Auto Black-Box Data Being Used In Court 369
DrEnter writes "Yahoo! is running this USAToday article about automobile electronic data recorder (EDR or "black-box") data being used in civil and criminal court cases. Most owners of cars so equipped don't know they have them, or that they can be used against them. The NHTSA has been investigating EDRs and is collecting public comments to determine if and how these devices should be regulated."
Great article (Score:3, Informative)
A couple views (Score:5, Interesting)
On one hand, if black box data is used against you, you could claim discrimination since not all cars have the boxes and therefore you are being punished to a greater extent as a direct result of the car you chose to purchase.
On the other hand, I think it would be a good idea (Big Brother paranoia aside) for the industry to create a standard for what kind of dasta is collected and mandate the use of these devices on all new cars. Unbiased witnesses in courtrooms is badly needed these days due to blatant disregard for truth and justice.
Now how do you stop Big Brother from tapping this info? You KNOW they're gonna wanna give this thing an IP address that maps to your Social Security Number and is able to broadcast on wireless networks...
*most* cars do already have them (Score:3, Informative)
"They were installed on newer-model cars to trigger air bags."
That is absolutely stoopid statement. Its a sensationalist word bending cart_before_the_horse statement. A black box does not trigger an airbag. But all airbag modules record data in order to carry out their business.
In any event, an airbag module does indeed record a little data like if your seatbelt is on so it can adjust the blow of the bag accordingly. But yes, I would be surpris
Re:*most* cars do already have them (Score:3, Insightful)
All you have to do is sense the seatbelt connection (or position), not remember it. You can do this in realtime, and I would be very surprised if they d
Re:*most* cars do already have them (Score:3, Interesting)
Supposedly the new U
anything you say (Score:2, Funny)
Since nobody else posted it (Score:3, Interesting)
BTW, you're using a public highway supposedly in compliance with law. The argument that this is an invasion of privacy stinks. If a cop or a whitness sees you doing it, its a legitimate infraction but if you're car records you doing it its an invasion
Hmm (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Hmm (Score:2, Interesting)
why would car companies add this feature if there were no reason for the consumer to want it? with all the cost-cutting things the car comopanies already go th
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm glad they're in there. I can't see that it's a privacy issue; if there's an accident, everyone already knows where I was anyway! I think what people are worried about is that they'll actually be blamed for their irresponsible driving. Well, frankly, airline pilots have had to live with that for years, because they have the responsibility for others' lives. Anyone driving a car is in the same boat--you have a responsibility for your life and the lives of other motorists.
The other side of it is that they can provide useful diagnostic information when your engine is malfunctioning. I've been wanting to buy one of those things that hooks up to the OBD and records the information in my laptop.
--RJ
Re:Hmm (Score:2)
If that were the GOAL, they'd be TELLING PEOPLE ABOUT these things...
Saying that these devices are for "safety" is as big a lie as saying that cops set up speed traps (where they try to hide th
Privacy is dead: welcome to the Internet (Score:3, Interesting)
While many thinkers have hearlded the dawning of this new information age as a way of having open access to art, history, science, the media, government, and other sources, they have in general failed to imagine the "negative" aspects of this openness: that wants you get it going, nothing can stop it. Further, you're the next target.
Now, you might be like me, an ordinary guy, just sitting at the computer, eating a Cadbury bar and drinking water, not thinking about your privacy, but at any given moment, you're information is being traded behind your back by any number of coporations, banks, government agencies, and private citizens. But should you be concerned?
Looking out the window, I see no black helicopters flying overhead. No g-men are breaking down my door to arrest me for having bootleg CDs. In fact, my life is no different than before. Sure, I get spam, sometimes, and tagreted banner ads, but spam gets deleted and I can just use IJB anyway. If these are you biggest problems, consider yourself lucky.
Personally, I think the privacy freaks have it all wrong. With the Internet, all digital material, including your personal info, can't be contained. So what if advertisers know that you're a raving Linux zealot? Isn't it their business to know how to offer you consumer goods targeted at tech-savvy buyers? As far as I'm concerned, the Internet and capitalism go hand-in-hand, and this exchange of information will help capitalism, which will in turn help out the Internet far more than government robots like Gore or George "there ought to be limits to freedom" Bush. Your privacy is long gone, but right now we can at least enjoy the benefits that it brings, as long as the U.S. government doesn't screw something up (I'm speaking as and for USians now).
