Chinese Government Further Restricts Internet Cafes 188
bwhalen writes: "Once again, China is demonstrating how much they love their citizens to have open communication. They have closed/demanded restructuring of a few thousand Internet Cafes; here's the story." Previous stories on China make clear that the Chinese government and the Chinese citizenry don't see eye-to-eye on how this whole Internet thing should work.
another duplicate for slashdot (Score:1)
Re:not so different.. (Score:1)
You are very much mistaken [slashdot.org].
Re:not so different.. (Score:1)
Re:I thought I'd take time out from the usual... (Score:1)
True, none of my relatives have been kidnapped and executed. However, it is also true that very few people in China have had their relatives kidnapped and executed. In fact, the execution rate in China is lower than in some states which have death penalty. [amarillonet.com]
Does that mean that, if we were living in China, we should also "think about how lucky we are to have what we do"?
Re:I thought I'd take time out from the usual... (Score:1)
Does that mean that, if we were living in China, we should also "think about how lucky we are to have what we do"?
It means that in China, there is no legally protected right to safely complain about anything. (For example, "free Mumia.") Political expression is prohibited by law, whenever the authorities care to enforce it. Can you even imagine what that would be like? We wouldn't be having this conversation.
Re:Of course they have to restrict the Internet (Score:1)
That may have been true in 1948, but today communism is pretty much dead in China. [antiwar.com]
A Challenge for SlashDotters (Score:1)
Obviously we have to bypass anything the Chinese government can control. That means we have until 2008 to develop a wireless - satellite system where the ISP's servers are on the satellite instead of on the ground. And it has to be cost effective to the average citizen in China.
How you get the signal to earth is not the real problem. The problem is how you get the signal from the earth back to the satellite and do it in such a way that the Chinese government is not capable of controlling it.
That is a very difficult problem but I'm sure you can solve it. You will be publically graded on your solution in 2008 and the person(s) with the best solution will probably become a multimillionare, and maybe win the Nobel Peace Prize. Regardless you will definitely get more than 15 minutes of fame. And the knowledge and pride in knowing you have solved one of the most difficult geopolitical problems facing democratic societies today.
I cannot speak for Slashdot but it would be nice to have volunteers from their staff to grade the solutions. Grading should be on the basis of how
cost effective it is and how much of the Internet it allows the average Chinese to access.
Get going....see you in 2008. (Solutions sooner are also accepted.)
I thought I'd take time out from the usual... (Score:2)
...bellyaching about the disintegration of Western society which happens here on /., to think about how lucky we are to have what
we do.
Sure, there are disputes here about who can write what software, but a country with laws against "socially destabilizing content," however healthy and progressive its current society, is only a few changes of leaders away from being a Stalinist hell. Sometimes (like now in China) you get good kings and all's well, but when you happen to get bad ones (and you will), they'll have the tools to stay in power.
Right now, in the west, dissent from the mainstream is thoroughly marginalized, but that's because the mainstream is, all in all, pretty nice. (Had a good breakfast this morning? How many of your relatives have been kidnapped and executed by state police? See a lot of treason arrests?) The right to disseminate information is what provides the essential feedback mechanism which preserves that condition. If the mainstream ever got worse, dissent would start looking a lot more normal. (And has, repeatedly, in the past.)
And I'll deviate from Slashdot patterns in a second way: I'm glad to have journalists around, flighty influence-wielding scandal-mongers though most of them may be. They are people with a direct, personal financial interest - expressed as lobbying and political influence - in keeping this essential right alive.
China still relaying spam (Score:2)
Now if they can only get the remaining 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the servers to not relay. THAT GOES TO YOU TOO, HONG KONG AND TAIWAN!
--
WolfSkunks for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.keenspace.com";
Olympics bring political change? (Score:2)
That's the only way they know how to react (Score:2)
New ideas are an extremely destabilizing thing in such a large and closed society. It's not so much that the ideas themselves are evil, as it is that the introduction of them at all.
This has the potential to destroy China's status quo. What would happen if everyone in China suddenly wanted a Porsche, or even just wanted ice cream? Can you imagine a billion people finding the internet? What happens when these people learn about miranda rights? Freedom of speech? Or, more likely, see all of the hardcore pornography..
