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Handhelds Hardware Your Rights Online

Cleveland Public Library Readies E-book Downloads 242

Posted by timothy from the trial-bases-and-tribulations dept.
rtphokie writes "C|Net is reporting that the Cleveland Public Library is making ebooks available. Sounds like the 1000 books in the system initially will feature more than just public domain titles including 'the latest from authors such as Michael Crichton, Clive Barker and Joyce Carol Oates.'" The article also mentions that "only a limited number of each eBook will be available, and after a preset number of days, the eBook will lock out the current reader so another patron can check it out." A good time to re-read The Right to Read.
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Cleveland Public Library Readies E-book Downloads More

Cleveland Public Library Readies E-book Downloads

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  • Prediction: (Score:4, Funny)

    by Sean Trembath ( 607338 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @01:13AM (#5030853)
    Mom: Stop messing around on that thing. Read a book for once.

    Son: I am reading a book.

    Mom: Keep lying like that and you're grounded.

    • Re:Prediction: (Score:4, Insightful)

      by irc.goatse.cx troll ( 593289 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @01:21AM (#5030883) Journal
      Offtopic, so I'll drop the +1 Bonus.

      This comment reminds me of that commercial where the kids are playing with the educational toys teaching them to spell, and the dad comes in and says 'put the toys down, go study', kids put it down, then pick it up, etc.
      Commercials like that disturb me, To see a father so out of touch with his childs life. Those things are like $45/ea, did his wife just go out and spend close to $100 on stuff for his kids without him even knowing it? Does he not care about his kids enough to know what they're doing?
      I know I'm taking this too far, but damn that bothers me.

  • *sigh* will they never learn? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Com2Kid ( 142006 ) <com2kidSPAMLESS@gmail.com> on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @01:14AM (#5030856) Homepage Journal
    Ok first off, yah to Cleavland for at least trying this idea.

    But major "why are you pulling this con?" to Overdrive for trying to convince ANYBODY that client side, err, well, heh, anything, is safe at all.

    Listen, it has already been proven that without trusted hardware (which is not going to come along until consumers start trusting the companies) that NO DRM solution is secure. No matter what. Worst case, things have to be brute forced, but since the unencrypted data passed through the clients computer somewheres along the line, heck, there is your weak point right there.

    Now if somebody figured a way to encase the decryption key in some sort of VGA dongle so the actual decrypted data was only ever sent over the VGA wire, but even then, doing it cheap and such, heh. No go.

  • Loss of revenue. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anand_S ( 638598 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @01:15AM (#5030861)
    "...after a preset number of days, the eBook will lock out the current reader so another patron can check it out"

    How are libraries going to cope with the loss of 50 cent overdue fees?

    • Re:Loss of revenue. (Score:5, Funny)

      by kpansky ( 577361 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @01:19AM (#5030875)
      I have never once had a library collect a fine from me. I once was supposed to pay off an $8 fine. As soon as I offered to pay it, the librarian smiled and said, "Thats alright." I guess my dashing looks and suave attitued impressed the 75 year old blue-haired lady. :)

      • Re:Loss of revenue. (Score:2, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        I think it would be much more likely that you looked like such a slob that she assumed you had no money and were down on your luck.

        It's charity, nothing more.

    • Re:Loss of revenue. (Score:2, Informative)

      by great om ( 18682 )
      I.A.L. (I'm a librarian). I'll let you in on a little secret. We don't, for the most part, care about the fines. They're really just intended to help encourage library patrons to return the shared resource they have borrowed. The fines do provide a little revenue, but for the most part, the administration involved with these fines makes it much less than one would think

      P.S. Penn. Public and School libraries (throughb their Powerlibrary online iniative) already have e-books, although the system could use a little work.
    • Overdue fines are not a significant source of revenue. They exist mainly to encourage people to return the books, hopefully in a halfway timely manner. Most libraries have regular "amnesty" periods when you can return books fine-free, no matter how much overdue time it has. They'd rather get the book back than collect the fine (itself trivial compared to the price of a hardcover book).

  • How did this work out ? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Gyan ( 6853 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @01:16AM (#5030864)
    "...and after a preset number of days, the eBook will lock out the current reader so another patron can check it out."

    in conjunction with

    "...including the ability to download books onto PCs and PDAs and create a portable eBook that can be read even when patrons are offline."

    I'm assuming that the portable eBook created will be encoded with a 'lock' date.

    I think it will work on a modest scale. It will be broken and pirated quickly.

    But frankly, there's nothing like holding and reading a real book by the bedside or on the go.

    ePaper, where are you ?
    • You're right that "there's nothing like holding and reading a real book by the bedside or on the go", but you cant grep a dead tree, can you? :)
    • But frankly, there's nothing like holding and reading a real book by the bedside or on the go.

      I love books. I started reading at 2. I worked at an independent bookstore for three years in high school. Then at a library in college. I love books.

      Why would anyone ever want to read an ebook? Paper is so much nicer. ...This is what I always used to say...

      Then I tried reading an ebook on my Clie. At bedtime. I've got to say -- reading a book on a small bright handheld, no need for a reading lamp, being able to put it down and nod off... WOW. Reading in bed has never been so nice!

      Moral of the story: Don't knock it 'till you try it.
    • It will be broken and pirated quickly.


      I'm really not sure why everyone is so worried about eBook copyright infrigement.

      By god! You can digitaize the paper version! There will be electronic coppies everywhere in a matter of days! Stephen King's thousands of shopping bags full of money will disappear, and authors will go hungry! We need DRM for these paper versions!

      Slightly more seriously... a sheet-fed scanner, or a automatic document feeder (ADF) can be bought for around $100. Any shmoe can buy a book, pull the pages from their bindings, stick them in the feeder, and come back when the entire book has been scanned-in. Sure, someone has to buy one copy and essentially sacrifice it, but I don't think that's a problem.

