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Bill Would Let FBI Police File-Sharing 422

vnguyen6 writes "According to an article on MSNBC, a bill introduced in the Senate gives the FBI power to police file sharing. As if the FBI didn't have their own messes to clean up such as the handling of pre-911 intelligence, FBI agents turned spy (Robert Hanssen), the Los Alamos lab debacle, double agent Mrs. Katrina Leung, need I say more?"
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Bill Would Let FBI Police File-Sharing

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  • Corporatism (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Ricin ( 236107 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:02PM (#6263844)
    It's called corporatism and was very aptly described and put into context by Mussolini. No troll, no joke.
  • Bill Who? (Score:5, Funny)

    by ViXX0r ( 188100 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:02PM (#6263851) Homepage
    Who else here read the title at first and thought that?

    Perhaps it's Mr. Gates at it again :)
  • A thought... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by c0dedude ( 587568 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:02PM (#6263852)
    Yeah, if this passes, the era of Kazaa et al. will end perminantly, as everyone will be too scared to get caught to share or download as the FBI WILL catch people for copyright violations. Fair use? Hah.
    • Re:A thought... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Uber Banker ( 655221 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:07PM (#6263879)
      I doubt the FBI have much of the resources - now. They could be conviently funded by the RIAA though and get resources directed to this.

      So it comes down to a secretive police force investigating people on behalf of corporate funding rather than allowing these funds to be spent on murder, terrorism, rape or theft charges.

      Shame on you.

      • Re:A thought... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by t_allardyce ( 48447 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:49PM (#6264080) Journal
        So it comes down to a secretive police force investigating people on behalf of corporate funding

        I thought thats exactly what America was about? You mean its not? Well i dont live there, but i just got the impression that politicians and government agencies were all "sponsored" by various corporations with their own agendas.

        rather than allowing these funds to be spent on murder, terrorism, rape or theft charges.

        Q: Who says music piracy is less important than murder? A: Well the RIAA ofcourse! - when your funded by sponsors, you do what they say.

        why do i always confuse IRA with RIAA??
    • The first problem is that this A LOT to police. To start with there are LOTS of people involved in P2P. Next, the FBI would need to determine to reasonable extent that the material is infringing. While a lot of things on Kazaa are illegal, not everything is.

      As far as I know, the FBI already investigates software piracy claims (at least in the sense of people making illegal copies available). However, they obviously have not completely stopped that (far from it really). They didn't even have a handle o

    • by reallocate ( 142797 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:27PM (#6263981)
      Wholesale copying of the entirety of hundred or thousands of titles and making those copies available to an audience of strangers across the entire globe is not, and never has been, considered fair use.

      If you copy your entire CD collection and serve it up to the world, that's infringement, not fair use.

      The only thing that the great crowd of filesharing whiners is going to get for the rest of us is a bunch of costly and annoying technical copy prohibition schemes.
      • Sure it has. Radio broadcasters do it all the time.

        Copyright is meant to enrich authors, artists, and inventors: not cartel middle men. Even with an ASCAP protection payment, the original authors never get their cut.
    • Re:A thought... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      If the FBI won't bother going after someone who has just hijacked charter.com's DNS server entries and is running their own online bank password and credit card number sniffing web proxies, why would they spend a New York minute on a Kazaa user?
      • Re:A thought... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Tackhead ( 54550 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @08:38PM (#6264591)
        > If the FBI won't bother going after someone who has just hijacked charter.com's DNS server entries and is running their own online bank password and credit card number sniffing web proxies, why would they spend a New York minute on a Kazaa user?

        Because the RIAA pays them to.

        Hijack a million open proxies to fill your kids' inboxes with h0t w3t 5lutz wh0 w4nt 2 suk ur c0ck? No problem! (Hell, not even charter.com gives a fuck, and it's charter's clueless fuckwit customers whose open proxies are being abused to tell your kids about incest goat pr0n.)

        But listen to Britney Spears without paying RIAA their cut? Yo, dude, that's a crime. FBI'll be on your ass like Hilary Rosen on a box of Krispy Kremes.

        All I want is to live in a world where comments like this could be moderated (-1, Troll) instead of (+1, Informative).

  • Of course (Score:2, Insightful)

    by sielwolf ( 246764 )
    As if the FBI didn't have their own messes to clean up such as the handling of pre-911 intelligence, FBI agents turned spy (Robert Hanssen), the Los Alamos lab debacle, double agent Mrs. Katrina Leung, need I say more?"
    What does this have to do with anything? It's nothing but an attack instead of dealing with the issue at hand. I'm sorry but a billion dollar government organization can do two things at once. Not well but well enough.
    • Re:Of course (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      No, this is valid.

