TiVo To Sell Customer Data 469
camusflage writes "Yahoo has a story that details TiVo's plans to sell customer data to advertisers and broadcasters. While individuals will be anonymous, data will be made available in aggregate form, including ZIP code. The San Jose Mercury News has additional coverage on the news."
Good for them... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good for them... (Score:5, Insightful)
Last time I checked - they were a 'for profit' business... monthly fees + selling of data = more profit ~= happier shareholders.
Re:Good for them... (Score:5, Insightful)
Nice and psychological (Score:3, Interesting)
I love the "I paid more for it so it must be better" effect. My favorite example (outside of IT purchasing practices) was a weight loss formula sold on TV. Their main justification for charging $150/bottle was that you wouldn't pay that if it didn't wo
Re:Good for them... (Score:4, Funny)
Right.... and monkeys will fly out of my butt. And hell? That's right. Frozen over.
Re:Good for them... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Good for them... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Good for them... (Score:5, Informative)
I should also point out that users have the option of opting in 'fully', or opting out 'fully' of data sharing. Most users stick with the default 'anonymous only' privacy option for their account. Probably because it's the default, and you have to ask customer service to change this one way or the other. Through maybe it's a question when you activate your account (I forget).
Re:Good for us (Score:5, Funny)
Nerd viewing habits will be a force to be reckoned with.
Don't write letters to networks and advertisers - VOTE for your favorite shows with your TiVo!
Re:Good for us (Score:5, Interesting)
The big deal is TiVo suicide. (Score:4, Funny)
Oops.
Re:Good for them... (Score:2)
Just because you have 6 characters, and some are alpha, doesn't give you nearly enough to get down to the apartment building, eh!
Demographics are not an invasion of privacy. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Demographics are not an invasion of privacy. (Score:4, Interesting)
Then why do people need to write the rest of my address on the envelope? Zip+4 may in some cases may indicate as much as the same apartment building (if it has sufficient units) or resolve to the same single-family house if you happen to be the only house for miles around (in which case you probably never use the +4) but I doubt these cases are abundant.
However, you do have an interesting point...
Re:Demographics are not an invasion of privacy. (Score:2)
My parents live in a smaller town (population 700) their zip+4 resolves to their house.
Re:Demographics are not an invasion of privacy. (Score:3, Informative)
Not really- it can, but most cases it doesnt.
http://www.usps.com/zip4/zipfaq.htm [usps.com]
Re:Demographics are not an invasion of privacy. (Score:5, Informative)
Not quite... taken from USPS [usps.com]
Q. Why are ZIP+4 Codes used?
A. In 1983, the Postal Service began using an expanded ZIP Code called "ZIP+4." A ZIP+4 Code consists of the original 5-digit ZIP Code plus a 4-digit add-on code. The 4-digit add-on number identifies a geographic segment within the 5-digit delivery area, such as a city block, office building, individual high-volume receiver of mail, or any other unit that would aid efficient mail sorting and delivery. Use of the 4-digit add-on is not mandatory, but it helps the Postal Service direct mail more efficiently and accurately because it reduces handling and significantly decreases the potential for human error and possibility of misdelivery. It also will lead to better control over USPS costs and, in turn, postage rate stability. ZIP+4 is intended for use primarily by business mailers who prepare their mail with typewritten, machine-printed, or computerized addressing formats that can be read by the Postal Service's automated scanners during processing. Mailers who qualify receive a rate discount on First-Class, non-presorted, ZIP+4 mailings of at least 250 pieces and on presorted ZIP+4 mailings of at least 500 pieces. There are also ZIP+4 discounts for bulk business mail.
Re:Demographics are not an invasion of privacy. (Score:2, Redundant)
ZIP+4 does not resolve to a single house. It resolves to a block of houses, or in the case of apartments, a group of apartments.
Check the related USPS FAQ [usps.com] about ZIP+4 codes.
