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Gates on Digital Restrictions Technologies 465

doormat writes "According to this article, Gates says you can choose not to use the new secure PC technology that they're developing. Is that going to be a choice like being a vegetarian, or like choosing not to eat at all?" There's also a short piece about DRM and Linux, which is a follow-up to Linus on DRM.
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Gates on Digital Restrictions Technologies

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  • If you opt out (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Jimhotep ( 29230 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:47AM (#5900979)
    If I opt out what will stop working?

    How will I know for sure I am out?
    • by amembrane ( 571154 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:49AM (#5901005)
      You'll know you've opted out when your start button is greyed out, and the mouseover text reads "You have chosen not to use certain features that will greatly enhance your computing experience. This function will be unavailable until you opt to use our 'My File Tracking' feature."
    • Re:If you opt out (Score:5, Insightful)

      by crazyphilman ( 609923 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:06AM (#5901136) Journal
      You'll NEVER know. Actually, since they're planning on implementing a software kernel (like a mini-OS) in a BIOS chip, you won't know what it's doing at all. That secure channel between the motherboard, the video, and the peripherals? It's still there even if you "turn off" DRM. So, how do you know it isn't snooping on you? Or deliberately slowing down your non-DRM processing? Or, even non-deliberately slowing it down -- do you think they're going to waste QA time on those of us who reject their pet project? It's just a big mess.

      I'll tell you this much: I don't trust Microsoft and Intel not to completely screw up the system in one way or another. They've both turned out some seriously buggy stuff over the years. Remember the floating point bug? Remember the latest Microsoft vulnerability? Remember the Intel chip-ID brouhaha? I don't trust either company. And, AMD is playing along too, so where are we going to turn?

      I'm telling you guys -- stock up on fast systems now, while you can. Get all your computer purchasing out of the way this year, and skip the whole DRM thing entirely. If you're *really* forced to, you can always buy a cheapo, 500.00 box/appliance down the road (just for DRM purposes) and code on your *good* pre-Palladium machines.

      • You'll NEVER know. Actually, since they're planning on implementing a software kernel (like a mini-OS) in a BIOS chip, you won't know what it's doing at all. That secure channel between the motherboard, the video, and the peripherals? It's still there even if you "turn off" DRM. So, how do you know it isn't snooping on you?
        one word: wiresnips. :)

      • where are we going to turn?
        i don't know about the rest of you guys, but i never trusted any cpu that i didn't design myself using nothing but NAND-gates.
      • by Rinikusu ( 28164 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @11:49AM (#5902130)
        /* I'm telling you guys -- stock up on fast systems now, while you can. Get all your computer purchasing out of the way this year, and skip the whole DRM thing entirely. If you're *really* forced to, you can always buy a cheapo, 500.00 box/appliance down the road (just for DRM purposes) and code on your *good* pre-Palladium machines. */

        And thank you, Mr. Grove. Trying to get your volumes up this quarter? ;)

      • Re:If you opt out (Score:4, Interesting)

        by senahj ( 461846 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @11:50AM (#5902159)
        Crazy phil man saith :
        > stock up on fast systems now, while you can.
        > Get all your computer purchasing out of the way this year,
        > and skip the whole DRM thing entirely.

        Here's where I think the dividing line is on Wintel.
        I'd be grateful for corrections.

        Disk drives - CPRM :
        - No CPRM-mandatory products in wide distribution.

        BIOS - TCPA :
        - no data. Anyone know which ones have TCPA support
        already built in?

        Processor - La Grande :
        - current P4 dice don't have La Grande, CPU IDs can be disabled.
        - Prescott-design processors due "in the third quarter
        of 2003" will have La Grande

        Chipset -
        The hot intel "Canterwood" chipset seems to work well
        with non-La Grande processors. Will its successor?

        OS - Palladium, EULAs, etc. :
        - Windows 9x is not an operating system.
        No actual security of any kind is really possible.
        - Windows 2000 is a real OS, albeit kinda klunky.
        but it doesn't have the hooks to make DRM mandatory.
        Up to SP2 the EULAs were acceptable - then the EULA for SP3
        had that scary clause about agreeing that MS could download and
        install updates without your knowledge or further consent,
        (now it looks like that was just CYA for the "auto update"
        feature, which can be turned off). But I think that you can
        run Windows 2000 at SP 2 or 3 and be in the clear, especially
        if you don't rush into any further service packs or updates
        without careful scrutiny. Withdrawn from market, but still
        available e.g. on ebay.
        - Windows XP is the same OS as Windows 2000, with a whole
        lot of minor annoyances fixed. Big improvement in backward
        compatibility with Windows 9x: it's a far better gaming platform.
        But it was designed to be the carrot that lured people onto
        Passport and MyWallet, and to support Windows Media DRM.
        May already be some Palladium or precursor under the hood.
        Currently being shipped on all new OEM boxen.
        - Longhorn, or whatever the next generation is codenamed:
        it will be possible for someone to configure it to make Palladium
        mandatory. Will the owner of the HW be allowed to configure it?
        - You don't own any data; you pay
        a monthly fee for access to certain data, some of which you
        may have created. If you quit paying, you lose acceess, and
        the data might go away.

        Windows Media Player
        Trojan Horse. Introduces DRM, and each update locks it down tighter,
        gives the user less control. EULAs and built-in DRM already
        onerous and unacceptable in 7.1. People who download and install
        the current WMP 9 are drinking the kool-aid.

        Real Player, Quicktime, etc.
        I have no knowledge. Anyone?

        So, I conclude that if I wish to continue with Wintel
        and still have control of my data, I *must* buy a new box
        with a fast P4 on a Canterwood chipset, and I must do
        it this summer while I still can.

      • "Actually, since they're planning on implementing a software kernel (like a mini-OS) in a BIOS chip, you won't know what it's doing at all."