So you have a choice: you can either accept your loss of privacy and get the great economic and technological benefits that it brings, or attempt to cripple the system with laws, which won't bring back your lost privacy anyway. Remember, it was us, the geeks, who wanted free information. This is our reward. Let's use it wisely.
Re:Privacy is dead: welcome to the Internet (Score:5, Funny)
WHAT THE....!?! (Score:2)
Fraud??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Fraud??? (Score:2)
Like just about anything out there, the more something comes under the public eye, the more measures are used to secure it.
Nobody ever thought of methods of proving a users identity back when email was first used. This was back when most of the people who used the net were actually honorable, and spam was a reprocessed meat, not an annoying message.
Re:Fraud??? (Score:4, Insightful)
- Redesign/retool software and hardware technology to handle encryption
(the US alone produces 15 million cars per year, just 25% of world production [autointell.net])
- Retrofit 40 million existing cars to encrypt the data
- Prove or disprove that the data on 40 million existing computers is suspect and should be ignored
- Pass laws with stiff penalties to discourage hacking, which probably wouldn't stop it
- Trust millions of mechanics not to share the decryption software or somehow prevent it's piracy (we all know how hard that is)
I don't hink it's going to happen for quite a while. Auto makers will pick security through obscurity/obfuscation before they spend money on an insurance industry dilema.Re:Fraud??? (Score:3, Insightful)
If I own the car (and hence the box) shouldn't I be allowed to hack it, or remove it from my system if I want to?
Re:Fraud??? (Score:2)
Re:Fraud??? (Score:2)
However, cars have all of that government mandated emissions control crap that is required and is a federal offense to remove/tamper. This intrusion could be extended to the computer, I suspect, in the same manner you outlined since the computer is part of
Re:Fraud??? (Score:2)
Re:Fraud??? (Score:2)
I'm really glad I live in Germany, where there are things like TüV to prevent you from endangering me.
Re:Fraud??? (Score:2)
Insurance companies (Score:2)
Insurance companies, ever seeking more money from people's pockets are likely behind this.
Indeed, given that insurance companies can JACK UP your rates beyond your means if you refuse to have one of these things, and auto insurance is REQUIRED BY LAW in most states, one must wonder if the insurance companies are becoming "de facto" government actors?
GPS Information... (Score:2, Interesting)
--etrnl--
Re:GPS Information... (Score:2)
How I beat the GPS speeding fine system (Score:2)
With the money I saved from that fine, I was able to upgrade my graphics card AND sound card on my computer. You wouldn't believe the difference that makes when playing GTA3.
And yes, that is a variation of a much older drunk driving joke.
Man and his family co
Re:GPS Information... (Score:2)
I'm thinking maybe I'll just keep my old '92 cavalier instead of buying new after all.
I suspect that unless a law requires such a device, (don't think it won't happen), no one will buy cars knowing that such a device is in it.
Using data in court (Score:5, Interesting)
If the government is able to have access to this data without a warrant, that would be unconstitutional, and might be a "Get Out of Jail Free" card. Even the patriot act doesn't allow that.
Re:Using data in court (Score:2, Informative)
So always look at the little print on those car rental contracts....
Re:Using data in court (Score:2)
In most US states, they have what is called a 'Hot Persuit' law. Basically, if a cop chases a bank robber into your house and finds you with 100 pounds of weed, you go to jail. This is legal and has been tested thoroughly in a court of law. The policeman did not have, or need, a warrant to enter your house. In Portland, OR, a Portland Trailblazer(NBA basketball, for you geeks w/o TV's) team player's house alarm went off. When the squad car showed up, the front door was unlocked but it didn
A good tech safety feature, not a privacy problem (Score:5, Interesting)
This isn't some nasty privacy thing - cars are dangerous things. If someone is driving like an idiot and causes an accident, they need to be banned from driving, and if these black boxes - which only record the last five seconds of data before the airbag inflates anyway - are the only way to get the evidence to do so, then so be it. Conversely of course, if the other driver claims you were speeding and your black box records that you were doing 30mph in the last five seconds, it'll let you off the hook.
These things aren't recording your speed over large periods of time, they aren't downloading info to any police car that asks for it, they aren't transmitting your position to some control centre. So the engineer can look at it, so what, he/she gets to see how slowly you drove the car across their service station forecourt. So at the moment, I see them as nothing but good.
