"DVD-Jon" Faces Retrial 366
An anonymous reader submits: "Norway's special division for white-collar crimes, Økokrim, has decided to appeal the acquittal of 19-year-old Jon Lech Johansen, accused of copyright violation for helping bypass DVD code protection, web site Nettavisen reports."
You know what the lawyers say... (Score:3, Funny)
Is that even legal? (Score:2)
Re:Is that even legal? (Score:2, Informative)
In the US, prosecution would have to find new evidence. Also, in the US, someone could get acquitted at the state level, but re-prosecuted at the federal level. For example, the cops who beat up Rodney King were re-tried at the federal courts (and found guilty), after being let loose in CA state courts.
Re:Is that even legal? (Score:2)
Re:Is that even legal? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Is that even legal? (Score:2)
Re:Is that even legal? (Score:5, Informative)
As you say, a second sovereign -- e.g., the federal government, after a state trial -- can try you separately, whether or not you are acquited in the first trial, without violating double jeopardy, but many states' laws still would prevent them from being the second trial. In copyright cases, though, this is irrelevant, since states can't enforce copyright laws (as defined in federal law).
Yes, IAAL.
Re:Is that even legal? (Score:2, Funny)
yes, I checked it out, and you're correct. I found somehting at findlaw that said so. I was certain that if new evidence were found that charges could be re-filed and the person re-tried.
fark linked article says otherwise (Score:3, Interesting)
Boastful killer shows the court who's stupid [iol.co.za]
No, it doesn't (Score:2)
See the difference?
Re:fark linked article says otherwise (Score:3, Informative)
The original 2000 conviction and death sentence were overturned by the Virginia Supreme Court when the justices ruled that the older girl's murder and her sister's rape were not parts of the same crime. Under Virginia law, that is a necessary element for capital punishment. The murder has to be "aggravated" by some other crime, like a rape or a robbery, in order to become a capital murder.
According to the authorities, his motive was the fact that the murder victim had been dating a black guy. (To get a feel for the type of genius we're talking about.) In the letter, he explained how he stabbed and killed the older girl after she resisted his attempts to rape her. Then he drank an iced tea, sat down on the couch, and smoked a cigarette, while he waited for her younger sister to come home from school so he could rape her.
In the earlier trial there had apparently been no physical evidence of any attempted rape of the older girl, and she was dead and not talking. So the capital murder conviction was predicated on the younger girl's rape being part of the same crime. By declaring them as being two separate crimes, the court had decoupled them, rendering the capital murder conviction invalid. But the letter blew this logic out of the water, by establishing that there had been an attempted rape of the older girl (a crime for which the defendant had not been tried) and by providing continuity between the crimes inflicted on each of the two sisters. Since there had never been an acquittal, only an overturned conviction, the prosecution was free to try the case again in light of the new evidence.
What's interesting is the intense personal relationship that seems to have developed on both sides between this guy and the prosecutor. This is what apparently incited the stupid letter in the first place.
"Since
What a dumbass!
Re:Is that even legal? (Score:5, Informative)
1) You cannot be tried for the *same* crime twice, however, prosecutors can amend or change the crimes in which you are being tried for ie: you are no longer tried for the murder of Joe, just maybe a nice inditement of manslaughter.
2)Double Jeopardy doesn't count on appeal. Normally the losing side can appeal if there was a trial error or they want to fight a ruling the judge made on a point in the trial (including evidence that shouldn't have been, allowing a surprise witness - a procedural error).
3) Unlike the Movie - you CAN'T be tried and convicted for killing someone (for instance) and then actually kill them. Those are actually TWO separate crimes. Makes for a good movie, but the law isn't paid attention to. That's where you just have to sue the state for negligence, or whatever fancy scheme you can get your lawyer to concoct.
Re:Is that even legal? (Score:2, Funny)
3) Unlike the Movie - you CAN'T be tried and convicted for killing someone (for instance) and then actually kill them. Those are actually TWO separate crimes. Makes for a good movie, but the law isn't paid attention to.
Uhh... did you watch the movie?
-a
Re:Is that even legal? (Score:5, Informative)
1) You cannot be tried for the *same* crime twice, however, prosecutors can amend or change the crimes in which you are being tried for ie: you are no longer tried for the murder of Joe, just maybe a nice inditement of manslaughter.
Wrong. Since the facts needed to prove murder are sufficient to prove manslaughter, this prosecution would indeed violate double jeopardy. The second charge needn't be identical to the first.
2)Double Jeopardy doesn't count on appeal. Normally the losing side can appeal if there was a trial error or they want to fight a ruling the judge made on a point in the trial (including evidence that shouldn't have been, allowing a surprise witness - a procedural error).