      The FBI only has 11,000 agents. After September 11th, 7,000 of them were dealing with counterterrorism. The FBI needs more agents. They DO NOT have unlimited manpower.

      The FBI has enough problems. We are seeing increases in drug and sex trafficking. The DEA and local enforcement has been largely abandoned by the FBI in terms of aid in fighting drug cartels. Counterterrorism is the priority. With stuff like this, it only takes away more resources from fighting the real stuff.

      This is very,
  • by porkface ( 562081 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:06PM (#6263872) Journal
    If P2P threatens our economy as much as some people think, why shouldn't the FBI go after pirates and the like?

    Sure that's all debatable, but local law enforcement isn't up to the task. It's a decentralized problem geographically, but from another perspective it's centralized on the net and attacking it might best be handled by a central, and technologically capable command. The FBI seems like the most logical choice.

    Sure they have other fish to fry, but considering that most people I know, including those who can barely use a computer, are sharing software movies and music, perhaps government has to grow a little to keep this from becoming even worse as in some places like China and Russia.
    • by poptones ( 653660 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:15PM (#6263920) Journal
      Sure they have other fish to fry, but considering that most people I know, including those who can barely use a computer, are sharing software movies and music, perhaps government has to grow a little to keep this from becoming even worse as in some places like China and Russia.

      Context:

      Now that anyone I know can afford a book how will the church control information? Now that anyone I know can afford to copy a page from a book, how will publishers and printers stay in business?

      Shit happens. It's not our government's job to protect us from knowledge and information... unlike in those "free" countries you mentioned.

      • by porkface ( 562081 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:51PM (#6264088) Journal
        Hey, I'm just saying there is no room for any kind of sustainable commercial software industry in those countries because piracy goes unchecked. I'm not advocating the FBI stepping in and changing any rules about what you can or can't say or read.

        Sending the 0101010's of Microsoft Windows XP + serial to your buddy for him to use without paying is not covered by the first ammendment or any other law.

        Sure industries need to adapt, and the ones most under fire from piracy have shown a strong will against adapting to give consumers what they want. But a strong attempt at a boycott should have been tried before we turned to looting.
        • Sending the 0101010's of Microsoft Windows XP + serial to your buddy for him to use without paying is not covered by the first ammendment or any other law.

          Actually, that IS protected speech. However, Microsoft,etc. are also entitled to use the court system to sue you for damages, and have you punished. Laws are made to restrict freedoms, not create them. The law does not know, just in the transmission of data, whether your action is licensed, sanctioned, or anything else - it's the interpretation after

        • Me giving you a copy of windows is "speech" - if I give you a copy of windows I am supporting windows because I have helped make it just a tiny bit more pervasive. Who is harmed? Microsoft? The software industry as a whole that relies windows? If I give you a copy of windows you're that much more likely to go out and buy some more software that runs under windows. You may instead (also) get that software for free, but it's inarguable that you are infinitely more likely to buy windows software if you have a
  • Knee-jerk policing? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Mr Smidge ( 668120 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:06PM (#6263874) Homepage
    .. And I wonder what sophisticated monitoring techniques the FBI would use to filter out those individuals who grossly leech tons of files, and those who just happen to be sharing within their fair use rights among friends, and those who just happen to have a library of legally-obtained copyrighted files.

    Oh wait, that's not on their checklist now is it?
    • If a random stranger off the internet can download an entire copyrighted song from you, you're hardly within your fair use rights, are you? All the FBI has to do is connect to file sharing networks themselves and download+save the copyrighted data as evidence. The only hard part is then tying an IP address to a prosecutable person.

      If they enforced this in the right way: at least 10% of the largest violators caught and subjected to a few hundreds of dollars of fines, like speeding tickets, then I'd be in
  • by TyrranzzX ( 617713 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:07PM (#6263877) Journal
    And I agree, this is corperatism and it's absolute bullshit. I'm getting sick and tired of hearing about how goverment agency X attempts to enfoce the unenforcable with new and buggier technology, then proceeds to hange some poor guy or gal on the highest pole they can fine. Pretty soon time will be copyrighted and so will words.

    This is a complete waste of our goverment which can be doing useful things such as tracking down pedophiles or hanging rapists assholes. Hell, if corperates had their way police would be giving out nothing but tickets, letting the real criminals go (becuase it costs money to put em' in jail)...I don't think most polcemen signed onto the force to go after the average joe who's sick of a media monopoly, I think they'd rather be cracking the skull a real criminal.
    • "Pretty soon time will be copyrighted and so will words"

      its called newspeak from 1984 [online-literature.com] try and keep up please.
    • This of course assumes that pedophiles don't use file-sharing...

