made.

I knew it.

[flacco]

I pretty much guessed as much when the DMV in our state issued everyone new license plates. The primary difference was that the new kind are many times more reflective than the old ones, making them ideal for tracking via camera at lengthy distances.

Re:I knew it.

[RagManX]

many times more reflective than the old ones, making them ideal for tracking via camera at lengthy distances.

Nah, they don't need that. Somebody had to buy up all those RFIDs that WalMart cancelled [slashdot.org].

RagManX

Re:I knew it.

[Lord_Slepnir]

making them ideal for tracking via camera at lengthy distances.

Of course! It's not like they could be more reflective to make them easier to track via eye or anything. It MUST be big brother, right? Right?

If it bothers you that much, you can cover it up with some left over tin foil from your hat.

more visible?

[cascadingstylesheet]

I pretty much guessed as much when the DMV in our state issued everyone new license plates. The primary difference was that the new kind are many times more reflective than the old ones, making them ideal for tracking via camera at lengthy distances.

It couldn't be that a more reflective license plate makes your vehicle more visible, and thus less likely to be hit, could it?

That's why I voluntarily chose a highly reflective plate, when it became available.

Re:more visible?

[TopShelf]

Unless your car is painted some absurdly flat black, your taillights are broken, and you drive around on moonless nights, I highly doubt the license plate makes a significant difference in your visibility to other drivers...

Re:I knew it.

[paranode]

If anything it's so that they can bounce their laser guns more effectively off of your car, thereby writing you a ticket and increasing their revenue. Pigs...

True Goals

[Jonsey]

It's like Newtonian Physics to them.

They just want to know where we are, and what we're doing at all times, so that they can extrapolate what we will do next, and thus know the future.

I mean, it's not like this raises privacy concerns or anything

Mod Note: Funny, Insightful, Interesting... g'luck, I think it's all just measuring our cycnicism right now : )

Heisenberg

[worst_name_ever]

They just want to know where we are, and what we're doing at all times

Too bad for them, though, that keeping tabs on my position will cause them to lose track of my velocity...

Shades of Oz

[Matey-O]

If Darpa is getting a brain, Does that mean Hussein is getting a heart, and the part of Dorothy is being played by Bush Jr?

(And introducing Ret. Gen. Powell as Toto.)

Re:Shades of Oz

[CastrTroy]

No, I'd have to say that Bush Jr. is definitely the cowardly lion. Many people are afraid of him, and he has lots of power. But if anybody else tries to show their power, He'll scream bloody murder. (Think Dorothy slapping the lion on the nose)

Re:Shades of Oz

[Lord_Slepnir]

Let's just hope the rest of the world is the one getting courage (to stand up against us when we start to unilaterally throw our weight around)

Re:Shades of Oz

[Surak]

Along with Hillary Rodham Clinton reprising her role as the Wicked Witch of the West. And Pope John Paul II as the great Oz. "There's no place like Rome! There's no place like Rome!"

Re:Shades of Oz

[Captain Large Face]

Bush was also playing the part of the Scarecrow, but seems to have lost out to DARPA in the race to get a brain.

Gets a brain???

[jkrise]

You mean, like, he hadn't one till now? OMG!! it's terrifying to think what he'll do now, with the brain.

PS: Will there be a Service Pack as well?
-

Is it really a problem?

[jaavaaguru]

I'm not too bothered if someone is tracking where I go and where my car goes within a city. I still have the privacy of my own home, which is the only place I really had privacy in the first place, and I have the added benefit of knowing that if my car gets stolen, then someone is tracking it for me. My only worry about this is what happens if the data collected by the government falls into the wrong hands? If someone had enough information about you to know what places you went to on a regular basis, they'd have enough information to know when you're not at home (and therefore the best time to break in and steal things from your house).

I feel the same about the government or my ISP tracking what I do online. If someone know what sites I visit and who I chat to, I'm not really that bothered. If I want to talk PRIVATELY, I'll use an encrypted connection. I don't do anything illegal online (warez, stealing music, etc) so I've nothing to worry about.