        Well, since 99% of Windows systems get fitted with a r00t kit at the first possible oportunity, Microsoft have decided to fit their own by default for your convenience :o)

        I'm betting on the fact that Sun, IBM or _someone_ (maybe the Chineese) will carry on making TCPA-free hardware for a while at least, which should give OSS types somewhere to go when all the rest hav
    • Re:If you opt out (Score:5, Interesting)

      by flogger ( 524072 ) <non@nonegiven> on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:23AM (#5901272) Journal
      Opting out? How can I opt out? Will there be a big warnng box upon install that says, "Check this box if you wish to opt out of using secutiry features." Or will it be turned on by default and installed already when Joe User buys a new PC? Will it be easy to turn off?
      Heck. How many Joe Users know right now if their Unique Chip Identifier is turned on in bios? (ala Pentium III UID technology).
      I tend to not like this optional feature. It will take one hour for someone to release a worm that turns it on without knowledge, turns it off without knowledge, or reports all sort of fun info without Joe User's knowledge.
    • Re:If you opt out (Score:3, Insightful)

      by jo_ham ( 604554 )
      The best way to opt out is to go here [apple.com] to buy all your future hardware.

      No OS related restrictions, no serial numbers, no phoning up for activation, no being treated like a criminal.

      Ok, so you can run windows on it unless you install an emulator, but i think that's something of an advantage.
  • Rephrased (Score:4, Insightful)

    by swordboy ( 472941 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:48AM (#5900987) Journal
    Is that going to be a choice like being a vegetarian, or like choosing not to eat at all?

    It is going to be a choice like eating cheese at midnight on Tuesday.
  • The technology (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Bendebecker ( 633126 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:48AM (#5900988) Journal
    The technology is going to be like cars. You don't need one but not having one is a restriction in itself.
    • Re:The technology (Score:4, Insightful)

      by dAzED1 ( 33635 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:05AM (#5901125) Journal
      My god, listen to you people...

      The technology is going to be like cars. You don't need one but not having one is a restriction in itself.

      Really? I mean, I personally think of automobiles as a huge technological breakthrough, the culmination of a lot of extremely signigicant technologies. It is one of the things that most impacted the 20th century. Do you REALLY think DRM is like that???

      Get a grip, people. If you wanna use windows, keep using windows2000 or xp, then you'll be safe in your drm-free world. And then when this MS bumble fails like so many other MS things have, everyone will see it for what it is. Is passport used the way MS said it would be? No. I could go on, but you're all too busy running for fear that the sky is falling.

      TIP: The world is revolving around the US less and less every day. There will be more than plenty of places you can get things from that do what you want to do, even if all of windows gets drm-locked-down. They're a whole world out there - check it out.

      • Re:The technology (Score:2, Informative)

        by PhilHibbs ( 4537 )

        If you wanna use windows, keep using windows2000 or xp, then you'll be safe in your drm-free world.

        I want to buy a new laptop and put Windows on it. I currently have a laptop, and that came with Windows 98, but it's impossible to find a laptop that I can install that on, because it came as an image restoration CD. I have an original Windows 95 CD, but then I couldn't use the USB ports. So, my only option is to get a Windows XP laptop. In 5 years time, the story will be the same, but with different version

        • Alternatives (Score:3, Interesting)

          by matty ( 3385 )
          Well, if Microsoft isn't serving your needs, perhaps you should look into one of the excellent alternatives out there? A Powerbook or Linux perhaps? Sure you don't want to pay for Windows pre-installed, then wipe it and pay for SuSE or whatever, but if that extra ~$70 actually gets you a computer YOU have control over instead of MS, maybe it's worth it?
      • Re:The technology (Score:5, Insightful)

        by JimDabell ( 42870 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:25AM (#5901285) Homepage

        Really? I mean, I personally think of automobiles as a huge technological breakthrough, the culmination of a lot of extremely signigicant technologies. It is one of the things that most impacted the 20th century. Do you REALLY think DRM is like that???

        Way to miss the point. He didn't say he thought that any more than he said he thought that DRM had wheels on the bottom.

        Get a grip, people. If you wanna use windows, keep using windows2000 or xp, then you'll be safe in your drm-free world.

        You are also free to carry on using Windows 95 today... oh, but it's been EOLed, so no more security patches - hope you don't need to access an untrusted network, like, say, the Internet.

        TIP: The world is revolving around the US less and less every day. There will be more than plenty of places you can get things from that do what you want to do, even if all of windows gets drm-locked-down. They're a whole world out there - check it out.

        TIP: It's not just in the USA that Microsoft has a monopoly in computers.

      • Re:The technology (Score:4, Interesting)

        by tambo ( 310170 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:30AM (#5901332)
        >And then when this MS bumble fails like so many
        >other MS things have, everyone will see it for
        >what it is. Is passport used the way MS said it
        >would be? No.

        That doesn't always happen. Microsoft is inserting more and more "creeping featuritis" into Windows. Do you really want to trust MS's assertions that they won't use it? Remember Amazon's privacy policy changes? (Today: Give us your personal information; we PROMISE not to sell it to spammers. Tomorrow: We changed our minds, and we're sure you'll love these eight trillion emails from bukkake.com.)

        Let's say we all roll over and accept DRM as a harmless, unusued feature. Who's to say that buried in some EULA for Windows 2006 XP won't be a clause that using Windows Update authorizes MS to turn on DRM? With the flip of a switch (well, the toggle of a BOOL), MS becomes Hollywood's bestest pal.

        I don't want to let MS embed a bomb in my system. Thanks, no.

        >TIP: The world is revolving around the US less
        >and less every day.

        TIP: Network effects are powerful forces. Sure, we can switch, if we don't ever want to access our old Word documents or run 90% of the software that's commercially available.

        David Stein, Esq.
      • Get a grip, people. If you wanna use windows, keep using windows2000 or xp, then you'll be safe in your drm-free world. And then when this MS bumble fails like so many other MS things have, everyone will see it for what it is. Is passport used the way MS said it would be? No. I could go on, but you're all too busy running for fear that the sky is falling.