      I wouldn't be suprised if tracking pedophiles was the first excuse the government uses to validate this. After all *nobody* could possibly be against keeping our children safe!...

      And unfortunately it seems as though most police[wo]men these days signed on to get immunity from being harrassed from other police[wo]men...

      (ps- my appologies to any law enforcement officers reading; I recently was fined $30 for wearing my seatbelt, and am thus sl
    • "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. (from Encyclopedia Italiana, Giovanni Gentile, editor).

      Yup. you hit the nail right on the head.

      And this is justified by saying that downloading music and movies online hurts the economy.

      Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. The amount of people who only download music and movies and don't buy them can't be very high. First off, only 50% of the households in the U.S. have computers in the first place. Secondly, it's hard to believe that all of those 50% use a file sharing system. After all, only, what? 10% or of those have broadband connections? I mean downloading the stuff over a 56K modem connection takes an excruciating amount of time. And what percentage of those don't buy music or movies and exclusively use stuff they got off the net? Personally, my purchase of movies and music has *increased*, not decreased since I got broadband and started using file sharing services.

      And, why would the FBI investigate this stuff? Last I checked, copyright violation was a civil, not a criminal matter. Violation of copyright is not theft anyway. Check with the U.S. copyright office. They do not consider it theft.

      Why do we need this government interference in our lives? Why should the RIAA and the MPAA dictate our lives? What happened to our constitutionally limited republic?

      I'm sick of this. I'm about ready to move to some country that has smaller government and less governmental interference in my life. Anybody got any suggestions?

    • Most cops DO have better things to do than nail some PFY serving up copies of Warcraft III on his cable connection. However, this is the FBI we're talking about, not local cops... the FBI is beholden only to the FedGov. If you think your local PD can be unresponsive, try dealing with the FBI.

      Thing is, the FBI is not feeling too good lately. They hunted for Eric Rudolph for years, and spent tens of millions of dollars and who busts him? A rookie local cop with less than a year on the force, who catches
  • Not their job... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by wbren ( 682133 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:08PM (#6263882) Homepage
    As the article pointed out, this isn't the FBI's job, and âoe[i]t gives them a chance to scare a lot of users into thinking the government is after them.â This should be handled through the courts, not the RIAABI--err--FBI... I can just imagine 100 million people being arrested by the FBI due to copyright infringements...
    • by Anonymous Coward
      RIAABI? don't call it that, the skinheads will cry "ZOG ZOG ZOG! Zionist Conspiracy!"
    • by RPI Geek ( 640282 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:24PM (#6263964) Journal
      I can just imagine 100 million people being arrested by the FBI due to copyright infringements...

      IANAL, but I'm pretty sure copyright infringement is a civil crime and hence is not an arrestable offense. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
      • Re:Not their job... (Score:3, Informative)

        by Idarubicin ( 579475 )
        IANAL, but I'm pretty sure copyright infringement is a civil crime and hence is not an arrestable offense. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

        If we limit our discussion to the United States, then usually copyright infringement is a civil matter. Criminal proceedings can take place under 17 USC 506 [cornell.edu]. (A fellow /.er [slashdot.org] filled me in during a previous discussion.)

        The bit governing criminal offenses:

        Sec. 506. - Criminal offenses

        (a) Criminal Infringement. -

        Any person who infringes a copyright willfully either

  • by rehabdoll ( 221029 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:08PM (#6263887) Homepage
    I dont have the energy to read the article but how would FBI, The US Goverment and the US public feel about non-us goverments policing p2p-nets? Would they be outraged or welcome the "help"? The Internet is public domain, not US property.
  • by SmirkingRevenge ( 633503 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:09PM (#6263891)
    I've bought maybe 3 CDs in the past few years and only directly from the artists (usually independantly made) here in Austin. I download music I'm interested in off of Kazaa/eMule and refuse to ever buy the CD if it's an RIAA company.

    That said, we _are_ guilty of copyright infringement, and the sharing networks could pretty easily lock out that material. As a software engineer I very much dislike seeing software pirated online and it'd be pretty hypocritical of me to support downloading music but wanting to punish/prevent software piracy.

