Fax-Spam Prohibition Ruled Unconstitutional 90
An anonymous reader submitted a link to this Orange County Register story which reports that "A federal court has ruled in favor of Aliso Viejo (California)-based Fax.com in a dispute over the federal statute that bars sending mass, unsolicited faxes, the company said. Two years ago, Missouri sued Fax.com and another broadcast-fax advertising service that has since gone out of business for violations of the 1991 Telephone Consumer Protection Act." Missouri's Attorney General plans to appeal.
What? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What? (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.fax.com/Customer_support/contact.asp
fax: 949-916-8629
Re:What? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What? (Score:2)
Where's the ruling? (Score:2)
So the Telephone Consumer Protection Act is unconstitutional, but the Digital Millenium Copyright Act isn't? I guess we have to rename the DMCA to the Digital Millenium Consumer Act. Then maybe it'll be deemed unconstitutional...
Without seeing the actual ruling of course it's hard to say how serious I am. I'm assuming the TCPA was thrown out due to free speech issues...
Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:5, Insightful)
Unsolicited physical mail does me relatively little harm. It does take a bit of time to sort through it, but the USPS won't toss out my VISA bill because the annoying weekly flyer has taken up the last of my mailbox space.
In contrast, I've lost email because spam filled a partition. (Some broken mailer hit me with 20+ copies of a multimegabyte file in less than an hour.) My fax machine, being the cheapest I could find since I was mostly interested in outgoing faxes, uses a plastic strip that can only handle a relative handful of pages. Every junk fax that I receive significantly increases the risk that an important fax will be cut off.
If the courts rule that it's legal to steal from me, the results are obvious and inevitable. No more fax, no more junk mail, no answering machine (same legal logic applies), no telephone. You want to talk to me, you'll do it just like the Founding Fathers expected - you'll send a letter or you'll visit me in person because the cost of me offering any alternative is too high.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1, Interesting)
That's absurdly twisted logic. That's like saying that simply having a cell phone means that you are volunteering to receive calls at your expense from anyone that wants to sell you something.
No, it like saying that by looking at your caller ID and answering the phone you are volunteering to receive calls at your expense from anyone that wants to sell you something.
My having an e-mail address is not an invitation for random people to contact me.
Your setting up a server to accept emails from random email addresses is... It's no different from a store owner suing people for trespassing just because they offer to sell him something. The store owner can tell that person to leave, and if the person doesn't leave, then it's trespassing, but the store owner is implicitly allowing anyone to enter the store. S/he can explicitly revoke that implicit permission, but not retroactively.
It is so that people and companies can reply to me when I contact them.
You can't force people to read your mind. That's what you're asking for.
If I choose to post it on a web page about turkey vulture watching, then I am inviting contacts from people about that particular subject -- and no other.
And if you wrote that on your web page, and the person sending you the email read it, then you have a point. Otherwise you're talking about mind reading again.
And how do you propose doing that when the spammers forge the from address and use subjects that sound legitimate?
I've never - not once - had a spammer forge a from address to an address of a friend or a company with which I wanted to receive mail. If a spammer did such a thing, then you'd have a case that that spammer was knowingly trespassing on your system. But I've never heard of such a case.
I already block blind-copied mail from untrusted senders, all mail from China, Brazil, Korea, and Taiwan. I have a huge list of keywords from the subject and body that get blocked. I use mail-forwarding accounts so that I can give out different addresses based on the level of trust I have for the entity I'm giving the address to. I then filter accordingly. And I still get spam.
That doesn't change the fact that every single one of those pieces of spam were accepted by your computer.
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Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:2)
So I'm supposed to know any and all telephone numbers from which anyone I may wish to talk with may call from? How am I supposed to know whether the "Unknown Caller" is a friend in trouble or a telemarketer?
That's not my problem. It's your problem. By making a law against it you force me to pay my tax money to solve your problem? Sorry, I'm not willing to do that. Figure out your own solution.
Absolutely untrue. My e-mail address is is private property like my home address. It is not like a public store. When I provide the address of my home, it does not mean that anyone is welcome to step inside, uninvited, to sell something to me.
No, but it does mean that anyone is welcome to come up to your front porch and knock on your door. If they're selling something, and you don't want it, you can't sue them for trespassing, even though they are standing on your property.
No, what I am asking for is legislation that forces everyone's e-mail address to be treated the way that I described. Besides, you don't need to be a mind reader to figure out that people don't want you stealing their time, bandwidth, and storage for your ads.
I disagree. I think you do.
Nor did I. But the addresses are forged, nonetheless, making it impossible for me to block mail from a given spammer. If Investigations2002@yahoo.com sends me spam and I block it that sender, the same low-life will send something else "from" michelle92348@aol.com next time.
I have no problem with an opt out system where you tell the spammer to stop emailing you, and they are required by law to comply. But you're talking about having an opt-in only system, and I'm saying that that opt-in is already available to you. Simply don't accept emails from those people you haven't opted to receive email from.
That's like arguing that you weren't trespassing because the door opened when you turned the knob.
No. There is a key difference. Without a door, private property is still private property. The purpose of a door is to keep people out. The purpose of an email server, on the other hand, is to let people in. There is a well established protocol, and the basis of that protocol is that anyone can email anyone else for any reason without permission. The well established protocol for private property is that you must knock on the door, and then only enter if you have permission.
The bottom line is that I don't want my tax money spent protecting you from yourself. If you want random pseudonymous people putting arbitrary files on your machine, be my guest, but don't cry to me when they put on your machine files which you don't want.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
Gee, that's funny, my mail server connection message clearly says that I don't wish to receive any unsolicited email at all. It's literally the same thing as putting a 'No solictitation' sign up, and, yes, you can arrest solictors for trespassing the second they step on your property if you have one of those signs up, no warning required, because you already told them to leave.
Explain to me how it's not trespassing to do the same thing to a mail server.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:2)
Explain to me how it's not trespassing to do the same thing to a mail server.
Well, first of all, it's not "trespassing" because nothing has physically entered your property. Besides, "trespassing" is illegal. We don't need to pass any new laws for that.
But I assume you want to know why it's not something equally illegal. That's because your "sign" is not in a place where it is easily read by the "trespasser". If you put a "No solicitors" sign on your back door in 1 inch high type, that doesn't allow you to arrest solicitors who come to your front door and have no reasonable expectation of seeing the sign.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:2, Interesting)
If you want to argue there's an implict authorization when connecting to an open port, yes, there is, just like there is to walk up to a door and knock on it. But I stuck a sign on the door that said 'come in if you're not selling something', and given my own terms for accessing that computer on that port, and I've clearly printed them out where everyone who connects can see them.
It's not my fault if your software decided to not inform you of these condition. You're in charge of your computer, you shouldn't be using software that hides the fact I'm denying you permission to enter. Your problem, not mine.
What you basically claim is there is no way to tell someone they're illegally in a computer system, and that is clearly legally nonsensical. People have to make a reasonable effort to check if they're trespassing or not. You can't walk up to a door past a sign telling you not to enter and then claim you 'weren't looking that way'.
It's certainly not an excuse to trespass because you hired a guide who stood in front of the sign so you couldn't see it. Your software is an agent of you, and what it does on your command, you do.
The mere fact you continued communications with me shows you got the message. I communicated with you over the only channel possible, and you managed to read the 200- at the start of my message and missed the rest of it. Your problem, not mine.
I've made the notice as large and noticable as I can. And as an additional courtesy, I informed the DMA, who is running a list washing service, I don't want any such email. I have it next to my email address on various web pages. I've made a good faith effort to notify people that I do not give them permission to connect to my machine for the purposes of sending me unsolicted bulk email, and spammers are not making any effort what-so-ever to check if I have or not. They are simply walking onto my computer and using it for whatever purposes they see fit.