Wrong again. Once jeopardy has "attached" -- the swearing of the jury, or of the first witness in a bench trial -- the prosecution cannot appeal. Again, it makes no difference how profound the alleged errors are. In a well-known case, the judge dismissed the charges because he wrongly believed the prosecution had done something unethical, which the judge didn't even have jurisdiction to do; but a retrial was barred nevertheless.
OT, but "allowing a surprise witness" would not typically be reversible error in any case.
Re:Is that even legal? (Score:2)
1) You cannot be tried for the *same* crime twice, however, prosecutors can amend or change the crimes in which you are being tried for ie: you are no longer tried for the murder of Joe, just maybe a nice inditement of manslaughter.
What are you talking about? Once a person has been aquitted for murder, you can not then charge them with manslaughter. That is a "lesser included crime" and can not be tried seperately.
2)Double Jeopardy doesn't count on appeal. Normally the losing side can appeal if there was a trial error or they want to fight a ruling the judge made on a point in the trial (including evidence that shouldn't have been, allowing a surprise witness - a procedural error).
What legal system are you talking about? Double Jeopardy _ONLY_ applies to an appeal. Otherwise what the hell would the double jeopardy be? Once a person has been aquitted of a crime, there is (almost) no way to retry them for the same crime. The only thing you could do is: if a person is aquitted of murder, you could then try them for something like embezzlement, assuming it was not related to the murder. Not to mention, this does not happen in the US 99.99999% of the time because it would undermind the legal system.
The only way to actually retry a person for the exact same crime, is if for example:
the person on trial paid someone to lie during the trial. The only reason this would fail is because you can not "profit from a crime" and the profit would be freedom and the crime would be purjury or bribery. This is almost never used as an excuse to try to get a retrial.
3) Unlike the Movie - you CAN'T be tried and convicted for killing someone (for instance) and then actually kill them. Those are actually TWO separate crimes. Makes for a good movie, but the law isn't paid attention to. That's where you just have to sue the state for negligence, or whatever fancy scheme you can get your lawyer to concoct.
This does not make any sense. It was a movie. Please return to reality.
-sirket
Yes, it would be... (Score:3, Insightful)
This isn't the first time that I've heard of an acquittal being appealed, I think that there was something in Italy in the last couple of years that made news for such.
Not quite true.. (Score:2, Informative)
I quote http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d075.htm:
"the courts have decided that since the state and federal governments are separate sovereigns and therefore successive prosecutions based on the same underlying conduct do not violate the Double Jeopardy Clause if the prosecutions are brought by separate sovereigns. See, e.g., U.S. v. Koon, 34 F.3d 1416, 1438 (9th Cir.'94)"
Which is essentially what has happened here. The case is tried at a local level and being appealed to a regional court.
Re:Is that even legal? (Score:2, Informative)
So no Double Jeopardy.
Remember OJ Simpson? (Score:2)
Re:Remember OJ Simpson? (Score:2)
Oh for crying out loud (Score:2, Insightful)
disclaimer: may be over simplified as i dont know the full situation
STEALING! (Score:2, Funny)
Stealing is bad, u-kay?
Actually no (Score:5, Insightful)
No, he's guilty of creating a tool that could possibly be used for stealing, but doesn't necessarily have to be used for stealing.
It's more like he's being prosecuted for having invented the crowbar. Suppose all shipments within a country or countries come in boxes that require you to purchase an ACME-brand "crate opener" for you to retrieve your shipped items. However, ACME doesn't provide their brand-named crate-opener in your neck of the woods. You decide that since you bought the crate yourself, you are entitled to the contents. So you invent the crowbar and pry the crate open to reap the sweet sweet goods inside.
But now you've bypassed the purpose of ACME-brand crate-openers, so ACME prosecutes you. They claim that since you can now use your crowbar to open crates that you didn't buy, you are thus guilty of theft.
The whole question really boils down to whether you are entitled to open the crate that you have purchased. And is having possession a tool that MIGHT be used for stealing illegal?
Crowbars can be used to smash windows, pry open doors and crates not belonging to you, and all other sorts of nasty stuff. But they do have legitimate and legal purpose. So, is it illegal for me to possess a crowbar since it can make stealing much easer? Would it have been illegal for me to invent the crowbar (mostly a trivial invention, but still)?
This case is not just a simple black/white issue of stealing.
Re:Actually no (Score:3, Insightful)
To really nitpick, he's guilty of creating a tool that could possibly be used for copyright infringement, not theft. To my knowledge, and rhetoric aside, no one claims that piracy is stealing (in the legal sense), but rather a violation of the copyright.