Imagine going your whole life without ever seeing pornography until you were.. 27. You'd cream your pants instantly. Now, imagine the entire population did that. It'd be sheer chaos!
The only choice they have is oppression. They don't know what else to do. The internet will revolutionize China, but it won't be pretty.
Re:And this is supposed to surprise me? (Score:2)
Olympics (Score:2)
Sometimes I wonder why leaders give such obviously empty reasons ...
Re:Tough times ahead for China... (Score:1)
I do seem to recall that in recent history of a chineese neighbor, wearing glasses was an offense punishable by death. I wouldn't joke about it too much, it's not that improbable that we'll see it on the nightly news in the near future.
--Dan
Internet Free Asia? (Score:3)
Re:Internet Free Asia? (Score:3)
Well, the Soviet Union was hardly a weathly nation even at the peak of its power, and one of the reasons for its breakup was the fact that it was essentially a Russian-led empire, a fact which the other nationalities resented. While China does have its ethnic minorities such as Mongolians and Tibetans, it is much more linguistically and culturally unified than the Soviet Union was, making a breakup unlikely.
Shame on you. I think the chinese know what to do with their own country better than you.
If the Chinese actually had any say in what their government does, you'd have a point.
Who knows... (Score:2)
It's not likely, but y'never know. Meanwhile, I do wish the Chinese people the best of luck in their hunt for foreign proxy servers
Re:not so different.. (Score:1)
---
Re:I wonder.... (Score:3)
I visited Beijing, China for approximately 6 weeks during the spring of 2000. I used various Internet cafes to check my e-mail, browse the web, and use RealVideo. In some cafes I found that www.cnn.com was blocked, in others it was wide open. I think that the cafes usually found a way to get around the censorship if they wanted to.
An important thing to remember is that in China there are one set of rules for foreigners, one set of rules for regular citizens, and one set of rules for Communist party members. Foreigners and party members can probably look at any content they want. Only the proles must be shielded from the indecent outside world.
My observation of Chinese college students, however, indicates that they are far more fascinated with the Internet than American college students. One local Internet cafe charged 5 renminbi (3 renminbi could buy you a plate of dumplings next door) per hour for Internet access. Students would be there at all hours to send e-mail to friends in other cities and to correspond with people they had never met. Recently some auction sites were becoming popular.
The chinese government is in a difficult position as they want the educated class to be able to use technology for productive purposes. However, they do not want the educated class to be poisoned by outside ideas.
Stuart Eichert
--newsflash-- (Score:4)
really?
...damn, and
Re:Some perspectives (Score:4)
Good question. I don't know the whole answer, but there are some points that I think that contribute:
I visited southern China briefly once, and to my pampered Western eyes it was a hellhole. The pollution was unlike anything I had experienced, the poverty everywhere I looked, the polarized distribution of wealth far more stark than anything I've ever seen, the political corruption that created that division obvious (the number of Mercedes-Benzes with military numberplates, and the fact that the only properly constructed buildings were either built by foriegn multinationals or the Army gives it away pretty quickly). While the rapid improvement in living standards was undoubtedly there (nobody seemed to be starving, and many of the poor farmers seemed to be acquiring television sets and refrigerators), we see the relative poverty, not the improvement.
As far as political freedom goes - the part I visited, sure, the obvious signs of political oppression have been toned down. But when you see the place where hundreds of Falun Gong protestors were apparently arrested and carted off to prison camps, again, you don't see the improvement from the days of the Cultural Revolution, you compare it to your own country where such arrests and indefinite detention for peaceful political protest would be unthinkable.
Go you big red fire engine!
Re:Some perspectives (Score:1)
Still, this in itself does not make them "the worst". Certainly not very good, but there are places that are worse (eg Afghanistan, which recently recieved some money from the US)
Re:Some perspectives (Score:1)
This is nonsense. Christianity is not banned in China.
There is no real religious or political freedom possible in China right now,
You make it sound as though China is unique with this property. On the contrary, Afghanistan, and several of the Arab countries (Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran) are considerably worse.
China is the world's worst offender in human rights, outdone in degree to be sure by atrocious places like Sudan,
You just contradicted yourself. And Sudan is not the only counter-example (again, see Iran, Afghanistan, and Iraq)
but far and away the world leader in bringing misery to human lives in volume.