And that, folks, is deliberate negligence at the minimum. And negligence on someone's part that leads to a crime is not a defense in any court of law, especially if the 'negligence' suspiciously resulted in profit.
And that makes it trespassing, plain and simple, or the computer equivilent, often referred to as 'hacking'.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
If you want to argue there's an implict authorization when connecting to an open port, yes, there is, just like there is to walk up to a door and knock on it. But I stuck a sign on the door that said 'come in if you're not selling something', and given my own terms for accessing that computer on that port, and I've clearly printed them out where everyone who connects can see them.
You did not stick a sign on the door that said "come in if you're not selling something". That's not how the SMTP protocol works.
It's not my fault if your software decided to not inform you of these condition. You're in charge of your computer, you shouldn't be using software that hides the fact I'm denying you permission to enter. Your problem, not mine.
I guess you support click-through licenses as well. Actually, click-through licenses that you don't even have to click on, merely that some computer somewhere has the capibility of possibly showing to you.
What you basically claim is there is no way to tell someone they're illegally in a computer system, and that is clearly legally nonsensical. People have to make a reasonable effort to check if they're trespassing or not. You can't walk up to a door past a sign telling you not to enter and then claim you 'weren't looking that way'.
No, I claim there is no way to tell someone using the SMTP protocol that they're illegally sending email. Reading the HELO line is not reasonable. No one does that.
It's certainly not an excuse to trespass because you hired a guide who stood in front of the sign so you couldn't see it. Your software is an agent of you, and what it does on your command, you do.
By the same token so is your software, so when your software accepts the email I guess you have accepted it. But that's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying the SMTP protocol is well defined, and it is expected that computers will be the ones connecting, and it's expected that unacceptable emails will be rejected.
The mere fact you continued communications with me shows you got the message.
No, it shows that my computer got the message. Actually, it doesn't even show that. It shows that my computer received the first 4 characters of the message.
And that makes it trespassing, plain and simple, or the computer equivilent, often referred to as 'hacking'.
So you agree that we don't need any new laws, then?
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:2)
It's not my fault if your software decided to not inform you of these condition. You're in charge of your computer, you shouldn't be using software that hides the fact I'm denying you permission to enter. Your problem, not mine.
I used that exact same logic to stop a large email address harvester from wailing on my college's online phonebook. It was a Perl script that clearly displayed the terms of use before accepting a request. One day I noticed that the CPU usage on that server was pegged, and our 56KB link was saturated. Turns out this company was sending programmatic searches to that web page. I called their domain contact, and asked him what they thought they were doing. He said he was just collecting email addresses, and there was nothing we could or would do to stop it. I asked if he'd seen our terms of use - he said, "What terms of use?" I said, "The ones listed at the top of every request your program is making that says this service can only be used by individuals, among other things." Within 10 seconds, our 56K was clear and the requests stopped. I checked logs for further issues from this site, and received none. I also had them send me registered mail from their company president stating that all email addresses obtained from our site had been deleted. They didn't like it, but I had the web logs to prove they'd messed up bigtime.
Re:Spam is crap. Crap sucks. (Score:1)
Correct. The thought of the luddites in DC passing new laws makes me cringe. What we need is a clarification of existing laws. The letter of TCPA's junk fax provision actually already covers any computer with a printer attached. It would be trivial to extend the TCPA to cover junk email as well as junk fax.
The same issues that led to the regulation of junk fax apply to junk email as well. Tragedy of the commons, devaluation of a communications medium, the shifting of distribution costs from senders to receivers, the load on the infrastructure, etc, etc.
It would be possible to regulate junk email in the same way that other classical computer abuses (unauthorized use/access) have been regulated, but I still think the TCPA is the right tool for the job.
Oh, and about trespass... "One of AOL's competitors, CompuServe, also took Wallace and his spam factory to court. In CompuServe, Inc. v. Cyber Promotions, Inc., No. C2-96-1070 (S.D. Ohio, Feb 3, 1997) the court, in essence, took the America Online case one step further. The U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Ohio held that not only can CompuServe exclude Cyber Promotions from its property, but when Cyber Promotions insists on making use of CompuServe's resources after being instructed to stop, such further actions constitute trespass to chattels." - from http://www.loundy.com/CDLB/Cyberpromo.html (emphasis mine)
That's more commonly written as "trespass OF chattel," but same difference. Like it or not, spam is trespass. The legal precedent was set years ago.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
I didn't say it did as part of any protocol. No trespassing signs aren't required to follow any standard, certainly not one that doesn't even exist. If you want, you can argue that it shouldn't only be in english, but as most spam I get is in english, I think it's reasonable assumption they can read it.
I guess you support click-through licenses as well. Actually, click-through licenses that you don't even have to click on, merely that some computer somewhere has the capability of possibly showing to you.
Sure. Click-though licenses are fine. Of course, they aren't fine after you've already purchased the software, as there is no possible way you could see them then, and once you've made the purchase the seller can't modify it, but they're certainly fine as a condition of downloading the software off the internet.
Of course, this is all a strawman, anyway, as you aren't legally required to get someone's permission before running software, you're allowed to do as part of copyright law, whereas you do need to get someone's permission to use their property.
No, I claim there is no way to tell someone using the SMTP protocol that they're illegally sending email. Reading the HELO line is not reasonable. No one does that.
It doesn't matter if it's 'unreasonable' or 'no one does that'. It is the only channel of communication they have chosen to open up to me.
Try covering up your ears, closing your eyes, and walking around yelling 'I can't hear you' while on someone else's property. See how far that gets you. The 'Yes, there were signs, but my actions made it impossible to see them' defense won't get you too far. Like I've said, you at least have to make the attempt to communicate with me.
And, BTW, if you can't communicate at all, then you really have no business screwing around in a place you only have implict permission to be there in the first place. The whole concept of trespassing laws are that, if someone wants you to leave, they'll put up a sign or tell you. If you have choosen to create a situtation where you cannot possibly receive their revokation of permission, than you don't really have implied permission to be there in the first place, do you?
By the same token so is your software, so when your software accepts the email I guess you have accepted it. But that's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying the SMTP protocol is well defined, and it is expected that computers will be the ones connecting, and it's expected that unacceptable emails will be rejected.
No, my software has simply decided not to use force to eject them from where they are trespassing. If some kids come in my yard and I yell for them to leave then don't take any other action, they're still trespassing.
No, it shows that my computer got the message. Actually, it doesn't even show that. It shows that my computer received the first 4 characters of the message.
Nope. You had to have received the newline character to know I was finished sending.
So you agree that we don't need any new laws, then?
That never was the discussion. The discussion was whether or not it was already illegal.
And even if it, as I contend, is already illegal, that doesn't mean we shouldn't come up with explict laws covering this exact situtation.
Re:Spam is crap. Crap sucks. (Score:2)
The U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Ohio held that not only can CompuServe exclude Cyber Promotions from its property, but when Cyber Promotions insists on making use of CompuServe's resources after being instructed to stop, such further actions constitute trespass to chattels.
That's more commonly written as "trespass OF chattel," but same difference. Like it or not, spam is trespass. The legal precedent was set years ago.
Spam can be trespass, just like email can be trespass, and TCP connections can be trespass. In the case where someone has been explicitly told not to send any further email, we don't have any disagreement. That can be, should be, and probably already is, illegal.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
People have to make a reasonable effort to check if they're trespassing or not.
Reading the HELO line is not reasonable.
It doesn't matter if it's 'unreasonable' or 'no one does that'.
Make up your mind.
If my HELO line says "You may not send me email if your name is David", and your name is David, and you send me email, should I be able to sue you?
Nope. You had to have received the newline character to know I was finished sending.
I don't have to know you were finished sending.
That never was the discussion. The discussion was whether or not it was already illegal.
The original discussion was that it was "theft".
