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Japanese Cry Foul on New ID System 50

Posted by timothy from the we-are-not-the-droids-you're-looking-for dept.
Gudlyf writes: "As an update to the previous story on Japan's governmental ID system, the AP is reporting that many Japanese have organized into protest groups that have popped up and are planning a rally at which demonstrators will show their outrage by ripping up the papers being sent out by the government to assign every citizen an 11-digit number."
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Japanese Cry Foul on New ID System More

Japanese Cry Foul on New ID System

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  • 00000000001 (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    post
  • If we in the U.S.A. would do the same right now. Given most people's willing blindness to what's going on with the goverment, I doubt it.

    • Re:I wonder... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Copperhead ( 187748 ) <talbrechNO@SPAMspeakeasy.net> on Monday August 12, 2002 @11:33AM (#4054329) Homepage
      Well, the government in the US tried a different tactic (perhaps unintentional). It's call incrementalism...

      When the Social Security system, everyone received a social security number that we were assured [cpsr.org] that it would not be used as a personal ID number. But, there was never a law passed to keep it from being an ID number.

      Then, of course, we got used to it... everyone has a social security number. It became a defacto ID number. At my school [wcupa.edu], each student is given an id number, but rarely does anyone know it, because you can use your SS# anywhere you need your id#.

      Now, with the war on terrorism, I'm sure someone will get the bright idea of changing the SS# into an identification number, and across the country, millions of people will scratch their heads and say, "What was it before?"

      • Re:I wonder... (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Well, the government in the US tried a different tactic (perhaps unintentional).

        I love all of you conspiracy theorists out there. I really do.

        However, the US government is overwhelmingly incompentent. You can ask my drunk mailman neighbor, who's claim to fame was nearly dying at work from an alcohol-related seizure. The best part, they can't fire him! I want that job!

        I'll paraphrase Bill Maher to finish this post: "The government can't even deliver the mail!" Trust me, they're not smart enough to run some global spy network on all 280 million plus people in this country, cataloging their every word and move.
        • Trust me, they're not smart enough to run some global spy network on all 280 million plus people in this country, cataloging their every word and move.

          Despite the government lacking ambition and rescources currently, I still think it sets a bad precident to give them the right to do it. After the second we dearm ourselves against oppression, it's only a matter of time before someone executes the previously unthinkable.
      • Well, Larry Ellison proposed a national ID system, of course based on Oracle database software. That proposal came out right after the attacks, but it was fought against and seems to have faded away. But considering the amount of hyperbole that's out there, and the willingness of the american population to put up with it (or more accurately, their apathy), it's possible that such a system may be required very soon. Let's hope that the protests happen here if that were to come about.
      • I'm surprised that they didn't have an ID number before...regardless of whether SIN's (lets not forget the canadians) and SSN's were meant to *be* id numbers, they are now...I mean consider when I got this job I have now, I have to provide 2 or three identifying numbers for all those bloody forms... It's getting harder and harder as time passes to go through life without numbers attached to you.
        -binky.

  • Some insight into the Japanese situation: (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Blind Linux ( 593315 ) on Monday August 12, 2002 @11:04AM (#4054162) Journal
    The Japanese are a culture that prides themselves on traditional values of honor, discretion and privacy. The 11 digit number system is an affront to this system of values in the eyes of many Japanese... this is the reason for the protests.
    Many Japanese do not see any reason for the 11 digit number. They feel that this level of monitoring and tracking goes against their traditional values, and feel detached from the events that have lead to higher security levels all over the world.
    Despite the Sarin gas attacks by Aum [crimelibrary.com], the Japanese remain very confident in their society's moral standing and place privacy and discretion on a high pedestal.
    • culture that prides themselves on traditional values of honor, discretion and privacy

      -A culture where people willingly register their personal information with the local police officers (for "emergency use only")
      -Where privacy is referred to as "puraibashii" because the language has no native term for the concept?
      -Where people have commonly faced discrimination in housing, employment, and marriage based on information the government-listed family register?

      Must be a different Japan than the one I lived in :)
      • - Registering personal information at the police station is not something Japanese people do. I have no idea what this means.

        - There are lots of words like "puraibashii" that have no Japanese equivalent but that's not to say the concept is unknown. The culture relies to a certain extent on "unsaid" rules which go deeper than language itself.

        - Housing and employment do not require "family register" information. However, you raise a good point when it comes to marriage. Sometimes, it's been known that the parents of the bride- or husband-to-be will quietly hire a detective firm to check up on the other party's family past.

