Complete Net Cafe Shutdown After Beijing Fire 284
lunchlady doris writes: "The BBC has this story that tells of a fire in an internet cafe in Beijing that killed 24 people. The mayor responded to this tragedy by shutting down all 2,400 cafes in the city, most of which are operated illegally. Only 200 cafes will be allowed to reopen, pending municipal regulation. Needless to say, the netizens of Beijing are pissed and see this as a move to quash the limited access to the net that the Chinese people currently have."
China's up to some weird stuff (Score:3, Insightful)
This closing of Internet cafes is indicative of something, perhaps a new crackdown on freedoms as the Chinese populace is exposed to more and more visions of freedom seekers being beat down at the gates of the S. Korean embassy or a mother and grandmother beaten up at the Japanese embassy.
Re:China's up to some weird stuff (Score:1, Informative)
Noting new, noting to wory about extra. I hoped the internet would change thing a bit, but thats dream so.
Radjif
Re:China's up to some weird stuff (Score:3, Insightful)
To be honest your statement is true. However, if you care to read any news on it, you can see that the reason to shutdown netcafes is for safety and license inspection, it has nothing to do with squeezing free of speech and human right. While it may be true that China Government has problems with human right, do you guys has to related all the bad things happened in China to human right and free speech?
Recent floods in China has killed thousands of people, can we conclude by this instance that human right and freedom of speech are in jeopardy?
Re:China's up to some weird stuff (Score:2)
The reason this has not happened is because the license would become a tool to restrict freedom of speech. Criticize the president and you lose your license. Report on Camp X-Ray detainees' claims that they are being mistreated and you lose your license. Etc.
China makes no secret of the fact that it doesn't want its citizens to have access to publications not controlled by the government (it blocks access to major Western newspapers including the NY Times and Washington Post). I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the Chinese government has been waiting for something like this to happen to give it an excuse to close the cafes. I would go so far as to keep my mind open to the possibility that the Chinese government set the fire to create this convenient excuse.
How does mandatory licensing ensure protection against a fire in a cafe? Why does this new licensing apply only to Internet cafes and not barber shops? Both use electronic equipment that could start a fire, but only one has the potential to introduce uncensored information to the masses in a shielded society. I think what the Chinese government is really worried about is the fact that ideas spread like forest fires.
Re:China's up to some weird stuff (Score:3, Interesting)
Personally, I am of the opinion that the Chinese government set that very convenient fire itself, just to provide an excuse to seize control of the net cafes. Therefore I would say it relates to the free speech issue after all. Even worse, I am fairly certain our precious US government would do the same type of manipulation to justify their actions...
Re:China's up to some weird stuff (Score:2)
If you actually believe that, then you truly are gullable. A fire in a building kills a lot of people because the doors are locked. The government uses the fact that the building happens to be housing an internet cafe as an excuse to shut down other internet cafes. Now, there's two ways to look at it: (1) - The fact that the building housed an internet cafe has nothing to do with the fire hazards and so the government is using a random coincidence as an excuse to go after internet cafes, or, worse yet, you could look at it this way, (2) - The fact that the internet cafe has to hide from the government because of the government's restrictions on internet use is what caused the fire hazards such as locked exits. So either the government is shutting down internet cafes giving a fake reason that has nothing to do with reality, or they are doing it because of a situation they themselves caused. Either way they are in the wrong.
Re:China's up to some weird stuff (Score:2, Informative)
So 2 days later, there is news of 93 killed in a Chinese mining disaster. Mining accidents in China have been quite prevalent. Why doesn't the government care as much about the miners?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacif
Re:China's up to some weird stuff (Score:2)
The reason that you think it that way is due to the bad track record of freedeom China. Everything that would result in blockage of information is very sensitive, we can understand that.
In fact the nationwide inspection of illegal established netcafes has already begun BEFORE the instance. I'm sure NY does not have 90% unlicensed netcafe, does it? Illegal opening of netcafes not only endanger the safety of their customers, it also causes social problems as it attracts drug-dealers and prostitutes(no kidding, ask a Chinese).
However, when we think the other way round, if China Government did'nt put too much restriction in licnesing netcafes there wouldn't be that many illegal operating shops, thus results in this tragedy. Hell I'm not totally disagree with you! LESS RESTRICTION TO NETCAFES PLEASE!