      So why do ebooks get illegially copied? Primarily because of the protection. You tell someone that they can't copy it, and guess what happens...

      Then there is the market of disabled people, or those who use a non-blessed platform (like Linux) who aren't able to read the version they can pay for, so someone buys it and cracks the protection, then distributes it for others who are in that situation. the ironic thing is that the encryption is actually what gives those people a very good reason NOT to pay for the offical version. If you can read the free one, but can't read the $10 one, would you pay them $10. Paying for it would only encourage them to make more with protection that is just as bad, and just as useless to you.

      Phew, that was long.
      ePaper, where are you ?

      All we need is monitors that are NOT backlit. Which is the reason people will read on their black and white 2" Palm-pilot screens, but read little on their computer screen. If screens weren't backlit (think; polarized light) it would be just as nice to read on as good old paper, with all the advantages of being electronic.
    • Yes, it will be broken quickly. The CPL has a huge collegtion of software for patrons to "borrow". I don't think they honestly care too much.

  • /. is the best protection system around. (Score:5, Funny)

    by wackybrit ( 321117 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @01:20AM (#5030880) Homepage Journal
    The article also mentions that "only a limited number of each eBook will be available, and after a preset number of days, the eBook will lock out the current reader so another patron can check it out."

    That's weird. I've noticed many Web pages that Slashdot links to also have this feature. I click on the link and it tells me too many people are reading the site and that I should come back later. So if Slashdot links to every e-book in the library, they won't need to pay for fancy protection systems.

  • I have serious reservations (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Henry V .009 ( 518000 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @01:25AM (#5030893) Journal
    Trying to make the digital world just like the real world doesn't work. Sure it would be great to check out e-books from the library. And it would be great to rent videos on the net. But in order to make it happen you have to take away freedoms.

    You see, the internet is just information passing between computers over the phone lines (or what not). In order to get an ebook to you over the internet, that ebook needs to be copied. You cannot transfer a physical copy of something over the internet. Now, since duplication occurs, this falls under copyright.

    But wait--what if we were to use technology to lock out the copy at one end, and only allow one user at a time to access the ebook? And after a period of time, technology locks out the information on the user's side? That would be just like a library correct?

    No. Because in order to accomplish that, you need to take away a user's control over the information he possesses. This is taking away a fundamental right. In other words, you can make the digital world like the real world, but you can't make it the same. Sure, you open up a new business model or service. But on the other hand, you take away rights.

    And that is exactly what a set-up like this can do. Luckily, in America, rights are protected, not business models.

    But you can erode rights. A set-up like this comes along at first. Laws like the DMCA are passed to strengthen it. Hell, the DMCA is enough already. Suddenly renting digital information is possible.

    And what if one year then, your college decides that it's cheaper to rent ebooks than have you buy real thing? Maybe they don't even publish the dead tree version anymore. Palladium and the DMCA lock out you out from real control of the information. In fact, the ebook manufacturer--given the ease of EULAs with this distribution system, might even decide to make a little more profit. After all who's to stop him? He makes you agree in the EULA not share the information you rent. Suddenly Stallman's vision of the future has come true. Brave new world, what not.
    • They take away your "fundemental right" to share information, too. I don't see /. bitching about that. You can bet that the library in question has new customers sign a document of some kind where they agree to not distribute the precious precious content of the books the download.

      -c
      • Fundamental right to share (copy) information? Never been such a beast. And for good reason. On the other hand, property rights over information bearing material--books, hard drives--are quite well established.
        • Fundamental right to share (copy) information? Never been such a beast. And for good reason.

          What... like freedom of speech?
          • If you want to take the time to read the book and re-cast all the material contained therein into your own words and ideas and then have somebody else record your ideas, then you can distribute the results however the hell you want. Other than that, it does not fall under freedom of speech protection.
    • He makes you agree in the EULA not share the information you rent. Suddenly Stallman's vision of the future has come true.

      I don't think you can call it Stallman's vision for one thing... Inumerable others concieved of, and conveyed this very fear, likely long before Stallman was even born.


      This all leads to one problem, with one solution... We need Fair Use rights to be legally guaranteed. Sure, allow companies to include all the copy protection they like, but make sure that you have the ability to make a backup copy, and can exerpt that information as you choose.

      I know Sony gets a lot of slack for including copy protection in their products (eg. SACD), but, so far, I have not seen one copy protection scheme from them that will stop fair-use. Their MiniDisc system, that's been around for years now, allowed you to make a copy from an original disc, but did not allow (digital) copying from the copy.

      My point is that the technology to give users their fair-use rights, while not allowing unlimited use, has been around for some time, and there is no excuse for restricting it.

      While I'm no fan of copy protection at all, even I could get behind a scheme as long as it allowed for fair use, and wasn't limited to a handful of platforms.

      • The SCMS protection on Minidiscs have stopped bands and other content creators from legitimately making digital copies of their own work. It has been one of the strikes against the format at the outset. Non-professional (read affordable) Digital Audio Tape has the same problem. This is the real reason for DRM. "Piracy" is a red herring. Making it almost impossible for non-cartel members to create and distribute content is their true agenda.

        • The SCMS protection on Minidiscs have stopped bands and other content creators from legitimately making digital copies of their own work.

          Because it's not their work. Assuming that the band in question is a cover band, recording a performance of a musical work without the permission of the songwriter is an infringement of copyright. In general, the license to record somebody else's work isn't bundled with the standard ASCAP/BMI cover band license.

          At this point, you're thinking, "What if members of the band wrote all the songs?" Prove it. Prove that your band didn't pull a George Harrison [columbia.edu] and unconsciously plagiarize an existing song. Prove it in court against a music publisher whose legal budget is 1000 times bigger than yours. Under such conditions, I'm not sure how a songwriter could prove that he didn't copy something else.

          • Why should the owner of a piece of equipment have to prove to the equipment that he has the right to use it? You've only further proved my point. How will anybody other than the entertainment cartels be able to use A/V production equipment if they get all of the draconian things that they want?