Re:A good tech safety feature, not a privacy probl (Score:5, Insightful)
Simple. Because now my next hack plans are to see what I can do to either disable that box, or to fix the data going to it. I expect I'm just one in a soon to be large pool of people hacking their cars.
Wouldn't it be neat to go -20 km/h all the time!
>So at the moment, I see them as nothing but good.
And they sure are. But that doesn't mean I won't do what it takes to avoid getting in trouble. It's human nature.
Re:A good tech safety feature, not a privacy probl (Score:2)
Simple. Because now my next hack plans are to see what I can do to either disable that box, or to fix the data going to it. I expect I'm just one in a soon to be large pool of people hacking their cars.
Wouldn't it be neat to go -20 km/h all the time!
The article mentioned that these units are also used to help tell the air bags when to deploy. So if you
Re:A good tech safety feature, not a privacy probl (Score:2)
Erm. Fortunately, you are wrong. From the article: What's captured is the final five seconds leading up to a crash, or to the instant the car's electronic brain determines an air bag should deploy. The black box is not the brain, it's just a recorder. Hack freely...
Re:A good tech safety feature, not a privacy probl (Score:2)
Re:A good tech safety feature, not a privacy probl (Score:2)
I say anything that you can misuse to kill someone should have such data recording abilities.
Re:A good tech safety feature, not a privacy probl (Score:2, Insightful)
Good luck convincing Mother Nature to install "data recording abilities" on rocks, sticks, cliffs, water....
Re:A good tech safety feature, not a privacy probl (Score:3, Funny)
Re:A good tech safety feature, not a privacy probl (Score:2)
The missing word is... YET.
It's in the manual on my car (Score:2)
Crap (Score:5, Insightful)
Wrong point of view... (Score:3, Insightful)
The key issue is that these devices in cars were designed and intended to do other things, NOT provide evidence in court. In most of the cases sited in the article, they run safety equipment such as air bags. It turns out that the equipment can provide other information. Just like yo
think 'insurance company' (Score:2)
my problem is that the insurance company will waste no time pulling this out of a hat to deny a claim or raise your rates, but i doubt that they will tell you about this so that you can use this information to help you win a case against them. so i think everyone should know that they have a recorder. (if they have one)
eric
Re:Crap (Score:3, Insightful)
Skid marks are a science too, even if you have ABS, when you go sideways your speed can be estimated by the skidmarks on the road.
Re:Crap (Score:3, Insightful)
Why? There's no reasonable expectation to privacy with respect to the speed you are driving, or anything else related to how you are driving. Despite the wishes of some, there is no constitutional right to privacy here. Since your legal rights are
Car ECU's... (Score:5, Interesting)
I am certain that on a number of higher priced cars (such as Porsches or BMW's) they record lots of little details.. like the number of standing 'sprint' starts you have made as a pose to just regular pulling away from lights etc.
A friend recently had to visit the dealership to have his ECU reprogrammed on his brand new Peugeot 206 - they were able to determine from that what, amongst other things, his top speed had been since owning it.
I feel its a good idea for car manufacturers to do it though.. it helps them when it comes down to court cases and complaints about the 'quality' of their car, if they can see how their cars are been driven. They can then gauge if the wear on parts relates to the style of driving and can absolve themselves from any responsibility.
Re:Car ECU's... (Score:5, Funny)
Unfortunately we will be able to verify this. All the geek owned flash motors have been repo'ed since the dotcom bust.
Re:Car ECU's... (Score:4, Interesting)
One interesting thing is that my 1990 Eclipse has an ecu that I can use to disable individual fuel injectors, count how many knock sensor signals were detected, etc. My 2001 Jetta 1.8t can't do all these things. The data sample rate on the eclipse ecu is about 70/sec, about 3/sec through the OBD-II port.
The VW ecu tracks highest road speed, highest engine rpm achieved average shift rpm and more. Basically, the newer car computers track more info that will be useful for the manufacturer, and less that is useful for the owner.
Re:Car ECU's... (Score:3, Interesting)
I remember reading some time ago about a guy who tried to keep the milage down on his car by disconnecting the speedometer cable. I think it was a BMW - something expensive, anyway. Only problem with that was when, after some thousands of unclocked miles, he hooked it back up, and then stared in
That's a good little sheep... (Score:5, Insightful)
Save yourselves! Rip these things out right now! Write your senator! E-Mail your representative! Hack the thing so it continueously records you going 25mph with your seatbelt on! Just don't sit there and let anything your car says be used against you in court.