Re:Is it really a problem?

[pubjames]

I'm not too bothered if someone is tracking where I go and where my car goes within a city.

You're obviously not married.

Re:Is it really a problem?

[YrWrstNtmr]

I have the added benefit of knowing that if my car gets stolen, then someone is tracking it for me.

If that is important to you, fine. Go out and buy an aftermarket system. LoJack or similar. Having the government do it for us opens up so many possibilities for abuse, it's not funny.

I don't do anything illegal online (warez, stealing music, etc) so I've nothing to worry about.

Doesn't have to be 'illegal'. Just something you'd rather not have be made public information.

Would you like for your insuran

Re:Is it really a problem?

[Surak]

I don't do anything illegal online (warez, stealing music, etc) so I've nothing to worry about.

Yet. You forgot the 'yet.' As in "I don't do anything illegal online, YET." Because one day something you actually DO online might become illegal. Then what are you going to do? It's already getting more and more illegal to speak your mind. After all, you wouldn't want to be labelled a 'terrorist' now would you?

Re:Is it really a problem?

[pubjames]

I don't do anything illegal online (warez, stealing music, etc) so I've nothing to worry about.

Sir,

it has come to our attention that you have been illegally hacking into private computer systems [sorn.net]. Please report to your local police station to pay your fine and receive your forehead tattoo. Failure to do so will result in your termination.

Have a nice day!

USA Peopletackers(tm) Correction Unit Inc.

Re:Is it really a problem?

[Rogerborg]

> I'm not too bothered if someone is tracking where I go and where my car goes within a city

Sure, because only criminals have something to hide. And you never do anything illegal in your car. You never speed, you never pick up a hooker, you never go and buy drugs, you never pick up anything that you've paid cash for and not asked about the sales tax. Likewise, your car will never be mistaken for someone elses, and you'll never turn the wrong way down Hooker Alley, or stop to ask directions from Peter the Pusher, and you'll never find yourself parking near a terrorist cell gathering, aka anti-government political rally, right? Right?

>I still have the privacy of my own home, which is the only place I really had privacy in the first place

Unless you're suspected of being a terrorist supporting drug user, in which case the police can use an IR camera to watch you through your walls.

But that's OK. You've probably got nothing to worry about. Not this week.

Re:Is it really a problem?

[pmz]

You never speed, you never pick up a hooker, you never go and buy drugs, you never pick up anything that you've paid cash for and not asked about the sales tax.

This is the problem. Human nature goes so fiercely against the grain of the idealism programmed into these databases that they are destined to become a constant burden for free and good people. The worst outcome would be that this data is admissable in court. "So, Mr. Smith, you were just asking Mr. Pusher and Ms. Hooker for directions, weren't

A pertinent what-if

[lysium]

My only worry about this is what happens if the data collected by the government falls into the wrong hands? If someone had enough information about you to know what places you went to on a regular basis, they'd have enough information to know when you're not at home

In light of current events, would "wrong hands" include government officials that twist intelligence data to further political aims?

Re:Is it really a problem?

[drooling-dog]

I don't do anything illegal online (warez, stealing music, etc) so I've nothing to worry about.

Well, this is exactly the central fallacy; i.e., that you only need to fear the unbridled power of the state if you're doing something illegal. It is a fallacy because it assumes that all agents of the government have perfect integrity and are interested only in diligently and dispassionately enforcing the law (which is itself perfectly fair and just) and getting the "bad guys" (who are truly bad, always, or else why would they want to get them?).

If this were true, then dictatorships in other countries should be utopias where the Bad Guys are thwarted and Good People (like yourself) live in peace and harmony. But it isn't that way, is it? Dictators - and people in the many layers of authority beneath them - have their own agendas that you won't read in any constitutional document. Maybe you're sitting pretty until some friend of the police chief decides he'd like to buy your house for a really good price, or until some government official notifies your boss that you voted the wrong way in the last election (since you don't need privacy, I mean).