Re:China's up to some weird stuff (Score:2)
Are netcafe's required to be licensed in NY? In my town I can set a netcafe up without a license, just rent (or buy) some space on main street, a T1, and some comptuers. Insurance is strongly recomended, but not strictly required. I may want to incorporate (if I have any sense I'll seek a lawyer to examine liability issues) but there is no license required.
Re:China's up to some weird stuff (Score:2)
I suppose that you could do what you say if it was your home, and you didn't charge for the services that you provided, but how likely is that to become widespread.
(Mind you, I know of businesses that don't bother. But they don't have store-fronts.)
Re:China's up to some weird stuff (Score:2)
I think you're addressing two different issues. In the US you do not need an "internet cafe license". You can file the paperwork to open a pet food store and fill it with computer terminals and not stock any pet food and you will be perfectly legal, so long as you pay your taxes properly and follow rules about occupancy levels (appropriate number of fire escapes, etc.) and food safety.
In China you need to explicitly declare that you are opening a net cafe. You face extra reporting requirements and will in many cases be under increased scrutiny from the authorities.
Re:China's up to some weird stuff (Score:2)
Without license? Even BR?
Re:China's up to some weird stuff (Score:2)
Yes, there are restrictions, like no beer served. I don't think that is right, but that is the way it is.
Re:China's up to some weird stuff (Score:5, Interesting)
What's really weird is that my internet explorer refuses to open the beijing internet cafe story on yro.slashdot.org. strange because everything else on yro (including the is china losing control story) still works. being an old slashdot reader I ssh-ed to my unix box and used lynx instead. i've no idea how they would block a single url that way, but hey, i'm a westerner in china, so i'm a little paranoid...
XENNA
(sorry 'bout the layout, btw: same story on the pc next to me)
Be careful.... (Score:2)
Re:Be careful.... (Score:2)
Re:Be careful.... (Score:2)
I for one wouldn't want to gamble on some beaurocrat having the insight to even think of it.
-
Re:China's up to some weird stuff (Score:3, Insightful)
However, I see no direct relation of above with the shutting down of netcafes. Your rationale is that you don't like the way China Government treats people in both cases so they are connected.
I know take an objective view on cases related to commies would be unwelcomed here. I don't care, I just state the fact.
How do you shutdown illegally operated netcafes? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:How do you shutdown illegally operated netcafes (Score:3, Interesting)
It only takes a little cynicism to take the view that this is an opportunity for China to shut down something they don't like. To be honest, does one fire in one cybercafe really justify the closure of all such establishments?
Re:How do you shutdown illegally operated netcafes (Score:3, Funny)
No of course not! It justifies the closure of the entire internet for safety reasons however! please unplug your computer now
--see thats a joke people.. humor.. itz a good thing..
Re:How do you shutdown illegally operated netcafes (Score:3, Funny)
Just playing devil's advocate...
You wheren't expecting that... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:You wheren't expecting that... (Score:2)
(Fire) security is usually the first place where people cut costs in public buildings.
Fire extinguishers cost money, and the emergency exit uses valuable floor space that could so much better be used for putting another internet station in.
That's why people need to have a license to operate such cafe's, and if it's only so that the fire department gets to police the security measures put in place to protect the customers.
Re:You wheren't expecting that... (Score:2)
- If the internet cafe was allowed to be legal, no emergency exits would be locked
Nonesense. As with most other buildings in areas like that, doors were locked and windows were barred because of the threat of crime. They're protecting their hardware. If the police want to enter, they'd beat the door down. They're banking that theives won't do the same.Excuse or real concern? (Score:4, Insightful)
After the excitement dies back down, several of these cafés will be up and running again, most likely under new aliases and at new locations.
I doubt that this will have more than a temporary effect. Even on fire safety.
Re:Excuse or real concern? (Score:2)
Actually, it is. Consider that China is presently in the patient process of choosing new leaders and a new "president" (Hu Jintao), if that new leadership would look favorably on the mayor of Beijing for a little rounding up of civil liberties than this makes an effective example of his willingness. The present government has made no secret of encouraging the masses to embrace technology, buy on the government's terms. Very convenient.
Now might be a good time to update an old marxism: The internet is the opiate of the masses.
Re:Excuse or real concern? (Score:2, Informative)
No construction areas were blocked off -- pedestrians would just pick their way through cranes, pits, and piles of broken stone and concrete to get to the other side...
A cab we were in crashed into a bicycler in the street, and the policeman picked him up, dusted him off, and sent him on his way bleeding on his rickety bike.
On the way to ChangBaiShan we saw a number of overturned trucks along the side of the road, and finally flew off the road ourselves and flipped and crashed. This was after over an hour of imploring our insane driver to slow down.