That's a silly criterion, because you're confusing their high poplulation with their human rights record. Indeed, on that scale, the US is probably worse than any other industrialised nation.
Re:No, to Hell with China (Score:1)
Re:I wonder.... (Score:3)
Better to have a peaceful revolution, slowly.
Pan
Re:Too bad Iridium died... (Score:2)
Iridium is very much alive and kicking.
Unfortunately they only offer data services at 2400 bps, so you're not going to be doing a lot of web surfing on that connection.
Besides which, satellite communications equipment is just as likely to get you into trouble as looking at verboten sites...
---------------------------------------------
Re:Too bad Iridium died... (Score:2)
Its much better than Globalstar has been for us.
And making calls from random places is very cool!..
---------------------------------------------
For the Athletes? Doubt it. (Score:2)
Wasn't athlete's internet access being restricted during the last olympics? I seem to remember someone trying to update his/her homepage and being told that he couldn't - That his experiences were the property of whatever media company had bought the rights.
Of course, I'm probably mistaken...
Cheers.
Jim in Tokyo
MMDC Mobile Media [mmdc.net]
Too bad Iridium died... (Score:1)
______________________________
China's not a Communist state (Score:1)
A good term for states that allow their citizens to conduct economic activities nearly unfettered but prohibit any political dissent is fascism. Arbitrary enforcement of laws enacted without any kind of legitimate legislative process is also a prominant feature of fascist governments.
We constantly refer to China as a Communist country, but with its Socialist public institutions and centrally planned economy rotting faster each day, I think it makes more sense to start comparing it to Mussolini's or Franco's regime.
Re:not so different.. (Score:1)
AHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!! WOOOOO!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAhahahahaahHAHAHAHAH!
'tears up' HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
PIRATED SOFTWARE?
In CHINA??
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ahahahahaahahahHAAHAHHAHAHAHAahahahaha
that's the best fucking laugh I've had in a couple weeks.
Re:Some perspectives (Score:2)
Oh, just because they kill people who disagree with the government, especially those that spread "subversive" ideas like Chrisitianity. There is no real religious or political freedom possible in China right now, despite the Chinese government's propaganda to the contrary. China is the world's worst offender in human rights, outdone in degree to be sure by atrocious places like Sudan, but far and away the world leader in bringing misery to human lives in volume.
China should not be treated as a respectable member of the international comunity until it begins to act respectably. (And, yes, I think we should never have granted PNR to the Chinese.)
Re:And this is supposed to surprise me? (Score:2)
Re:Some perspectives (Score:2)
Sorry, but it's your comment that seems to be rooted in nonsense. Christianity is indeed officially banned in China. House churches are outlawed, and only the decidedly non-Christian "Three Self" churches are allowed. Chinese prisons are, unfortunately, filled with those that tried to promote real Christian churches as an alternative. Those lucky enough to avoid prison find that they lose their jobs and "have no legal identity anymore" - a notable problem in a bureaucratic Communist society.
I recommend anyone interested in understanding the situation to read two things: First, this recent article about what's really going on with churches in China [worldmag.com], and then, for the broader picture of why Communism and Christianity must be in opposition, the excellent book Witness, by the late former Communist Whittaker Chambers. [amazon.com] (Just read the reviews, if nothing else - if you can possibly be open-minded about anything, they'll make you want to read the book, which is quite possibly the most influential autobiography of the past few centuries. Oh, and remember that the fall of the Soviet Union and the opening of KGB records proved Chambers absolutely truthful and correct.
IMHO, no one should be allowed to post any sort of opinion on Communism until they've read Witness.
Re:And this is supposed to surprise me? (Score:2)
The flow of Western ideas will follow the flow of Western capital. If China wants to compete with the US in markets other than 'cheapest labor items', they will have to adopt the Internet and digital economy fully.
Wire the entire nation and they will not be able to stop the flow of information into, out of and within their borders.
That information/idea flow, more than anything else, will help change China for the better.
MFN would help our large telecom suppliers (Lucent, Nortel [yes, I know they are Canadian], Uniphase, Corning, Cisco and the like) bid favorably on China's large network infrastructure plans. Unicom is spending a LOT of money on their network.
--
Charles E. Hill
not so different.. (Score:3)
Second, the CNN article says:
"China's laws broadly ban "socially destabilizing content," breaches of public security, "divulging state secrets" and Internet pornography."