        No, Passport hasn't caught on the way Microsoft (which should now be called Macrosoft) wanted it to. So now it's building a hardware dongle to enforce Pa

      • When you get to second grade maybe your teacher will let you look at the dictionary and you'll learn that an analogy is a comparison based upon similarity in some areas between things which are not similar overall.

        Yes automobiles are dissimilar to DRM. That's why an analogy can be made between the parts that are in fact similar.
      • Re:The technology (Score:3, Insightful)

        by slaker ( 53818 )
        XP DOES have some DRM features, built in to Media Player (e.g. you can rip a file from a CD, but only in dumbass WMA format, and only at a low bit-rate).

        2003 Server includes DirectX 6 but WMP9, BTW. This is hilarious, since sound and graphics acceleration are off by default, and if you *DO* play a media file or a CD with media player, all the visualizations are on and completely handled by your CPU.

        Anyway, through the linkages that have a tendency to happen with Microsoft programs, probably 20 minutes aft
      • by SailorBob ( 146385 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @11:08AM (#5901716) Homepage Journal
        Get a grip, people. If you wanna use windows, keep using windows2000 or xp

        I would love to sell computers with 2000 on them and not XP or whatever the next boatware is gonig to be - but I can't since M$ no longer sells licenses to old OS's. Sure, individuals can buy old licenses 2nd hand and install themselves, but that's an extremely small percentage of people. 95% of people buy their machine with a pre-installed OS, and that is going to be the latest M$ bloatware because you can't run a PC business scavanging old licenses here and there. You have to have a reliable supply of licenses.

        As a seller I'm forced to put whatever the latest Winbloze is on the machines I sell. Actually, forcing people to buy something they don't want or need is illegal. It's called racketeering and it's what the auto companies got smacked down on for in the 60's/70's. They were required to publish the specs for any car they no longer sell/service. M$ should be forced to publish the source for old OS's it no longer supports. M$ also shouldn't be allowed to prevent the use of such old OS's. To do so and force people to buy a newer version is racketeering.

      • Re:The technology (Score:3, Insightful)

        by scot4875 ( 542869 )
        And then when this MS bumble fails like so many other MS things have, everyone will see it for what it is.

        I'd say the same thing, but for the adoption rate of the XBox. Microsoft is already a household consumer electronics name, and people trust names that they know. It may not reach 80-90% market penetration right out of the gate, but give it 5 years and a few billion in advertising and it might just get there.

        --Jeremy
    • Re:The technology (Score:2, Insightful)

      by syzygy_001 ( 671384 )
      > The technology is going to be like cars. You
      > don't need one but not having one is a
      > restriction in itself.
      >

      Saying that is like saying your choice is to use a computer or not to use a computer. I think it would closer to say that it would be more like Gas to a car then having a car or not having a car.

      Keeping on the Car angle, You can own a car, you can tweek it out all nice and good, put on a "new this" and a "high performance that" but without the Gas your car isn't going to do that much
  • by numbski ( 515011 ) * <numbskiNO@SPAMhksilver.net> on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:49AM (#5900994) Homepage Journal
    However I can't help but start reading DRM differently.

    Digital Rights Management
    Digital Restrictions Masochism

    Same diff really.

    Oh, and as an opinion, he expects us not to eat. ;)
    • Another (Score:3, Funny)

      by truthsearch ( 249536 )
      Digitally Restrictive Monopoly

      He wants us to pick between Krusty's deadly Rib-wich made of animal-like products and starvation.
  • by Sabalon ( 1684 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:49AM (#5900996)
    How long before MS decides that they will only provide windows for this thing and anything else doesn't offer the needed security? So, you can either use these or you can use something that doesn't run Windows.

    Fine for a lot of people here, but what will happen is businesses will still want windows and office, so they'll buy into this, and hardware makers will look at the other stuff as a non-profitable niche market.
    • by blahlemon ( 638963 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:08AM (#5901157)
      You've got it exactly, Windows right now and probably the first couple of releases will run just fine on normal hardware but how long will it be before the hardware manufactures stop running two product lines, one secure and one open? And once that happens why would Microsoft continue to provide a version that runs on unsecure hardware?

      I think a big problem with this is the companies are trying to use hardware restrictions on a primarily social problem. It's not the big companies that are providing their movies and music on a digital format that is being distributed. It's regular people who are taking camcorders into theatres and recording the movie, then downloading it onto their computer and sharing it. How can a hardware restriction effect a user created file if the user doesn't apply rights to it? You would have to disable all file mobility.

      Trying to lock down the movie and sound formats won't work either because people will either (a) use older formats or (b) create their own players to be shared with the movies and music.

      • by tuffy ( 10202 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:20AM (#5901252) Homepage Journal
        You've got it exactly, Windows right now and probably the first couple of releases will run just fine on normal hardware but how long will it be before the hardware manufactures stop running two product lines, one secure and one open? And once that happens why would Microsoft continue to provide a version that runs on unsecure hardware?

        I think the big question is why would consumers choose to buy DRM-crippled Windows versus non DRM-crippled Windows? Who, exactly, would want to buy hardware or an OS that gives them less control over their machine than they have now? And if people don't buy into Microsoft's scheme in sufficient numbers, the non-crippled version of Windows and hardware will quickly fade away - unless Microsoft wants to cut their own throats, which seems unlikely.

      • But the common theory is that if people could get these things online at a reasonable price, then they would buy them, and the only reason people are stealing them is that they are not available from the content owners(not that I buy into that, but that is the argument). Without DRM, people will just take the music/movie/whatever that one person buys, throw it on Kazaa (or whatever the next big P2P program is) and then people still won't buy it. So if you believe the rhetoric from the P2P defenders, once
    • Fine for a lot of people here, but what will happen is businesses will still want windows and office, so they'll buy into this

      Surely even the most PH of PHBs have realised by now that this isn't always (and hardly ever these days it seems) the best business solution?