It always amazes me how secure conservatives often feel about their own immunity after they sell out our freedom and liberty for the sake of the "culture wars" they're always talking about. They think that they can always ensure their own safety by whoring themselves to the wealthy and powerful. But eventually the winds don't blow they way you think they will, and you may discover yourself on the enemies list of someone who can do whatever the hell they please. And who will be left to defend your "rights" then?

If I want to talk PRIVATELY, I'll use an encrypted connection.

Of course your benevolent dictatorship that only goes after the Truly Bad will have no problem with your use of encryption.

Re:Is it really a problem?

[jaavaaguru]

I don't use the phone much... and when I do, I don't care if anyone can hear what I'm saying. I'd rather talk about personal things face-to-face, and I use jabber or e-mail for the rest of my communication most of the time. Still, I don't feel at all endangered by this announcement.

the cart before the horse

[rdewald]

The USGovt can't even manage the information they receive now. There are reams of information they had about the 9/11 plans that just didn't get invetigated, interrogations that are untranslated years after they happened, untold bytes that are simply stored and unexamined, we should abandon the notion that the government wants these capabilities to protect anyone.

The government wants this information because of a desire for power. Will this be used to scan for threats to the general public or to curtail and monitor the activites of those who threaten governmental power, like dissenting political activists? Look at the history of the abuse of the FBI by almost every executive administration for those answers.

This won't stop until the people pull the plug.

land of the free

[cr@ckwhore]

Actions like this adds fuel to the fire that will erupt in revolution. Remember, this country was founded by people that became intensely disgusted with the opressions of their own government.

Chances are very good that they'd be disgusted today with what their foundations for freedom have become. I think the US government is now far worse than the british government was in 1776.

So, the ultimate question is ... how much longer?

Re:land of the free

[Cackmobile]

i agree. at least you could disappear into the wilderness back then.

Re:land of the free

[kahei]

>I think the US government is now far worse than >the british government was in 1776.

Yes, it's inferior to the Dutch government of 1491 but not as bad as the Ethiopian regime of 1732. On the other hand the French monarchy of 1288 was worse than the Xixian theocracy of the late 14th century, and almost as awful as the Tupi tribal councils of the 1920's.

Re:land of the free

[Rogerborg]

>I think the US government is now far worse than the british government was in 1776.

Rubbish. The British gunned down political protestors in cold blood and then tried to spin that it was their fault for rising up against soldiers that were garrisoned there to protect them. The USA doesn't do that! When we gun down political protestors in Iraq, it is because they are rising up against soldiers that are garrison there to protect them. Surely you see the difference?

Hmm. Or perhaps not. The Iraqis

Re:land of the free

[cr@ckwhore]

And throwing more fuel on the fire ...

Waco, Texas, April 19th, 1993 -- 75 people killed by the US Government.

Ruby Ridge, Idaho, August 22, 1992 -- 2 people killed by the US Government.

Re:land of the free

[Rogerborg]

Yes, I know that, and I also know that one of them was black or native American [k12.fl.us], but was shown as white in Revere's revolutionary propaganda, which goes to show the long history of spin in American politics.

I suspect we're agreeing, by the way. Put <sardonic></sardonic> around my original post and see if it makes more sense.

Re:land of the free

[SerpentMage]

Well, I think the system is broken. Will people get off their butts? Not likely because they know that they cannot make a difference.

Here is the main problem. You have about 120 million people who could vote. Lets say only 50% vote. You still have 60 million who are voting. Will your vote make a difference? NOT A CHANCE. With those odds you would probably sooner win the lottery.

The main problem is that there are too many people voting. I am not saying that there should not be voting, but somethin

Brain yes....heart no

[Billly Gates]

Subject says all.

Ashcroft really scares me. Libertarians were all supported Bush in 2000. I wonder what they will do in 04. My guess is they are more unhappy with Bush then Clinton at this point thanks mostly to CHeney and Ashcroft.

Re:Brain yes....heart no

[xyzzy]

Sorry, real libertarians voted for Harry Browne. At least, this one did. Bush is only nominally closer to the libertarian ideal than Al Gore, and probably further in many dimensions.