A better (but still flawed) analogy would be to suggest he's being prosecuted for having invented the Xerox machine.
Re:STEALING! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:STEALING! (Score:2)
Where is the guilt? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Where is the guilt? (Score:2)
Øh shit! (Score:3, Insightful)
doo doo doo doo doo doo doooooo.. (Score:5, Funny)
Good luck contestants...
Suck it Trebek! Hahahahaha (Score:2, Funny)
Alex: "That's Therapists... not The Rapists"
Sorry, I know I know... But it had to be said.
I guess Double Jepordy exist in Norway (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I guess Double Jepordy exist in Norway (Score:3, Informative)
What happened in LA and elsewhere is that the defendants were charged with a crime in two different jurisdictions. In the US, the state and federal governments are sovereign and each has a fair crack at any defendant. The federal government has not historically performed general police duties outside of military bases and the like (although this is starting to change, a troubling prospect to many people), but it has passed some limited laws to cover those cases where local authorities appear indifferent to Constitutional rights. That's why there were federal laws passed to protect civil rights workers in the 50s, and those same laws were used in the recent cases after, and only after, the defendants were acquitted in state courts.
Re:I guess Double Jepordy exist in Norway (Score:2)
It is not a matter of Jurisdiction, but different laws. The constitution states(held up by the first supreme court) that Federal law is primary over all laws passed by the states. The fundamental result of this is that you can have one and only one law governing an action (I forget the fancy latin principle for this).
In practice this means that you can not be tried for the same crime at different levels of jurisdiction, because only one jurisdiction has the guiding law in the first place. What generally happens is that you are tried for DIFFERENT crimes on the two levels.
The Rodney King incident is a great example of this. The first charge against the police officers involved was done at the state level, in a state court. I beleive it was some kind of assault charge, but I really don't remember. When they where aquitted of those charges, the feds got involved and brought SEPERATE charges for DIFFERENT crimes (even though they occured during the same incident). At the federal level, I beleive that it was some kind of civil rights charge.
The point being, you can't be charged in two jurisdictions for the same crime, you either violated one and only one law for that particular crime. Anytime you see someone charged by both the state and the federal levels it is always because different charges are being brought on each level.
Its important to note that the state can do the same thing. They can try you for one crime, and failing that bring up new charges related to the same action (although a lot of legal rules apply to that, and it is pretty rarely done).
Actions since your arrest (Score:2, Interesting)
So how do you respond to the hundreds of wannabes who rip and trade DVD movies "in your honor"?
Are those folks adding to your cause of Free Speech and Free Movie Software, and if so, do you feel you owe them anything?
i dont know about you guys but... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:i dont know about you guys but... (Score:3, Interesting)
Uhm, yeah, that sure is what they're doing. With all the interviews, and autobiographies, and biographies, and such he sure will be punished.
Who in the computer industry doesn't know DeCSS or Jon, at least at some level. How many people think his resume will shine more than any others in competition.
Rough times for a bit, but in the end, he'll continue to be acquitted and can make money off his trials and tribulations.
Re:i dont know about you guys but... (Score:2)
First, I'd like to ask O.J.'s (ex-)wife how she feels about the situation.
Defendant's rights? (Score:5, Insightful)
It may be completely different in his country anyways...
Re:Defendant's rights? (Score:2, Informative)
How appeals work, in general (Score:5, Informative)
I know nothing about non-U.S. legal systems, and hopefully somebody who knows about Norwegian jurisprudence will answer, but the general principle behind appeals in legal systems is this:
The first court that tries you is the finder of fact. Unless that whole trial is thrown out (and you get a new one), the facts determined in that trial are beyond question in the process. However, the court has to apply rules to the process of the trial and to the facts that come out, in order to get an outcome. Those rules can be both formal laws and legal procedures. (In real life, the line between facts and rules gets blurred, which both sides try to use to their advantage, but that's a different topic.)
Appeals apply to these rules, not the facts. So an appeal isn't just a second chance to start over and get a different trial outcome. It is a challenge that the process in the previous trial was in violation of those rules in some very specific way. (Or, many specific ways, since most appeals are a laundry list of possible violations, hoping the appeals court will find at least one they like.)
This is true already in the U.S. when those found guilty appeal their convictions, or when either party in a civil trial appeals the outcome. This is why appeals often force the original trial to be thrown out: they clarify the application of a rule as it applies to this case, then you have to start over and apply that rule correctly this time.
There's no reason in principle that this couldn't be applied to appealing acquitals as well. In principle, if somebody is acquitted because a judge made a mistake in applying a rule about admissibility of evidence or jury instructions, it might be reasonable to say that the acquital was flawed, and is contrary to justice, and shouldn't be honored.