And even if it, as I contend, is already illegal, that doesn't mean we shouldn't come up with explict laws covering this exact situtation.
I really don't see how you can say it's illegal, but I'll have to let that one go. Are you saying that judges should interpret it this way, or that they actually do?
In any case, I disagree. Spam, in and of itself, is not, and should not be, illegal.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:2)
Heard of RFCs? SMTP is defined by one. It could be superceded with Terms of use flags dictating wither or not spam is allowed. For non compliant MTAs, you SMTP server would hols the message and reply with a terms of service email, which must be replyed to for the orignial meggage to be delivered. We just have to superceed one little RFC, and then we can sue spammers for breach of contract, or, if they're using an invalid address, thier crap falls in the bit bucket after a holding time. Someone who replys to the TOS email could be added to a whitelist for some time to minize inconvienace. This way we don't break anything, and have solid leagel grounds on which to sue spammers.
This idea is placed in the public domain, please use it, quote it and forward it to the IETF.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:2, Interesting)
I put 'unreasonable' in quotes for a reason. it's not unreasonable, you just say it is. I say it isn't.
As I've pointed out, if there is no 'reasonable' way to communicate with you, you can't use 'implict' permission as an argument. Oh, but you snipped that.
I will repeat: The entire concept of trespassing laws, and indeed consent in general, is that you can generally assume that you can do something to someone else, or their property, unless they tell you not to. If they cannot tell you not to do something, consent automatically does not exist, even if it's normally implied by something else they do.
Hence the reason you cannot move unconcious people, even if they're holding a bus ticket, and hence the reason you cannot send UBE while laughing manically because they have no way to tell you to stop. People who cannot revoke consent cannot be assumed to have given consent.
If my HELO line says "You may not send me email if your name is David", and your name is David, and you send me email, should I be able to sue you?
While I don't know anyone named 'David', most people have much longer names then that, I don't see why not in principle. I can put just as unreasonable restrictions up on no trespassing signs in the real world. (Barring, of course, violation of various civil rights statures, but it's not illegal to discriminate on basis of name, nor on intended purpose of visit.)
I don't have to know you were finished sending.
Sure you did. That's how the standard works. The defination of a reply is a random amount, or none, of 'xxx- message[CR]' followed by 'xxx message[CR]'. The carriage return is part of the reply, if you don't get it, you can't continue yet.
And this is a rather idiotic argument. I can show in any court of law that, due to the way the internet works, the entire reply was sent as one packet and you couldn't have received just part of it, otherwise the CRC would have failed and you would have asked for a retry. Even if, though some crazy router, it got broken up that small, you would have noticed something wrong when I sent you the next packet and the TCP header had the wrong sequence number. TCP packets don't just disappear on the internet.
The original discussion was that it was "theft".
The difference is? I don't seen anyone talking about it in terms of anything other than trespass of chattel (Which is theft.), or theft of computer resources. No one here is calling it rape or jaywalking.
I really don't see how you can say it's illegal, but I'll have to let that one go. Are you saying that judges should interpret it this way, or that they actually do?
No. It's theft of something that's worth about 3 cents. No one gets arrested for that.
But, of course, there are tens of thousands of people doing it and stealing 3 cents billions of times.
The problem is that there is no class action theft charge. The government can't charge someone with stealing 3 cents a lot of time, they have to charge each time seperately, and that's, obviously, a horrible waste of resources.
In any case, I disagree. Spam, in and of itself, is not, and should not be, illegal.
Why not? If AOL has the right to say they do not want Cyberpromotions on their servers, why do I not have the right to say I don't want Alan Ralsky on mine?
All your objections so far have been technical. What if there was simply a national 'do not email without receiving consent' list that everyone could check? Or a new SMTP standard that gave a response that said the same thing. (And if the client did not claim it understand the response, it disconnected them.)
Or how about a law making it illegal to fake an email address? (With an obvious exception for @example.com, which is reserved. People who want to be 'anonymous' could use that.)
Or make it illegal to email more than 10 people at once without receiving explict consent. That's pretty reasonable. You can assume consent on 10, but once you get above that you have to actually have it. Just like you can assume you can walk up to someone's door, but you can't throw a party on their front lawn because they're out of town and can't tell you to leave.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
People who cannot revoke consent cannot be assumed to have given consent.
So you're not legally allowed to email me, because I have not consented to that?
If my HELO line says "You may not send me email if your name is David", and your name is David, and you send me email, should I be able to sue you?
While I don't know anyone named 'David', most people have much longer names then that, I don't see why not in principle.
You don't see why not in principle? On that note, I think I'll have to end this discussion. You're being completely ridiculous.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
If I have a sign on my front porch that says "You may not enter if you work for Walmart.", and you work for Walmart, and you enter anyway, should I be able to have you arrested for trespassing?
Why don't you try that and we'll find out?
And it's just as well that you're quitting, you were about to seriously piss me off because you kept leaving out half of my messages, apparently because you couldn't think of a good reply.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
If I have a sign on my front porch that says "You may not enter if you work for Walmart.", and you work for Walmart, and you enter anyway, should I be able to have you arrested for trespassing?
If that sign was in a place where it was reasonable for me to see it (and there were no reasonable justifications, such as an apparent emergency), then yes (though not by federal law).
Why don't you try that and we'll find out?
I don't work for WalMart. Besides, I agree with you, in the case where the lack of permission is explicit and known by both parties.
And it's just as well that you're quitting, you were about to seriously piss me off because you kept leaving out half of my messages, apparently because you couldn't think of a good reply.
I apologise for that. In most cases it was because a particular point you were making was something that I either agreed with or disagreed with as a pure matter of opinion. I figured replying with "I diagree" would be as bad if not worse.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:2)
To use the trespassing analogy that's been going on here, it's like having the "no salesmen" sign in the front, but inviting a salesman friend of yours over for supper.
But it's not. It's like having the sign hidden in your mailbox. Very few people actually look at the HELO line.
Just to toss my 2 cents into this long-gone discussion - if my name was David and I had no reason to be contacting you, then I think that this would be a perfectly reasonable situation.
Even spammers have a reason to contact you.
If I was contacting you at your implicit request - replying to an e-mail, or contacting you because of an item on your website ("any questions? Contact...") - then whatever was in the HELO would be over-ridden.
This was the point I was trying to make with the original poster. However, I would use the term "implicit permission" rather than "implicit request". I have not implied a request for an email from you, but I have implied permission.
In the case of directly obtained email addresses, why would I give you my email address if I didn't want you to email me? In the case of indirectly obtained email addresses, it could be argued that the person giving out the email address is breaking an implicit confidentiality agreement, but the person receiving the email address could certainly argue that s/he thought the person owning the email address had made a request to receive spam.
Personally, I get very little email that I have not directly (though inadvertantly) given permission for. Most of my spam is from companies whose service I have signed up for (and which I'm too lazy to bother blocking, besides, it lets me know whether my mail server is up and working). The little spam I get which I have not directly given permission for is generally harvested from websites. By publishing my email address on a public website, I feel I have implicitly given permission to receive spam at that email address. If it became a problem I could simply have a web form to receive private communications from slashdotters, or I could have an autoreply system with a randomly generated reply address, or I could set up a PHP script which gives everyone who asks for my address a different address. The number of technical solutions is astounding, and if receiving spam truly cost me a significant amount of time or money, I'd implement them.
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Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
You have no understanding of law at all, do you?
I probably have a better understanding of law than you.
Computer Trespass [google.com] has been illegal for years at both the state and local level. Trespass to chattels is a form of trespassing and has been recognized as such by the courts when applied to mail servers. If you don't understand the law, then don't make pronouncements about it.