        Japan's a fast changing society and there is a definite generation gap. In "traditional" Japan - the Japan portrayed by the original poster - people would have actually been more likely accept such an ID system without protest, to keep the "wa" (peace, harmony). It is precisely because Japan is changing that we are now starting to see people protest about these and other things. It's good to see people starting to give a sh*t at last.
      • They also call a knife naifu, does this mean that there were no knives in Japan before english speaking people came there?
  • ...must be why the Japanese have the best porn.
  • Why is this a such big deal? How is this different from a Social Security Card in the US?

    • Re:Jumping the Gun (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      > The Slash in Slashdot would be more accurate if it leaned to the left :)

      Then it would be backslashdot.org
    • I allmost spit out my coffee when I read that ;)

    • Re:Jumping the Gun (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Ths point is the japanese are protesting it, while us americans just bent over and took it you know where without protest. Of course, at the time that SS was instituted, the political climate was different: Large wars, fears about things like communist threats, and the like, and SS was touted as being nothing more than a retirement savings plan. Too bad it became a national ID.

    • Re:Jumping the Gun (Score:3, Insightful)

      by DLWormwood ( 154934 )
      It's not different, yet I wish the Japanese luck with blocking it. Here in the States, the SSN has mutated from being a government benefit ID to being used to track credit histories and employment. Logic may dictate that the Slippery Slope is not a valid concern, but history shows otherwise.
  • ...if the next step is to offer free 'feature filled' tatooing of these numbers onto every persons' arm at the time of birth?

    Now where have I heard of this concept before...

    --trb
  • How come we get away with a 9-digit unique ID, whereas in Japan (with less population, surely) they need an 11-digit one?

    • Re:9-11 (Score:2, Interesting)

      by speedy1161 ( 47255 )
      Because they want theirs to be unique. No where in the Social Security law does it mandate that every SS# be unique although it is rare that two+ people have the same number. This stems from the fact that SSN's were never meant to be ID numbers, but through a series of Executive Orders, has become just that. A good reference on this is the book "A Gift Of Fire"
      • that is totaly wrong. SSN were supposed to be unique, thats why they have always had a pattern.
        SSN that start with a 5 are from a certian local, for example.

        There was a case of a wallet maker who put a fake SSN card in the wallet to show everybody where to put there card. unfortunatly the fake card had his secretaries SSN on it. A l0ot of people who bought thatr wallet thouth the fake SSN number was their SSN number and started using it. obvously this caused some concern at some gov't agency

        They where meant to be a tax ID. How can you have a federal tax ID for all adults if they aren't unique?

  • Banner ad connected to a story about the Big Brother aspects of Japan's national ID system: A closeup of an Asian woman's eyes, and the text "See all. Know all."


  • The Japanese have shown the world they have the brains and the guts to get their arses in gear and DO SOMETHING when their government steps out of line.

    And no, whining on /. does not count.

    I'll be HERE [stopwar.org.uk]. You dont have to take action as direct as that but voting does not count for shit. If something your government does pisses you off, say so!

    Ali

    • I'll be HERE. You dont have to take action as direct as that but voting does not count for shit.

      Referencing some pinko website is apparently more important than legitimate forms of electing representation and participating in one's democracy.
      Right.

      • I never said I don't vote, but in the face of the mass media and the public that it has in the palm of it's hand, The Big Three will be the only partys to get any real coverage and thus any chance of coming to power.

        Direct action from writing letters to MP's up to, for example, events promoted on these so-called "pinko websites" [hey, that must mean linux is a "pinko" OS, yeah?] gets public opinion noticed. When has the Blair government ever cared shit for public opinion in order to serve public interest? Fuel protest, privatisations [tube / air traffic], healthcare, "war on terror", blah blah...

        In my opinion it's preciseley because most people think that a vote [usually based soleley on "info" from the mass media] once every few years is all the maintainance their democracy needs, that there is so much corruption and expectations of governments have nosedived.

        How many people not only giving a shit but actually doing something about it will it take for standards of government, and thus quality of life, to actually improve?

        Ali

  • just give them a little bit of money, but keep it in a bank so they think it's valuable. If they want the money, the are going to need a 'claim' number for their money, and everyone can have their own unique 'claim' number to use at their discgresion. now they won't have a problem with the ID number. hmmm... I love SS....
  • What's the problem with having an SSN used as an ID number? Has anybody here been tracked down and been taken advantage of because of it? All it does is get rid of two or three more tracking steps, and that's what we're all about -- efficiency -- right?

    Seriously, beyond THEORETICAL problems, has anyone actually experienced something truly wrong by SSNs? I mean, so what if you can have your credit tracked? Most people trying to hide it shouldn't be dealt with in business anyway.

    Yeah, the entire system works on corporate greed in wanting to get the most out of the smallest investment by any means whatsoever, but isn't that what capitalism is in the first place -- a system built on greed? So why shouldn't anybody for a capitalist society want it?