There's a question of rights, which is a big one. There's also a questions of "That's not how we do it in the U.S.!!!!", which, if it isn't backed up with something else, isn't much of an argument. But I'm just speaking to the principle of appeals in general terms.
IANAL, yadda.
Re:How appeals work, in general (Score:3, Informative)
In the US it's called double jeopardy and is explicitly forbidden by the constitution. If the judge screws up the process and you are aquitted it is final. The government does not get the chance to try try again.
I *think* there is an exeption if you are later convicted of jury tampering, bribing the judge or something similar. I believe in that case they declare that you didn't really get a trial the first time therefor double jeopardy does not apply.
I think another exception is that seperate governments can try you for the same crime - New York State and the the US Federal court for example. But every other state must abide by the New York State verdict (based on the "full faith and credit" clause of the constitution). So California can't try you.
An while we are on the topic of double jeopardy I'd like to vent one of my pet peeves. The movie "Double Jeopardy" was bullshit. If Ashley Judd killed her husband at the end of the movie she would have been tried and convicted - again. It would NOT have been double jeopardy. Breaking the same law on a different date is a completely seperate instance of a crime. If you rob a bank in Janyary and you rob the same bank in June you can be convicted of both robberies - two seperate crimes.
But of course all of this only applies to the United States, and naturally I am not a laywer.
-
Re:Defendant's rights? (Score:2, Informative)
Also, most people think that it's common for the defense to appeal and win. It's not - in California, at least, it's a percent or two of cases at most.
Re:Defendant's rights? (Score:2)
Once acquited, acquited for good. No appeals by the prosecution as to any issue, law or fact. The cases you refer to are all appeals by defendants, not prosecutors.
Re:Defendant's rights? (Score:2)
So at most a case can only be appealed twice, and you can only have your case tried in supreme court if it somehow touches a subject not tried before in courts.
And yes, if you were acquited in the first, you have a preatty good case in the next, the prosecution has to come up with some reasons for the appeal, and then new evidence, claims of injustice or just new "angles" on the case.
Once. Not over and over. (Score:3, Informative)
But once the case has gone through that process, you can not be retried for the same crime. So it is still not possible for the gevernment to harass people by retrying them again and again in perpetuity, which was the abuse of power the US constitution "double jeopardy" rule was designed to avoid.
Re:Sigh (Score:2)
Of course, YMMV.
Re:Sigh (Score:2)
Re:Sigh (Score:3, Informative)
Two other points, as long as I'm writing:
1) Even under US law, double jeopardy only applies to criminal charges, not civic suits. Of course, trying to make that distinction is even tougher than explaing that Johansen isn't being charged with a DMCA violation.
2) If they feel it is fair, legal, whatever, that is their system, their law, their right. -- I'd agree with that more if the Europeans spent less time whining about the death penalty in the US (which their own citizens support with majorities or large minorities, but that's another issue...).
A bit surprised (Score:5, Informative)
However my concerne now is that if the appeal goes through (I believe that - in Norway - most appeals at this level do) it will be tried in front of a jury, which means this case can be on hold for ever. In the previous instance they had trouble finding only 2 laymen who could understand the technicalities of the case.
Re:A bit surprised (Score:5, Informative)
There's only one thing in the verdict that was not completely clear, and that would be the conclusion if the prosecutors had tried to prove that DeCSS had been used for unauthorized copying. They didn't try to prove that, and that was noted in the verdict. That might be one thing they will try to work on I guess.
Right now, there is no news, really, other than "yeah, we'll appeal". They have to come up with the documents by tomorrow, that is when the interesting things happen.
Another thing I can't understand that there are somebody who would want to put their career on the line for this case. The reaction after the acquittal was pretty clear among computer professionals and the press, it was a win for consumers and a big loss for Økokrim.
On one hand, I really hope they get another big loss, OTOH, it is hardly something to cheer for that we do not have a working computer crime unit. If somebody breaks into my box, I want them spanked, but I really can't report any such breakin to a police unit as corrupt as ours, as that would lend their objectionable political agenda some legitimity. I think many if not most of Norway's computer professionals feel the same.
Re:A bit surprised (Score:5, Informative)
The norwegian system is built up by three stages: Tingretten, Lagmansretten and Høyesterett (the supreme court.) In that order. The first instance - where Johansen was acquited - consisted of one professional judge and two laymen. The second instance consists of a jury with where a person must be found guilty by at least half the members (or maybe it was 2/3.) The supreme court is much like the american with 7 (I think) professional judges.