I agree that I was technically incorrect, because trespass to chattels is a form of "trespassing", and I implied that all trespassing requires physical entering of property (I wasn't including "trespass to chattels", but you're correct that I should have). However, I still contend that spam, in and of itself, is not "trespassing", by any definition, including "trespass to chattels".
The name of my domain is "anti-spam.org." How much clearer can I make it than that?
I don't think you can show that the spammer necessarily read your domain name and understood that it meant that you don't want to receive spam. If you think it does, feel free to take them to court.
I'm really starting to get the feeling that you are a spammer.
I'm not a spammer. I sent a single spam (advertising some software I had written) to about 30 email addresses that I found on usenet once. I was 15 or so, it was 1993 or so, and I don't think the term spam was even coined at the time. In any case, I was quickly flamed, realized my mistake, and I never sent another spam again in my life.
People cannot be reasonably expected to have the pre-cognition to know the e-mail addresses of every person or business that they might wish to receive mail from.
Right... Most people want to be able to receive unsolicited emails... So?
If spammers can't be expected to see a "sign" that a mail server sends out as a message, then there is no place to put up a "no solicitation" sign on a domain.
I never suggested putting up a "no solicitation" sign.
I'm starting to feel like I'm being suckered by a well-done troll...
I sincerely hold the viewpoints I express. I don't think there should be a law against spam. I am far from alone in that belief. Perhaps I am a bit rare in that I am willing to stand up for that belief, even if it means that I am unfairly labelled a troll and a spammer because of them.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:2)
Uh-huh
Still the discussion, although starting to get a little stale and repititious, is sort of interesting. It's sort of like the discussions on sites between creationists and evolutionists.
*Dear reader, please do not start up with that issue, this was just an example.*
BTW, my
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Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
The courts have not always agreed with your interpretation of the law. In additions to the trespass to chattels, there is the legal definition of "computer trespass".
I need to be clear here. My interpretation is that spam is not trespass per se. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't. I don't think any court has ever ruled that spam is trespass (federally) per se. If you happen to have a link which shows otherwise, I'd love to see it. And I'm not trying to get technical about the definition of spam. Spam is unsolicited commercial email (or some other similar definition).
Wrong. If I send out my resume with my e-mail address on it, replies are not "unsolicited" yet I did not always know in advance the addresses from which they would come. If I post a question on a newsgroup and include my e-mail address, I am soliciting answers from strangers, not agreeing to accept unsolicited advertisements.
Fair enough...
I am unfairly labelled a troll and a spammer because of them.
I didn't label you either. I expressed my suspicions, but didn't label you anything.
I didn't mean to imply that you did. I have been labelled as such by others though (I received a -1 troll vote, and I have received multiple emails in my inbox accusing me of being a spammer).
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
Fair enough...
Interesting. Far as I can tell, every single bit of spam that I have received has come as a result of an email address posted in a public place (newsgroups, domain registration data, etc). I have never agreed to accept spam.
You stated in another message that "you don't have a natural right to receive e-mail without receiving spam." Are you suggesting that a person who chooses to receive any email at all has an obligation to receive spam?
I have no more obligation to accept spam than I have to allow strangers into my house. Running an SMTP server is no more an invitation to spam than leaving my door open is an invitation to sit on my couch. Spammers, senders of unsolicited bulk email, assume that they are welcome. They are not. I haven't the resources to tell every one of them to bugger off (and never mind the fact that many of them switch identities with every spam anyhow).
It just boggles me that, in light of all this, you think it unreasonable to pass a law that enables me to take action against trespassing spammers.
As far as spam on MSN - just wait. Perhaps the spammers haven't started abusing it yet, but they will. They will spam people at random, MSN will yank their accounts, and they will create new accounts and start over. Guaranteed. It's only a matter of time. MSN might take action against one or two major spammers, but it won't make a dent in the total volume of spam on their service. Count on it. Enjoy the peace while it lasts.
Why am I so certain? Because spamming costs next to nothing, so spammers stand to profit from even the tiny rate of return they get, and there is no significant obstacle standing in their way (AUP/TOS is less than significant). It's a given. It's just a matter of time. I wonder, do you also think that as a user of that service you have no right to a spam-free experience with it?
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
Interesting. Far as I can tell, every single bit of spam that I have received has come as a result of an email address posted in a public place (newsgroups, domain registration data, etc). I have never agreed to accept spam.
Right. But you can't prove (and in fact it's probably not the case most of the time) that the emails were collected by the same people sending the spam. For all you know, these emails were provided to the spammers as "opt-in lists".
You stated in another message that "you don't have a natural right to receive e-mail without receiving spam." Are you suggesting that a person who chooses to receive any email at all has an obligation to receive spam?
I'm saying that a person who receives email does not deserve government protection against spam. I'm certainly not saying that they have an "obligation" to receive spam, but spam is a known side effect of releasing one's email address out to the public. When I weigh the expense of finding and prosecuting spammers, and the restrictions on personal freedom of anti-spam laws, against the cost of technological and contractual solutions which virtually eliminate spam, I believe that it is better if we fight spam technologically and/or contractually.
I have no more obligation to accept spam than I have to allow strangers into my house. Running an SMTP server is no more an invitation to spam than leaving my door open is an invitation to sit on my couch. Spammers, senders of unsolicited bulk email, assume that they are welcome. They are not. I haven't the resources to tell every one of them to bugger off (and never mind the fact that many of them switch identities with every spam anyhow).
I just don't accept that analogy. I've discussed my reasons over and over again, but it's apparently an issue where we won't reach an agreement.
It just boggles me that, in light of all this, you think it unreasonable to pass a law that enables me to take action against trespassing spammers.
There already is a law against trespassing spammers. It's the law against trespass.
As far as spam on MSN - just wait. Perhaps the spammers haven't started abusing it yet, but they will.
They can't. It is technologically impossible to spam me using MSN Messenger.
I've snipped the rest of your comment without replying to it, because it relies on being able to spam through MSN messenger.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:2)
I figured out a solution: I'm voting for Congressional representatives that recognize junk e-mail, fax, etc. as theft and pass legislation against it. Then they will spend tax dollars, including your, prosecuting those who violate the law. Your taxes just aren't so precious that the government should turn a blind eye to spam.
Unfortunately your "solution" will not succeed, and I will fight against it.
So what? The mail server is inside my house. I don't want random people entering my house physically or electronically.
Then don't let random people enter your house electronically! How hard is that? It's really simple. Block incoming connections.
And my mail server is my private property. This is an established legal fact and one recognized by numerous state laws and court cases. If you want to read, then search for "trespass to chattels" and learn about it. AOL has won lawsuits against several spammers based on that legal principle.
So why do we need a new law? Could it be because "trespass to chattels" requires intentional infliction of harm?
Protecting people from spammers who will, given enough time, consume all available bandwidth and storage on the net, is not protecting people from themselves.
Hyperbole.
It's protecting them against those who would exploit weaknesses in the SMTP protocol to force their almost universally unwanted e-mail on others. You also ignore the fact that 99%+ of the people on the net don't run their own mail servers.
Therefore 99%+ of the people on the net do not have their personal property invaded, even electronically, by your definition.
ISPs are choking under the onslaught of spam.
Nonsense.
They are having to pay for more hardware, bandwidth, and personnel to deal with the spam. Those costs are all passed on to all of their subscribers. And that's a tax, too. Just not one imposed by the government.
99.9999% of the costs of spam are the costs of dealing with the legal issues surrounding it. Besides, I don't have a problem with "taxes" that are optional payments for a service. If email costs so much money, then ISPs should start charging to accept email. I would have no problem with that.
If you can't afford the fraction of a cent that it would cost out of your taxes to prosecute spammers, then you certainly can't afford to pay Verio a premium every month to cover their spam-associated costs.
A technical solution to spam would be 10,000,000 times cheaper than a legal solution. If the cost of the solution is cheaper than the cost of not solving the problem, then it will happen.