    The point is, we're commiting a federal crime, which falls under FBI jurasdiction, it's pretty hard to contest this. Contest the laws, fine, but give me a good reason this doesn't fall under the FBI's umbrella.
    • I'm not questioning their right to prosecute people that distribute copyrighted material. My main problem with this law is: "That would probably authorize them to tell ISPs, âYou also need to give information on users to the RIAA (the Recording Industry Association of America) whenever they ask.â(TM)â I just think there's a lot of room for abuse here...maybe I'm just paranoid.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      Back when america wasn't trying to become the most powerful fascist state in the world, copyright violation was only a civil offense, not criminal.
  • What does the F.B.I. plan on doing about those international users of said p2p programs who violate copyright, or is this yet another act of the U.S. government pretending that people don't live outside the U.S.?
  • by bedouin ( 248624 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:10PM (#6263893)
    Coming soon: Off shore shell accounts with pre-installed CLI p2p clients.
  • FBI no, anarchy yes (Score:3, Interesting)

    by spazoid12 ( 525450 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:11PM (#6263900)
    "As if the FBI didn't have their own messes to clean up such as the handling of pre-911 intelligence, FBI agents turned spy (Robert Hanssen), the Los Alamos lab debacle, double agent Mrs. Katrina Leung, need I say more?"

    If McDonald's announced it were going to start selling BBQ pork chops, would you say "as if they didn't have their own messes...one time an employee spit in a burger...need I say more?"

    Or, maybe you saw a small bug in notepad.exe...quick! Condem all of Microsoft! (ok, maybe)

    But, aside from this file-sharing issue, it seems you have an FBI axe you'd like ground to the hilt. I'm sure the FBI is far from perfect. How do you propose it be fixed?

    Service Announcement: The text of this post that you've just read is copyright, me, and I have not given you permission to read it. You are in violation of my copyright and the FBI will be raiding you soon. Thank you.
  • Bill wouldn't let anyone to share their files! Bill keeps his monopoly with a strong hand and no matter what, FBI, government, hackers, competition - nobody's allowed to share their files, at least using Bill's OS!
  • FBI and File-Sharing (Score:3, Informative)

    by Orne ( 144925 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:14PM (#6263917) Homepage
    Don't you think the FBI has already proved that they are the last organization you want policing sharing? Lest we forget, it was not too long ago that they their own problems with sharing their files [pbs.org] as it is...

    "After an internal FBI probe also released today sharply criticized the manner in which the Clinton White House obtained more than 400 such files from the FBI. The internal inquiry by the FBI's general counsel found that the White House's request between December of 1993 and February of 1994 were without justification and amounted to "egregious violations of privacy." "
  • Well, a reason... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SharpFang ( 651121 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:19PM (#6263936) Homepage Journal
    I guess they won't touch average Joe Geek for file sharing, but if they see you are suspect, they may arrest you, just for this bogus reason that you shared your files and start some more serious investigation with you legally in jail.

    In darkest times of communist terror in Poland, there was a common saying "Don't worry, they can find a paragraph for everyone". Seems this law is just one more of such paragraphs to "match everyone".
    • Yeah, I'm waiting for there to be a link drawn between P2P and terrorism. Then every user would be considered "supporting terrorism" and under the PATRIOT Act we could be tried in a military tribunal without access to the "evidence" against us and be tried as an enemy of the state.

      I'm not the paranoid type, but it really isn't that far of a jump.

    • US 'paragraphs' (Score:3, Insightful)

      by SuperBanana ( 662181 )
      In darkest times of communist terror in Poland, there was a common saying "Don't worry, they can find a paragraph for everyone". Seems this law is just one more of such paragraphs to "match everyone".

      Ah, like the MA state law which makes it illegal to "misuse" the equipment in your vehicle, which cops use to stop you when there's something hanging from your rear-view mirror, if they don't like the looks of you? Then there's the popular-in-movies "[smack] Gee, your taillight is out..."

      How about an even

  • by weston ( 16146 ) <<westonsd> <at> <canncentral.org>> on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:23PM (#6263960) Homepage
    This seems like it's already in their domain. Don't they already have the authority to intercept and monitor electronic communications? Have jurisdiction over interstate transfers/transactions/deliveries? Can prosecute cases with more than $5,000 damage (which, thanks to inflated estimates, copyright infringement cases are)? And hey, it's a feature of most p2p apps that they essentially open up your computer for inspection for the potentially offending material, so it's not like they need to legislate around unreasonable search/seizure laws.

    I really don't see what extra powers the FBI needs here.
    • I really don't see what extra powers the FBI needs here.

      I think that the 'extra' is political legitimacy. Most people think that existing laws are for catching criminals and they don't see themselves as criminal. Once the FBI gets the 'extra' they will prosecute a few cases with a lot of publicity. It's just a tactic for moving the privacy/criminality boundary one step at a time.

  • Will search engines on college campuses be policed by the FBI as well?
  • by Richard_at_work ( 517087 ) * on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:24PM (#6263966)
    right? Whatever happened to the millions of cases the FBI solved, or prevented crimes, or caught murderers? You never hear about them, so you only get this picture of a bumbling group of people wearing FBI coats.
    • Maybe because your site gives a 403 Forbidden error! ;-)

    • by El Camino SS ( 264212 ) on Sunday June 22, 2003 @10:40AM (#6267286)

      Whatever happened to the millions of cases the FBI solved, or prevented crimes, or caught murderers?