Re:Brain yes....heart no

[kahei]

I'm afraid you're drastically overestimating libertarians :)

Coming soon...

[pubjames]

Guy: Hey, I was on holiday all last year, abroad. I didn't file a return because I didn't make any money.

IRS man: No you weren't. You were in San Francisco all year.

Guy: Oh. I didn't know you could find out that kind of thing.

IRS man: We have photos. Look, some of them are quite good.

Guy: Oh yes. Can I have a copy of that one of me selling stolen car radios at the beach?

IRS man: How about that one? Your hair looks really cool in that one.

Guy: Great!

IRS man: We'll add it to your bill...

Tracking has been around for a while... CC's?

[192939495969798999]

You could easily use credit card information to track where people are going, or even record the numbers on their money when they go to the bank, and then see where the money goes. It's not that difficult. It baffles me to think that DARPA could actually track everyone... maybe they could prevent those Jerry Springer episodes by calling you in case your wife's at your brother's house!

If they were really interested

[GMontag]

If 'they' were really interested in tracking the "suspicious people" 'they' just have to hang out in front of "The Village Voice" and WBAI offices in NYC :-)

Jefferson says-

[paiute]

Jesus Tapdancing Christ. Don't you feel that there are people way too close to the levers of power who would be happy if every citizen reported to their local Patriotic Office every day to prove that they were not a terrorist (powder residue tests, full cavity search, lie-detectopr test)?

I'm praying for a rip in the fabric of spacetime that lets the Founding Fathers through. They would be bitch slapping these bastards so hard....

Frankly...This isn't so bad...

[opti6600]

Frankly, I don't mind -proposals- and -concepts- like this, if they can be executed properly.

Yeah, I'd like to meet Bob at the server farm, and Bill behind the data feeds, but hey, that's not realistic. I can't remember who said it, but those who do nothing wrong have nothing to fear really. Now sure, if they hit my house with cameras, I might have some qualms, but being out on sidewalks, things like that, it's not too bad if somebody knows that I just got my arse mugged and hunts the perp down using a net

both scary, and cool

[AssFace]

1984 was cool because everyone got thin and flat, big screen tvs in the apartments - for free!
Sure, the downside was that you were monitored, but the units were shiny!

The Big Brother type stuff has always been a dualism for me - part of me thinks it cool to be able to track XYZ and watch the stats of it all, but then there is the part of me that doesn't really personally want to be watched so much.

Of all of the Big Brother type things, my favorite of all time was the AT&T Labs thing where there were u

Ahh, but...

[MImeKillEr]

...how would the system react (even one with a 'brain') to people who participated in the Ministry of Silly Walks [mwscomp.com]?

Tracking

[Dark Lord Seth]

'track everything that moves.'

Operator: Incoming segway! Incoming segway! Bearing 305 mark 5, heading 252 mark 8!
Commander: Sweet mother! IFF signal!?
Operator: Unknown, sir!
Commander: Damn it! Any units ready!?
Operator: Negative, fifth armour is stuck in a traffic jam at Main street!
Commander: Damn it all to hell! Get me NORAD on the line, someone inform the president!
Operator: Visual confirmation coming in by TrackSat2 Delta... NORAD will be notified, unable to notify the president sir!
Commander: Explain yourself!
Operator: The president is driving that segway, sir!
Commander: By all that's unholy...

Foil hat

[not_a_george]

Yeah, but can they see me with my foil hat on?

has darpa heard of 7-11?

[linuxislandsucks]

go to any conveince store and by observation I can tell you where each vehice came from work or home, theri famliy member composition, living conditions , and etc..

It did not cost me tens of millions of dollars either!

Hmm....

[Schezar]

In the true penny-arcade style, I propose the following:

We gather a large group in a major urban center. Taking our cars, we drive en masse along a pre-planned route that, to the pattern-matching machine, will appear as a giant wang on the map.

This wang will be awe-inspiring, perhaps enough-so to cause the AI in the machine to become envious, thereby destroying it.