Normal people need to provide e-mail addresses to friends, colleagues, businesses, and potential employers. They don't know the addresses of everyone that might write to them (not spam them) and can't afford the time to create filters that only let a predefined list of people reach them. Nor do they want to risk bouncing important e-mails. It's more important to pass legislation that protects the vast majority of the public than it is to let you hoarde your pennies and not pay taxes.
I don't receive any spam on MSN messenger, yet I give my MSN messenger address out freely to friends, colleagues, businesses, and potential employers. Seems to me that what we need is a better protocol, not better laws. The laws aren't going to change anything anyway: if you don't know the identity of the sender, you can't exactly sue him/her, can you?
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:2)
Spammers are starting to send IM spam now, you will at some point get MSN IM spam, if you think otherwise you're ignorant.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
Spammers are starting to send IM spam now, you will at some point get MSN IM spam, if you think otherwise you're ignorant.
Since MSN IMs are opt-in, I have to say that you're 100% without a doubt wrong.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:2)
Mouse over the link before you mod me a troll
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
When Bob42@hotmail.com wants to message you, how will you know if he is someone that wants to talk to you, or someone that wants to sell you "VIDEOS OF HOT NAKED CUMSLUTS, NO CREDIT CARD REQUIRED! CLICK HERE NOW! [dead.link]"?
Three things: 1) At that point, I will turn that feature off, and only accept IMs from addresses I explicitly add to my allow list. 2) I know that bob42@hotmail.com isn't someone that I've solicited IMs from. and 3) Spam through MSN Messenger is already illegal, because you explicitly agree to the terms of service when you sign up for an account.
Email spam is already illegal too. (Score:1)
The same is true for email spam from pretty much every ISP in the western world (maybe you missed my earlier message about your useless 'protocol' analogy?). By the looks of things, China is going to catch up soon. The former Soviet Union I'm not so sure about.
The AUP/TOS approach is ultimately ineffective because spammers know that ISPs won't bother to actually do anything meaningful about it. The key thing about good anti-spam legislation is that it provides the spam recipient with the ability to take action against the spammer.
Re:Email spam is already illegal too. (Score:1)
The AUP/TOS approach is ultimately ineffective because spammers know that ISPs won't bother to actually do anything meaningful about it.
Whereas Microsoft will.
The key thing about good anti-spam legislation is that it provides the spam recipient with the ability to take action against the spammer.
The key thing wrong with that is that we have this thing called freedom of speech. If you take the ISPs out of the picture, what exactly is it that you are legislating? Advertising of interstate commerce, I guess. I don't know, it just seems too much of a hacked up solution where there are such easy technical ones available.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
OMG. This is the funniest comment I've ever read. So you do admit spam is illegal. If you want to disagree, show me a single ISP in the US that doesn't say you can't send UBE in their AUP. (Granted, some don't enforce it, but that's irrelevent.)
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
If you want to disagree, show me a single ISP in the US that doesn't say you can't send UBE in their AUP. (Granted, some don't enforce it, but that's irrelevent.)
Why does the ISP need to be in the US? Most spam doesn't come from the US. The point is that everyone using MSN Messenger agrees to the TOS, and Microsoft will enforce it.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
The idea that 'most spam comes from outside the US' is mostly a myth. Some does, but by far the most common route is sent from the US, routed though Asia, and then to where the email address is, be it the US or elsewhere.
And that doesn't change the fact that, hey, spam is now apparently illegal in the USA, at least if it's sent from here.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
ISPs are choking under the onslaught of spam.
Nonsense.
You think so? Then read this.
So the first known instance of junk mail shutting down a major ISP wasn't even caused by junk mail, it was caused by a deliberate denial-of-service attack.
Like the physical house, the electronic house is not open to the public just because the door wasn't bolted. Stick with the analogy.
This is not a case of the door not being bolted. This is a case of the person knocking on the door and you opening it.
How hard is that? It's really simple. Block incoming connections.
Which ones? Tell me oh wizard of e-mail. If you want to be able to freely receive mail from friends, colleagues, businesses you have contacted, potential employers, etc., it's impossible (not "difficult", "hard", or "tough") to block 100% of the spam.
Agreed. But you don't have a natural right to receive e-mail without receiving spam. When I suggested you block incoming connections, I meant all incoming connections.
If it's worth my time and money, I'll get subpeonas to find out who owns "www.miracle-diet.com" or who was connected on 24.128.139.28 on Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:20:05 -0500 EST. Plus, if it was treated as a criminal offense, law enforcement could get the info in a jiffy.
Good enough for some spam, but this will just cause spammers to use IP addresses in other countries, or anonymous ISPs (unless you want us to make that illegal too).
By the way, I have helped extensively in the development of a successful, commercial anti-spam solution employed by businesses and ISPs. I know all too well that it is impossible to block all of the spam without also blocking legitimate e-mail.
Depends on your definition of spam and legitimate e-mail. In the case where you need to be able to accept legitimate e-mail from automated senders at arbitrary e-mail addresses, I agree. But this is a rare requirement, in fact, I'd suggest that the requirement to accept e-mail at all is never set in stone.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
Not true. The article said (and you quoted):
"one of the first known instances of junk mail shutting down a major ISP."
You don't believe everything you read, do you? Certainly not everything implied but not directly stated in what you read?
There are tough laws to prosecute those who mount DoS attacks while there are few laws to use against those who spam. I'll leave it up to you to figure out why someone (probably in AT&T's legal department) "believed [it] to have been part of a denial-of-service attack."
Look, I'm not going to say definitively that the shutdown was not caused by spam, but there is certainly no evidence of that from the article you gave, except for a conclusion drawn by the author which was not backed up in any way.
Not true. When I get home, there is spam on my server -- despite my attempts to lock it out with multiple filters, firewall rules, etc. I did not 'open the door'. In fact, I made a good faith effort to bar the unwanted intrusion.
I just can't agree with that analogy.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
Back when 99% of the 'random pseudonymous people' turned out to be people who were contacting me to discuss something I'd posted somewhere, there was no problem. When spammers started abusing this system for their own gain, a "tragedy of the commons" ensued.
Your "well established protocol" analogy is utterly useless. The well established protocol for email is that it is NOT for the mass distribution of unsolicited email on an opt-out basis. No mind reading necessary. Wake the fsck up and read your own ISP's acceptable usage policy. [verio.net] (whois, traceroute, and ARIN suggest that Verio is your ISP, if I'm wrong you'll have to find the AUP yourself...) The "protocol" hss been in writing ever since spammers started pissing in the pool. Smaller ISPs caught on early, but even giants like MCI were catching on by 1996 [natew.com] and now you'd be hard-pressed to find an ISP that doesn't subscribe to the same "protocol." And if your ISP doesn't, you can expect most of your outgoing mail to bounce.
That said, as a practical matter, the only way to be free from spam is to make it difficult for 'random pseudonymous people' to get into your mailbox. Unless junk email gets regulated like junk fax, I expect whitelisting to catch on in a big way. In a few years, people will simply expect their first email to someone to bounce back with a message that says something like "please reply to this message with the subject line intact, unless you are a spammer." Three-way handshake will be the norm, not the exception.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
Actually the only expense you have with answering the phone call is your time. If it is a collect call or anything just answering the phone does not accept those cost. With email you will have to pay for disk space, bandwidth, etc if you "pick up the phone."
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
With email you will have to pay for disk space, bandwidth, etc if you "pick up the phone."
I don't pay for disk space or for bandwidth when I receive an email.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
Isn't that the crux of the argument though? I don't know I'm downloading spam until I've already paid for it?
No. I don't know I'm downloading troll posts until I've already paid for them. Should that be illegal too? What if I don't like a slashdot article, should I sue slashdot for stealing my time and bandwidth?