    • Luckily, in America, rights are protected, not business models.

      Meesa thinks yousa hasa got it backwards.

  • eBooks isn't bad by nature (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Wrexs0ul ( 515885 ) <mmeier AT racknine DOT com> on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @01:26AM (#5030898) Homepage
    There seems to be a lot of people missing the argument when it comes to eBooks. Publishers and authors have a right to profit from there work regardless of what it is. In principle this would allow you to handle your digital book just like a paperback: you could read it for a time, share your license with a friend so they could too, and then return the book automatically when your rental time is up. No big deal and automation would most certainly save you from a $200 late charge!

    Unfortunately in practice a digital system provides far too much power to the provider. Not only are you limited to how long you have a product but how you can use it. It's digital communism where on paper everyone gets exactly what they need but in practice leaves the power so readily exploitable by a select few.

    Question is can we prevent a future like that presented in the linked story? With the growing power base among a select group of individuals/organizations and leaders put in power from the old boys club it'll be an interesting 21st century.

    -Matt


    • You said:

      Publishers and authors have a right to profit from there work regardless of what it is.

      That right is given by the people through their representatives in Congress in accordance with the Constitution.

      The reason the people gave that right is to encourage authors to write. By giving a limited time monopoly on their expression, we are giving them an oportunity to make money by giving us the results of their talents.

      Now, personally, I believe that current law gives way too long a monopoly. Walt Disney was encouraged to create Mickey Mouse when the monopoly was much shorter. Mark Twain was also encouraged and well compensated, despite a shorter copyright.

      Do we think that by extending the copyright to 70 years, we are getting more creative effort and better literature than we did back then? What are we getting for those extra years?

      I someone can't make a profit from their efforts in, say, 10 years, maybe the benefit to the people from those efforts has already been expressed by the marketplace.

    • Re:eBooks isn't bad by nature (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Com2Kid ( 142006 ) <com2kidSPAMLESS@gmail.com> on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @01:57AM (#5030975) Homepage Journal
      • There seems to be a lot of people missing the argument when it comes to eBooks. Publishers and authors have a
      • right to profit from there work regardless of what it is.


      Uh, no.

      They have the right to TRY AND PROFIT from their work.

      NOBODY has the RIGHT to PROFITS.

      Companies just THINK they do.

      PURSUIT of happiness folks, PURSUIT, not all packaged up and left on your front doorstep for you by Uncle Sam.

      Now the companies do the have RIGHT to sue my ass in court for theft if I steal it though. :)
    • you could read it for a time, share your license with a friend so they could too, and then return the book automatically when your rental time is up

      How does the author benefit from me returning the book? Does it mitigate his cost in some way?

      I've never brrowed the same book from a library twice. Now that I think about it, I don't think I've checked out anything from the library in over five years. Big hard cover reference books hold their value (content-wise) for many years, and are generally worth the investment. Paper back novels are so cheap that it's not worth a trip to library and back, when you can just grab one in the checkout aisle.

      I just don't see the value in time-locked eBooks... for me or the publisher. Just give me the material with no restrictions, at a good price, and I'll buy *lots*.
  • To me, the whole reason I *hate* eBooks is that it's entirely counter to the whole reading expirience. I like to be able to sit down and flip open a good smelling book and *feel* the whole thing as I read it.

    I also like to not have to worry about batteries, screen glare, squinting at the small screen, etc etc

    Plus, electronics are still too fragile. Can you drop your eBook reader 10ft on to concrete without worrying? Not that we do it intentionally, but accidents happen. Paper books are some of the most durable and long lasting storage methods around.

    I mean, what's the longest lasting digital medium? CDs? 50 years?!?! Paper lasts thousands of years!

    So I'll stick with my grand 'ol paper books.

    Let me know when eBooks are practical (if I'm not dead by then...).

    (Yes, I had a Palm V. I tried the eBook thing and it was bad. The screen *alone* was hell to read. Who want's to read a book on a flickery screen anyways? Whip out a 5 pound laptop to read a book the size of that laptop's battery? Squint at a bad screen for 20 hours?)

    • Temporary (Score:3, Insightful)

      by MacAndrew ( 463832 )
      Law books, those rows of reporters the TV lawyers always have in the background, are still a favorite for many, especially the older lawyers. But the convenience and power of electronic versions -- corrections and hyperlinks and potability and so on -- are winning out, even those the reading experience is inferior. It's pretty hard to juggle 20 of those big books.

      The discomfort of the reading is getting better fast. Look at the difference in laptops in the last few years. Now there is finally talk of tablet computers that I hope will be more booklike, particularly if you can touch the screen to move things around. These will get sharper and faster and cheaper and battery life will disappear as an issue and so on.

      Give it maybe 15 years to get really big, with incremental increases in the interim. Better screens, the biggest factor, are in the works. These active matrix screens haev only been affordable for a few years, and now they're standard. How about a screen with double or triple the resolution? Sure. Also, imagine having any book from any library available in seconds. Personally I'm getting tired of putting in for holds on new books at the local library, then waiting a month or, worse, spending $25 for it.

      • Re:Temporary (Score:5, Insightful)

        by BWJones ( 18351 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @02:15AM (#5031028) Homepage Journal
        Law books, those rows of reporters the TV lawyers always have in the background, are still a favorite for many, especially the older lawyers. But the convenience and power of electronic versions -- corrections and hyperlinks and potability and so on -- are winning out, even those the reading experience is inferior. It's pretty hard to juggle 20 of those big books.

        We have the same problem in medicine. It used to be that new residents would walk around the halls with *all* their coat pockets bulging with pocket manuals and notes etc... making it a major pain in the ass when you had to move quickly or needed to find something quick in one of those damn pockets.....

        However, some of the more recent M.D. grads are finding out about the convenience of a portable PDR, Harrisons Principles of Internal Medicine, clinical reference guides etc... and the only thing you have to worry about now is caring for the Palm pilot in thier lab coat and keeping it charged.