      And from the article:

      Secure documents created in Microsoft Office, for instance, could be unusable on other operating systems or with other office productivity suites.

      How convenient. But yet, at the same time, how is this, say, any mo
    • If I started a business today, I would use only Linux for the office. It is much more economical and if you ever decide you need to customize software to your business model, your best bet is with Linux. Unless you don't mind shelling out tens of thousands of dollars in licensing fees above the additional development costs.

      Technology is a tool which should serve those that buy it not those that have sold it. If I buy a hammer I want to use it any damn way I please, it should be no different with a frigg
    • Oh, come on! (Score:3, Interesting)

      by 2nd Post! ( 213333 )
      That's what competition is for! That's why there are alternatives!

      Like... Mac OS X
      Like... Linux

      Yes, it sucks if the majority platform becomes stupid, but there are still workable alternatives.

      Of course, if Microsoft decides to drop Office support for Mac, then we've got another problem :)

      Or maybe Apple will see this as the opportunity to finally release OS X86... I'm joking!
      • Re:Oh, come on! (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Sabalon ( 1684 )
        Linux is an alternative to Windows - both running on x86. If x86 disappears and the replacement hardware can't run Linux (while technically possible, DMCA may prevent this from legally working), then you are left with MS and Apple.

        Perhaps this would cause the apple stuff to be less pricey for us people moving in droves to PPC Linux.

        Perhaps Apple would talk with Intel or AMD, who I'm guessing are not in MS's world domination plans, and like you said, migrate to X86, which would probably help keep the plat
  • by wfberg ( 24378 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:52AM (#5901023)
    ..as consumer can *choose* whether to use Microsoft Windows XP "secure" product activation or not..

    What's with all the hardware anyway? Can't Gates begin with introducing mandatory access controls, for instance? Or is Microsoft software inherently flawed, unlike various Security Enhanced/Trusted Operating Systems on offer from competitors?
  • by TopShelf ( 92521 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:52AM (#5901024) Homepage Journal
    Software vendors have pulled the "hey, it wasn't me," line since time immemorial. This does represent a mechanism by which content providers will simply only release new material that require DRT to access. I remember a similar incidence when a new version of Pocket PC came out with DRM that basically rendered my Jornada blind to the world of eBooks.

    Normally I'm not as hard on MS as most of the /. crowd, but gotta give a "boo... hiss..." on this one.

    • by Reziac ( 43301 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:33AM (#5901358) Homepage Journal
      The really scary thing is, I think Gates honestly believes he's creating more "choice" instead of more potential for restrictions. Only problem is, it's going to come down to "you can either choose to be secure (and perforce go with an all-M$, completely DRM'd solution), or you can be out in the cold with only marginal, half-baked choices."

      Look at Windows in today's market. You can either use Windows and WinApps, or be a marginalized user, even in those areas where lockout isn't intentional. It just happens, due to market forces being prone to go with the mainstream because that's where the money is.

      And what happens when ISPs start requiring that you use a "secure" OS to access their servers??

      I generally prefer Windows as my OS, but all too often I'd like to drown M$ in some of their own ideas -- and this is one of 'em. Bah, humbug.

  • by sssmashy ( 612587 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:52AM (#5901030)

    The technology has raised eyebrows not only for the absolute control it would grant such creators of digital content as music and movie companies but also because it is being driven by Microsoft, which has a reputation for strong-arming the computer industry.

    And the next nominee for "Understatement of the Year" is... Matthew Fordahl, of the Associated Press!

  • by Bendy Chief ( 633679 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:53AM (#5901033) Homepage Journal
    Verbatim from the article:

    "They just don't understand," Gates said. "That's like saying because we make a word processor, that reporters write what we want them to write or something. I can give you examples to prove that's not the case." (About antitrust fears with DRM)

    Wow. He sure allayed my fears. What he meant to say is, no, they don't have to write what he wants, but they do have to write in the FORMAT he wants, or get left behind. This whole DRM off-switch issue is the same quandary. Turn DRM off and watch your access to many online resources, that are becoming more and more integrated with daily life, vanish. Not to mention the suspicion that very well may come with shunning DRM. "What do you have to hide?", say Mr. Poindexter and Mr. Ashcroft.
    • by will_die ( 586523 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:00AM (#5901087) Homepage
      You mean like the EULA from some microsoft products that read

      "You may not use the software in connection with any site that disparages Microsoft, MSN, MSNBC, Expedia, or their products or services, infringe any intellectual property or other rights of these parties, violate any state federal or international law, or promote racism, hatred, or pornography."
      ?
      For more info try this article [infoworld.com]
    • Not a single online resource that I use is tied into Microsoft resources that use Windows technologies.

      Passport? Never signed up, almost every site that uses Passport also has another login method except Starbucks....so I'll buy from Peet's :)

      Windows Media? Realplayer, MPEG, Quicktime are some other options you may recall...

      On my Mac, with Safari I have no problem using the Internet or other "Web Features" like XML, RSS, or other technologies. On my WinXP PC I use Firebird and have zero problems as well.
      • You are right, but think of how quick media companies will jump on the DRM bandwagon once they realize what a boon it will be. Say bye-bye to Netflix and music stores. Perhaps if you have music from some distributor, and you later decide to flick off DRM, the files will delete themselves?

        Sounds probable to me. Look at the Apple Music store. It has limited DRM by today's standards, but you still stand to lose all your music if you really f*ck up.

        This DRM debate, by and large, isn't about the present stat

  • Terrorist tool? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gillbates ( 106458 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:54AM (#5901048) Homepage Journal
    Creators of top-secret government documents, financial records or other sensitive material could assign rights to sensitive files, allowing them to be viewed only on trusted computers running the system. Anyone else -- hackers and malicious programs included -- would be locked out.