      I deal with them all the time as a newsman. That is their friggin' job. They are the federal police and they catch criminals. They work on high profile cases. That is what they do. Slapping them on the back for a job well done? Then you really are going to wear your arm out slapping everyone else in America on the back as well for doing their job right, and keeping society running. I love those guys, but sucking up to their good points just slows down the process... besides it is a special person that can be in the FBI, they choose them for loyalty and determination.

      If you want to thank anyone in law enforcement, thank the beat cops in major cities, they are the ones that have to shake the tree daily and find the street punks that are the most dangerous to the public at large. FBI can be patient and call in all the people they want, due to the nature of the criminals they are pursuing. Beat cops are the ones that most likely get shot. Some FBI agents I know have their gun in their desk. That is a big difference in law enforcement style.

      Look, the FBI are good guys. But allowing them jurisdiction on a corporate and civil matter is preposterous. It is corporatism. It is where this country is going. Copyright infringement is not outright theft, but it is not allowable either. It is prosecutable, but the FBI sure as hell does not need to be involved in it. They have much bigger fish to fry these days than worrying about file sharing on the internet.
  • Bill Would Let FBI Police File-Sharing

    This is what happens when you let Mahir write the headlines...

    I know what they mean, but I still have mental images of the "FBI Police" sitting around eating donuts and p2p-ing porn...
  • The Corporation's interests must be protected above the people's. After all, where else are you going to get campaign contributions and "gifts" from?

    Nuff Said.

  • Next generation P2P (Score:2, Interesting)

    by headkase ( 533448 )
    What the next generation of P2P needs is the ability for it's users to be anonymous. This could be acomplished by routing all P2P packets through at least one third party node. The third party node is the only node that knows the IP addresses of the two sides and it does not keep any logs. In addition, why not encrypt all network traffic as well.
    Of course as soon as a viable solution exists that makes people anonymous on the internet, no doubt the congress-critters will pass legislation to make it illeg
  • Al Quaida have carried another attack. 3000 dead. FBI agents plan to carry out a full investigation shortly after they jail 14 year old Tommy who is suspected of piracy and crimes against public decency. "Sicko baby" said Officer Pat "He was redistibuting filth, including a full Madonna CD. Makes me want to vomit." Asked to comment on the new Al Quaida atrocity, Pat said "Its just another couple of planes. Been there and seen that before. First, we gotta take down Suzy in Queens first - word on the street is that she's sharing hard-core Justin Timberlake! We gotta protect the kids from that threat."

    Welome to the land of the free and home of the brave.

  • Taunt the FBI just before they get sweeping new powers to police file sharing. They'll be shipping you to Cuba in no time.
  • Let Them! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by argoff ( 142580 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:32PM (#6264001)
    To be honest, I don't think technology is on their side. Other than the occasional string up someone and make an example out of them, or the occasional beat someone down who admits it publicly, I think that 99.99% of the population could share information freely and never be touched.

    In a way that is the point. The purpose of politics (and less directly government) is that it's better to fight wars with words rather than with blood. But to copy things does not require coercion at all, the rules are not the same, we are not dealing with limited resources where when one person gains another looses. They will not get disenfranchised help, they will not get public support, and they will not get personal fufillment helping a bunch of hollywood brats act like the gestapo.
  • by Ars-Fartsica ( 166957 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:32PM (#6264003)
    The FBI is not the "elite" agency they claim. In three years they couldn't find Eric Rudolph, supposedly (at one time) "enemy number one". It took a local beat cop to do the job.

    Its telling that the most auspicious factoid regarding the FBI is that their former leader used to wear dresses.

  • by GrouchoMarx ( 153170 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:36PM (#6264031) Homepage
    If you're taking the time to write a comment on this story, DON'T. Instead, take that same amount of time to write a one page, reasoned, intelligent letter to your Senators (you have two, you know that?) telling them that you disapprove of this bill, telling them WHY (privacy violation, overextension of copyright, and so forth are good places to start), and encouraging them to work against it. Not tomorrow morning, RIGHT NOW. Get away from that Submit button and go write a letter to someone who could actually do something. Then send it snail mail to their LOCAL office (not DC office), or fax it. (Not email. Many offices don't pay attention to email, although some do.)

    I don't want to see any replies to this post. Get away from Slashdot and do something other than whine, or you'll have no one to blame but yourself.






    Are you still here? Stop reading and start acting!