        In fact, speaking of medical handhelds, the Apple Newton was almost perfect for medical use. It had a large hi-res screen, could accept lots of memory, was fast, very flexible, and was extremely rugged (having dropped mine more than once). I was truly sad when Apple killed the Newton division as I am one of those holdouts that really wishes Apple would bring back the Newton in some flavor with some flavor of OS X and the Quartz rendering for text.

        • Yes, a pulmonologist I saw had a palm or equiv. with lists of all the drugs, dosages, adn which would flag interactions on the spot. He said he'd like to use a Mac but "there's no software for it." Sigh.

          Imagine a wireless connection on that handheld for checking medical records and entering orders. No more of the *&^@$*! physician handwriting. I'm sure you've heard of the people who died [cnn.com] over handwriting (although arguably some were pharmacist error -- and they've had computers looking over their shoulders for a while).

          With hardware like iPod (practically a computer in its own right) and writing recognition software like Inkwell out I would be very surprised not to see an Apple handheld in the near future. The way Newton was handled was bizarre, but then it's not easy being a trailblazer, and those were the "dark days" for Apple. It is rumored that Jobs' ego is simply antagonistic to anything he didn't invent. an interesting article [wired.com] They should leave the low end of the market to Palm etc., I doubt there's much money to be made there; same strategy as the iPos v. al those other MP3 players.

          Hey, I wish they'd stayed in the web browser game, too. :)
          • Imagine a wireless connection on that handheld for checking medical records and entering orders.

            Oh, I would go further than that. The current state of medical management software for patient management, medical records etc... is abysmal and the costs are mind bogling. I have often thought that a Mac based medical managment package could be put together that would scale from a single doctors office (rare these days) to large hospitals. Handheld devices could be both 802.11 aware for wide area access and Bluetooth aware for synching with patient info when medical staff walk into a patients room. That way, access to all information including radiological would be available at all times even at the patients bedside.

    • Let me know when eBooks are practical (if I'm not dead by then...).(Yes, I had a Palm V. I tried the eBook thing and it was bad. The screen *alone* was hell to read. Who want's to read a book on a flickery screen anyways?

      So, a major problem has been the screens and text rendering technology. Yeah, I too tried reading books on my Palm at one time (even on my old Newton which had a much better screen than the Palms), but the text was too small and you were still dealing with pixelated letters and words. With the systemwide support for anti-aliasing that OS X has however, reading books with the Quartz rendering setup and an LCD would not be that bad. (See OS X is easy on the eyes [applelust.com] for more detail).

      At any rate, even with the best OS for eBooks (OS X) we are still stuck reading on laptops unless Apple pulls something out of their hat soon (tomorrow) and released a tablet or similar device for eBooks and markup that would be Acrobat capable. ;-)

    • And have been pretty happy with it. It uses the Zinio Reader [zinio.com] and is pretty functional. Links are clickable, which is really nice in a magazine of this ilk. It's bookmarkable, searchable and you can write notes on it. The only complaint I've got is that it's too faithful to the paper version. It includes all those annoying subscription and other business reply cards and they have to be turned like any other page.
  • Everyone here pretty much agrees on the same thing when it comes to eBooks. The DRM in them isn't worth a squirt of piss. Still, even if you had some magic DRM algorithm that was 100% impossible to break (which we all know eBooks do NOT have), the viewer still has to be able to read the damn thing, so it has to be displayed in an unencoded form. Attach homebrewed screenshot app here, insert optical character recognition there, and viola! Instant DRM-free eBook! Time for the usual distribution channels! IRC, 0day ftp sites, eDonkey, FastTrack, Gnutella. Thank you for your contribution to society Hamilton Press! You know we really, uh..appreciate it. lmao!

    I suspect that this will last for about 6 months. Then the publishers will start whining 'foul'.

    Thinking about this has stirred up an interesting idea though. The only way to make money from eBooks is to devise a method to make people want to pay for information that they could otherwise get for free. So what about providing useful services for a flat monthly fee?

    How about the ability to search for text strings throughout an entire library of books. That could certainly make research a little easier. You want to know all about Albert Einstein? SURE! Here is every document he authored, every biography, every newpaper that mentioned him, and every other book or magazine that's referred to him in existance. If done correctly, you could even get search results back in under 2.4 seconds like Google.

    Now I'm not saying that full text indexes are the killer app that will make people pay for electronic access to published works, but its a start....

  • The first? (Score:4, Informative)

    by Cranky_92109 ( 414726 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @01:37AM (#5030928)
    I can't speak to who is the first, but I have checked out an eBook online 8 months ago through my local library: San Diego Public Library [sannet.gov].
    SDPL uses this company: NetLibrary [netlibrary.com].
    It looks like NetLibrary provides this service for other libraries, but I'm too lazy to look for details.

  • A Good Idea (In Theory) (Score:3, Interesting)

    by E-Rock-23 ( 470500 ) <lostprophytNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @01:41AM (#5030939) Homepage Journal
    Now, I like the idea of a library putting out it's books on the internet, and I agree with the lock out date. If you go and check out a physical book, they stamp a return date on the back in the card pocket. Same general idea.

    But, there are a few flaws. One, how long will the readable period be? Most libraries I've dealt with have a two week check out period. That's more than enough time to read a decent sized novel (such as one by Crichton, my favorite author, BTW). Will the lockout date correspond to their checkout period? Or will it be shortened in ebook form to prevent piracy?

    And while I'm on the subject of piracy, there's a way that all ebooks can fail in their attempts to curb it. Let's say a guy with alot of free time, hard drive space and patience decides to download an ebook. He can't crack the encryption, can't copy the text directly. But what about screenshots? What's to stop him from hitting Alt+PrScr for each page and pasting them into a run of the mill image? He could then create a PDF, HTML or other collection of files and redistribute the book freely.