You are the Unabomber, and I claim my five pounds (Score:5, Insightful)
For crying out loud, if someone is speeding and causes an accident, they deserve to get stiffed by the law because they are a dangerous, arrogant, son-of-a-bitch. These people kill. Having a box that records five seconds worth of data is not a problem. You think you should have a right to endanger other people's lives and break the law? If you think the law on speeding is wrong, campaign against the law. If you think the speed limit is too low, campaign to raise the speed limit. But if you think it's right, then why on earth should you have the right to break it and not get caught?
Not all your points are garbage - the police should not be capable of recording onto such devices, and Insurance companies shouldn't have access to the things, but people who drive well already tend to get lower premiums than people who drive badly - don't you have 'no claims bonuses' in your part of the world? Age-related insurance levels?
Black sheep, white sheep (Score:2)
As for speed limits, there are people for whom even the current speed limits are too high. Is the senior citizen who drives 50 kph in 90 zone (slows down to 30 in the 50 zone) and slows down every time the driver in the car just behind decides to get some space between the two cars in case the senior citizen in front should suddenly b
Re:You are the Unabomber, and I claim my five poun (Score:2)
I think that the laws of privacy are wrong and am campaigning against the use of black boxes to intrude upon my privacy. How is this any different? Just because the removal of the black box increases my chances of getting away with a crime does not preclude my
Too easy to say "speeders = baby killers" (Score:3, Insightful)
Because not all laws are just, and not all unjust laws have reasonable ways of changing them. Someone may not have the time and energy to mount a campaign. A campaign that does get started may have no effect, and there is generally no fixed timetable in which to tell when an outcome will emerge. An eventual failure of the campaign to change anything may have not
Re:That's a good little sheep... (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah. I am a healthy young person (compared to most...), I am not unemployed or anything, why the hell do I still have to pay social security? Why do I have to pay for some cancer victim's expensive pills, or some kid's bracers? THEY use the service, let THEM pay, not ME!
(And if you think I really meant what I just said and agree with it, go and shoot
An informed society?? (Score:5, Interesting)
"the data from black boxes, which are on about 40 million cars in the USA"
6 of the 8 posts so far show that they aren't even awware that such a thing exists on cars. Is this an informed society? Or a purposely misinformed, under-informed or engineered society?
Maybe 10 billion of our clothes already contain RFID tags? A few billion of our wrist watches already contain bugs? Seems like paranoia is the only sensible option to remain sane.
Story about my car. Tinfoil Hat Time (c) (Score:5, Interesting)
But now I read this and am wondering... is the standard GM "black box" contained in the RKE module? Does anyone know what exactly goes on in the RKE besides car alarm functions. Seems like a rather big box for just an alarm, even factoring in GM's bloated-lo-tech way of doing things.
Or am I just paranoid?
Re:Story about my car. Tinfoil Hat Time (c) (Score:2, Informative)
He wasn't BS'ing you.
Re:Story about my car. Tinfoil Hat Time (c) (Score:2)
After being involved in an accident... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:After being involved in an accident... (Score:3, Funny)
It's been my experience... (Score:2, Interesting)
I don't know the specifics of your accident, so I won't make a judgement there, but the fact remains that the majority of cyclists (at least in my area) totally ignore the rules, 100%. This means that the very few legitimate cases tend to be downplayed. Sorry if you got the short end of the stick. Perhaps you might consider driving a vehicle that's a little more "respecte
Isn't it generally accepted... (Score:2)
Don't get me wrong... if I'm dead i'd be happy to share my black box information. However...
Until i'm dead, that information is mine to do with as I please, just as any personal data is. At the very least a warrent should be required to gain access to this information. Unless they record audio though, they are not nessicarly protected under wiret
Unbiased? (Score:5, Interesting)
In the airplane industry, the hundreds of little black boxes that belong to a typical jetliner can only be read and interpreted by the specific airplane manufacturer that made them. The resulting simulation may appear to be an unbiased account of what truly happened, but we really don't know that -- the system used to decode them is a closely guarded trade secret.
In the automobile industry, those same black boxes will serve the interest of whoever develops them and puts them in your car. If your car manufacturer puts them in, they will be biased in favor of your car manufacturer. If your rental company puts them in, they will be biased in favor of your rental company. And if your car insurance company makes you put them in, they will biased in favor of your insurance company.