There is no such thing as double jeopardy in Norway, but you don't automatically get a re-trial based on an appeal. Between the first two stages (where the case is now) I believe it's possible to appeal simply because you disagree. This means that if you can argue your appeal well, introduce new evidence or something like that you get a re-trial. However you can only appeal to the supreme court based on wrong utilisation of the law, interpertation of the law or technical errors in which they can either order a re-trial, adjust the sentence or dismiss the case.
Now I've probably missed a great deal of points and said things that aren't correct, but this should enlighten you're view on the Norwegian courts. (Which believe it or not differ from the American.)
Re:A bit surprised (Score:2, Informative)
Enough is enough! (Score:2)
Sven, we cood be famoos, yah? (Score:5, Funny)
Sven: Yah.
Lars: Always giving trooble to the dirty accountants and such, yah?
Sven: Yah. Lars, eets very boring.
Lars: So Sven, lets go after thees kid, Jon Lech Johansen. He ees famous, does theengs with compooters.
Sven: Yah. We cood be on T.V.
Lars: Yah. Famoos.
Re:Sven, we cood be famoos, yah? (Score:5, Interesting)
And if you don't believe me, I'll introduce you to my mother-in-law, for whom "Ja" is a four sylable word with a two octave range, and who did not understand any of the dialect jokes in "Fargo", because that *is* the way she talks.
Legitimate use (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Legitimate use (Score:3, Insightful)
1) Guns - armed robbery, murder, etc
2) Cars - often used to leave the scene of a crime.
3) Telephones - wire fraud, scams, illegal wiretaps.
4) Clothes - commonly used by thieves, murderers, policitians, etc. Oh, sorry, strike out policitians - they're supposed to make outrageous election promises that nobody expects them to keep...
5) Air (Score:3, Funny)
You hit the nail on the head though. In Canada there's a tariff on CD-R's just because they *might* be used to copy music. Not sure about DVD-R tariffs though...it's all so stupid!
Re:5) Air (Score:2)
As for DVD-Rs, theoretically they ought to be immune from tariffs because the CSS key portion is already written over with junk. Bet the MPAA/RIAA still find a way to levy a tax on them, though. They'll probably claim that the DVD-R can still store DVD-ripped-to-AVI's, not to mention a ferocious quantity of MP3s. Speaking of which, any bets on how long it takes them to get the same tax levied on hard disks, for the same reason??
Re:Legitimate use (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been pondering something lately that, strangely, I don't ever recall seeing discussed on
Neglecting the ridiculous DMCA, what exactly is the law (US and otherwise) on making copies of legally purchased products for personal consumption, i.e. "private home viewing" on devices other than those sanctioned by the copyopoly? All my videos and DVDs have statements on them forbidding duplication. Most make vague references to "US and International Law" forbidding copying. There is no fine print about fair use. I know US law set out parameters for some of these things in the "betamax case" and "Audio Home Recording Act of 1992", but is the warning in the leader of these media a statement backed by clear law, or is it equivalent to a EULA, a term of purchase agreement which to my knowledge has so far not been proven legally binding (at least I hear people saying over and over they're waiting for a case to challenge them)?
I know there are pending bills in the US Congress to explicitly deliniate fair use rights, but where do we currently stand? DMCA covers defeat of copy control measures, but in the absence of these, is there anything in the law that says creating a mix CD or duplicating an unprotected VHS (why, I can't imagine, given the quality degradation) is llegal when done for one's personal use?
IAALs please chime in!
Re:Legitimate use (Score:3, Informative)
The warnings on tapes have no legal force whatsoever.
server melting.... melting.... (Score:5, Informative)
Posterboy (Score:4, Interesting)
It seems like Norwegian authorities are trying to make Johansen a cybercrime posterboy as the US did to Mitnick.
xenaphobe wants to know ... (Score:3, Interesting)
I know this is a bit xenaphobic, but what does this ruling mean to those of us in the U.S.? If it's overturned, or if the ruling stands, will it have any impact on those of us under the DMCA and the RIAA?
RTFA (Score:5, Funny)
The head of Økokrim's computer crimes division said that the reasons for the appeal would be in their offices Monday afternoon.
I guess they had a meeting with the MPAA today?
GREAT news! (Score:3, Interesting)
That's why I'm in favour of this latest development.
Re:GREAT news! (Score:3, Informative)
That would be quite an achievement - considering the fact, that Norway isn't a member of the EU.
Rumagent
Haven't I seen this before? (Score:2)
Sources say the legal team was threatened by the MPAA with a movie about them that totally skews the actual facts and makes them look like idiots. When asked if they meant it, the MPAA said, "One word: Takedown." The appeal was filed within the hour...