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
out of curiosity, why are you taking up the spammers' cause? are you or have you ever been a spammer? (that wasn't really supposed to sound like the house un-american activities commitee questions, at least not too much (c; )or are you just a "free speech" person who feels that free speech protects spam?
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
in this case, spam is something people don't like. if a way could be provided to prevent spam without completely destroying e-mail as we know it, most people would stand behind it.
If a low-cost way could be provided to prevent spam without completely destroying e-mail as we know it, I would stand behind it... I don't believe making laws will do that.
That being said, there is a way to prevent spam without completely destroying e-mail as we know it. Simply not accepting e-mail which is not PGP-signed would pretty much accomplish that. You'd have to have a blacklist or a whitelist, but any person or corporation could spam about once before getting put on blacklists...
are you or have you ever been a spammer?
Once I sent an email about software I was writing to about 30 people I found on a usenet site. It was back in about 1993, and I was about 15. I was quickly flamed and never did it again.
out of curiosity, why are you taking up the spammers' cause?
I have a lot of reasons. One is that I used to run a free homepage site. Of course people would spam their site, and of course I would get blamed for it. I generally shut down the site of the spammer, even though I had no real proof that the person was spamming. For all I know the person was making up the accusation, but my ISP was pissy enough that it wasn't worth the fight. During this whole time I never sent spam. I never even was involved indirectly in the sending of spam. URLs that I hosted just happened to be in the body of the spam. Eventually the anti-spam zealots became annoying enough to my ISP that they dropped me. So that turned me off a lot from the anti-spam mob.
Another reason is that I am very wary of unenforcible laws. They tend to promote enhanced government power in areas the government need not be involved. One of my domain names (which you can probably guess from my email address) is somewhat frequently used as a fake domain from spammers. Again, not involved even indirectly in the sending of spam, I get the nonsense (including threats of lawsuits) from the zealots. All I need is to get dragged into court every time some idiot decides to sue me.
Another reason is that I don't think the government should be involved in regulating the internet at all. When I connect my computer to the internet, that's my problem. If I can't solve it, then I shouldn't connect at all.
That kind of goes along with another reason. Technical solutions to the problem of spam are cheaper than legal ones. Take MSN Messenger. I get no spam messages on that. In fact, it's technically impossible to spam me using MSN Messenger. If I don't explicitly add you to my buddy list, messages from you to me are dropped silently. If it weren't for all these companies that constantly send me things from different email addresses, I could easily set that up with email. But the way the standard is, I have no idea what email address my online banking statements are going to come from. That's a problem, and if spamming becomes illegal it is much less likely to be solved.
So basically my reasons include the practical, the moral, and the irrational. But I really don't consider myself to be taking up the spammer's cause. I don't do anything to actively promote spam. I don't even do anything to actively fight against anti-spam laws. But my feelings on the matter are that if anti-spam zealots would spend 1/100th the time they spend complaining and campaigning on implementing technical solutions, they would be getting virtually no spam right now.
I myself get very little spam. I'd get even less if I actually cared about it. On that note I think it's time to change my slashdot email address...
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
however, looking at caller id for me isn't very useful on my cell phone, because unless the number is recognized from my phone book, my phone still doesn't tell me who someone is, just their number. then i'm presented with a delimma...do i answer it and hope it's a friend, and possibly waste minutes talking to a telemarketer, or do i let it go into voice mail, where if it is someone i know, i'll get billed for the time they took leaving a message, billed for the time it took me to listen to the message, and billed for the time it takes me to return the call. fortuanately, i so far haven't had much trouble with telemarketers on my cell phone. but i face a similar problem on my computer with e-mails. it might be a friend, or it might not be. on the one hand, i risk deleting a friend's e-mail, but on the other, i risk downloading some spam from someone who made the e-mail look like it might be from a friend. in that case i've wasted bandwidth and disk space and it angers me.
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:1)
Re:Spam is theft, theft is legal,... (Score:2)
I guess you're voluntarily allowing me to come over and try to sell you something for a few hours every day, OK?
OK
We Are Discussing Symptoms of a Greater Problem (Score:2)
Corporations are defined as 'people' under the law, thanks to a bizarr and unprecedented court ruling some 80 year ago IIRC. That's right, McDonalds is considered a person, just like you and I, with the same constitutional protections that you and I enjoy.
This is not what the founding fathers intended
If we consider corporations as people, then we can no more ban corporate speech than we can personal speech, which means advertisers can do pretty much anything they like short of yelling 'fire' in a crowded theatre.
The solution is clear. We need to end this stupid and profane notion that corporations are people. They aren't. They are organizations, nothing more, and are entitled to no constitutional protections whatsoever. They exist solely at our sufferance, and if they harm us we should be able to do away with them in relatively short order. Unlike real, physical people corporations do not have a basic right to exist, and it is past time the supreme court overturned that lower court ruling that has led to this mockery of our constitution and our law once and for all.
Determine that corporations and companies are not 'people', but merely organizations, and you can ban corporate speech such as SPAM without any problem whatsoever, and without trampling on the freedom of individual speech in any way.
Re:We Are Discussing Symptoms of a Greater Problem (Score:2)
It was an 1886 decision.
This [adbusters.org] is excellent opinion piece that gives some of the history.
Round II (Score:2, Insightful)
Or, just forward every bit of junk email you get to his/her fax machine via jfax.com or some such. Same difference.
But seriously, this is doubly depressing because I was really hoping that a clueful senator would expand the TCPA to cover junk email some day soon. If the appeal fails I shall weep openly. Advertisers are entitled to burn up my resources when they pay me for the privilege and not a moment sooner.
Re:Round II (Score:2)
This is not not being done based on the content of the message, but being done based on the method.
Cities are allowed to restrict bill boards. Cities are allow to prevent one from painting advertising on street signs. The US Postal service is allowed to prevent me from putting advertising in mailboxes, without paying postage.
Re:Round II (Score:1)
Re:Round II (Score:2)
Fuck those slime (Score:2)
They're stealing 30% of YOUR money.
Stealing 30% of ISP's bandwidth.
Stealing MORE than 50% of YOUR bandwidth.
Causing YOUR ISP prices to rise.
These fucks need to be dealt with. Its amazing to me that the fuckholes in Congress somehow think that free speech doesn't cover p2p/code (i.e., DeCSS or Advanced e-Book Reader), but DOES cover e-mail or fax spamming. When in reality, it should be EXACTLY the reverse.
The way to deal with spam is through extreme means. My ULTIMATE strategy is NOT to accept any e-mail (delete it automatically from the server) from anyone not in your address book. But you can only implement this when you have a thorough address book.
If you can't do that, you have your e-mail prog delete from the server and not download any of the following:
(1) Messages with inflamatory comments in the subject, anything relating to sex, anything relating to good deals, etc.
(2) Block the addresses of all spammers. Whenever possible, also block out the DOMAIN NAME. Sorry, but an iron fist strategy has to be taken whenver possible. If you can afford to block a domain name out (i.e., anything other than @msn, @yahoo, @hotmail, @home, @rr, @linux, etc), you do. But don't just block the domain name out. You also should send a message to the ISP telling them that you're blocking out their ISP and why. They just might fix it.
Re:Fuck those slime (Score:1)
No... tell us how you really feel
SPAM the fuck out of Judge & anthony_dipierro (Score:2)
SPAM the FUCK out of them.
Send them hundreds of 1MB porno files; cheap scam advertisements; get rich quick schemes; penis enlargement plans; etc.
Send them this crap in e-mail and in fax. Send them so much spam in fax and e-mail. Organize a DoS SPAM attack against them.