    Maybe it's just me, but I would think that such a system would also enable terrorists to send "sensitive files" to each other, with the full confidence that law enforcement could not read them.

    Consider the above statement reworded a little:

    Creators of top-secret documents, terrorist plans or other sensitive material could assign rights to sensitive files, allowing them to be viewed only on trusted computers running the system. Anyone else -- FBI hackers, law enforcement and malicious programs included -- would be locked out.
    • Anyone else -- FBI hackers, law enforcement and malicious programs included -- would be locked out.

      Where do I sign up? I'm no terrorist, but daaayyymmmn! With the way laws are changing, I'd love to be able to lock them out of my computer with the full confidence of the law. Without moving offshore of course. ;)
    • The secret Microsoft content monitors, along with checking all files created to ensure that they do not violate copyrights, infringe Microsoft Intellectual Property or plot activities contrary to Microsoft's continuing domination of the market, will also be make sure to "accidentally" leak any terrorist documents to government agencies through their "hacker operatives".

      Oh, wait, you didn't read any of this. It never happened. Go back to sleep.

    • Re:Terrorist tool? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by spacefight ( 577141 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:20AM (#5901247)
      Creators of top-secret documents, terrorist plans or other sensitive material could assign rights to sensitive files, allowing them to be viewed only on trusted computers running the system. Anyone else -- FBI hackers, law enforcement and malicious programs included -- would be locked out.

      FBI perhaps but Microsoft or the NSA is still locked in. I highly doubt that MS can design such a secure system without beeing forced to provide the master keys (eg like Crypto AG did years ago) to some evil agencies. Either they give or the drown. Same with XBox-Live where IMHO MS had to unscramble the VoIP stream (game data stream is still encrypted).
  • You know... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dethl ( 626353 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:55AM (#5901050)
    Consumers shouldn't be worried that Microsoft Corp.'s new security technology will wrest control of their PCs and give it to media companies, Bill Gates said Tuesday.

    And we're supposed to believe someone who has a pretty good grip on the OS situation, and would do anything to keep that grip? Personally, I would rather have the chance of being hacked but also have the ability to do anything I want on my computer. I don't want a company telling me what I can and cannot do with my own computer. If we allow them to do this, who knows how much farther these guys will go?
  • is it just me ? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ramzak2k ( 596734 ) * on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:55AM (#5901052)
    why has security been linked so much DRM these days ? Whenever i read an article on some kind of rights management initiative - there is almost talk about securing the PC. Security & DRM are two different things ! wih gates works on them individually.

    Its amazing how the quote from Benjamin dude works so well here.
    Those who are willing to trade freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security

    Seems like there always was , will be people trying to take away freedom under the pretext of security - even in computing !
    • Its amazing how the quote from Benjamin dude works so well here. Those who are willing to trade freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security

      This quote works amazingly here. Your average-joe computer user has no idea what DRM can and could do. Bill Gates' flaunting of it as a means of security can be used as a veil to eventually control the entire computer, and market.
  • Yeah yeah... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by spacefight ( 577141 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:56AM (#5901056)
    In the interview, Gates said it's up to other companies to ensure interoperability.

    Thank you Microsoft. No need for comments here.
  • by kahei ( 466208 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:56AM (#5901059) Homepage
    The actual technology is more of a framework for building possible restrictions on than a set of restrictions in itself.

    What matters is whether it is used A) to protect specific things whose owners feel they need protecting or B) to just generally exclude software and data transfer that doesn't have corporate approval.

    I must say, it looks to me as if the influence of Microsoft may well be somewhat lower by the time this technology (or similar) is released than it is now. So it'll be no so much 'Microsoft technology' as 'global corporate culture' that determines the level of restriction we eventually experience.

  • by burgburgburg ( 574866 ) <splisken06@nospAm.email.com> on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:57AM (#5901068)
    You'll be limited to Freecell and Minesweeper, but that's your choice.

    Then you've got a really big ugly paperweight, but again, this is your choice.

    Choice is a good thing.

  • by smd4985 ( 203677 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @09:57AM (#5901069) Homepage
    the internet was built on the 'end-to-end' principle - let the applications dictate the ultimate use of the network. the same principle has allowed software to be highly innovative. while the current model can lead to insecurities, it also allows for innovation. for example, suppose i'm building software for a PDA - is it wrong to import address/contact info from outlook express? with palladium, i'm sure only 'trusted' applications will be allowed to do that (i.e. the company that paid MS for access). no doubt this will allow MS to control the pace of innovation and guide its development....
    • Come again?

      The internet was built from whole cloth to allow communication. Applications were built for the 'net, not the other way around.

      . for example, suppose i'm building software for a PDA - is it wrong to import address/contact info from outlook express? with palladium, i'm sure only 'trusted' applications will be allowed to do that (i.e. the company that paid MS for access). no doubt this will allow MS to control the pace of innovation and guide its development....

      You're right, it would. And do
  • The Arrogance (Score:2, Interesting)

    by SRCR ( 671581 )
    If I understand everything correctly I'm no longer going to be the owner of my content but have to ask my Computer very nicly if i can have a look at it.. hmm.. And furthermore if i want to use an other program then the microsoft suite. I have to use a program that changes it's code to the specs of microsoft. In other words the tools I can use other the microsoft have to walk the microsoft walk.. I'm not pleases with this 'security' force upon me..
  • Thank you! (Score:5, Funny)

    by borgdows ( 599861 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:00AM (#5901086)
    >Gates says you can choose not to use the new secure PC technology

    Thank you Bill Gates my master borg!
    Can I choose not to use Windows(tm) too ?

  • by Mr Smidge ( 668120 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:01AM (#5901096) Homepage
    As the well-informed geeks that we are, we are quite aware of the fact that it's perfectly possible to run a secure operating system and maintain it in a good way without DRM in the manner advertised.