    Is there a charge for these downloads? Then you get into the issue of fair use of something you've purchased. Libraries usually don't charge for check outs (at least not in my experience), and since this ebook model seems to work much the same way, I don't see the need to charge. The only charges I know of for libraries is overdue fees, which are more than reasonable.

    And, is there a limit on how many copies can be digitally checked out at one time? If there is, that puts a waiting list into play. If there is a copy limit, then the lock out date makes sense. But let's say a person downloads an ebook and doesn't get the chance to finish it, and there are limited copies. Would they have to wait to download it again? Or could there be a renewal system to extend the lockout a few days to give the reader a chance to finish?

    I've never dealt with ebooks, and probably never will (unless they outlaw physical copies). I'm an old school book nut and prefer to have a physical copy when I do my reading (which means I like to pay for my reading enjoyment, thus doing so legally). So, I really don't know if ebook reader programs prevent screenshots or not, or whether there will be charges and such. It seems like a decent idea, but the whole ebook idea is going to be flawed. Just like music (if I can hear it, I can rip/copy it), text will suffer from a similar ailment (if I can see it, I can copy it).
    • One, how long will the readable period be?
      If anything it should be longer. Part of the reason for returns is to get one of a limited number of N physical books back into the system so others can read it. No need here, since the 'lending' of the digital book doesnt limit lending it to someone else, you don't have that restriction.

      And while I'm on the subject of piracy, there's a way that all ebooks can fail in their attempts to curb it.
      Anyone hear of a Xerox machine? OCR? Piracy existed well before the invention of Ebooks, and will continue.
      • ...the 'lending' of the digital book doesnt limit lending it to someone else, you don't have that restriction.

        While that's true in a physical sense, it's not true in a legal sense. The library will likely purchase (or maybe be given, depending on the arrangement) a license to distribute X number of copies at once, not an unlimited number, as the article mentions:

        "What's more, only a limited number of each eBook will be available, and after a preset number of days, the eBook will lock out the current reader so another patron can check it out."

        DennyK
  • Skipping the various examples of Bain [baen.com], inform it [informit.com] , and etc, Legit e-books have been available for free, or nearly so for quite some time. My favorite being the King County [kcls.org], Wa library system.Mostly tech books, but then it's mostly geeks who will look for and use them at this point.

  • Lets be fair here (Score:3, Interesting)

    by starX ( 306011 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @02:01AM (#5030988) Homepage
    This is hardly the situation presented in "Right to Read." RMS's tale is about people who actually OWN the books not having the right to lend them to other people. This is a public collection being made available on the internet (and not just a single computer, as in "Right to Read").

    I actually think this is a good idea, and if this model persists, then I think we'll all be in good shape. Think about it, in real life, when you borrow a book from your local library, you have to bring it back. This is for the simple reason that other people can read it too. If you don't bring it back, you have to buy a copy for the library to replace it. Of course we don't have the same problem here, but without getting into the debate about who gets more money, the authors or the publishers, books are a commodity that need to be paid for to support the authors who write them.

    yes, there will be casesof authors releasing their works into public domain, and these individuals should be hailed for their contributions. And works that already ARE in the public domain should be made available online for free, but consider the ramifications of a newly published book by an autho suddenly made available for download without any restrictions. Anyway you slice it, the author is not going to make as much money as from a sale of the book. I grant you, there will always be people (like myself) who prefer the paper version for casual reading, but I do believe that the creator of a piece of art, literature, music, etc., is entitled to decide whether they should be compensated for possessing their work.

    Yes the publishing companies are a bit tyranical in their price fixing, copy protection schemes etc., but just as we look forward to the day when people can download a song off of the internet, paying a fair price for doing so, and compensate the artist directly, I think we should also look forward to the day when the same can be done with books. But to support "full time" artists, there must be a system of compensation.

    Simply allowing anyone anywhere to get and keep the book is just not a valid option. Yes, I know, these will be posted all over the net by their first check out. The debate of 2003 will become online book sharing, and the coalition of publishers will get together to crush programs like this. But really, it is a GOOD idea. You have the ability to keep the bhook on your computer for weeks without having to pay for it. If you don't finish reading it, you can just check it out again.

    Honestly, I think we should be so lucky to have most major libraries doing this by the end of the decade. This, ladies and gentlemen, expands your rights online; make no mistake about that.
    • Agreed with you all the way. As I read the story and got to the last link, I found myself wishing fervently that I could moderate part of the story as -1, troll.

      It's what I call the "Slashdot mentality"--any time someone puts any kind of a limit on their product, a limit that they have every right to impose, a limit that's perfectly understandable given the situation, a limit that doesn't even take away any abilities people already had...it's all nasty and evil and next thing you know, the secret police will be knocking on your door in the dead of night. Bleah. Slashdot editors, kindly present your stories in a neutral fashion, and save the editorializing for comments.
  • A good time to re-read The Right to Read.

    Holy shit! What the fuck is that??

    Holy cybernetic guacamole! Does anyone need anymore evidence that RMS went off the deep end years ago?

    Go the fuck ahead and mod me down, but jeez, somebody has to say these things.

    • Re:Oh for the love of... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by slux ( 632202 )
      Try listening to Lawrence Lessig's talk titled free_culture [randomfoo.net] and it may suddenly not seem all that far-fetched.

      All you people going on and on about how Stallman is an unrealistic madman should read Free as in Freedom: Richard Stallmans Crusade for Free Software [oreilly.com] by Sam Williams which happens to be available under the GNU FDL and you might understand him a little bit better. The book was initially supposed to be an ebook with all the regular protections in place (as described by Lessig's presentation). I found the epilogue particularly touching.

      I can't honestly see any advantage in ebooks for libraries in their crippled form. Well, maybe storage space but that is about it. You get more restrictions on your access to the information, less durable way to store it and somewhat clumsy readers but no advantages over traditional books. You could offer so much more with this without DRM.