When it comes to safety, the Chinese are still totally systematically insane.
Re:Excuse or real concern? (Score:2)
Ridiculous. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Ridiculous. (Score:1)
Re:Ridiculous. (Score:2)
Another thing that people use internet cafes for is to disagree with the government, or to read information that disagrees with the government's official position, without the act being tracked to them.
Once that's no longer an issue, I'll accept that home internet access is as useful to society as netcafes.
Until then, you're just an apologist for those who are so pathetically insecure about the righteousness of their weak moral and intellectual positions that they have to use force to keep people from seeing alternative viewpoints.
Re:Ridiculous. (Score:2)
If you want a rough idea of how expensive things are there for the average Beijinger, multiply your cost in US dollars for an item by 5. So if you buy a computer here for $1,000, it would have an equivalent cost of $5,000 there. These aren't exact figures but they represent how expensive things are to the average Beijinger.
Internet access for the home is typically provided by an Internet Card, which you buy for, say, 100 Yuan and which gives you, say, 2 months of unlimited use; it's like a calling card but it's for the internet. 100 Yuan is about $12, so multiple by 5 and you get roughtly $60 for two months of internet, or about $30 per month. This is not so bad and most Beijingers who own computers in fact seem comfortable paying this amount. Compare this to the cost of the internet service provided as part of every person's phone line (just dial 263, username 263, password 263), which cost me about $150/month US at the rate I was using it (until I realized how expensive it was and switched to one of the Internet cards) - way out of the budget for most Beijingers.
But the real barrier is the cost of the computer; since most people there can't afford to own one themselves, they have no choice but to use Internet Cafes.
And if you go outside of the major cities of China, people are much, much, MUCH poorer, and something as extravagant as a computer would be way, way beyond their reach.
I went to maybe a dozen internet cafes in China when I was there and usually the charge was somewhere between 3 and 10 Yuan per hour. Very affordable. These internet cafes are almost always filthy, with cigarette butts all over the place, cigarette smoke permeating the air, pimply chinese teenagers giggling and typing into their IM equivalent, and invariably someone blasting horrible Chinese pop ballads through cheap $1 speakers. Not that different from what you'd expect in the US really, save for the cigarrette smoke. For inexpensive internet access, they can't be beat.
None of the ones I went to had locked doors or looked like they were trying to dodge public scrutiny, but then again, I only ever went in the conspicuous ones, I never went to any one that made itself difficult to find (because I never would have found it).
I agree with the poster who speculated that the reason that these Internet cafes in Beijing were made illegal was probably due to serious violations of whatever flimsy safety codes they have there, not because of freedom of speech issues. Or perhaps, as the poster suggested, because the internet cafe owner didn't grease the right local government palms, which is quite possible - graft is a huge problem in China.
BSA in Beijing? (Score:4, Funny)
China: why wouldn't you want the net? (Score:1, Funny)
if only you knew.... (Score:4, Informative)
Think a large room with only one door(maybe two... second one likely locked) and 100-200 conmputers with a few hundred people. When they do things here they tend to do it big.
Windows are often barred as well so if there is a fire near an exit.... you can imagine the results.
This is why they are shutting down the cafes.... they are death traps.
As for controlling Internet access.... they want to limit the hours and the ages of the people who can access it - stop school children wasting their time there and it also means you have to be an adult to use it outside of school holidays.
Re:if only you knew.... (Score:1)
Re:if only you knew.... (Score:1, Funny)
Re:if only you knew.... (Score:2, Funny)
Should be popular on Slashdot
So, in other words (Score:2, Insightful)
Cool. Less SPAM for a while (Score:1, Flamebait)
After I started filtering out on Korean netblocks 95% of the SPAM I get is chinese. So this got to be good.
I would buy the mayor a few of what he drinks.
To the moderator: don't mod it down as flamebait. Ask someone who has ever tried to find an abuse@ for a netblock in that part of the world first.
Clear things up (Score:5, Insightful)
The students are killed as all possible exits were either blocked or locked up.
The building has only one entrance/exit, and it was locked at the time of fire, and the windows were barred with steel. As a matter of fact the owner didn't get proper license to open an Internet cafe and the door was always locked to avoid inspection. The windows were barred to prevent thievery, and it's not unusual to see many factories and commercial buildings have their windows barred for this reason.