Here's Dipierro's e-mail and the e-mails of those fucks at FAX.com to SPAM:
b8us93kks@inbox.org
sales@Fax.com
techsupport
faxcaster@Fax.com
consulting@Fax.com
b
graphics@Fax.com
info@Fax.com
bu
As for that fucking judge, he's apparantly too much of a coward to let his e-mail be known. I'll be looking for it. When I find it, I'll post it on
Re:SPAM the fuck out of Judge & anthony_dipier (Score:2)
Re:SPAM the fuck out of Judge & anthony_dipier (Score:1)
Re:SPAM the fuck out of Judge & anthony_dipier (Score:2)
Actually, no. According to the asshole's own decision, there's nothing wrong with SPAM. According to this fuckwit, SPAM's not wrong, its not a problem, not a crime. According to him, its unconstitutional to create laws banning SPAM.
In other words, I could send him a thousand 1MB e-mails, he wouldn't be able to do shit. His own decision says its fine. According to his decision, its not a crime, so I couldn't be fined/prosecuting. And if the fuck decided to file a lawsuit against me, he'd never win because his own decision would be evidence against him.
The idiot here is clearly the "judge". And you for supporting that fuck.
The lines really get blurred... (Score:3, Interesting)
I used to have several digital fax "inboxes", which I used for both business and personal purposes. Some of these were paid accounts, others (most notably OneBox.com [onebox.com]) were free.
In fact, I used to work as a programmer for a company here in Atlanta called Ptek, which in turn has a business unit called Voicecom. Voicecom offered (probably still do) another "all in one inbox" business solution, whereby faxes could be delivered directly into your email inbox for your review. This blurs the lines between what used to be separate communications services, and I expect this trend to continue as people continue to want all their communications tech from a single point of access.
Therefore, I offer the following point: what separates (in this environment, at least) email SPAM/UCE from unsolicited faxes? We've got more anti-spam legislation going into the mix every month it seems; could some of this be leveraged to fight the battle against junk faxes?
For reference, I now receive an average of four to five junk faxes a week on my primary OneBox account. It's annoying
It's Judge Stephen fuckin' Limbaugh! (Score:2)
http://www.osca.state.mo.us/SUP/index.nsf/fd9c1
So that all of you can, if you wish, fax-spam this fuck, here's the fax numbers of the Judge and others in his court:
Stephen N. Limbaugh, Jr., Chief Justice (Chair): (573) 751-7362
Reverend Earl Abel: (816) 921-6078
Mr. Gerard T. Carmody: (314) 259-2020
Mr. Steve Garner: (417) 887-4385
Dr. Peggy Tuter Pearl: (417) 836-7649
Mr. Fred Wilkins: (816) 472-6009
Ms. Mildred Cohn: (314) 367-8195
To promote a just society where we all know how evil our judicial system is, I'll post the Lexus-Nexus TEXT in my next post.
Re:It's Judge Stephen fuckin' Limbaugh! (Score:2)
The actually site is http://web.lexis-nexis.com/universe
Hint:
When someone goes out of there way to provide the community with a little bit of information about the fuck who's saying SPAM's OK, it doesn't hurt to be a little bit polite and perhaps even courteous.
TEXT relating to Decision from LEXUS-NEXUS (Score:2)
All Rights Reserved.
Pennsylvania Law Weekly
March 25, 2002
SECTION: NEWS; Vol. 25; No. 12; Pg. 5
LENGTH: 1801 words
HEADLINE: Phila. Lawyers Persuade District Court to Overturn 'Junk Fax' Ban
Decision may affect cases brought into state courts as well
BYLINE: By Shannon P. Duffy
of the Law Weekly
BODY:
In a victory for a team of Philadelphia lawyers, a federal judge in St. Louis has struck down as unconstitutional a federal law that bans unsolicited advertisements sent by fax, but says nothing about unwanted faxes that don't meet the law's definition of "advertisement."
"There is no rationality behind the government's distinction between unsolicited advertisements and other unsolicited faxes. The recipient still must bear the cost, and the fax can still interfere with the recipient's use of his or her facsimile machine for business purposes," U.S. District Judge Stephen N. Limbaugh wrote in State of Missouri v. American Blast Fax Inc., PICS Case No. 02-0352 (E.D. Miss. March 13, 2002) Limbaugh, J. (25 pages).
The ruling is a victory for a team of lawyers from Cozen O'Connor - Arthur W. Lefco, Michael P. Broadhurst and Julie G. DiSalvio - who represented Fax.com Inc. and challenged the constitutionality of a provision of the Telephone Consumer Protection Act. Limbaugh's ruling may have a ripple effect in Pennsylvania.
Last year, Allegheny County Common Pleas Court Judge R. Stanton Wettick Jr. decided that private causes of action for violations of the TCPA may be brought in state courts.
Wettick's decision. Aronson v. Fax.com, PICS Case No. 01-0441 (C.P. Allegheny Feb. 28, 2001) Wettick, J. (17 pages), allowed a plaintiff who was at the receiving end of several unsolicited "junk faxes" to sue under the federal statute in state court.
The TCPA, Wettick said, gives federal courts exclusive jurisdiction over actions brought by state attorneys general. Jurisdiction over suits brought by private parties is given to the state courts, the Pittsburgh judge said.
Limbaugh's ruling, if upheld by appeals courts, may invalid claims brought under the TCPA in state courts, including Pennsylvania's.
The Missouri case began when Fax.com and American Blast Fax were sued by the Missouri Attorney General's Office for alleged violations of both the TCPA and the Missouri Merchandising Practices Act by allegedly misrepresenting to Missouri consumers that the fax messages were sent in accordance with federal law.
The Cozen team argued that Section 227 of the TCPA violated Fax.com's First Amendment right of freedom of speech. And since the MPA claim was based primarily on the assumption that the conduct violated the TCPA, the team argued that the entire case should be dismissed.
At Limbaugh's invitation, the U.S. Department of Justice intervened in the suit on behalf of the Federal Communications Commission to defend the constitutionality of the TCPA.
The TCPA was enacted in late 1991 as an amendment to the Communications Act of 1934.
The provision prohibiting unsolicited faxes was enacted as part of a larger amendment which included restrictions on telephone solicitations and automatic dialing systems.
Limbaugh found that the proper test for the constitutionality of a statute that limits advertising speech is the one announced by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1980 in Central Hudson Gas & Electric Corp. v. Public Service Commission of New York, 447 U.S. 557, 566, 100 S. Ct. 2343, 2351 (1980).
Under Central Hudson, the court must first determine whether the expression is protected by the First Amendment. For commercial speech to come within that provision, it must concern lawful activity and not be misleading.
The court's next task is to decide whether the asserted governmental interest is "substantial."
If both of the first two inquiries yield positive answers, the court must then decide whether the regulation "directly advances the governmental interest asserted, and whether it is not more extensive than is necessary to serve that interest."
Limbaugh found it was "undisputed" that the unsolicited fax advertisements sent by Fax.com and American Blast Fax are entitled to "a level of protection under the First Amendment."
The key question in the case, Limbaugh found, was whether the government had shown that it has a substantial interest in prohibiting unsolicited fax advertisements.
"A governmental body seeking to sustain a restriction on commercial speech must demonstrate that the harms it recites are real. This burden cannot be satisfied by mere speculation or conjecture," Limbaugh wrote.
"The government has the obligation to demonstrate that it is regulating speech in order to address what is in fact a serious problem."
Limbaugh found that Congress identified two interests in seeking to ban unsolicited fax advertisements - that unsolicited junk faxing shifts advertising costs from the advertiser to the recipient and that unsolicited fax advertising occupies a recipient's facsimile machine so that the recipient cannot use it for his or her desired business purposes.
But Limbaugh found that a review of the law's legislative history showed there was "very little discussion" on the specific provision banning unsolicited fax advertisements.
"It is obvious from the legislative history that Congress did not consider any studies or empirical data estimating the cost of receiving a fax or the number of unsolicited fax advertisements an average business receives in a day before enacting the TCPA," Limbaugh wrote.