    However, I can predict that M$ will make a valiant effort to try to persuade the public into thinking that not being part of their Next Generation Secure Computing Base will put them at some kind of immediate risk. The only real risk I can think of here will be the credit given to you if you choose not to run a trusted operating system.

    "Hello, I'd like support for M$ Cock-In-Yo-Ass V6 please"
    "Are you using NGSCB?"
    "No"
    "We need you to be running a trusted operating system so that we can remotely assist you, sir."
    *Dial tone*

    This movement won't be a good thing.
  • Opting out. (Score:3, Funny)

    by grub ( 11606 ) <slashdot@grub.net> on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:02AM (#5901101) Homepage Journal

    With MS' monopoly on the world, opting out might very well turn one into a modern day TechnoAmish(tm).
  • by mrpuffypants ( 444598 ) <mrpuffypants@@@gmail...com> on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:04AM (#5901113)
    The people that microsoft constantly tout that the DRM features are designed to integrate security with the hardware and the software. How the hell can I trust a company that consistently falls down on security with their software products to "protect" my hardware?

    I don't have a big problem with Windows being insecure, because data can be backed up and restored painlessly, but if their brand of "security" extends to my hardware then I may have to be forced to constantly replace hard drives that spin at 40,000 RPM because of "security" flaws befor a patch can be released.

    The whole Palladium/DRM issue is about trust. They don't have it for me and I don't have it for them.
    • The whole Palladium/DRM issue is about trust.

      If that were only true. It's not about trust. It's about control. It's about Bill thinking he has the right to tell what you can and can not do with your computer.

      The important thing to remember about Bill Gates is that he is a comlete control freak. He feels compelled to control everything he can. He is acting out the nerd's revenge against the world that shunned him as a teen.

  • vegitarian? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by x1l ( 258922 )
    What if I am vegan? I never get any choices.

    Shouldn't it say, be a meat eater, or choose not to eat? I mean, a meat eater can eat everything a vegitarian can eat, but a vegitarian cannot eat everything a meat eater can eat.
    • A vegitarian can eat everything a meat eater can eat, they just choose not to.
    • Re:vegitarian? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by FroMan ( 111520 )
      [offtopic]
      You get the choice to eat only non animal products. Quit bitching you don't have choices.

      I choose to live as a Christian. I don't whine when I tithe. I don't whine when I choose not to do something morally wrong. I don't whine when I go to church on Sunday.

      You see, I made a choice (theological arguements aside) to be a Christian, I accept the consequences and do not tell the world to change for me or give me more choices.
      [/offtopic]

      [ontopic]
      Now to return to on topic. I choose to only use w
  • by molarmass192 ( 608071 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:05AM (#5901126) Homepage Journal
    So long as software is read and interpreted by some piece of hardware, there will ALWAYS exist the possibility of hacking that software. Yeah you can create monster keys from hell and lock them down in hardware but, as the XBox project has shown, all it takes is a bug in a signed piece of software and you can kiss your secured system bye bye. Also, there may be exploits available in the firmware itself and there's the popular brute force attack too. If you connect a box (Microsoft, Linux, Mac, etc) to any network, you implicitly accept a certain level of risk of being compromised. This effort will just lead to more complacency. The only truly 100% secured system system is one that's powered off.
  • Is DRM security? (Score:2, Interesting)

    The more I hear about DRM, the more I realize that all we need is better security in coding and practice, not restrictive computing.

    It's funny how Microsoft is quick to claim that the ultimate burden of security does not lie with them, and accepts no responsibility for the flaws in their code. They then turn around and push DRM like there is no tommorow. It's obvious that this is a power grab.

  • Pre-ban Computers (Score:3, Interesting)

    by wren337 ( 182018 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:07AM (#5901145) Homepage
    There will come a day when you'll be doing all your hacking on a ten-year-old, "pre-ban" PC without DRM. Old hardware is going to be a valuable asset.

  • Microsoft should learn to produce secure products with its existing technology, before they assume the mantel of taking care of security for an entire consumer demographic.

    Haven't they learned that one size doesn't fit all, yet?
  • Many of the functions that will be built into hardware were emulated by software because the chips are not yet built.

    So in order to use this people will need to buy new computers, applications, and possibly new displays.

    Wintel branded, of course.

  • by Timesprout ( 579035 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:12AM (#5901182)
    While I dont agree with the levels of restrictions being imposed I think many people have reached the point where they will view computing with mistrust until security can pretty much be guaranteed and this has been a stumbing block for the industry.

    I think this mistrust has provided the platform for Micrsoft(et al) and Digital media producers to leap on common fears and drive for acceptance of this new and excessive paradigm. So instead of being able to use our computers in a secure environment the security environment will tell us what we can do with our computers.
  • The end game... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by SpaceTaxi ( 170395 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:14AM (#5901203) Homepage
    In essence, what we have here is a admission that we've reached the end of the line in closed source computer/software innovation (perhaps with the exception of Apple). The only way for MS and their cronies to hold on to the desktop computer market now is with a lock and key.
  • by Assmasher ( 456699 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:15AM (#5901207) Journal
    He's just telling you that the people who own/create the media have the choice to protect it or not.
  • Say you try to open a Samba share on your linux box, using a windows box, and your Win box says;

    "Sorry Kip, I can't let you do that. You are trying to access files on an unsecure OS."
  • Hardware (Score:4, Interesting)

    by truthsearch ( 249536 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:25AM (#5901295) Homepage Journal
    Many of the functions that will be built into hardware were emulated by software because the chips are not yet built.

    Wasn't the main argument by Microsoft that security would have to be implemented at the hardware level to be truely secure? The only reason this is such a big deal is because his plan is to more tightly integrate his software with hardware for security purposes. If so much of this could be implemented as only software, doesn't that already prove the point that this isn't a necessary technology (at least not the way they are portraying it)? I personally don't believe this tight coupling of secure software with secure hardware will be the panacea Bill's talking about, but this demo helps prove this hardware push is more about integration and control than security.
  • ...who happened to be played by a Microsoft worker dressed in a red T-shirt adorned with a skull...