President: What's that on the map? Some sort of terrorist cell!?

CIA guy: Ummm....

President: I want answers!

CIA guy: Well... It appears... to be a... wang, sir.

President: Wang, eh? That some sort of dirty bomb?...

I need to track STATIONARY objects

[Scottm87]

I wonder if DARPA makes a model for my room, or for my house. A consumer model would always be able to tell me where I left my car keys, or where I lost my bookbag. Or where my mind ran off to...

I would like to fuck it up.

[Openadvocate]

It would be fun to mess with it.
Drive back and forth on the same route, try to guess which patterns would trigger it. Like those numberplate reading traffic monitors. those could be fun to "play" with like mounting the rear plate from the car in the front of another. Just to see if they have prepared for the odd readings or will it say "average traveltime to center -3.4 min" :)

Re:I would like to fuck it up.

[MImeKillEr]

.. a buddy of mine informed me that there are plastic license covers that block the numbers from being seen by the traffic cams.

Anyone know where to get one of these?

When they say "everyone"

[Rogerborg]

That means DARPA employees, NSA, CIA, FBI, police, Congressmen, Senators, the Executive, Fortunate Sons of Blue Chip dynasties, [RI|MP]AA execs, Enron/Worldcomm/Haliburton CEOs, high class hookers, roofied teenage pop star wannabes, assorted Princes and diplomats from oppressive oil rich dictatorships, coke dealers, transexual Thai ladyboy dominatrices and all, right?

I ask this because it'll be very interesting to see if Freedom of Information extends to letting We, the People find out the locations of those people, and specifically, interesting intersections of them in space-time.

I'm betting not in practice ("National Security" == "IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH"), but it'd be nice to assert it in principle about now to hopefully give Them a chance to pause for thought.

I work in robotics...

[nicodemus05]

and I have to say that it is unbelievably hard to write algorithms that take an image and break it down into relevant data. What isn't even work for us (looking at an image and determining the license plate number of a car) becomes a huge strain on a computer processor, assuming that code can be written that performs the job reliably. The lower the image resolution is, the harder it becomes to glean anything from the picture. What is this 8 kilobits a second joke? Even if they can compress the video to that extent, I doubt any usable information would be retained. But, since I know that you can compress it that much, how do they plan on getting the data back to their central processing station? The infrastructure isn't there. Are they going to be running cable lines? Installing dial-up modems?

Even if they get the infrastructure set up, how do they implement this in our legal system? I figure that the images they have will be grainy, black and white, and of blurry, moving cars at night. I don't see how you can hand that to a jury and say, "Well, even though you can't see anything here, our program is nearly 87% certain that this car is in fact the car of the defendant." Is 13% reasonable doubt? Is 12%? We know that .5% isn't, or cases involving DNA evidence would be thrown out. At what point does jury duty become the analysis of quantatative figures as opposed to qualitative arguments?

To some extent I feel like a logical justice system is a step forward for society. At the same time, I'd prefer a trial by my peers, were I ever faced with the choice. Some day a jury deliberation may be number crunching:

"Well, the computer on 4th and Broad Street has determined with 75 percent probability that the defendant was moving towards the scene of the crime, and the computer on 5th and Broad Street gives us a 80 percent probability that he stopped at the scene. That gives us a 95% degree of probability that he was at the scene at the time of the murder. According to the Numerical Methods Act of 2015, we have to convict him."

Where have we seen this before?

[Badgerman]

We've seen it a few years ago. This idea of doing everything, tracking everything, of perfect harmonious integration sounds like ever BS marketing plan we heard during the dot-com-to-bomb era.

Government is usually behind the curve. Sounds like they caught up with the enthusiasm of years past. I expect the future for their rosy plans will be much the same - massive reality cramps.

Of course they'll have the money to keep trying (our money), which is one big difference.

Left hand, right hand

[Badgerman]

On one hand, our government wants to track all movement.

On the other, they're terrified of a dissertation [washingtonpost.com] that uses simple data mining to reveal infrastructure weakness.