As a result the authority shutdown all Internet cafes for safety and license inspection. In fact only 1/10 of the Internet cafes got proper commercial license for. It's not an action against civilians' Internet access, at least not directly.
Of course, I'd expect people in Beijing has tough time accessing Internet in the future, as the conservative people would sneak chance to impose more restrictions.
Re:Clear things up (Score:2)
Agent Provocateurs (Score:3, Interesting)
The building has only one entrance/exit, and it was locked at the time of fire, and the windows were barred with steel. As a matter of fact the owner didn't get proper license to open an Internet cafe and the door was always locked to avoid inspection.
Two points you should consider in all this (please note that this isn't intended as a slight against China
1) Making a service illegal often leads to safety issues like this. Speakeasies during prohibition in the United States, unsanitary abortion clinics in the United States prior to Roe v. Wade, etc. The answere isn't to shut down all internet cafes, as if the demand is strong enough they will reopen regardless, perhaps even more secretively, and likely be just as unsafe as before.
2) Have you considered the possiblity that the fire was deliberately set by agent provocatuers, in order to manufacture an excuse for a widespread crackdown? What better way to turn a very unpopular move into an acceptable one "we have your safety at heart, that's why we must take away your access to information that we don't want you to see"? Again, this sort of thing (though generally without the loss of life) has happened in western society more than once.
Of course, I'd expect people in Beijing has tough time accessing Internet in the future, as the conservative people would sneak chance to impose more restrictions.
Creating conditions where such an action becomes popular is a time-honored method by doing exactly this: sneaking it "through the front door" so to speak, in plain view, because the frightened masses have suddenly started demanding exactly what before they would have fought tooth and nail to avoid. Whether it is exploiting happy circumstance, or manufacturing such circumstance, nearly every government engages in this despicable behavior, including my own right now in response to 9/11 (USA).
Re:Agent Provocateurs (Score:2)
Then you are a complete ass.
Which part of "...this isn't intended as a slight against China
Re:Clear things up (Score:4, Interesting)
Since 90% of Beijing's Internet cafes have been operating illegally anyway, there is nothing to be gained by ordering all of them to shut down. The government is just using this incident to say "Look, the evil Internet is killing our children".
The government also took the opportunity to encourage citizens to turn in any Internet cafes they are aware of, in the name of public safety. These tactics are reminiscent of the "turn in your brother in the name of the people" tactics used by most authoritarian states over the years.
This is nothing but a thinly-veiled move to further restrict the Internet in China. It's a terrible shame that those students died, but they died because of a government that forces them to do their free speaking behind locked doors. Rest assured that the cafes, both legitimate and otherwise, will have a much harder time starting back up once the government completes their (lengthy) "fire inspections".
Re:Clear things up (Score:2)
Typical slashdotter.. go back and re-read the comment.
The door was locked to prevent a surprise inspection. The windows were barred to prevent thievery.
Re:Clear things up (Score:2)
Re:Clear things up (Score:2)
Now, as for the question being rhetorical I highly doubt that it was because it asks, "but do you have any idea why the door was locked at the time of the fire?" not "why are the doors typically locked at cyber cafes?" The original question pleads ignorance, not clever rhetoric.
Re:Clear things up (Score:2)
Re:Clear things up (Score:2)
Uhhh.. go read the original post. No where in there does he answer why the door was locked. He says, "Everything in China is monitored" but doesn't answer why the door was locked.
Try again, you're 0/2 now.
Re:Clear things up (Score:2)
That is the answer why.
Re:Clear things up (Score:2)
Ah, I'm sorry for missing such a wonderful use of clever rhetoric. Perhaps I can take lessons from someone so inclined as you. Oh, that's right, he states before that:
Hmmm.. yeah, that sounds like he was answering his own rhetorical question. He was searching for answers that were already provided. Go back and read the comment. 0/3, try again.
Re:Clear things up (Score:2)
The sad thing is you probably thought you were being sarcastic there.
Re:Clear things up (Score:2)
sarcasm Pronunciation Key (särkzm)
n.
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
3. The use of sarcasm. See Synonyms at wit1.
Keep trying mate.
Excuses (Score:3, Troll)
Of course they could have shut down most of the cafes before, since they were illegal, but that would expose them to international pressure and make them look like tyrants deemed to deny freedom and anonymity.
Now, they have the perfect excuse. Under the banner of "think of the fires", they can close down most of the cafes and start imposing strict regulations and control on the remaining ones. If any of the remaining ones fails to comply, they can always audit them for fire regulations compliance, and subsequently shut them down.