Re:Demographics are not an invasion of privacy. (Score:2)
True, maybe I over-generalized in saying that ZIP+4 resolves to a house - it does not ALWAYS resolve to a house, but it frequently DOES.
And that is why I made the point about ZIP vx. ZIP+4 - when ANYBODY says that "oh, we aggregate the data to a ZIP code, nothing to worry about", IF by "ZIP Code" they mean "ZIP+4 code" then their "aggregation" may be to a house level.
Re:Demographics are not an invasion of privacy. (Score:5, Insightful)
This one statement almost completely sums up most of what is wrong with the mentality of Slashdot. You have one experience where ZIP+4 resolves to your house and your house only, so you generalize it to mean that it does for everyone. When people point out that it does not for everyone, you retract your statement, only to replace it by another one in which you no data. If you see some of the other posts here, linking to the USPS web site, you will see that for most people, it does not link to a particular house.
Re:Demographics are not an invasion of privacy. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Demographics are not an invasion of privacy. (Score:3, Insightful)
Key word: aggregate (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Key word: aggregate (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Key word: aggregate (Score:2)
There is nothing that says TiVo can't do something like that. Given the relatively slow adoption of the service, the lack of price decreases for the hardware, lack of a real advertising campaign (in CT where I live 45min from NYC), and diminishing competition, I see this sort of slippery slope cenario to be a val
Re:Key word: aggregate (Score:4, Insightful)
They've been very open with us on this issue. They've given no reason not to trust them.
Re:Key word: aggregate (Score:4, Funny)
Besides, as many people in the non
Re:Key word: aggregate (Score:2)
As to the policies of a company, they change. Some for the better, most for the worse
Re:Key word: aggregate (Score:5, Insightful)
I would argue that it is. With 700,000 households, it is 350 times larger than the highly influential Nielsen Media Research sample size. (See http://www.nielsenmedia.com/FAQ/ [nielsenmedia.com])
Not a problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Nothing to see here. Move along.
Aggregate data is fine, for the most part (obviously, if your consumer base is 5 people, there might be an issue), but for this, I don't see the problem. And I'm a serious privacy advocate...
Exactly right. (Score:5, Interesting)
This allows us to do trending and catch things that would otherwise be impossible.
Trending is good when it's aggregate data. When the book police come to your door it's bad.
Re:Not a problem (Score:2)
No issue there either because, in practice, noone will ever buy a demographic for 5 people.
Re:Not a problem (Score:2)
Sand, gravel, crushed stone and quarried rock used for construction purposes.
http://www.em.gov.bc.ca/Mining/MiningSt ats/Aggrega te%20BMP%20Handbook/Chapters/A-1_Glossary.pdf
Although this is probably what you want:
aggregate
In general, to aggregate (verb, from Latin aggregare meaning to add to) is to collect things together. An aggregate (adjective) thing is a collection of other things. An aggregation is a collection.
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_ gc i214504,0
Nothing to see... Move along. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Nothing to see... Move along. (Score:2)
pr0n (Score:5, Funny)
Re:pr0n (Score:2)
Where do I sign up for TiVO?
Hasn't this happened before? (Score:5, Informative)
I wish I could say I was surprised.... (Score:3, Interesting)
I wonder if TiVo includes any data like "we know that such-and-such in this zip code makes between 40,000-80,000 a year and has 2.3 kids, etc."
Is there an opt-out feature? Can I keep the anonymous data from getting to TiVo the first place (apart from unplugging the unit)?
Re:I wish I could say I was surprised.... (Score:5, Insightful)
TiVo knows that I make more than $155.88/year, but I haven't given them an indication of how much more.
And yes, there's an opt out feature in the TiVo, so you can have your viewing statistics removed from your zip code. Big win for privacy.
Re:I wish I could say I was surprised.... (Score:2)
I wish I could give a big three-thumbs up to this comment...