So . . . they're going to build a massive system, rely on it, and thus give people a nice jucy target to screw up. Knowing the government, it won't work anyway, or if it somehow works it'll be misused, making it only more laughable.

Besides, imagine what happens when someone Bluescreens national security . . .

Path of least observation

[asmithmd1]

The Institute for Applied Autonomy [appliedautonomy.com] has a nice tool to plan paths through Manhattan that will take you past the fewest cameras. I imagine these kinds of tools will spring up in other areas

Or you can get ahead of them like I have. Get a tracking cell phone [gadgeteer.org] while it is still optional

But I thought...

[thx2001r]

that Conservatives stood for smaller government... surely creating equipment to monitor each street in the country (because it seems to me it'd be a lot easier to install cameras, or use existing ones in our own cities rather than it would be to send technicians out to a war zone and start installing cameras while people are shooting at you!) is the opposite of that.

As a matter of fact, the first time you do something "erratic" or "suspicious" to the computer system and it sends a police car to follow you around and/or arrest or harrass you, you will be so glad we live in a free country that is just protecting us from terrorists.

I'm in my late 20's so I still get harrassed often by police because young men often look suspicious to police because of our age and when we do suspicious things such as drive around or walk. Just last week I was followed around my apartment complex all the way to my house because I looked suspicious... I was going to ask the officer what the problem was but unfortunately there is no way to question my local police...

Once I tried talking to one as he was about to follow me into my gated apartment complex (a separate incident) after he unsuccessfully tried to guess a gate code for a few minutes rather than using the emergency code (because he really just wanted to drive around and harrass people and had no reason to be there). I told him, very politely, actually, because a friend of mine who is a policeman in Ft. Lauderdale that was visiting me was in the car with me, "Sir, please use your gate code". He then almost broke down the gate with the car that my taxes in part paid for and screamed (at the top of his lungs and in a very inappropriately rude and loud response to a very calm statement on my part (I have a witness)) "Boy, move your car or I'm gonna arrest you and kick your A**". After being threatened by the cop, my Policeman buddy explained to me that, though the cop was being a prick, was absolutely wrong, was trying to break into my neighborhood (there is an emergency gate code for official police business he did not use and the fact that he was trying for about five minutes to guess a resident gate code so it wouldn't be on the record that he used the emergency code for no emergency), and threatened to beat the crap out of me, I better let him in because I should show him some respect.

After this incident, I am afraid to speak to police because, in their line of work my friend told me, they are suspicious of everyone for their own safety. That's fine, and I think wise, but there is a serious difference between being overly cautious and suspicious and beind downright disrespectful, threatening, and harassing young people and minorities because we all "look suspicious". Perhaps I should spray paint my hair grey so I don't "look suspicious" anymore.

I know my experiences with police have been extremely mild in comparison with other people's experiences, fortunately for me, I never was up to no good when encountering police. Well, this is certainly an off-topic rant, but it goes to show how enthusiastic I am to be visually followed around a city, marked as "suspicious" because I'm young, then pinpointed for harrassment by the police.

Surely there are more respectful ways to treat americans!

Waaaaaay back in the 1980s...

[PHAEDRU5]

Way back in the 1980s I used to do a lot of travel between England and Ireland. As an American citizen liveing in Ireland, I carried a passport issued by the US Consulate in Dublin.

I swear, every time I was stopped at Heathrow, they'd pull out the book of wanted IRA men and compare my picture to every damned one. Thank you, NORAID.

More recently, passing through Gatwick, I had my picture taken and compared programatically to a list of wanted faces. The camera was right out there in front of me. I've yet to experience the same in the U.S.

I guess the point is that the US may be going to hell, but it's doing so more slowly than everywhere else.

Are you thinking what I'm thinking, Pinky?

[inertia187]

Pinky : "Gee, Brain what do you want to do tonight?"
Brain : "The same thing we do every night Pinky. Try to take over the world!"

That's nice, but where is...

[Zhe Mappel]

..the technology that will allow us to monitor the liars, crooks and fools who lead us?