And what will the international community say? Nothing. What can you say?
Any kind of totalitary regime comes with its own risks. Abuse of power comes to mind as a prominent one. The Chinese government will always leverage their existing power in order to maitain and obtain more power. Frankly, I don't know how a one-billion-people country can be ruled. I don't even know if a democratic regime as we know it would ever work there. But I'm sure that it can't be much worse than it already is.
Governing India (Score:4, Interesting)
Of course it can be... Look at India. Sure, the government collapses once in a while, but I think India's a lot harder to run: $2.2k GNP per cap, vs China's $3.6k GNP, massive ethnic strife in India and interests from so many different states, etc.
My point is that India is a pretty radical experiment in democracy... just consider the expense of running elections in a place that has a $2200 per capita GNP.
Re:Governing India (Score:2)
Please consider, though, that you only need to pay election workers based on that GNP. And that that GNP is based on an entirely different economy of scale than the US economy. And that most Indians are not picketing in West Palm beach for new electronic balloting boxes and banning butterfly ballots.
For instance: A starter home in San Mateo, California costs $399,995. A starter home in Cleveland, Ohio (comparably equipped), costs you $79,995. So while it may cost americans $10 for a reasonable dinner out, the pedestrian restaurants of India may only charge $2 for a comparable meal.
A very simplistic example, but an important distinction. You're directly comparing currencies, but not costs based on the differences in economies.
Re:Governing India (Score:2)
Restaurants in India are unimaginably cheaper than you suggest. But the point is that when so many people are under the poverty line, voting seems like a grand waste of money, because *any* marginal cost could also be used to feed the populace.
Re:Governing India (Score:2)
Thank you, Emporer Palpatine.
Or, for the non Sci-Fi, politiTrolls out there:
Thank you, Grand Emporer Ashcroft.
Voting is never a waste of money. Costs of manning an election are easily justified by the benfits of a democracy; and in India's case, I think we can easily say the government has been spending a LOT of money where it should not be... *cough* NUCLEAR WEAPONS *cough*
Re:Governing India (Score:2)
So thank you for your misreading.
locked emergency exits (Score:5, Insightful)
If that would have been any other kind of building in town, nobody else would care.
The reality is that, "Investigators blamed the high death toll on locked emergency exits. " This is all there is to the story.
Shit happens [bbc.co.uk].
Re:locked emergency exits (Score:3, Offtopic)
> high death toll on locked emergency exits. " This > is all there is to the story.
That's not all there is. The point of the story being on /. is that the Bejing mayor is using the fact that the building was an Internet cafe as an excuse to crack down on *all* Internet cafes. This is obviously something they would like to do, and the argument looks at first like:
1. Cafe crowded and not following safety procedures because of lack of regulation
2. Cafe burns down, terrible loss of life.
3. Regulate Internet cafes so they follow safety prcedures.
Which in theory is great. The worry is that if the city starts regulating the cafes, due to past behaviour it's quite likely the authorities will also try to use the move to curtail Internet use and content.
Re:locked emergency exits (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:locked emergency exits (Score:2)
IMHO the mayor's attempt at controlling the situation (Internet cafés spreading like wildfire--no play on words intended) seems more like something he said to save face in the light of the tragedy (24 dead). Still, I would be surprised if this atually changed anything now that the Chinese have become Internet addicts.
Re:locked emergency exits (Score:2, Interesting)
The reality is that, "Investigators blamed the high death toll on locked emergency exits. " This is all there is to the story.
Don't just read the article -- read between the lines, to what's really going on here. The cafes are often dimly lit, hidden from view and with heavy doors to deter the authorities - but which can turn them into a death trap in case of fire. [bbc.co.uk]
Would those doors have been locked in an American or other western country's cyber cafes? The subject at hand is freedom of information and civil rights, two subjects which I hope are very important to the average slashdot reader.
Re:locked emergency exits (Score:2)
I was about to craft a more elaborate answer to your comment, but I just found someone posting this [slashdot.org] (+5, Insightful) and I must agree 110% with the poster on this one.
I did not mean to criticise the human rights or whatever. It is just too bad that the fire was worsened by the fact that the place was toughened like a bunker, and that this essentially what made the story what it is...
Re:locked emergency exits (Score:2)
THAT *IS* ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS.
*HOW* CAN YOU FAIL TO SEE THAT?
This entirely to do with whole nature of the corrupt, abusive, unelected, manipulating communist government.