Witnesses presented by the government at a hearing before Limbaugh provided estimates for the cost of receiving one fax, and how many faxes their particular business received on average.
But Limbaugh said, "There was no evidence as to the actual cost to a particular business over a month or a year. There were only many long hypothetical examples of how much it could cost a business."
Limbaugh also found that advances in fax technology had significantly ameliorated the effects of unwanted faxes.
"The evidence presented at the hearing showed that it no longer takes several minutes to process a single page fax. The evidence indicated that it could take as much time as 30 seconds, but more often, it takes 3 to 6 seconds to process. The 'sophisticated and expensive' facsimile machines are more common now as compared to 1991, and even a lower-end fax machine can hold in its memory 60 to 80 pages," Limbaugh wrote.
Government lawyers argued that several courts had already found that Congress had a substantial interest in enacting the law.
But Limbaugh found that case law on the issue was "limited."
In 1994, an Oregon federal district judge held in Destination Ventures Ltd. v. FCC, 844 F. Supp. 632 637 (D. Or. 1994), that despite the "absence of statistical data or national surveys addressing this interest," Congress had "legitimately relied upon the testimony from authorities, as well as contemporaneous state laws and media reports."
Limbaugh noted that the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the Oregon ruling but "did not address the question of whether the government has a substantial interest."
A federal judge in the Western District of Texas recently looked at the constitutionality of prohibiting unsolicited fax advertisements in Texas v. American Blastfax, 121 F. Supp. 1162, 1167 (S.D. Ind. 1997), but Limbaugh found that "the court simply quoted the holding of the district court in Destination Ventures" before holding that Blastfax's argument that Congress' hearings were not based on sufficient statistical evidence was unpersuasive.
Limbaugh found that the only other federal court to address the question was the Southern District of Indiana, which upheld the law in Kenro Inc. v. Fax Daily Inc., 962 F. Supp. 1162, 1167 (S.D. Ind. 1997), but never addressed whether or not the government's interest was substantial.
Limbaugh said he agreed that there is "a potential for a serious problem to arise without legislative restrictions on unsolicited faxes."
But beyond that speculation, Limbaugh said, he "questions whether the government has met its burden in showing that there was a substantial interest at the time of enacting the TCPA, and whether there is a substantial interest at the present time."
And even if the government could meet its burden of showing a substantial interest, Limbaugh found that "it cannot satisfy the other parts of the Central Hudson test."
Since the regulation must "directly advance" the governmental interest asserted, Limbaugh found that the government "must demonstrate that its restrictions will in fact alleviate the harm to a material degree."
The TCPA, he found, "does not ban all unsolicited faxes, but rather only advertisements."
As a result, Limbaugh said, fax recipients "can still bear the costs of printing others' messages, even if they strongly oppose the messages' content. The costs of printing political messages, jokes and even some advertisements which are not included within the TCPA's definition, still fall upon the recipient."
And since there was "no evidence" about what type of unsolicited faxes are causing the harm which the government is trying to alleviate, Limbaugh found that it was impossible for the court to assess whether the regulation directly advances the government's interest.
Both the Washington and Florida Attorney General's offices testified that after TCPA was enacted, there was an increase in complaints regarding unsolicited faxes.
That fact, Limbaugh said, calls the law's effectiveness into question because "the court would assume that the complaints would decrease rather than increase."
Limbaugh found that the law also failed to satisfy the last prong of the Central Hudson test.
"The regulation cannot be more extensive than necessary. The law requires there to be a 'fit' between the legislature's ends and the means chosen to accomplish those ends - a fit that is not necessarily perfect, but reasonable; that represents not necessarily the single best disposition but one whose scope is in proportion to the interest served," Limbaugh wrote.
"The availability of other options which can advance the government's asserted interest in a manner less intrusive to First Amendment rights indicates that the regulation is more extensive than necessary."
The Cozen team offered the judge a variety of alternatives, including a national "no-fax" database similar to those being utilized for telephone solicitations.
Limbaugh agreed that the defense's proposed alternative would be less restrictive of the protected speech.
"This alternative would promote the government's interest, and yet be less intrusive to First Amendment rights. Many states have looked at this problem and found less restrictive means than a complete ban on unsolicited fax advertisements," Limbaugh wrote.
Re:TEXT relating to Decision from LEXUS-NEXUS (Score:3, Interesting)
Theft is OK, as long as you only steal a little bit at a time.
Lemme get this straight. There's no law against something, so nobody files complaints with the Attorney General, because they know they're gonna be told "Fuck off, it's legal, if you don't like it, write your Congressman."
So they do what they're told. They write (and fax :) their Congressmen, and Congress passes a law against the something. And then they complain to their Attorney General again, saying "Hey, now it's illegal, do something!"
And that's this fuckweasel's argument for him thinking the law is ineffective? *bitchslap*, HEY, ASSHOLE, is the law against burglary somehow "ineffective" because the police started to get more complaints about break-ins after a law against theft was passed?
As a final insult, after hiking up the skirts of Justice, he then proceeds to ram it home: Upon realizing that federal courts have exclusive jurisdiction over actions bought by state Attorneys-General, and that State courts judge cases brought by private parties, he rules unconstitutional the right of private action.
Congress, in a rare display of clue, anticipating that your State prosecutors (having first told you "fuck off, it's legal") will continue to tell you to fuck off by doing nothing to enforce the new law, includes a private right of action. Congress, in effect, is saying "If your idiot Attorney General can't be bothered to bring charges, you can file suit for $500".
11 years after that, a judge tells you to fuck off, confirming what you already knew - writing your Congressman is a fucking waste of time, even when he does pass the law you require, your Attorney General will still ignore it, and when you try to use it yourself, a judge in the thrall of the Direct Marketing Association will simply throw out the part of the law you need.
This has to be appealed, and it has to be overturned. A man's home is his castle, and theft by conversion cannot be free speech.
This judge is an insult to the bench, and his ruling brings the law into disrepute.
Re:TEXT relating to Decision from LEXUS-NEXUS (Score:1)
Now this is very interesting, actually. What it suggests is that the current law is worded in such a manner that it does not ban all unsolicited faxes, only those unsolicited faxes that contain advertisements.
So in other words, Congress could pass a law banning all unsolicited faxes of any kind. But it didn't do that. Instead, it differentiated between faxes based on content. That is, in this judge's opinion, unconstitutional.
When put that way, it sounds reasonable. I'm all for the judicial branch making sure that our laws are properly and constitutionally written.
So they think junk faxes are okay, huh? (Score:2)
The ruling is a victory for a team of lawyers from Cozen O'Connor - Arthur W. Lefco, Michael P. Broadhurst and Julie G. DiSalvio - who represented Fax.com Inc. and challenged the constitutionality of a provision of the Telephone Consumer Protection Act.
The fax number for the Philadelphia offices of Cozen & O'Connor is 215-665-2013. Start forwarding all the spam you get to their fax machine, and see how long they continue to not have a problem with unsolicited faxes needlessly consuming their electricity, paper, and toner, and tying up their fax machine from receiving/sending legitimate correspondence.
~Philly
Re:So they think junk faxes are okay, huh? (Score:3, Interesting)
When a business sends out faxes hoping to trick somebody into buying some random piece of crap, that's protected expression. But if an individual does it as a form of protest, it will probably be called illegal harassment.
Don't fax that judge! (Score:3, Informative)
Instead, sign up all the judges on the appeals court that will hear the appeal, and fax them your junk e-mails, etc. They're the ones who will decide next. If they can't get any useful faxes (like submissions from Fax.com), maybe they'll see reason.
(flame) Lusers named Limbaugh are a hopeless case.(/flame)
Re:Mo Supreme Ct. Numbers (Score:1)