(Apparently, some ancient technology known as the "media" used to work, and another called "the Constitution" was also formerly useful. But we didn't replace the dilithium crystals or something.)

wonderful...

[alizard]

Even a 1% false positive rate on recognizing individuals would tie up a ridiculous number of law enforcement personnel on tracking perfectly innocent people.

Tracking terrorists? While dozens of police cars head for the "last known" location of a target, the real terrorist can have a wonderful time planting bombs somewhere the hell else.

We're probably about 5 years away to improving any such system to the 1% level.

Re:Good

[AlistairGroves]

Either that or people that don't like the idea of being followed 24-7 by a computer system, monitored by a random individual that can look up what the hell they want to about you. I work for the government in Britain, and I accept that while I am in the building my movements will be monitored, but when I leave I can do pretty much what I want, without the worry of people watching me, making assumptions based on someone I walked past on the street. At this rate the next stpe will be to accept this as evide

Re:this should protect us from terrorists

[Cackmobile]

Problem....they would have had to identify the terrorists first so they knew who to look at. You can't use this to do that.

Re:Thanks for the editorializing

[chef_raekwon]

No person out in the real world could be this naive. bin Laden trained somewhere between 70 and 100 thousand terrorists. It would be stupid in the extreme to believe that none of those guys (and girls?) are right here in the US.

either this guy works for the Bush Administration, or has been severly brainwashed...
they are infiltrating powerplants as much as there are Weapons of Mass destruction in Iraq. SOrry to say, but the Department of Defense has the American public wrapped around its Fear Finger.

Re:Thanks for the editorializing

[TSMABob]

While you may not be in college or high school, its views like yours that let democracy fall. So Bin Laden trained a few hundred terrorists (because of our egotistical superiority over the middle east, but thats a whole 'nother topic)... does that give the United States any right to "suspect everybody"??? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

The reason that people live in this great country is because people have the freedom to do what they feel is necessary to protect their rights. If someone wants to "steal gas trucks and ram them into office buildings," certainly the government should take steps to stop them from doing so, but not at the expense of giving up our personal freedoms such as the right to privacy.

Sure, its a scary world, and the possibilities are definitely endless for terrorists who want to blow shit up. But being so gripped by fear to give up your freedom to live your life is the most idiotic way to live I've ever heard. There are millions of people around the world living under that kinda of facist/militaristic rule, and I'd be willing to bet that any one of them would LOVE to trade places with you, with the ability to use the internet to look up information they never knew existed before, to drive around in a car wherever they want, and if they desire, to rise up against an evil government and overthrow them!

Re:Videotaping and Tracking are GOOD!

[chef_raekwon]

killed by some inner city negroes and don't want to die from from some extremist groups.

imagine that...the risk one takes to be alive.

gimme a break pal. (unless this is a joke) if you don't want to get killed, do something about it, ie - fix the problems with the 'inner city negroes' so that they don't kill you...
- fix your foreign policy so that extremist groups have NO reason to be extreme.
game, set, match.

Re:Videotaping and Tracking are GOOD!

[Blind Linux]

That's the passive way to do things.
While the afformentioned inner-city thugs or extremist groups may or may not have legitimate grievances, the United States (or any other country) simply cannot afford to appease these groups, as this would set a precedent for others who would then also use violence against civilians as a means of achieving their sociopolitical goals.
Inner-city drug dealers and hoodlums, regardless of color (because (if not joking) association of inner-city crime with blacks reeks of rac

Re:Just as long as..

[DanBrusca]

The UK's military comms satellites are called Skynet.

I wonder if I should be afraid?

Re:Solution to all of this...

[Cackmobile]

all i can say is your a wanker. seriously. do you realise how much this would hurt your country. all trade with theus would cease. all tourist dollars would be gone. do u know how many jobs you would cost. let alone your rascist comments. btw the US is not the big benefactor that you think. the US gives one of the smallest amounts per GDP for any developed country. the EU provides much more.

Re:Solution to all of this...

[Cackmobile]

Nice!!!!