    Hmmm...They finally have gotten uniforms in line with the corporate culture...

  • But the story says that communications between programs "could not be intercepted." I am assuming this means that it is encrypted, and that in this system the hardware stores some kind of unique private key. If this is the case, there is nothing new here that open source software hasn't provided. We have GnuGP for trusted email, and OpenSSH for shells, file transfers, and there's even a plugin for Gaim!

    I don't understand why you would want some sort of hardware encryption. Because lets say AMD/Intel pr
  • by bdaehlie ( 537484 )
    Thank God Steve Jobs is a vegan...
  • by smartin ( 942 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:28AM (#5901317)
    M$ is going to be successful at this because they know what buttons to push:
    • You will be safe from viruses.
    • You will be able to avoid spam.
    • You can protect your content.
    • We will enable delivery of digital content.
    • Tigher system security.

    The people that respond to these buttons will be the government, content and software companies, corporations and joe dumb user. Most of these people either don't think about or care about the hidden agenda chained to M$'s master plan. This agenda includes:
    • Expansion of the the monopoly by locking out competators.
    • New monopoly in content encapsulation and delivery.
    • Absolute control of what will and will not run on a PC.
    • Loss of fair use.
  • Hmm (Score:5, Funny)

    by TitusC3v5 ( 608284 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:31AM (#5901337) Homepage
    I think I just decided to buy a Mac.
  • by gosand ( 234100 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @10:39AM (#5901423)
    OK, so Gates says that they won't force people to use it. Uh-huh. As with the EULA, he reserves the right to change his mind at a later date of his choosing.

    So in 5 years, all AMD and Intel chips will have DRM enabled, and Windows will have it on by default. There is absolutely nothing to prevent this from happening. Now in this scenario, if you find a way to disable the DRM, either in the chip or in the software, you can be prosecuted under the DMCA. Or maybe detained without a trial under the Patriot Act as a threat to national security. (if they succeed in getting it made permanent)

    Maybe I am creating a "worst case" scenario, but it is certainly plausible. Who would have thought 5 years ago that the US would be able to hold a few hundred people captive without a trial. Or that a college student would be sued for creating a search engine. Or a programmer would be arrested and held in jail for speaking at a security conference. Or a printer cartridge manufacturer would be sued because they are making generic cartridges. Or any of the other BS that has come out of the DMCA. Some people said "Oh, if the DMCA get abused, it will be repealed because the people won't stand for it." Here is a hint: it has been abused repeatedly, and it is nowhere near being repealed. Things are getting worse.

  • by MrIcee ( 550834 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @11:04AM (#5901680) Homepage
    ...is that this can ALSO be used to restrict software developers, especially us little guys. M$ has frequently done things (such as pricing development tools, etc..) so that it is becoming harder and harder to be a player in the software arena. By forcing DRM they may very well also force *certification*... that is, their hardware won't run *my* software unless I pony up to the M$ bar with lots of cash, hand over my source code to them, and in general pay to belong to their elite club.

    Would they do this? Sure, in a rats ass moment they would... first, it would bring them revenue from companies who want to get software published (CHARGE THE DEVELOPERS!!!)... second, they would have to certify it so they would require the source code... hmmmm... look at what they're doing in this chunk of code (SUE!!!!) or ... hmmm, look at what they're doing in this chunk of code (STEAL, PATENT AND SUE!!!!). And consider someone perhaps M$ doesn't like... guess what, it doesn't pass certification... period.

    As an independent game development company [tqworld.com] without the resources of the giants, this type of move scares me shitless.

    I'd say aloha in leaving, but I have no aloha for the likes of bill gates and his ilk.

  • Opt different (Score:3, Insightful)

    by sjames ( 1099 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @12:14PM (#5902464) Homepage Journal

    We have opt out, but what about opt-different

    Will I have the option to USE the DRM hardware to enforce my own security policies? Will that be made easy (freely available documentation and utilities), hard (flash my own BIOS), really hard (get out the soldering iron), or nearly impossible (crack this massive key or cut this connection in the CPU's core).

    That's the real question. Unless it's easy, they're just making the consumer pay for things they don't necessarily want.

  • by rice_burners_suck ( 243660 ) on Wednesday May 07, 2003 @04:48PM (#5905501)
    Choose MY company's alternative and get stuck with OUR innovative EULA:

    Mikreausauft Corporation

    END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT (EULA)

    1. By us having written this license agreement, you have agreed to be bound by its terms. Such bondage shall commence at the instant this document is written and shall persist for all of eternity or until the universe self destructs, whichever happens last, and applies even if you are unaware of such application.

    2. You agree that you wish to be bound by the terms of this agreement and that if any statement or clause in this agreement is found unenforceable by a court of law, such a clause will still remain in effect. The previous statement includes itself. You agree to challenge the judge in said court of law to a duel.

    3. PRICE. You agree that all of your physical and/or intellectual property now belongs to Mikreausauft Corporation, including but not limited to all of your money, your house(s), your car(s), your personal belongings and those of your family, friends, coworkers and enemies, and any other property that used to belong to you or any of the aforementioned people, and any other property. You agree that under the terms of this license agreement, we are doing you a huge favor by allowing you to pretend that what used to be your property still is, but that may change at any moment without prior notice. You agree that at any time, with or without notice of any kind, we, including our agents and representatives, may enter into the property that used to be yours in order to search and/or access any property therein, as it belongs to us and it is our right to access it. You agree that such search and seizure shall commence with or without a search warrant, with or without your permission, and with or without any other such legal procedure. You agree that you forfeit the right to due process and may be arrested by us or any of our agents and representatives for any reason and without the right to a fair trial, if one is given at all. You agree that you are our slave forever and ever and that you have no rights under this agreement. You agree that you have signed your soul over to us, that we own you, and that you are our material property to do with as we please. You agree that because Mikreausauft Corporation is a huge multibillion dollar multinational corporation, Mikreausauft Corporation is entitled under the laws of the universe and by divine privelege to eternal perpetually increasing profits.