Re:Bizarre (Score:3, Informative)
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:4, Funny)
The real lesson here, I think, is that The Forces Of Evil never rest in their attempts to persecute hackers for actions that should not, by any sane measure, be crimes at all. This is apparently no less true in Norway than anywhere else.
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:4, Funny)
Not after the verdict is in. Then, jeopardy is attached.
Jeez, don't you ever watch "Law and Order"?
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:2)
There are several other kinds of "manifest necessity" that will lead to mistrials with retrial possible; the biggest category is those that come on defense motion.
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:2)
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:2)
There are two significant events for purposes of the Double Jeopardy Clause: first, jeopardy attaches in most cases when the fact-finder (the jury, for example) begins to receive evidence; second, jeopardy terminates with the determination that the State has or has not proved the merits of the case against the accused.
The whole point of "double jeopardy" is that once a person has endured this process, he or she may not be put the stress and expense of going through it again for the same offense.
While you can appeal to emotion? (Score:2, Funny)
Yep, that's exactly it. We live in movie land where everything is black and white, hackers vs. Evil Corporation X, and computer operating systems look like virtual reality.
If you want to support your case, may I suggest you tone down the rhetoric a bit? "Forces of Evil" and "any sane measure" are appeals to emotion... but we want this to be objective, right? Right?
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:5, Interesting)
We had a case of a man who was first acquited by a city court then found guilty by a national court. But he fled to England and now can't be extradicted, because according to a brittish law, you can't be tried for same crime twice. (in america this is called double jepardy)
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:2)
Rather than engaging in discussion on hackers vs. The Establishment, take a step back from the keyboard and think like they do.
Here are a group of law enforcement personnel contacted by a large corporation identifying a case of compter-related theft.
I'm pretty sure the investigators listened to Jon's argument about Linux and use of his legal DVD's. But when a semi or non-literate computer user (a Windows computer user) who can play DVDs on his bundled player in his store-bought Microsoft-equipped PC will probably think to themselves that a legal, sanctioned solution to the problem exists, and if it doesn't work for Jon, then he should have be using an approved method such as Windows.
It's not necessarily evil intentions, it could just be a simple case of plain ignorance as well.
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:3, Informative)
ONE recent case (in the Seventh Circuit) allowed a retrial where the acquital was a result of bribery (!!!) (on the grounds that the tainted trial was no "trial" at all), but the court didn't reach the merits of the issue, and the better rule is to prohibit retrial even in this situation.
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:4, Interesting)
This would not be permitted where there is protection from double jeopardy, such as afforded by the Magna Carta or the Bill of Rights.
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:5, Informative)
Not sure about the legal system in Norway, but in the U.S. and Canada, appeals must be based on possible mistakes of law or mixed fact/law at the trial level. This can result in a different verdict, or in a trial de novo. The intention, however, is not usually to retry the case. Rulings regarding fact usually remain intact from the trial level, unless there has been some obvious gross error.
Seriously, what's so strange about it? If trial judges can make mistakes of law in favour of the prosecution, they wouldn't occasionally do the same in favour of the accused? And shouldn't the justice system be able to say: hold on! That piece of evidence should have been admitted (or whatever the alleged mistake was)
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:2)
We tend to perfer (on paper at least) to err on the side of the innocent, since we see it as a greater wrong to imprison the wrong person.
Without double jeopardy, a well funded person with a grudge could just continue to retry a case until they got the result desired (i.e. conviction)
Now, I realize a bunch of people are going to nitpick on the symantics, and it's easy to take cheap shots, but I think I have the original intent correct.
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:2, Insightful)
Logically, yes. Practically, no. I don't think anyone is opposed to someone guilty being found guilty and if new evidence is found or an error in the original trial would have resulted in a guilty verdict, logic says the guilty person should be retried.
In reality, once a person is found innocent then that should be it. That's why we (supposedly) can't be tried for the same crime twice. The risk is that if we aren't protected from being retried, we can be retried and harrased for the rest of our lives for strictly political or other reasons. The threat of that can be used to keep people from speaking up against corrupt officials or against people with more money than they that could pay to keep you pretty much on trial for the rest of your life. We aren't protected from being retried to let the guilty get away, but to keep the innocent from being harrased, or the guilty from being harrased after they've "paid their due to society" or whatever.
Unfortunately, ever since the Rodney King verdict I've come to realize that we aren't really protected. First they charged the officers, they got off (for better or for worse), and then after the riots they were retried on other charges. That was BS. Criminals should be charged with the maximum crime for a given event and that's it. I.e., if beating up Rodney King could result in a charge of Assault, Misuse of Police Authority, or violation of his civil rights, they should pick the "most severe" charge and that's the charge. At the very least, all charges for a given event should be filed before the trial starts. To charge the police, get an innocent verdict and then say, "Oh, we'll go ahead and accuse them of violating his civil rights" was completely BS in my opinion. There may be some legal justification for why they could do that, but the *spirit* of protection from double jeapordy was certainly violated that day.