Re:I wish I could say I was surprised.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure lots of us would like to see that data, but if they made it available to us for free, that would kinda negate the possibility of them SELLING the data for $$$, you know? Contact Tivo and I'm sure they'll get together a quote for you and you could purchase the data too.
Is there an opt-out feature?
Yes, you can call Tivo and opt-out, should you choose. It's quick and hassle free, I know lots of other Tivo owners who have done that.
Personally, I haven't opted out. I've seen the data that is sent to Tivo, it can't be tracked to me individually, and I'd like Tivo to be able to make a buck so they don't go out of business.
Really folks, this isn't a paranoid, tinfoil hat issue. It's just business, and Tivo's model seems far more ethical than most. I'm more than happy to help them out. It doesn't cost me anything.
Re:I wish I could say I was surprised.... (Score:3, Informative)
That's where ACORN cluster data [esribis.com] comes in handy...
Re:I wish I could say I was surprised.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Other people have already mentioned that you can opt-out by calling TiVo. What they haven't mentioned is that when you do so, your TiVo stops uploading the viewing data altogether. I think there was some technical/debugging logs that might've still been sent though. It's been awhile since I've read up on it, but you can probably find more information on one of the TiVo hack
Re:I wish I could say I was surprised.... (Score:2)
And I assume you mean this is bad, because I also assume it is this data that provides the recommended viewing?
Weren't they already doing this? (Score:3, Insightful)
Either way, it's yet another reason to buy a TiVo instead of building your own (yes, I wrote that correctly). If you're using a TiVo companies will be paying attention to what you watch and potentially using the info to determine what to put on in the future. Build your own and they won't.
Re:Weren't they already doing this? (Score:2)
Re:Weren't they already doing this? (Score:2)
You know, they make shows for many types of viewers. You can't expect *all* the shows to be made for your tastes. At least nobody's forcing you to actually watch Joe Millionaire. For now at least...
Opt Out Option (Score:5, Informative)
Mike
Re:Opt Out Option (Score:2)
Re:Opt Out Option (Score:2)
That is a good idea for privacy, but to be realistic, most people don't give a hoot for their privacy (or lack thereof) on something as benign as viewing habits. That means that very few (if any) people would opt-in or even know how to, not making it worth their time to insert that data collecting "feature."
Last I checked... (Score:3, Insightful)
Kjella
No real news here (Score:3, Insightful)
This is a Good Thing.... (Score:2, Funny)
The more junk mail we get, the better -- we can line all the cages and not feel guilty about wasting paper!
And why do we have Tivo in the store?
Animal Planet, baby!!! :-)
Re:This is a Good Thing.... (Score:2)
Chinchilla's deserve sawdust and at the very least straw. What kind of animal are you to let them live in/on paper.
Re:This is a Good Thing.... (Score:2)
Hey, c'mon! at least it gives them something to read while they are going to the bathroom!
OK this is not terrible... (Score:4, Interesting)
oh great (Score:5, Funny)
Funny hack opportunities (Score:5, Funny)
And if this bothers you... (Score:2, Funny)
John
Not a big deal. (Score:5, Interesting)
I care if Tivo sells a list of the programs to watch to a local advertiser who will then call me on the phone, bang on my door, or spam me with "special offers just for me." Tivo, in that case, is attempting to act as a middleman in setting up a business relationship that I have no interest in.
I do not care if Tivo sells data about how many people in California, or even my ZIP code, watched Buffy last night.
Now, there are issues with privacy policies; if Tivo has said that they wouldn't do this and then have, they've lied to their customers, and even the most paranoid privacy freak has a right to expect companies to live up their word.
But really, there are enough *very* significant privacy issues today that relate to *government* spying on *individuals* with no probably cause, warrant, etc.
I'm not at all sure that groups, such as "everyone who lives in my ZIP code" are, or should be, entitled to the same level of privacy protection that individuals deserve.
I mean, if I go down to the street corner and count how many people push the "push to cross" button and then sell that data to the people who make "push to cross" buttons, am I somehow violating peoples' privacy? If I do it in 10 cities? 100? Does it matter if I'm incorporated and have employees or not?