    3. GRANT OF LICENSE. This EULA grants you the following rights: Not applicable.

    4. LIMITATIONS. You may NOT use the software product that you have paid for. You may NOT return the product for a full or partial refund. You may NOT install the product on any number of computers, including but not limited to zero, one, two, any negative number, any positive number, any rational or irrational number, any real number, any complex number, any imaginary number, any infinite number, any number on any number system or mathematical theory now known, later developed or previously forgotten, any number in any base system, including but not limited to binary, octal, decimal, hexadecimal or any other base system, any number expressed in any numeral system including but not limited to the Roman numerals, Arabic numerals, or any other numeral system, any number recorded by any method or by any means, including but not limited to numbers stored in the digital memory banks of any storage and retrieval system, numbers written on paper, refrigerator magnets, cavemen scribblings or engravings on granite boulders or any other type of rock material, or any other number. The software product may NOT be used by any number of processors on the allowed number of computers. The software product may NOT be used on any day of the week, including but not limited to Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, any day with a name in any language, or any other day. You may NOT reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, twist, spin, poke, prod, mutilate, cut o

  • by serutan ( 259622 ) <snoopdoug AT geekazon DOT com> on Thursday May 08, 2003 @12:44AM (#5908207) Homepage
    Users can opt to "turn off" the system when it becomes available, most likely in the next generation of Windows expected in 2004 or 2005. But doing so might well severely hamper consumers' access to digital information that's important to them -- and which may indeed be necessary in their work environment.

    Bill's concept of giving Windows users a choice regarding security features is kind of like Senator Bob Dole's concept of giving U.S. citizens a choice of health-care.

    For those too young to remember, Dole ran for president against Bill Clinton and lost. Dole repeatedly justified his vehement opposition to a national health-care system by claiming that consumers would lose the element of choice that they now enjoy with our wonderful corporate-controlled system. He actually said on TV, "Do you want a bunch of guys in suits deciding what your health care choices are?" I remember wondering at the time whether he was talking about some hypothetical big-government guys-in-suits, or the real-life guys-in-suits who run insurance companies and HMOs, who currently make those decisions for us. For most Americans with normal incomes, "health care choice" consists of whatever is offered by the company where they are currently hanging onto a job.

    The idea that Windows users will have a meaningful choice about using Palladium security is just such a fantasy. Yeah, if you want to isolate yourself from all commercially produced content, go ahead and turn off Palladium. It's your choice. While you're at it, go ahead and disconnect from the power grid and the phone system. Like it's that easy.

    I've been wondering for a while what in the hell Microsoft possibly thinks is going to inspire people to junk their PCs and buy new hardware so they can run Palladium Windows. Particularly the 40 million Win98 users who still haven't done that. Will MS invoke an obscure EULA clause that allows them to outlaw using the OS after a certain date? Will they simply stop supplying security patches and let virus authors do the rest?

    I now believe Microsoft's deployment plan is to get content providers on board, with the promise of total copyright control and self-destructing documents that will force a subscription model on everybody. Of course, Microsoft won't be the bad guy any more than Grokster is the bad guy -- they're only providing a platform.

    Bill and Steve know that most people want to be part of the world they live in. The teeming masses don't crave the adventure of living in a yurt with a solar panel and a shortwave radio. If major content providers announce a deadline after which all new documents will be inaccessible to older systems, people will buy new systems.

    If Linux can be locked out by DMCA and other means, then the consumer computing world will be even more sharply divided than it was in the early Apple/IBM days. Bill is counting on most people wanting to stay in the mainstream, and I think he's right. It's called the mainstream for a reason.

    At this point I don't see any way that anybody is going to prevent Microsoft from doing what it wants to do. The only question is whether it will actually work. Doubters can glibly forecast that the first time Palladium gets hacked will spell doom, but a constant stream of security problems hasn't stopped Windows so far. It's possible that Bill has already played his last card and sitting back smiling, waiting for everybody to realize that he has already won the game.
  • Hardware (Score:3, Insightful)

    by awol ( 98751 ) on Thursday May 08, 2003 @05:31AM (#5908873) Journal
    With all the talk about how DRM enabled hardware will "lock out" the use of non DRM enabled software, I am prompted to say.

    I choose not to play the game. I am happy to miss out on the latest DRM enabled whizz bang thing (as I have posted before). But let us assume that the mainstream hardware manufacturers go down the path of pandering to the DRM zealots.

    Can we create open hardware. I mean, I know that there are certain open hardware products, but can we really create a "Free (as in speech) Hardware" movement, or is the capital barrier too high. Can we get the Fab plant to make chips/drives motherboards, can we even get the designs for hardware to use? If we cannot then are we screwed or is there market enought in the non-DRM world enough for the manufacturers to justify sales, will they even be permitted to manufacture the hardware regardless of the potential market. Will the Chinese come to our rescue by virtue by being big enough and ugly enough to tell the DRM driven west where to get off and proceed to make the un crippled hardware we require?

    And even more important than all this, will the governments that are increasing the services they provide via technology based means (for example the internet) retain free standards that do not require their citizens to use a particular OS/DRM regime in order to interact with the organs of the state. It is this aspect of the whole thing that to me is most scary. Scary because it is the classic path to disenfranchisement. Which is a bad thing(TM).

    It is the use of IP to restrain access to unencumbered hardware and similary access the services that my government demands I use that concerns me. Whether I get to use the latest online game or not really doesn't matter.

I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. -- Isaac Asimov

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