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:3, Interesting)
O.J. (for better or for worse) was acquitted. Yet through the loophole of Civil vs. criminal trials, he was tried again for civil damages and found guilty. This was a sham. This loophole should be closed. A not guilty verdict should mean just that. (again, this is not a testimony to his guilt or innocence, but rather an on topic comment that Not Guilty should mean Not Guilty!) Even in the case of DVD Jon.
And BTW, if he is convicted, wont we all sleep better at night knowing that he is off the streets!?!
WTF?
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:4, Informative)
In the U.S., Double jeopardy absolutely bars prosecution appeals. Totally and completely. That's why you never hear about them, or see them in movies: they don't exist.
That's right. Even if the judge totally screws up. Whether it's law or fact. (And, for that matter, defendants are free to appeal decisions of fact; they just face a higher burden of persuasion.)
Now, why don't you wait until we're discussing something you know something about for your next post, huh?
Re:You can appeal an ACQUITTAL in Norway? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:NAZIs (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Is this justified? (Score:5, Insightful)
No. Bitwise copying is for piracy; DeCSS is really, really, really, REALLY crap for piracy. It's for playback.
No matter how many times "the man" says DeCSS is for piracy, it just isn't true. DeCCS is to copying what roller skates are to theft: it is possible that you could find someone trying it but it's a useless way to go about it.
Plus, in most countries CSS itself is actually an illegal proce-fixing mechanism backed by an equally illegal cartel.
TWW
Re:Is this justified? (Score:3, Interesting)
Assuming that your statement that all of the DivX versions of movies available on DVD were created with DeCSS is true (it's not, but I'll let that pass), you've only "proven" that DeCSS can be and is used for piracy, which is still a far cry from proving that DeCSS is only used for piracy, or that it's intended to be used for piracy or even that it's primarily used for piracy.
As a counterexample, I use a descendent of DeCSS on a regular basis, but I've never pirated DVD movies (I have made infringing copies of VHS tapes, however -- better ban VCRs). So does everyone who watches DVDs using a non-DVDCCA-approved DVD player, such as xine. I also use a descendent of DeCSS to rip my DVDs and convert them to SVCD format so that my kids can watch (and destroy) the cheap copies rather than the relatively expensive originals. Such backup purpose should fall under Fair Use. I could also use DeCSS to extract snippets of a movie to include them in a commentary video, which definitely would be Fair Use.
There are many legitimate uses for DeCSS. As for what the *primary* use is, I couldn't guess. I know a lot of the movies available for download couldn't have been ripped from DVD since they're up for download before the film is even released on DVD (or at times before it's even released in the theatres!)
doesn't help pirates (Score:2)
I bought it, I should be able to play it in Linux. (Score:3, Insightful)
No, it isn't. Once I buy a DVD, the disc is MINE. I should have the right to play it on any player that I can get it to work on. It isn't necessarily the responsibility of the company to facilitate it, but if I should be able to play my DVD on my Linux box if I want to figure out how to do it. DeCSS has been very useful to me, as I can play my DVDs, all of which are legit, on my Laptop, which runs Linux.
I don't see anyone saying that people should be allowed to hack popular windows only games to run on liniux, so why should movies be different?
Except that people DO use WINE to to get their "Windows Only" games to run on Linux. People use it to play EverQuest, Starcraft, and many other games that the programmers didn't intend to run in Linux. Again, there is nothing wrong with it if the people doing it have legitimately purchased the software.
Re:Is this justified? (Score:5, Informative)
That a product, program, or any tool for that matter, can be used to circumvent the law or do ill, does that mean that the tool is evil? Hardly. A tool is neither good nor bad, so long as it performs the task it was designed for in an adequate manner. Those kind of value judgements must be reserved for the person that employs that tool...
Is a gun inherently evil? Sure, there are many that use it for malicious purposes, but what about when the gun is in the lands of a legitimate authority? What about when it is in the hands of a potential rape victim?
Prosecute the Pirates. Prosecute the thieves. Don't buy materials from questionable sources. I'm not one of those people that thinks the "Industry" has no right to make a dollar. Still, the tool is not the problem. It is the people that choose to misuse it.
I don't think it is the company's right to determine how I use their product. If I have paid the same $22.00 for a DVD as my Windows using counterpart, how am I causing harm to Hollywood by viewing the movie on my own Linux running system? Have I hurt their revenue? Did I steal their intellectual property? Does my use of Linux automatically mean that I will decrypt their DVD, and spread it across the Internet free of charge?