May be I'm just paranoid, but I would really like to see somekind of black box kit we could develop ourselves and install ourselves.
Information wants to be free! (Score:2)
Black box, white box (Score:5, Funny)
PROVE IT to your insurance, employer, and goverment:
bring your car to us and we'll switch your BLACK box
with our WHITE box, always driven under 25 MPH,
always seat-belted, by our team of grandmothers!
Cheers, Joel
So, what are these for exactly? (Score:3, Insightful)
The black box is supposed to help the police and prosecuters figure out the speed before an accident, and car companies fix defects in their design?
That, my friend, is what I call a shovel of bullshit.
Firstly, speed can be gandered by a number of methods, mainly by the length of skidmarks.
Secondly, since when did car companies begin caring about their customers getting killed? As soon as the car is sold, they don't give a ratsass about it unless you stop the payments, inwhich case they reposess it and try to sell it for more than it's actually worth.
Blackboxes are on airline jets becuase, well, there's gotta be an excuse besides "we didn't maintain the plane properly" when one goes down, and it's nice to know what happened. Popular ones are: Sheets of ice were on the plane wings hindering movement, wind broke a wing, or my personal favorite, the piolet was drunk(why would a piolet fly if he was drunk? I'd think if they are smart enough to fly, they are smart enough not to drink and fly). Mostly, it makes a certain amount of sense; if boeing makes a few thousand planes with defencts, the industry is going to find a way to fix them becuase if a large percentage of a fleet of 500 planes goes down, they've got a major financial and PR crisis. How are you going to explain 5 or 6 planes crashing in a 2 month period? Blackboxes help to detect defects. On planes, they are justified to an extend, but on cars...it just doesn't add up.
I should probably be surprised (Score:3, Interesting)
But really, what is the threshold of one of these getting yanked out of your car? That is the matter that needs to be addressed with the courts and the statehouse. Black boxes have been in commercial aircraft for a long time, and yes, they have been used in civil and criminal court cases. But nobody complains (that I've heard anyhow) too much about the privacy of these. Of course, the FAA has seriously strict guidlines regarding the release of voice transcripts and other information.
Perhaps a good compromise (probably defeated by fait accompli) would have been to limit the recorders to commercial vehicles such as trucks and buses, where the implicit right to privacy on behalf of the driver is somewhat more limited to serve the public interest. Dunno.
Could this be used to help consumers as well (Score:3, Interesting)
I did hear rumors about insurance companies wanting to charge drivers by the mile! This really pisses me off since I use to do copier repair. Why should I be charged for driving my own car so I can work? The insurance industry would love to own all cars to satisfy their stockholders like Microsoft loves to own all computers.
Anyway it would be nice if these boxes could stay but under some rules.
1. Search warrant required to review data
2. No GPS or protection from insurance companies watching my driving habits
3. Only be used in court of laws.
Speeding is hard to prove. Especially if you live in California and 90 to 100mhh is typically average on some highways during non rush hour. Where I am in Vegas route 15 to Los Angeles has Californians going 90 on average on the way back to LA. They are nuts. I would hate to be fined while driving at the same speed as everyone else on the road.
Anyway I do not have a problem if this is not abused.
But I do agree consumers have a right to know about black boxes upon purchasing as well as renting cars.
Re:Could this be used to help consumers as well (Score:3, Insightful)
The gall!
If, say, the average person was involved in one accident every, say, 100,000 miles, who is going to be more expensive to insure, the guy that drives 100,000 miles in a year, or the guy that drives 10,000 miles in a year? One will be in an accident once a year while the other will be in an accident once in ten.
Now are you going to suggest that both should have the same insurance premiums?
Catching Drunk Drivers (Score:2, Interesting)
My 7-year-old nephew was killed by a drunk driver on his way to school this year, and if the guy would have had a black box, then believe me -- we would have used it in court.
The problem with technology is that it is dangerous, and once it's out there it will be used and abused. Just like anything else (like alcohol
Such is life...
Somewhat similar being done w/ fliers in SC (Score:3, Interesting)
Apparently our police department, without knowledge to the public, patrols condo and high end apartments placing fliers that say,
"Your car is attracting theft for the following reasons:
Your doors are unsecure, unlocked, convertible top down
You have _________ in plain view
You do not have a security system
Your custom _________ is unsecure
You have items on your porch that may attract theft
A note from the Greenville County Police Department"
At first, you think this sounds great. "I'm glad the police are patrolling and keeping me safe" Well, in this case, the man's insurance company wasn't going to pay because the police department apparently writes down your license information when they place a flier on your car. IF you do call to report a break-in that information is added to the police report that is sent to your insurance company when you go to make a claim.