I'm willing to hear the other side, and I certainly subscribe to the slippery-slope argument, but for the most part I think this kind of corporate aggregation of data is at most a very minor concern in a world filled with huge privacy issues.
Cheers
-b
Cool with me. (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't watch ads. Period. I watch a few good shows, and I ignore the rest.
On a larger scale, my dream would be for the entire system of free-but-with-forced-ad-watching television to fall to pieces. Sure, it might mean the end of television as mass-media, but it would also force a lot of mouth-breathers to do something other than watch TV every night.
Of course, I'm pretty tired right now, so make what you will of the preceding. ^_~
And again (Score:5, Insightful)
Again I say, Tivo selling the viewing info is a GOOD THING. I am tired of shows I like getting cancelled for lack of Neilson ratings. I've never been nor have I even known a Neilson family. I don't like the fact that someone else is deciding what's good TV and what should be cancelled.
This will broaden the base of input for TV ratings. Another plus, Tivo owners tend to be geekish. This will most likely help the rating and staying power of shows that geeks watch (sci-fi to be specific). Maybe we finally have a fighting chance against inane 30 minute sitcoms and 'reality' TV.
Focused Advertising (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Focused Advertising (Score:2)
Re:Focused Advertising (Score:3, Funny)
Scenario 1: Tivo sends you (a young guy) ads about beer, SUVs, and Levi's jeans. It sends the woman in the apartment down the hall ads for women's clothing.
Scenario 2: Because of interesting purchases, viewing habits, whatever on your part, it sends you ads for women's clothing.
Scenario 3: For the same reason, it sends you those same ads, and your buds come over to watch the football game on your bigscreen TV. *Insert awkwa
Re:Focused Advertising (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Focused Advertising (Score:2)
Re:Focused Advertising (Score:2)
Select-Play-Select-3-0-Select
No more commercials for me!
Re:Focused Advertising (Score:2)
Only if that's what all your neighbors watch also! GOd help you if you are the only person that hates that stuff in a community. Now EVERY ad will be offensive and NO ad will be anything you "want" to see. This is the dark side of generic location based advertising (Not that they don do that now to some degree)
I'm tired of this (Score:5, Interesting)
TiVo has been selling your demographic data for years. Superbowl advertisers bought information from TiVo to see which Brittney Spears commercial got the most replay and in which kinds of households.
This has absolutely nothing to do with an infrigement of rights, as it all strictly adheres to an agreement between customer and provider made fully clear at the time of purchase.
To offset the costs of building and maintaining a complicated system that provides an excellent service to consumers they sell information on their demographics. Anyone wanna tell me how that makes them evil all of a sudden?
...may I have another? (Score:3, Insightful)
more for the subscription that doesn't really pay
for content, just indexing and the privilege of them
not disabling the box that you paid for. All of this in
order to watch commercial-filled television that you
are also paying your sat or cable company even more
money for, all tied up in a DRM wrapper.
Now, they are collecting your stats, your private life
(as collected on the box you paid for, perhaps continually),
and selling it. And people here think it's great because
(at least today) it's not directly tied to your name.
Boy, that TV must be really great stuff.
Re:...may I have another? (Score:5, Insightful)
1) If you fail to subscribe to the TiVo service, they don't in any way shape or form disable your box. Of course, you don't have access to the subscription information, or software updates, which are what the service pays for, and which are in my personal opinion well worth the cost of the service.
2) You've apparently never used a TiVo. Most TiVo users rarely ever watch commercials. They fast forward through them because they're watching things that have been previously recorded.
3) The TiVo doesn't have any DRM. It's on-disk data format is undocumented, but if you look online you can find software that has figured out how to extract it. There is, however, no encryption, and nothing that keeps you from duping something on your TiVo off onto a VCR tape (in fact the TiVo has some features that make that process easier).