  • Real CD trade (Score:5, Insightful)

    by t_allardyce ( 48447 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:38PM (#6264038) Journal
    No i think they should start at the home - FBI stakeouts should raid teens who lend cd's to their friends. These crack-houses of teen music sharing need to be shut down. This sort of crime has been going on way longer than modern internet file sharing. Infact ever since consumer availiable music and video recordings were availiable people have been illigally "lending" eachother copies. This sort of crime has got to stop. Theres no easy way to police file trading without getting caught up in all sorts of messy 1st amendment, freedom of this and that laws so i think the FBI should concentraite on the more tangable, phyisical and "real" cd swapping going on. Thats just my opinion
  • by Oloryn ( 3236 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:52PM (#6264092)

    This strikes me as a continuation of the cost-shifting that began when sufficient levels of copyright violation were made 'criminal'. The cost of prosecuting a civil case is borne by the plaintiff (i.e. the RIAA). The cost of prosecuting a criminal case is borne by the taxpayer. Hence the criminalisation of copyright violation caused the costs of prosecuting those violations to be shifted from the RIAA et al to the taxpayer.

    This is the same type of thing. The RIAA et al faces fairly high costs in trying to deal with P2P networks. Putting the FBI in charge of policing P2P networks means the taxpayer will be funding those investigations instead of the RIAA.

  • $10,000 rule (Score:4, Interesting)

    by fliplap ( 113705 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:58PM (#6264112) Homepage Journal
    While not an "offical" rule, it is generally regarded that the FBI will not pursue a case unless at _LEAST_ $10k in damages was done. For you normal people and small businesses, this means $10k in _actual_ damages. For example, I believe credit card numbers are given a weight and it takes so many of them to get the FBI to investigate a case of a cracker stealing them. For you little people this does not include the time you wasted dealing with this. However, if you were a big business then it of course does.

    As for this case, the $10k rule doesn't apply since this insane value (up to $250,000? iirc) has been placed on copyright violations. Perhaps if the FBI valued a "stolen" song on what it is actually worth we wouldn't have this problem.

    On top of the insane overvaluing of copyright violations there is the fact that the law doesn't state copyright violation as theft, they didn't actually lose anything. So lets assume that a 15 song CD costs $15 (not that this is accurate). Then a stolen song from the CD should be worth $1, oh for fun we'll say it was the one good song on the album and give it a $2 value. So it would take 5000 of the best songs on 5000 cds to make the FBI even look at the case under normal circumstances.

    Then one would think, wait, $10k worth of damages wasn't actually done. No one was actually deprived of anything besides what they thought they were due. So then we end up with another problem, how much are they actually worth? It gets very complicated and basiclly comes down to what we all knew all along, some is getting bought off.
  • Tax Payers (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Ender77 ( 551980 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @06:59PM (#6264119)
    Is this where our Tax Paying money is going? Is this why we have the FBI? Funny, I thought it was to keep murderers and rapists off the street, you know...DANGEROUS CRIMINALS. I didn't know that they were going to go after the millions of TEENAGERS who are downloading the latest song off the net.

    I must give the RIAA credit though, they finally realized that they could not afford the bill to keep suing people with no money so they bri...er gave campaign contributions to some congressman to make the tax payers pay the bill. Something about the sleaziness of all this that you have to admire.

    What will the FBI do though? The FBI likes to go after people with MONEY or is a high profile person. The majority of users donâ(TM)t fit either of those categories. The FBI will make a big show of going after people at first but one they find out the joys of WHACK-A-MOLE P2P they will only go after the big fish like the riaa is doing anyway.

    I hope this bill donâ(TM)t pass but I am too pessimistic to believe otherwise
  • I really fail to see the point in attacking the FBI. Obviously they have problems, but if we removed all authority from all law enforcement agencies that problems, there would be no cops at all.
  • by bizitch ( 546406 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @07:08PM (#6264153) Homepage
    is eternal vigilance ...

    The problem with Freedom is - you never know what people will actually do with it ... like invent a decentrallized p2p network and then trade files with each other.

    Stay tuned - the war continues ....
  • Those stupid bastards can't stop dumb ass crack monkeys from selling crack, most of these fat doughnut gobbling morons can't even spell "compooter"..

    Like they are going to know what to do....
    Right...
    Hey! Was that a monkey that just flew out of my ass??!!
  • Sade (Score:3, Insightful)

    by executebusiness.com ( 681094 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @07:21PM (#6264241) Homepage Journal
    I went and saw Sade in concert only after hearing an mp3 of hers. My wife and I would NEVER have done that without first hearing her latest music. She's come very far since the eighties.