To bring this back to topic. There are many things that we have to be aware of when we purchase with anonimity or use things that can be traced to us (IE car through license plate) This is one reason I like to try to get records of any traceable thing I have (credit cards, license, email, phone, local police, BBB report, eBay, etc) every 3 years. ( I have a list of 25 sources that collect information about me and a form letter I use to request information)
I was surprised to find out a couple weeks ago that the post office even has a rap sheet on me. (Rude to desk clerks, mailing in improper boxes, mailing improper rate)
Without trying to instill FUD, just be aware of how FREE you are and how FREE you are not in a trackable, traceable with seamless technology society.
Obvious questions... (Score:2)
How do you disable it?
Driving is public behaviour (Score:2)
And, likewise, driving is a PRIVILEGE, that is, something that is not automatically granted but something that can be withdrawn by the authorities (just try running all the red lights you see, and check what happens to your license).
Therefore, if it is necessary for the public good to install mandatory car event-recorders that are downloadabl
Silly prosecutor (Score:4, Insightful)
The shame of this is, the black box data isn't even needed. Surely, simple forensics could differentiate between a collisionat or near the speed limit (with or without braking) and one at 103 MPH. There is little reason to introduce controversy into the case. As for the DUI, the blackbox can't help there, it could only show reckless driving (which simple forensics could also prove, driving about 100MPH in a 30MPH zone is definatly reckless).
And they laughed at me... (Score:2)
Hahahahaha...
Save anonymity for when it counts (Score:2, Flamebait)
If I'm doing something dumb, I usually don't want to broadcast it. And by converse, if I don't want to broadcast something, it's a good indicator that I'm doing something dumb.
We're not talking about freeing our country from the King or a right-wing cabal. We're talking about driving a potentially dangerous weapon down the street.
Trying to remain anonymous about your ability to use common sense when driving a vehicle is a gross misuse of anonymity. Most traffic laws do make
Remember Audi 5000 and "unintended acceleration"? (Score:3, Interesting)
Audi US sales plunged to oblivion. Audi was forced to discontinue the 5000, and it took several years for the public relations nightmare to subside. If the black box were available then, we could easily have determined the true cause of the problem. If it were indeed a legitimate defect in the car, it could have been resolved very quickly, thereby preventing further injuries. If it were driver error, Audi could have been spared the tremendous losses they suffered. Both the manufacturer and the consumer would have benefited from this technology.
Come to think of it, based on the timing, I wonder if this isn't what motivated the development of automobile black boxes in the first place?
Secret NTSB black box data (Score:4, Funny)
you misunderstand... (Score:5, Insightful)
Take the constitutional amendment against self-incrimination. Do you really think that this protection was put into place to prevent evidence from your car being used "against you"? For godsake, this amendment was created to prevent people from being tortured or coerced into false confessions by the government, a basic human right. It's kind of embarassing to have this human right turned into "my car's data recorder cannot be used to incriminate me", don't you think? Since when did your car become an extension of your body, subject to the protections of the constitutional restriction on self-incrimination??
And then, the issue of privacy. People here have come to the belief that "privacy" means that nothing you do should ever be aired for anyone else to see. Again, a perversion of what was fought long and hard for. Privacy is the right of common citizens to be let alone in their daily affairs, to be secure in their peoples and posessions from unwarranted intrusion by others. It is *not* the right to conceal information in a car crash. Sorry.
This is a problem in a prosperous society, where many people have forgotten the reasons why urgent protections were needed from different kinds of intrusions by government or others. Basic rights have been manipulated to become more and more, rights of luxury and desire -- so that we claim violation of basic rights for the most trivial (or undeserving) things. The "right" to smoke in bars? The "right" to have an unobstructed view of the beach? etc etc. We need to get a grip and not squander the real rights that were wisely given to us.
the best quote in the article: (Score:3, Interesting)
Is it REALLY a bad thing? (Score:3, Interesting)
Lurking around a bit, I noted that many people are saying "How come nobody's been told about these things? Is it a CONSPIRACY?" I doubt it.