  • eBook hype again? Is it January already? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by mmoncur ( 229199 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @02:22AM (#5031041) Homepage
    Looks like a decent system and definitely a boon for libraries. I won't use it, but then, I don't use libraries at all. I like to own stuff.

    Really, it's the perfect use for ebooks. Nobody wants to pay for them, because they're inferior to paper books* in so many ways. But the libraries don't want to make money, they just want to let people read things for free. This system makes that possible at a lower price for the libraries, and publishers can feel good about themselves by giving the e-version away to libraries if they want to.

    It won't take off, though, until the libraries come up with a cheap, incredibly durable ebook reader that they can lend out with the books. This will serve as a stopgap until the time when (and if) most households have a reader of some sort.

    (Remember when video rental places rented VCRs?)
    • The moderation system must be retarded...mmoncur hit it spot on, and should be packing a (score:5) for this insightful post.

      The only experience I've had with ebooks was vile, I only had tens-of-thousands of PepsiStuff points (Air, Diet-soda...both essential for life these days) and decided to try an ebook. I don't remember what the ebook was, but I do remember it taking three websites and twenty minutes before I essentially had an Adobe chastity belt (reading harness) suitable for reading an ebook on that machine, and only that machine. The whole process was just wrong...ebooks are premmature, and like the parent message in this thread points out, this isn't good or common tech. I personally wish they wouldn't waste our time with it. Haven't we emasulated ourselves enough already? There's probably enough dead-tree books out right now to build houses out of and fuel our cooking fires (and the occasional bacchanal) for some time to come. Let's worry about digital reader enslavement when someone out of Bill Joy's closet of horrors decides to play a joke on the planet and creates a prolific self-replicating nanobot that just loves paper. Then and only then will ebooks really work.

  • Duh (Score:5, Interesting)

    by skinfitz ( 564041 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @02:28AM (#5031056) Journal
    "only a limited number of each eBook will be available, and after a preset number of days, the eBook will lock out the current reader so another patron can check it out."

    That must be one of the most idiotic things I have ever hear in my life. The whole point of a library is to provide books for people to read - not restrict access to them. They have multiple (physical) copies (which cost money) so that more than one person can read a book at the same time. The only reason that a physical copy is not purchased for every person who uses the library is due to cost - it would obviously not be feasible for the library. Now an electronic alternative is available that could service every reader simultaneously and what do they do? Cripple it.

    Yet another classic example of a perfect use of technology being crippled in the name of greed.

    I suppose I better start working on my auto-book-renew script.

    • Re:Duh (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Robotech_Master ( 14247 )
      The point of a library is to provide books for people to read. It's not to provide books, even electronic ones, that people can keep forever for free. If you want to keep it longer than a couple of weeks, you can go out and buy your own damn copy.

      Libraries do have to pay for each copy of a book they buy...and that includes each virtual copy. That's part of how publishers make money. Besides, it's not like simultaneous-user-limit licensing is new; they've been doing that with computer software for years.

      • Re:Duh (Score:3, Interesting)

        by skinfitz ( 564041 )
        The point of a library is to provide books for people to read. It's not to provide books, even electronic ones, that people can keep forever for free. If you want to keep it longer than a couple of weeks, you can go out and buy your own damn copy.

        I agree totally, which is why the expiration problem is not an issue. Restricting access to the book just because someone else happens to have it "booked out" is downright stupid when there are no costs involved.

        Alternatively simply charge people a small fee to check it out but restricting access to the book when it is totally feasible to allow access is pointless.

    • Re:Duh (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Compuser ( 14899 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @02:57AM (#5031105)
      If even one library freely gives away a book
      in electronic form then anyone interested will
      be able to download a read it. Sounds good?
      Maybe, except that now all ineterested readers
      can get the book for free and the author goes
      hungry.
      To date no good solution exists to entice
      authors into creating and preserve freedom at the
      same time. Street performer protocol and similar
      things do work in some cases but only in
      "niche" cases. For instance many authors have only
      written one good work in their lives (e.g. Steinbeck).
      They would starve with SPP. Many singers have had
      one or two hits (e.g. Billy Ray Cyrus (sp?)). Those
      guys would starve too. Worse, people would not go
      to the trouble of creating stuff if they knew in
      advance that they would have to sustain their
      production over long stretches of time.
      • If even one library freely gives away a book in electronic form then anyone interested will be able to download a read it. Sounds good? Maybe, except that now all ineterested readers can get the book for free and the author goes hungry.

        Fair comment, which is why the expiration will be important, however what is the point of making people wait for something that doesn't exist to be returned?

        Oh sorry you cant download this ebook because someone else has not returned it? Stupid.
      • Maybe, except that now all ineterested readers
        can get the book for free and the author goes
        hungry.

        Kind of like when too many people on slashdot read my posts I go hungry?

        It continues to amaze me that people want to rewrite the laws of supply and demand in order to save the careers of people with poor business plans. Why didn't anyone try to save the Pony Express or 80's Hair Bands this way?

      • To date no good solution exists to entice authors into creating and preserve freedom at the same time. Street performer protocol and similar things do work in some cases but only in "niche" cases. For instance many authors have only written one good work in their lives (e.g. Steinbeck). They would starve with SPP. Many singers have had one or two hits (e.g. Billy Ray Cyrus (sp?)). Those guys would starve too.

        Nonsense. They would work day jobs like the rest of us, and practice their craft as a hobby. The best authors are those who do it for love of writing, not for cash. The downside would be that they would spend less time working on their writing ... but arguably that would be a good thing in some instances as well (consider the dreck produced by the paid writers in the last two Star Wars episodes and the last Star Trek movie, and contrast that with some of the excellent, and vastly superior, fan fiction that has been circulated for free, at no cost, with no profit incentive whatsoever.

        Worse, people would not go to the trouble of creating stuff if they knew in advance that they would have to sustain their production over long stretches of time.