4) From the beginning, TiVo has always reserved the right to sell aggregate data, and has always promised to protect individual data. Nothing has changed. It is also unlikely that anything will change, because individual data is next to worthless. No one cares whether or not you watch American Idol. They only care what percentage of 18-30 year olds watch American Idol. The bad PR that TiVo would receive would never be worth the value of selling individual data.
I know this isn't a popular view but... (Score:2)
So frankly, pretty much any data collection gets my approval, as long as anonymity is preserved. Really, the specific data is the least useful. Who cares what one guy does? There is no reason to collect that data except for the express purpose of violating someones privacy. Now tell me what every guy between 20 and 30 is doi
Who doesn't sell data ? (Score:4, Insightful)
OSDN may use accumulated aggregate data for several purposes including, but not limited to, marketing analysis, evaluation of OSDN's services, and business planning.
There is no prohibition against selling it to other parties. So why the cry of wolf ? I'm pretty sure that if someone found aggregate Slashdot information useful, OSDN would be - or is - selling it. And I don't care. Is it a violation of my privacy if some marketing firm studies aggregate customer behavior in a store and discovers that the majority of customers turn right when they enter ? I don't think it is, and that sort of aggregate research is happening all the time.
Ain't no thing.... (Score:5, Insightful)
2. TiVo could become more relevant that Neilsen data. Imagine, they can break down for networks what was recorded vs. what was actually watched, when it was watched, and what commercials were watched while viewing. Combine this with the fact (here's where TiVo shareholder's laugh with glee) that I will PAY THEM to LET THEM track this data, and be happy to do so, it's a win win for the company and the consumer.
TiVo truly does put one in control of their viewing. If they want to gather a little data, virtually anonymously, fine by me.
Both Good and Bad (Score:2)
However, should the stations use this information in the same manner as they use the neilson stuff (which I assume is regulated in distribution somehow) then what's to keep some production company from buying a bunch
Well, Duh. (Score:2)
TiVo has been saying they're doing to do this for years now. It's always been planned to do this by zip code with no names. Yeah, it's really going to suck. They're (The networks) are going to figure out what we like and make MORE OF IT! Yeah, we're screwed over on this one, alright.
TiVo users are probably very heavily in the tech. industry. That means our shows are probably pretty similar. Family Guy, Futurama, John Doe (maybe), The Agency...
How Tivo Ruined my life - A potentially true story (Score:5, Funny)
Partridge Family fan and then I'll be a target for the next layoff and then I'll be laid off and then I'll lose my house and then my wife will leave me and then I'll get beat up at the rescue mission over a bottle of MD20-20 and then they'll put impants in my brain at the emergency room and then the CIA will transmit orders to me through PBS and then I'll have to wear aluminum foil on my head all the time and then that won't matter because while I am laying in the gutter on skid row George W. Bush and Dick Cheney will send a UFO to abduct me and then I'll get probed (ouch) and then the aliens will clone me and then the clone will take over my old life and then I'll be a slave in the methane mines on Altair IV and then I'll get spaced by a slorg monster and then I'll die. All because of Tivo.
(I posted this to Usenet a while back, but since the privacy hysteria is starting again, I thought I would outline the threat as seen by some.)
About time..... (Score:2)
I am absolutely serious. That is the data Tivo needs to be selling.
As a Tivo owner, I like this (Score:4, Interesting)
I like it because I think it will show several interesting things about viewing habits. I think they will find that quality shows tend to have more loyal viewers than cheaper programming. I think they will also find that Tivo owners *do* watch some commercials, and that commercials are much more likely to be watched if they are *good*. I would hope than advertisers are smarter than we give them credit for, and I expect they won't mind, for example, if men fast forward past commercials for women's products.
Give me choice - and we all win (Score:3, Insightful)
in fact, all that can happen from this is a) increase revenue/profits for a kick-ass outfit like TiVo (we're still sorta in a capitalist society here, aren't we?) b) reduce my bill.
Both are a win.