This so-called "black box" is nothing but the OBDII diagnostics module, which every car built after 1996 has. It keeps track of how just about every subsystem in your car is functioning, as well as realtime statistics such as speed, RPM, temperature, mixture, etc. For a complete list of general error codes, take a look at these pages:
Chassis [scantool.net]
Body [scantool.net]
Powertrain [scantool.net]
Network [scantool.net]
When "Check Engine" comes on, OBDII has detected a failure in one of these subsystems and logged it. Your dealer plugs their computer into the diagnostics port, finds out what the error is, and fixes the problem (usually), and clears the code. The site I referenced for the error codes, Scantool [scantool.net] has circuit specs and software you can use to access this data. The downside is that there are three OBDII protocols, and with this system you need a separate module to read each one. There are other places you can go to get a universal reader, but prices are usually pretty expensive.
The upshot is that's it's relatively cheap, and if you like electronics and want to build it yourself it's even cheaper. Autozone stopped doing the free OBD scans, so I used this little project as an excuse to learn how to print my own PCB and have my own diagnostics card for when I need it. Also a big plus is that the software source code is available.
Allright, now that I'm off my tangent, I'll get back to the original subject. It's pure conjecture to guess why the realtime statistics are put in a rolling log for 5 seconds. Could it be a deal with insurance companies? Maybe the computer averages the saved statistics to determine if there's an event? Maybe the orgininal intent was for safety? Who knows?
But remember the data not only can be used against you (which won't happen, you are all safe drivers, right??), but also to exonerate you if the other driver tries to set you up.
And in the article, I didn't see any uses of the logs I particularly disagreed with. If your drunk ass is doing 120mph and you kill two teenage girls, maybe you need to be put in the cooler for awhile.
Heavy trucks have much more advanced black boxes (Score:4, Interesting)
I have one of these units pointed out my window right now, looking at an intersection. (I'm testing one for a robotics application.) Here's what it reports:
-
[151] # 68: 101.1 ft. -5.3 fps 0.046 radians
(Target #68 is 101.1 feet away, approaching at -5.3fps on a relative bearing of 0.046 radians. Target #70 is 224.6 feet away, etc.) The data is updated every 65 milliseconds.[151] # 70: 224.6 ft. 38.2 fps -0.032 radians
[152] # 68: 100.8 ft. -5.3 fps 0.046 radians
[152] # 70: 226.9 ft. 38.4 fps -0.032 radians
[153] # 68: 100.4 ft. -5.3 fps 0.048 radians
[153] # 70: 229.0 ft. 38.4 fps -0.032 radians
[154] # 68: 100.1 ft. -5.4 fps 0.050 radians
[154] # 70: 232.0 ft. 38.5 fps -0.032 radians
[155] # 68: Dropped.
[155] # 70: 234.5 ft. 38.6 fps -0.032 radians
[156] # 70: Dropped.
This allows detailed accident reconstruction. The data can be viewed graphically, of course, and trajectories and speeds can be plotted right up to the crash. If any vehicle in a collision has this equipment, it's possible to tell what the other vehicles are doing.
There are tens of thousands of big rigs on the road with these units right now. They're starting to appear in RVs. A few more years will see them in cars, as the price comes down.
They do more than log. There are warning alarms. Some versions will slow down the vehicle. These devices are already reducing accident rates for big trucks. Another generation of this technology and radar/computer control will prevent many more collisions.
Dividing the braking task between the driver and the computers is tough. But we already have elaborate ABS systems with computers and gyros, and those are well-accepted. This is the next step. It's reasonably clear that when a collision is inevitable if braking isn't started within a few hundred milliseconds, the anti-collision system should apply the brakes. At that point, it's too late for human intervention. Whether the system should always prevent tailgating is less clear. VORAD units will do that in cruise control mode, but the driver has to turn that on.
Re:And how long? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:privacy (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:privacy (Score:3, Insightful)
i disagree. there things just record stuff like speed and when you hit the breaks. also, they keep on overwritting the old data, until you actually crash.
the way is see it is that these things are just unbiased information, and while they can obviously be bad for you if you actually were speeding and got into an accident, they can also help you out if you got falsly accused"
Ever notice how technology
In response to many questions (Score:5, Informative)
Which cars have it?
How long have cars had it?
Here's a lengthy explanation:
All cars released in the United States are OBDII compatible. This has been a federal mandate since 1998, although some carmakers decided to support OBDII in 1997 and some(including Toyota) had limited compliance in 1996. OBDII is an extension of OBDI, an earlier version of the standard. Carmakers were well aware that this law was coming, many thought ahead.