    The corporate machine is not fascist, or totalitarian. It's greedy, is all. The dummies who want to kill p2p are just shooting themselves in the foot because they aren't smart enought to realize that it BOOSTS the ecconomy. Come on Harvard, where are the papers to back this up!?!
  • The article yesterday about how to get the police involved in a massive hack was instructive. Many posts indicated that even when the threshold $5K provable monetary loss was reached, and the sysadmins had located the suspects - the fbi would do nothing.

    It's amazing. And every description of the FBI resources in the context of fighting terrorism uses the word "thin".

  • The FBI will be too busy for this sort of thing anyway, with Harassing people around Area51 [klas-tv.com]
  • by hpa ( 7948 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @07:58PM (#6264397) Homepage
    Despite the obvious flaws of the FBI, including the Hooverite legacy, let's keep in mind why the police (including the FBI) exist -- to enforce laws, instead of having a bunch of vigilantes enforce the laws in the particular manner they want. Quite frankly the FBI is much more appropriate in this way than all the various "let's deputize copyright holders and let them go out and enforce", including stuff like Palladium and the recent Hollings proposal. Far too many proposals lately have been effectively about creating a corporate police force.
  • Because there isn't ENOUGH out there for the FBI to worry about.
  • The FBI at the very least has to follow due process. They can assume you are guilty based on evidence, but because they are not a civil agency, innocent until proven guilty is the rule. This in it self is great!

    But on the other hand, I really think the FBI has much better things to do then pursue audio piracy. It's hard enough getting them to investigate forms of cybercrime unless you're a business and can demonstrate a dollar amount lost (believe it's $5000 for FBI). While we may get annoyed by this a
  • by nurb432 ( 527695 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @08:11PM (#6264469) Homepage Journal
    Things like this are going to destroy what is left of the Internet. And piss off even more of their 'consumer base'.

    After the commercialization pretty much destroyed what it stood for.

    On a related note, when did it become the problem of the FBI to investigate CIVIL issues?

    Oh wait, its all part of total control of information... nevermind. The whole thing just pisses me off.
  • by chris_7d0h ( 216090 ) on Saturday June 21, 2003 @08:17PM (#6264497) Journal
    This paves the way for some serious contemplation.

    Consider an earlier article published last week, where Sweden was about to enforce draconian IP laws and rights to enforce them. Those laws would lead to their police (and probably other obscure agencies) starting to patrol(1) a lot of Internet services such as p2p networks for example. How would this be received by other nations as there is not simple way of distinguishing a user's nationality from some IP address?
    Let's face it, going down the current path, the US isn't going to be the only country doing massive interception and analysis of communication on the Internet and when the politicians wake up and smell the coffee, this kind of mess will have spiraled far out of their control.

    Ponder this. Does anyone imagine a government capable of intercepting and filtering most communication to be standing on some kind of high moral and ethical ground where a reasoning like "The correct thing for us to do is to only police our own waters for domestic criminal activity" is going be the current agenda?

    No friggin way is my assessment.

    This is paving the way for a situation where espionage(2) is the trade of the day. In a few years when most states have caught up with any current technological forerunners there are, in my view, going to be only two choices. Either you encrypt all traffic(3), allowing you some kind of domestic protection, or you will have no protection at all.

    The future in my view looks rather bleak if certain politicians and their fellow lobbyists are going to have their way. As I see it, the first ones to realize this problem has been the same type of people making the technological measures allowing such potential abuse, tech-savy folks such as some members of this blog. Mr. and Mrs. Clueless will be the first ones lined up against the wall as they will be caught off guard, unaware of how technology works and how it can be abused and thus unable to protect themselves from the private agendas of those with monetary and political power.

    As a final Note. Most know that the last 9 in 99.999% availability figure is extremely expensive to obtain. Likewise, getting the last 9 when it comes to making people law-abiding(4) is going to be infinitely more expensive both from a monetary cost and most importantly, the cost of lost freedom...
    As many of us know, the only information system totally secure is a system without external interfaces. The only secure(5) or safe society is a society without a mind of it's own, without free thought.

    Which society do you wish the future to hold?


    1. Meaning intercepting and scanning.
    2. Of foreign power, corporate and any entity which the people with the means might be interested in for one reason or another.
    3. Since modules in a computer system co-exist and make use of each other more and more for various tasks, it's getting harder and harder to know what component is transmitting what information and thus the only way to feel some kind of security is to only allow encrypted traffic.
    4. Be it a valid law supported by the majority of the citizen or not.
    5. Also known as "safe" or "convenient" in some corporate lingo.

  • by alizard ( 107678 ) <alizard.ecis@com> on Saturday June 21, 2003 @09:35PM (#6264844) Homepage
    Nice to see that digital file-sharing, i.e. the digital version of analog tape-swapping which *is* legal is just as important as kidnapping, bank robbery, and terrorism.

    Will not paying parking tickets also become a Federal crime next?