Hell, if they wanted to identify it down to me (Nielsen?) and charge me nothing for the service.. i'd be up for that.
but that's me. If you'd not be down with that, then they should not have any right to do that.
and since they are not, this is a GOOD news story, not a BAD news story.
stick it to the Nielsens... (Score:5, Interesting)
Customer data? Damn straight (Score:3, Funny)
Mr. Iwanyk, 32 years old, first suspected that his TiVo thought he was gay, since it inexplicably kept recording programs with gay themes. A film studio executive in Los Angeles and the self-described "straightest guy on earth," he tried to tame TiVo's gay fixation by recording war movies and other "guy stuff."
"The problem was, I overcompensated," he says. "It started giving me documentaries on Joseph Goebbels and Adolf Eichmann. It stopped thinking I was gay and decided I was a crazy guy reminiscing about the Third Reich."
Not so sure the Tivo data is worth much.
Selling info? Good idea! (Score:4, Insightful)
"Aggregate" data by 5-digit zip code is not enough to personally identify you. It's like watching log-ins by IP address. You get liumped with everybody else who was watching Smallville or Buffy reruns.
Marketing is ESSENTIAL to support broadcast TV as we know it. Someone has to pay for all those production costs, and right now it is the advertisers. I like it that way. TIVO and other time-shifting technologies scare advertisers and TV producers because they see costs rising and revenues dwindling.
Companies waste a lot of money on advertising because they don't know what commercials "work" (or are at least watched). If they could get fast feedback, maybe the really stupid and pointless commercials would go away faster. If they could get better at spotting what ads are getting viewed/skipped on what shows, maybe the shows wouldn't go away for lack of advertisers.
Here's your chance guys . . . (Score:3, Insightful)
Build a filter device if you don't like it (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Wow (Score:5, Funny)
NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR PARTICULAR VIEWING HABITS.
take off your tin-foil hat now.
Re:Wow (Score:3, Insightful)
You didn't even read the summary, let alone the article. As long as they do not use any of your personal information, they are not invading your privacy. This is no more invasive than reading web server logfiles.
Re:Wow (Score:5, Funny)
So they can tell that three thousand people in your zip code watched American Idol... they're not going to be able to conclusively proove *you* have no taste.
Re:Wow (Score:2)
They don't have access to your TV viewing habits. They have access to your zip code's TV viewing habits, which happens to include you. This should hardly upset you, as it doesn't really concern you, as an individual.
Re:Wow (Score:2)
Sincerely,
A Concerned NIMBY
Re:Wow (Score:5, Informative)
Why not? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why not? (Score:3, Funny)
And that would be... what, exactly?
I missed a meeting, tell me what I'm supposed to be watching in order to keep my membership card.
Re:Wow (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Kickback? (Score:2)
Well, you're missing the fact that TiVo isn't exactly raking in the cash to begin with. Selling anonymous viewing data might be the thing to get them in the black without having to resort to raising prices.
Re:Kickback? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Frankly, I'm shocked (Score:5, Insightful)
Tivo, on the other hand, has been very open and honest about their business and their hardware. They've never lied or attempted to be dishonest in any way. They've always been respectful of their cusotmers and made a good-faith effort to communicate with them. Also, they've respected the hacker community and the hacker community has respected them in turn. This has brought about a lot of great enhancements for the series one unit and the company has been good about listenting to their customers and what they want.
Tivo has stated since day one that they collect informtation, detailed what information they collect, and have provided a way to opt out. They've also stated that they would probably sell the information at some later point. People have verified that Tivo is telling the truth in regards to what information they collect and send back to their servers.
Tivo has earned most customers respect whereas Microsoft seems almost proud that they have not.
Re:Frankly, I'm shocked (Score:3, Insightful)
How about a different question -- what do I fear to lose from this? Wow, they'll learn that 40% of the people in zip code 00000 that can afford a Tivo watch Survivor, or have season passes to Buffy. And I'm worried, why?