What is OBDII
It stands for Onboard Diagnostics, version two. It is a requirement for all cars mass produced(exemptions are issued, but it is for specialty manufacturers). It is a standard describing the diagnostics, logging, and interface to the Engine and Powertrain Controller Unit present in all fuel injected cars. Some of the parameters are always monitored, such as vehicle speed, air/fuel ratio, injector pulse lengths, rpm, gear(for automatics mostly), air flow meter/absolute manifold pressure meter, throttle/accelerator pedal position, and measured oxygen sensor output. There were minimums set for what a car had to monitor, but it is an extensible protocol and carmakers were free to extend it as much as they liked. Once the framework was there, extending it to include things like steering wheel position and brake pedal position/brake system pressure were easy. One of the minimums though, was that all cars had to maintain a 30 second rolling-log of all sensors and that as a minimum, the required sensor inputs had to be saved at the moment a sensor fault is detected. Hell, with the price of Flash memory these days, 30 minutes of logging was feasible. Many cars maintain a very detailed log of your driving activity.
So, in response, all new cars sold today have some form of limited logging, and many have very detailed logging. The only differences being what is logged, and for how long.
If you have any questions, just ask. Believe me, I know. It is my job to know.
Re:In response to many questions (Score:2)
Re:In response to many questions (Score:5, Interesting)
[obdii.com] advocacy, informational website
Discusses OBDII, not from a completely unbiased source
information is accurate, some of it is incomplete though
Straight from the horses mouth,
US Environmental Protection Agency [epa.gov]
More information than you care to read, in the search box, enter 'OBDII' without single quotes. This should enlighten you on the original intent of the OBD legislation, as well as the legal basis it stands on(see also, Clean Air Act,1970)
If you care about the future, this one is more serious than most as far as privacy goes. Please, please, if you don't ever write your representative again, write about this.
Here's a breakdown of OBDIII, what it means for your car, and what it means for your privacy
OBDIII summarized at University of Minnesota, Mechanical Engineering dept. [umn.edu]
This talks about the current status of diagnostics, legislation, and what's coming on the horizon like locus in egypt.
ODBIII - Severe Privacy Concern (Score:3, Informative)
"The system is reportedly capable of retrieving information from 8 lanes of bumper-to-bumper traffic whizzing by at speeds up to 100 mph!"
"...a stationary or portable roadside transmitter, it transmits back an answer in the form of the vehicle's 17-digit VIN number"
In other words they know exactly where you are, what's preventing someone from building a transponder on 915Mhz and tracking cars as they go by?
Re:In response to many questions (Score:5, Informative)
www.OBD-2.com [obd-2.com]
.
Question in response to offer... (Score:2)
Re:Question in response to offer... (Score:2)
Re:Question in response to offer... (Score:3, Interesting)
Didn't expect a physical reset...just curious if there is a direct 'accident data' purge, or if that data is co-mingled with routine, gathered driving parameters, etc.
If accident data is distinct, I'd be curious if it is protected from being purged.
Re:Question in response to offer... (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, there is a datalog purge function, but you have to have the manufacturers ID key for your car. It is for authentication and is proprietary. With this ID key, they are able to reprogram ECU's, find problems that aren't available to independant repair shops, as well as purge usage/accident data.
Re:Question in response to offer... (Score:2)
Used to be you could jumper at the tap, and clear any stored profiles, forcing the cpu to go back into factory default and learn mode.
LOL! Please mod up funny! (Score:2)
Re:Car's `Black Box' to Be Used in Trial (Score:2)
Black box car v. non-black box car (Score:5, Interesting)
Would the other driver be able to introduce your black box into evidence even though he had no such box? So he could say "I swear that I was driving within the speed limits, the black box shows that the other guy was going 5 MPH over the limit, therefore the accident was clearly his fault." You could only prove the speed of the car with the black box, not the other car.
That frightens me because it would only give a biased view of the accident. Maybe I sped up to avoid his speeding car. Maybe I was blindsided so I didn't hit the breaks. But only my black box would be revealed, so I'd be the only one with direct proof against him.
The article posted shows a very clear-cut example of how this technology could be good, and does not give any example of how it could be misused. Heck, by reading the article, you'd agree that a non-consenting blood alcohol test would be a good idea, but that clearly was not permissible in this case. Why would a non-consenting black-box reading be permissible? Why are the two things different?