        You mean, be productive over long stretches of time like every other working human being on the planet? Why is it content creators, and their purveyors (the publishers, who are generally the ones receiving the vast bulk of the profits) feel they are entitled to rest on their laurels forever, and never work another day in their life, or at least only as much as they deign to choose, for creating one work, while the rest of us accept that we will work, and work hard, until retirement?

        This entitlement mentality must end, and the notion that we should destroy the internet, hobble libraries, shred the constitution, and turn every digital device in our homes and on our persons into a governance device that monitors and reports our usage of digital data is not only offensive and appalling, it is simply, flat out asinine.

        The myth that people will only create valuable and worthwhile art is not only provably wrong [expressivefreedom.org], it has already been proven wrong countless times, not only by myself, but by many, many others. Peruse USENET or any number of Free Media and Free Literature sites ... much of the best work is available online, at no cost, with no profit motive. Whether it fits your particular taste or not, the allegation that "people would not go to the grouble of creating stuff" if it were free (the assumption implicit in your statement) is simply false.

        Content creators will have to give up the notion, and assumption, that they are entitled to be paid for creating content if we are to have anything other than a draconian, Orwellian society in the digital age, in which a police and surveillance state is instituted in order to enforce digital copyrights (and even that will likely prove insufficient, though I'm sure the effort will further overpopulate our prisons and destroy thousands, perhaps millions of lives in a misguided effort that will make the War on Drugs, and the former Communist East, look like a liberal , democratic picnic in comparison).

        Copyright initially reduced the number of books printed to 1/3 of their former numbers ... this is not the consiqence of a regime designed to foster creativity and productivity, it is the result of a regime designed to facilitate censorship and foster a profit motive above love of the art, and we as a culture have paid a heavy price in seeing our culture diminished and privatized to a point where singing "Happy Birthday" to your child is a technical violation of the law, punishable by fine and, if you send such a greeting to your college bound child over email, by 5 years imprisonment.

    • Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, the Library ISN'T allowed to make lots of copies of books for free ? Otherwise they could copy all of those paper books too.

      Sheesh

  • is it such a good thing? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by deus_X_machina ( 413485 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @02:40AM (#5031076)
    If all books go into ebook format, won't it make it that much easier to just "Edit" "Find" phrases and paragraphs in a book, rather than actually reading the entire book? Believe me, the Internet Classics Archive [mit.edu] has been a godsend this semester for me, however, I confess that I also didn't read much the material I should have, rather just searched for the phrases I needed to write my thesis. Being a philosophy major, its come to a point where I barely buy books because they're almost useless in book format (just like music not in .mp3 format for me is also useless).

    I'm sure to people who do indepth research it'll be a godsend, where people actually read the material but need to find key topics quickly, however, I think it's going to help provoke a world of undereducated undergrads.

  • Slightly off topic but somewhat still (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jpt.d ( 444929 ) <`moc.sregor' `ta' `llafba'> on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @02:41AM (#5031079)
    I bought my grandmother some books for Christmas. All of them are old enough to be out of copyright. One of them didn't have any copyright notice in it at all. Another had this edition copyrighted, and the third had a plain copyright. The third being all of shakespear's works. How can any company put a copyright on public domain material like this? These works were over a hundred years old (books were new).

  • Which system? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by GrouchoMarx ( 153170 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @02:49AM (#5031094) Homepage
    Does anyone know what software they're using to enforce this? It could be Palm's [infosync.no], but it could be another as well. Either way, I'm certain it will lock out GNU/Linux users. And, of course, trying to find a way to read such books on Linux will be a felony. (Hey, Dmitry, up for another challenge? :-)

    I read ebooks. I buy ebooks. I pay for them. I only buy unencrypted, public format ebooks. Anyone else can bite me.

    • I don't read ebooks. At first I wouldn't because they were too expensive. Later I wouldn't because of the license.

      ebooks are a bad idea, that has been made worse by licenses. May all companies involved in this atrocity go bankrupt quickly.

      ebooks, as offered, have a decreased value over regular books at an increased price. Anyone who buys one without actually needing it is being silly.

  • w00t! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Tuxinatorium ( 463682 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @03:17AM (#5031140) Homepage
    If what the library is doing holds up in court, it would set a good legal precedent for the legality of some kinds of file sharing...

  • ARGH!! Quit One-Side-Viewing EVERYTHING (Score:3, Interesting)

    by SuperDuG ( 134989 ) <[be] [at] [eclec.tk]> on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @03:26AM (#5031162) Homepage Journal
    Want to get Free Music, Free Videos, Free Internet Access, and Free Copies of Nearly Everybook ever published?

    Sound all to good to be true? Just can't be right? Well fret no longer boys and girls and walk on down to your LOCAL LIBRARY.

    It's very common to be able to read a book/magazine/newspaper or listen to a COPYRIGHTED music CD, or watch a COPYRIGHTED DVD, or surf the internet on a rather large pipe all for the low cost of NOTHING at your local library.

    The previous arguments of "This will never work people will just find a way to circumvent the security" make just as much sense as checking out a book at the library will never work because no one will bring it back. You want to make an illegal copy of a book, then walk to your local library and use their copy machine and whamo you've got a copy of the book, AND you've violated a copyright law, when all you really had to do was check it out and then renew it or check it out again at a later time.

    It boggles my mind how many people who have commented seem to have no idea how the library system works. Here let me put it in "Spent Too Much Time In The Dark In Front Of The Computer" terminology. Libraries are publically accessible databases of all the information in the entire world, it's like a leech ftp server where anyone can get one and reep the benifits of it. You never have to pay for anything so long as you follow the rules.

    The difference between p2p and the library is a lack of hardcore porn.

    • I agree that libraries rock. However, one minor quibble: they are not free. Nothing is free. Public libraries are paid for with a combination of tax dollars (which most of us that participate in the economy pay), fees and donations. I'd guess that, in most cases, it's tax dollars that pay most of the bills.