    Do politicians have a clue as to why they don't have the public's respect anymore?

    Perhaps they've proven they don't deserve it.

    Just think. If anyone had come forward last year to put up the startup money for a professionally run high-tech PAC to represent us to Congress, we'd be talking this year about getting the votes together to get rid of the DMCA and any politician stupid enough to refuse to cooperate with us.

    "People always get the local government they deserve."
    E.E. "Doc" Smith

    This is as a grim a comment about US geeks (and the ones who aren't doing anything about anti-tech political action in the EU) as can be made.

  • by Zhe Mappel ( 607548 ) on Sunday June 22, 2003 @12:58AM (#6265626)
    Sure, arguably the bulk of US law enforcement already serves the propertied classes, ever scurrying on missions to keep the privileged from the clutches of the unprivileged. Rarely is the reverse ever true. Just witness the Enron scandal: not even Fox-TV watching Americans are brainwashed enough to escape realizing what a swindle occurred there, but just watch as our corporate media report how "difficult" it is to police corporate crime because the issues are so "complicated" - true only insomuch as the criminal laws have been skewed to make such prosecutions unlikely, this for the benefit of so-called free enterprise.

    The current legislation proposes something very old-fashioned: the privatization, in a sense, of our law enforcement. Oh, the FBI would still be publicly funded, but essentially their mission would be reconstituted to make them the private police force of immensely wealthy copyright holders. We'd have a situation analogous in substance to 19th century America, with its strike-breaking private cops doing the bidding of their factory masters. Not only would the FBI be the servant of the music, movie and software companies, flattening any and all freedoms that thwart the perfect and unfettered progress of business (while also forging the kinds of interconnectedness that would make it politically and legally hard ever to police those industries).

    But more drastically, the FBI would become a tool used to correct a failure of the marketplace: it would become the bludgeon that stops the consumer revolt that is embodied in online file trading - expunging, through intrusion and harassment, any impulse but that of proper obedience. Is a generation of future American debtors missing the lesson of arbeit macht frei? Then the FBI will be called in to teach them the fundamentals!

    Mind, this is of a piece with Hatch's outburst last week about destroying downloaders' computers. Such is Washington's obsequiousness before the power it serves, and so deep runs its contempt for the freedoms of average citizens. (It's all fine and good to trot out your defense secretary to call freedom "messy" when it's overseas; but here, of course, here we send in the G-Men.) The Net has allowed the little person a measure of freedom not dreamt of in the corridors of our oligarchy. I don't expect our rulers to rest until they've brought this democratic, not to say anarchical, spirit to heel.

  • by TygerFish ( 176957 ) on Sunday June 22, 2003 @07:47AM (#6266467)
    Determining what is and is not âbusiness-as-usualâ(TM) is difficult with nothing more than a blurb-length report to go on.

    There have been a lot of threads here, some philosophically/politically loaded with arguments of varying quality: the first thread talked about control of the economy under Mussoliniâ(TM)s Fascism. Another attacked that one, praising raw capitalism while yet another early note gave what might or might not be an informed view of how the Naziâ(TM)s handled capitalism under the third Reich. Somehow, the subject became very dramatic and youâ(TM)ve got to ask if high drama is justifiable when you look at the core of the thing.

    Without drama, there are good reasons to say that there is nothing new in the FBI being made to favor the interests of American businessâ"even businesses whose actions are as loathsome as the music industryâ(TM)s with regard to file-sharing. The proposition of the bill can be looked at as a (sad) comment on the nature of our government: people and organizations with vast sums have influence which often overrides the interests of the massesâ"thatâ(TM)s, âyou and me,â(TM) bud.

    We live in a representative democracy and the systemâ(TM)s oddest and ugliest flaw is that wealthy people and organizations direct the actions of government more directly, and more immediately than the slower processes of ordinary governance: this is the âno surpriseâ(TM) factor. The FBI is directed by the federal government, the federal government is run by societyâ(TM)s loudest voices and money is an amplifier that drowns out other voices (If you think this is untrue, you probably like the âBig-Mac-for-you/your salary-x-ten for them,â(TM) tax-cuts).

    In the final analysis, it really is a matter of voices. Many of us want to say, âthe music industry has been at the trough for too long and the net has changed everything.â(TM) For their part, maybe a dozen multibillion-dollar corporations with the money to make a politicianâ(TM)s re-election campaigns with their contributions alone want the government to wage a campaign to frighten nameless, faceless people who are costing them money.

    This raises two key questions: âWhy is this surprising news?â(TM) and âWhom do you expect to win?â(TM)

"Of course power tools and alcohol don't mix. Everyone knows power tools aren't soluble in alcohol..." -- Crazy Nigel

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