    Just curious. I'm just a brainwashed American, so I don't see the problem.

    • Re:So? (Score:1)

      by adb ( 31105 )
      An ID number that is used everywhere is very easy for bad people to find out. If it is used as an authentication method, it allows identity theft. Unfortunately, the SSN is both used everywhere and used as an authentication method, which makes identity theft easy unless you very closely guard your SSN (and sometimes even then, if you live in the wrong state). It would take a lot to convince me that some other ID number would not go down the same road.
      • True, true. It's just that most people here have been crying the evils of such a system and mentioning Big Brother and frankly, to those that have been saying that (not you), they have enough information as it is to track you if they want to.

        Anyway, with any convenience comes its inherant security problems. On a Win9x machine, if you leave your pass on Outlook Express and don't password it (or Hotmail), then anyone who has access to your machine can look through your mail or "verify" things or reset your Paypal password and have all the money in your account cashed out and mailed to a Swiss bank account. If someone has your Paypal pass, as long as you have a credit card or bank account on it, they can spend away and it'd be a pain in the ass to get those charges reversed.

        Okay, that was just one example. But I think a bank account number would cause more damage than an SSN; if someone's going to forge ID cards with your name on them, they're going to do that anyway, whereas you can lose all your money immediately with your bank account number...although you'd need the SSN there, too.

        Anyway, I hold my SSN with a death grip, and so far I've had no identity theft problems. So, until that happens, I'm content to sit on my lazy American ass and keep my SSN.
        • Anyway, I hold my SSN with a death grip, and so far I've had no identity theft problems. So, until that happens, I'm content to sit on my lazy American ass and keep my SSN.

          Lucky you. Unfortunately, my college used my SSN as my student number, with which my grades and such were publicly posted. Any one of a few thousand students and any clever con artists who come on campus looking for numbers could have my SSN and name right now, just waiting to exploit it.
    • Yeah, the entire system works on corporate greed in wanting to get the most out of the smallest investment by any means whatsoever, but isn't that what capitalism is in the first place -- a system built on greed? So why shouldn't anybody for a capitalist society want it?

      Well said.

      Question: Are you for capitalism, or would you switch to a (truly) better system? [Sure, I've got a better system in mind, but it'd require "phenominal cosmic power" to implement. ;) ]

      (And no, I'm not suggesting communism or any other hippy crap, nor do I think that ostracizing everyone else and forming polticial cults can work.)
  • I've been living in japan for a year or so now and have noticed how little privacy there is out here.

    -Your local police will visit your house as soon as you move to collect information on who lives there, 2 emergency contact numbers, where you work, what you do, etc.

    -The state run television network (NHK) has your name and address and will keep tabs on whether you pay them or not and send people to your house to collect fee

    -Buying anything by credit card often requires your telephone number (written in write after your signature)

    -Think your safeway/vonsclub card is bad? Every store here has a "pointcard" most of which are electronic to track your purchases. And if you're a geek that shops regularly at one of the major electronics stores (bic camera, yodobashi, etc.) expect to pay 15% more on everything if you don't sign up for one of these cards

    -You can buy phones with GPS built in. And most non-gps phones can already be tracked by the phone company based on cell-site (since the cell coverage is quite good, the location info is accurate)

    -People can send you spam to your cell phone which you have to pay for (at maybe $.05 each) and it's not illegal

    -National health insurance requires health checks every year with results reported to your employer

    -Renting an apartment requires you to have character references and financial guarantees. You also need to sign provisions that limit the number of friends you can have over, require you to put a parking sticker on your bicycle, etc.

    -Signing up for recreational activities (like bike races, or just buying tickets from a travel agency) they often ask for information like your blood type, birthdate,etc.

    -None of the mailing lists, etc. ever offer the option to 'opt out'

    The big difference between this 11 digit number and all these other bits and pieces is that the new number is nationwide and owned by the government. Oddly, they seem to distrust their central government more than all the shops, conglomerates, local governments, and other establishments that they give their information out to. The people are too naive to realize that it's pretty doable to relate information from one database to another.

    • As a foreigner in Japan for over 10 years now, I have to add that it's refreshing for me to see the uproar that the nationwide ID is generating. I've had to carry a Foreign Registration ID card here since day one, and that card has my fingerprint on it. A little bit of what's good for me is good for them, I guess.

      As for trusting the government here, it governs in spite of its efforts to muck things up. The people are so very right not to want the right hand to know what the left hand is doing because it effects a sort of damage control. As doable as it might be to relate info from database to database here, no sector wants to give up its autonomy. No matter how technically feasible, nobody here wants to share the information.

      It will be interesting to see how life changes for the average Japanese once all government agencies will have access to a unified data source.

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