If a fire broke out and people died in ANY western cybercafe no western nation would shut down all cybercafe's in the city!
The Chinese government shutting down all cybercafe's is about human rights. Period.
Most business places in China are so unsafe they would fail western health and safety standards yet the Chinese government do *nothing*. Do you *really* think the government have had a change of heart and now care about it's populace? The same government that throws people trying to leave the country in jail, that openly beats up grandmothers in view of the world, or that runs tanks over it's own students peacefully protesting in full view of the world with no HINT of remorse?
Re:locked emergency exits (Score:2)
Also, I think your patently wrong, I bet the friends and family of the young man who was run over by a tank during a peace protest care quite a bit about what we westerners think and do, as do many oppressed people throughout the world.
How much do *you* are about other people?
Re:locked emergency exits (Score:2)
Closing Net Cafe does NOT mean quashing Internet (Score:5, Interesting)
People who go the Cafes are mostly teenagers. Closing the net cafes does not affect anything at all for most Internet surfers.
I can remember, several years ago, there was a huge fire in a dance club, which killed hundreds of people. The city closed all its dance clubs for one month and only allow those which has the right license and meets fire standards to reopen. I think it is the same thing here for Net Cafes. It has nothing to do with quashing the Internet access. It can't.
Notes: I just checked with friends in China. They can acess slashdot.com and cnn.com without any limitation.
Re:Closing Net Cafe does NOT mean quashing Interne (Score:2)
It depends on where in China, but I expect you're correct for Beijing.
The bigger issue here is who can afford to have their own computer at home. Most students, certainly, can not. That's why Internet cafes such as this one (in the University district) are so popular.
I agree with the gist of your message, though. This isn't about trying to prevent Internet access.
Re:Closing Net Cafe does NOT mean quashing Interne (Score:2)
but most can't afford a COMPUTER!
Read the damn CNN link, for god's sake,
Re:Closing Net Cafe does NOT mean quashing Interne (Score:2)
Do your friends live in foreigner housing? Housing which is set aside for for westerners typically has alot more free access to internet and TV than domestic housing. In western hotels you can get CNN and unfiltered Internet, but not in private residences or public Chinese housing.
When I was there getting Slashdot was no problem at all, but CNN was always blocked.
Careful With That Net (Score:2, Funny)
Internet a Good Thing ™ (Score:3, Interesting)
It would appear the consensus so far is that Internet is a good thing and therefore all access should be free and open. I would tend to agree, although what is clear is this: any government saying something is illegal, or immoral, or expressing concern about the effect it might have on young people, tends to stigmatise it, but also to make it more attractive. Internet will not be seen as a learning tool if the government suggest that young people should not be spending a lot of time with it. Just like parents years ago bemoaned computer games and too much time in front of those things, but at least then (before the Sega Megadrive and Nintendo Entertainment System, at least) most home machines had a keyboard and taught people like me the basic skills to then get into REAL computing.
Internet should not be discouraged. It is a basic skill that the younger generation will need to progress in the increasingly digital economy. I don't mean computer programming, I mean basic business management and productivity increases by leveraging the power of IT. China (or any other régime for that matter) is making a mistake by making Internet taboo. Late night surfing, on these kid's own free time, should be encouraged. Making porn or whatever illegal usually does not help. I always remember that during prohibition in the US, alcohol consumption rose, and I think now of the UK where tough drug laws are doing nothing to stop alarming increases in heroin addiction.
Still, China has a long long way to go. So do many developing nations. Until the incumbent powers that be have embraced Internet themselves, they are onto a loser. Sad, because it is because of reasons like this that the younger generations are not getting enough time in front of the Internet to start noticing the finer netiquette of things, since they are effectively involved in illegal activity just by surfing in those places, and are therefore unlikely to be good netizens...
Oh, it's time to bash China again (yawn). (Score:3, Insightful)
And before you start whining about democracy, how many of you voted for your CEO or board of directors? Get over it.
Re:Oh, it's time to bash China again (yawn). (Score:3, Insightful)
China is not a free society, but for US domestic reasons it was given WTO membership before other countries that were far more deserving. The growth is illusory, the stability is at the expense of repressing all forms of dissent. That is unless you are a businessman either in the PRC's army or have contracts with them.
Many people have issues with the US, but last time I heard, the military didn't run businesses with civillians in special work camps.
On a final point and more on-topic, I agree that the closing of the cafes is more to do with the extreme fire risk they represent. However this does present a convenient excuse.