      Always remember, if you think you're getting something for free, you just haven't thought about it long enough. There's a cost for all things. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's a good thing. Just pointing it out.

    • Don't know if libraries work the same in the US or whereever .tk is, here in the UK (all price coversion approximate)...

      It's very common to be able to read a book/magazine/newspaper or listen to a COPYRIGHTED music CD, or watch a COPYRIGHTED DVD, or surf the internet on a rather large pipe all for the low cost of NOTHING at your local library.

      Books are free to borrow and you can read any of the magazines/newspapers in the library (so long as you cna pry it from the hands of the OAP who's come in to keep warm and catch a nap but is hanging onto the latest issue of "IEEE News" so it looks likel they're there for a valid reason. Whilst some libraries do have study carrels with CD players they're pretty much impossible to book unless you're a music student on an acredited course and none that I've seen have DVD players. Borrowing a CD generally costs about $1.60-$2 (usually 2 weeks) and borrowing a DVD or video anything up to $5 (usually 1 week). Internet varies from free to $2/hr and you have to fight the 12 year olds downloading porn and $LATEST_PLAYGROUND_CRAZE graphics to use it. Oh, and when you do get on you're sharing a 10Mb pipe with about 500 other people scattered around the various branchs plus library staff (who, due to QoS and similar settings, get a much bigger share of the pipe than the public do)

      You want to make an illegal copy of a book, then walk to your local library and use their copy machine and whamo you've got a copy of the book, AND you've violated a copyright law,

      All the libraries I've seen charge $0.15 per A4 page (single sided) and have someone watching like a hawk (similar attack pattern to) to make sure no-one exceeds copyright/fair-use bounds in their copying.

      The difference between p2p and the library is a lack of hardcore porn.

      Depends on how well you know the librarians. If you know them well enough they'll let you into the restricted "Serious Scholars Only" sections.

      Also here in the UK a library will typically only get a book, CD or DVD 6 months to a year after it's initial publish date and there'll be very few copies. Usually to get a popular book in it's first year in the library you'll have to make a reservation (costs about $1-$2 per item) and have no chance of renewing it once the loan period is up (have to pay another $1 and wait till your turn comes around again). Bear in mind that we have already paid for all these items through local taxes, the reservation fee probably doesn't even cover the cost of collecting it most of the time.

      Stephen

      • How libraries work in the US goes back and forth between state, because it is the state that funds em. Ohio has been consistently ranked as having the best libraries in the nation (and on the smaller level, individual Ohio cities win lots of contests. No surprise to see Cleveland doing something innovative.) This is because a good chunk of their funds come from the state, and then they can add additional property tax levies, if they desire. (You would think that would be common, but apparently we're the only state that does it.)

        So my local library (Columbus public [lib.oh.us]) has everything for free. I can rent 5 DVD's at a time for five days for free, same thing for videos, 10 CD's/audio cassettes for thirty days for free, et cetera. And I guess it's a cool thing to take advantage of (wanna rent more than 5 DVD's at a time? Just bring in two library cards.)

        They get new books, cd's and DVD's very quickly, and that's cool too. When it comes to books, if the book is popular enough, they'll order several dozen of em.

        One thing that is neat is that, generally speaking, it's people in the urban areas who take advantage of the library more than those in the suburban areas. That's cool.

        However, I have to wonder if it is appropriate to have a state funded Blockbuster...because that's essentially what it is...my income and property taxes going to create a "free" Blockbuster.

  • Does this mean that we'll start seeing laptops with ebooks on them left on trains and busses? Hmmmmmm.....

  • My book (Score:2, Funny)

    by Flarelocke ( 321028 )
    I wonder if they'll make my book: How to Circumvent Cleveland Libraries' Time Restriction Mechanism available, too. :)

  • Here we go.. total control (Score:4, Interesting)

    by nurb432 ( 527695 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @08:18AM (#5031771) Homepage Journal
    And you thought I was kidding about control of all information?

    With this little trick, once people adjust to the idea will give people in power complete control of information.

    Sure it will be cracked, but that wont help the common man that isn't capable of doing such a thing. Their entire view of the world, and history will be controlled.

    It will take time, but this is the next logical step in the progression.

    20 years ago if I told you people would be paying to listen to radio, or that you wouldn't be able to copy your music from your house to use in the car, possibly tossed in jail if you try..you would have laughed. Today the practice is pretty much accepted.

  • What is so bad about this? This is only an electronic form of checking out a book and then returning it after a set period of time. Are you all going to complain next about having to take back that real book you borrowed?

    I just can't believe that I am seeing so much whinign about what is a valid use for an e-book. Its not like you are buying the thing and then being locked out after a few days, you are BORROWING it. So what is the big deal?

  • Old school librarians just dont get this (Score:3, Insightful)

    by rtphokie ( 518490 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @10:34AM (#5032650)

    Not that long ago, I worked for a company that builds library automation software. I built a prototype version of our web based catalog searching application that integrated the contents of Project Gutenberg into the system. It gave the user the ability to view books available in Gutenberg online. Included pagination, bookmarking, and searching.

    Showed it to the cheif architect on the project and got rave reviews, showed the marketing department, they loved it. Showed the CEO and he proceeded to chew my ass out for wasting my time and his. I showed it (secretly) to a few customers and half loved it, half hated it. But nobody was willing to try it. That's just dumb.

    The moral of the story? While many prefer the feel of a book in hand even the smell, some are willing to try other things.

  • My experience with this library from a distance, going back to the 1970s, is that they have a most unusual assortment of books, often quite eclectic, and don't necessarily go down the beaten path. In Montana, I had access to an interlibrary loan program of which Cleveland was the eastern terminus, and it was amazing how many rare and oddball SF/F requests they filled for me. (And they're one of only 3 public libraries in the entire U.S. that carry the AKC Stud Books, definitely a specialty/niche item.)

    My guess is that as Cleveland goes, other libraries will follow.

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