What is the difference?
If anything, the movie industry should be going out of their way to put as many DVD players out there in the world as possible. They should have authored their own Linux DVD software, because it is beneficial to them to do so. The more players in existance, the more movies they are likely to sell. This seems evident to anyone with even a cursory understanding of economics.
Short of producing such a software player themselves, they certainly shouldn't mind that someone else has saved them the trouble.
The piracy issue is a strawman arguement. DeCSS doesn't make a DVD any more "pirateable." You needn't break the encryption in order to take a single DVD, and duplicate it. You can produce duplicates without even attempting to decrypt the software, simply by making a bit-for-bit copy.
What DeCSS does allow for is the conversion from one format to another... It allows you to take a DVD, and from it, procude VCDs, etc. That's hardly a threat though. They are lower density, and lower resolution. Nobody would rather have a VCD than the corresponding DVD. In any event, VCD production poses the most minor of threats to the revenue streams of the movie industry.
In any event, this is definately a new reason not to move to Norway. I had no idea that "Double Jeopardy" protection wasn't commonplace in most of the "Free" world.
Re:Is this justified? (Score:3, Interesting)
Like it or not, 'DVD Jon' and his work, DeCSS, do aid pirates.
Like it or not, that doesn't matter. At least in the U.S., I'm not familiar with Norwegian law but regardless, it's bullshit. Cars are used to getaway from crimes, guns (the obvious analogy) are used in crimes, paper and pens are used to plan crimes. Guess we should start going after manufacturers of these products.
Re:Is this justified? (Score:5, Insightful)
So do web sites, FTP, and email. Shall we make it illegal to write web browsers too?
many people do use it to break the encryption scheme so they can rip and distribute movies. Is this necessarily what we want? If movie companies don't get paid for there work they'll stop making movies, blahda blahda
I'd much rather live in a world with fewer movies than in a world where Hollywood is allowed to dictate what programs I can write or use on my own computer.
Additionally, while this is not a popular idea around here, isn't it the companies right to decide that they only want their disks to play on windows systems?
Companies have every right to decide what is done with their property. However, once they sell a disk to me, it becomes my property, and at that point it should be up to me (and only me) how I use it.
I don't see anyone saying that people should be allowed to hack popular windows only games to run on liniux, so why should movies be different?
There is no argument about that because everybody agrees that it should be allowed. Products such as WineX [transgaming.com] and VMWare [vmware.com] allow you to play windows-only games under Linux.
Re:Is this justified? (Score:3, Insightful)
CSS protects the DVD content from being played on an unauthorised machine - which means one without the appropriate license keys. In practise, that means using either an actual DVD player, or PC-software from a CSS-licensed provider. Never mind that the exact same hardware can run Linux or Windows, if you don't have an officially licensed CSS implementation for Linux, it's illegal...
As for hacking PC games to work with Linux, that's a much bigger deal than making it possible to view movies. Trying to restrict movies to real DVD players or to WinXX PCs is exactly like trying to make any other media only playable on proper players or WinXX PCs. I have a bunch of vinyl albums that I'd like to listen to while at work - I can't because I'm not going to drag my hifi to the office every day. One day I'll be bothered enough about it to make MP3s of those albums. Until then, my only option is to re-buy content I've already bought, at stupid prices. What's more, some of those albums are not, and probably never will be available on CD, or even cassette... Note: I'm not planning on trying to download these albums, I just want to be able to continue to enjoy the vinyl records I already have, in places where an actual turntable record player is impractical.
Just try thinking about it in terms of some other industry: a gun maker turning out a rifle for use only on a target range, or a shotgun for shooting anything except ducks; a car maker turning out a Moms-Only SUV, or a highway-only car; furniture for used only by married people; etc... Sounds stupid, doesn't it?
Re:Is this justified? (Score:2)
Maybe not yet, but your point sure makes this story [slashdot.org] about the RIAA going after ISP's all the more interesting.
Re:Double Jeopardy? (Score:2, Insightful)
In the US the double stuff ONLY applies to Capitol offenses!
Not true at all; double jeopardy applies to all criminal charges.
Re:STUPID! (Score:2)
If I were allowed to vote in the USA, I would, if only to be able to claim I voted for "the other guy". As I'm not a citizen, I have no vote, but I'm expected to pay taxes...
No, I'm not bitching, just stating a fact. I may very well apply for citizenship once my period of taxation-without-representation ends in about 4 years. That's assuming our glorious world leaders don't talk themselves into nuking each other any time soon... :)