Re:Oh, it's time to bash China again (yawn). (Score:2)
On the subject of Amnesty, both the US and China have one thing in common, that is the number of judicial executions. Only in China, they like to make it a public event.
China is a far from free country or market. The only people who have trumpetting this are those who are trying to make a lot of money out of selling things to the chinese. Mind you, after PATRIOT and a few other things, the US may get there too.
Re:Oh, it's time to bash China again (yawn). (Score:2)
"The people in this country *stongly* support their government and it's track record of growth, stability and success"
The idiocy of this statement is almost overwhelming. Have you ever picked up a history book? How about the cultural revolution? The Great Leap Forward? The civil war between the communists and nationalists? Tiananmen Square? If this is stability and a track record of growth, I'd love to have some of whatever you're smoking. We could go back further too to the thousands of years of warlords and dynasties but your perspective is obviously a little limited.
Cafe Owner arrested (Score:3, Insightful)
Iron bars prevented the escape of customers, who screamed vainly for help at the windows as the building burned. The cafe was located in a hi-tech sector of the city, with two universities. Most of the dead were students, according to the article.
New regulations will be drawn up for operation of these Cafes, and those who comply will be allowed to reopen. I suppose that firewalls, as well as fire escapes, will be on the list of requirements.
What is needed is a proper Internet tea-house (Score:2)
This isn't news for nerds.. (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no way Slashdot would have posted this article if the fire had occurred in any other form of business in china. And trying to pass this off as a human rights/totalitarian government issue is bullshit too.
this [theage.com.au] is something to get upset about
This [reuters.com] is a government going nuts
But this story, is standard practice worldwide. Illegal operations lead to loss of life, crack-down ensues. How much more commonplace [xso.com] can it be?
I should have posted this when I saw it. (Score:2)
One source, I believe Headline News, said the bars were in fact put on the windows by the government, although they didn't give a level of government.
They first reported that the fire started at 2:30 AM and some government officials (city level) had claimed it went out in 15 minutes; although another source said 45 minutes.
They claimed that the cafe was only open because they are close to the college but they vaguely implied that it was only open because the city watched them or something - didn't make sense.
So from the first reports it sounded like the city let them use the internet, the fire sounds like it was actually started by someone who works for the chinese government. Then they show up, put the fire out but it burns somewhere between 10 and 60 minutes killing, what, 24 people?
The people who did the saving was the other citizens; they showed pictures of mainly citizens pulling people out of the windows.
Then again I'm crazy - sounds like things that happen.
If this happens in america...... (Score:3, Insightful)
As for the anonymity of surfing in an internet cafe as opposed to home, there isn't any, since the government could just required all net cafe to keep a log of their patrons. China have universal ID cards so that won't be hard.
Just think about what would happen if this was in the US. Kids die in illegal net cafe/pub/dance party warehouse because there aren't any fire exits. Wouldn't you think the parents will all be in an outrage to close all these unsafe places down?
But it did..... (Score:2)
It happened in 1942 [cityofboston.gov], but rather than close down all the bars, it was the start of the enforcement of modern fire codes.
Re:But it did..... (Score:2)
Re:But it did..... (Score:2)
Re:If this happens in america...... (Score:2)
It's very hard to go from one kind of government to another. There are many expectation that have been learned. So new governments generally "fit into" the space that the old one fit into. Frequently they abandon some of the most irksome practices, but this isn't always the case. The new Russian government is probably a creation harkening back to some idealized version of the Duma (I haven't checked.) But you can bet that it will also have a lot of similarities to the prior government. Now it's "democratic", so many of the forms will be different. But it probably still has a love of centralized control that Bush could only aspire to.
Amusing to see the reactions. (Score:2, Insightful)
HELLO! REALITY CHECK!!! If they can close down all those Internet cafe's now they probably allready know where they are and they did not bother them until now. They HAVE TO close down all the cafe's to check if they aren't possible deathtraps as this one was. The city's mayor is held responsible for things like this. Too many people died just because the place was vitually locked on all doors and windows making it impossible to flee the place. It wasn't the government that locked these doors, it was the owner of the place who is responsible for all this.
Furthermore, why cry for this to be a HUMAN RIGHTS issue? In the states things are far more worse than you can imagine. Not only government trying to govern the Internet (think about the webfilters in library's and at schools or even about Carnivore) but also companies try to do this. Think about MSN and AOL.
Of course there are human rights issues in China. No doubt about that, but this is common sense. If you were a mayor of a substantial city what would you do if this happened in your city under your RESPONSIBILITY as you are obliged to safeguard your citizens. My guess is that you would close down as many of these places as you can to prevent a recurrence of the tragedy only to open up those which DO follow fire hazard regulations.
Greece (Score:2)
Not as much rights as safety (Score:2)
The fact they could be closed down so quickly means they operated with the government turning a blind eye. I'm sure officials were NOT receiving bribes to ignore them. That never happens.
95% of chinese businesses violate code (Score:2)
Arson? (Score:2)
Beijing Orders Internet Cafes Closed
Monday, June 17, 2002
Last updated at 2:06:53 AM PT
By AUDRA ANG
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER
BEIJING -- Beijing has ordered its 2,400 Internet cafes to close for safety inspections after a fire that killed 24 people in the Chinese capital's university district, state media said Monday.
The owner of the cafe where the fatal fire broke out before dawn Sunday has surrendered to police, said a woman who answered the phone at the district administration office. She wouldn't give her name or any details, and police weren't immediately available to confirm the report.
Mayor Liu Qi ordered Internet cafes in Beijing to close while the city draws up new regulations, the official Xinhua News Agency reported.
Cafes that can't meet safety and other standards will be shut down and their property confiscated, Liu was quoted as saying.
Those that meet the standards will have to reapply for licenses, although the mayor added that he did not want to encourage an increase in the number of cyber cafes, which are immensely popular in this city of 12 million.
Xinhua said just 200 of Beijing's 2,400 Internet cafes are properly licensed. Many are typically smoky and crowded, located in converted residential buildings or other spaces not necessarily equipped to handle large numbers of customers.
The fire at the 24-hour Lanjisu Cyber Cafe in the lively Haidian university district broke out early Sunday, when most of the customers were students taking advantage of lower Internet access rates.
Neighbors said they were awakened by screams for help.
A survivor, who was identified only by the surname Li, told the state-run newspaper Beijing Times that there were about 30 customers at the cafe, which could seat 100.
"It was around 3 a.m. when I smelled GASOLINE and saw thick smoke coming up from the bottom of the stairs," said Li, who went to the cafe with about 10 other students from Beijing Technology University.
"I told a cafe employee who went downstairs to check. He yelled that there was a fire and we all tried to escape," Li said.
Li said the fire had blocked the stairs and people began yelling for help through the windows, which were covered by iron grills. Neighbors managed to unscrew one grill and Li said he escaped with about seven other people.
...
Other places (Score:2)
Chinese entrepreneurs are as ethical as Bill Gates (Score:2)
Sorry for the libertarians out there but this is China reacting to a previously unregulated situation where people DIED.Sorry but this is a country which eats what we in the West consider to be pets. Think about that first.
The Chinese have a world-wide long tradition of disregarding safety codes, sanitary codes and would serve "long porc" if they though they could get away with it.
Re:Please DO NOT relate this tragedy to anything e (Score:2)
If you want to make a fair comparison, you have to keep in mind that many of these net-cafes were underground, illegal operations. A better question to ask would be, lets suppose that a fire broke out in a crack house in the US. Would the authorities respond to it by blaming their own War on (some) Drugs, for turning a disease into a crime in the first place? Would they review the policy that created this illegal underground? Or would they use it as an excuse to step up their efforts?
Criticize the Chinese government all you want - it certainly has its problems. But, let's drop the holier-than-thou attitude, please. Our own government is just as filled with opportunists who would jump at a situation such as this, and use it as an excuse to push their own agendas. For a real-life example, one needs look no further than the FBI since 9/11, and their efforts to extend their power in the guise of "defending against terrorists."
PLEASE DO relate this tragedy... (Score:2)
One can reasonably ask why the cafes were all illegal. Surely not all 2200 of them were death traps.
70 years ago, the United States tried clamping down on booze and speakeasys were the market's response to an absurd prohibition. Looks like China is going to have to learn the same lesson - clamp down on something people want and they'll find another way to get it, sometimes with disastrous results.
Speaking of 70 years ago, that's about the same time as the Reichstag Fire. Seems the Nazis wanted something to hang a cause on and so they set fire to the German Reichstag and blamed the Communists. I mention the Reichstag connection because of this odd quote from The Guardian [guardian.co.uk]
Odd thing that - smelling gasoline in an Internet Cafe.
Re:This is just fodder (Score:2)
Re:My experiences in China (Score:2)
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=31692&cid= 3411995 [slashdot.org]
Please remember not to feed the trolls.