How is that different from the.. say.. US laws? Nazi propaganda is socially destabilizing content and is forbidded in many western countries. Communism was considered destabilizing content and was forbidded in the USA for many years. etc. etc.
Third:
"Authorities closely monitor Web site content in search for buzzwords such as Taiwan, Tibet and the banned spiritual group Falun Gong, Web executives say."
Yeah? Well, the Echolon system and the NSA and CIA closely monitor *ALL* electronic traffic in search for buzzwords such as bomb, C4, Bill Clinton etc.
Could we get a little less US propaganda in the news and a little more of the ACTUAL facts. I'd like to know FACTS about why these Internet cafés were shut down. I don't doubt that it had to do with censorship but I didn't see any facts in the story.
Heh. "News Flash!" (Score:2)
"I'm shocked," sayz W.
Film at 11!
- - - - -
Code Red Worm (Score:2)
Think about it. In theory, the launch point of the worm should be traceable. The first version of the worm generated IP addresses with a single seed number... Therefore you should be able to determine the first 100 adresses on that list. The worm also makes no attempts to hide itself in the logs, so on those first 100 machines, you SHOULD be able to see an IP address before all the others that ISN'T in that list. It's traceable by IP.
So where would you launch this from? An internet cafe seems like a good choice... Wander in and sit down, insert a CD and start your own little mini web server, then remotely access a site with the known flaw and infect it.
It may take a few links in the chain, but you should be able to track down where the worm started from. I'm sure this is being done right now.
Of course, that's assuming the worm actually CAME from China, as it claimed to...
Re:Internet Free Asia? (Score:1)
Re:FUD campaign against China (Score:2)
Remember the Vietnam war? Wasn't it president Johnson who engaged in some fake boat sinking incident to kick-start it? (forgot the exact details) Why did we lose the war against the North, who were so little in numbers compared to that of ours? Because the American people OPPOSED it that's why. So to prevent such a thing from happening again Uncle Sam has decided that it's in our best interest to brainwash the average Joe Blow to hate China as much as possible.
Ever heard of something called the Tet Offensive? All the VC troops were killed at that point. The only North Vietnamese soldiers left were the regular infantry and they were nothing compared to the VC. We could have won easily if it wasn't for all those hippies and pinko anchors.
But in real life there is no true "good guy" or "bad guy". Everybody looks out for their own interests and think they are doing the right thing. We all have our points of view. What you see from your backyard is not the same as what I see in my own backyard.
Yes there is such a thing as true evil. Ever heard of Stalin? Pol Pot? Hitler? Mao? Castro? Dahmer?
Good case in point: the U.S. spyplane crash in China. Suppose it had been a Chinese spyplane flying over the coast of California. Suppose they had landed at LAX without getting permission from us. How do you think Mr. Bush would have reacted?
Funny, but it wasn't a spy plane. It was a reconnasance plane. Totally different there boy. It was over international waters, the commi pilot was known for getting as close as possible to all types of planes in the area (commercial and cargo included) and had been reprimanded several times in the past for it. We radio'd telling what the commi pilot did and asked for permission to land then said we had to make an emergency landing. We offered to recover the chinese pilot who died in the horseshit but of course the commies refused. Oh yeah, and I got news for you, other countries run reconnasance flights against us!
So what does the U.S. really want out of China? I'll tell you. Our government would love it if China suffers the same fate of USSR: break up into many tiny pieces. When that happens the goold ol' US of A will have become the only standing world super-power. We'd have majority voting power in Nato, and thus we will have controlled basically the entire planet. We will have elevated from "Big Brother" to "Pimp Daddy" with nobody to challenge us. Absolute Power my friends is what the U.S. is after.
NATO is nothing. NATO is obsolete. It has been for decades now. The US is secondary to the Europeans in NATO. We shouldn't even be in NATO or the UN. Its clear you mean the UN but you obviously don't know the difference. Yeah we might not be perfect, but then why have millions of people fled Eastern Europe, China and Cuba to escape communist oppression to live in the US? We're still better than communism.
You're just a conformist rebel. It's rather obvious you don't yet have A Clue by your ID# and URL in there. Oh yeah, and you have the intelligence of a preteen nigerian girl.
Re:FUD campaign against China (Score:2)
Gotta agree (Score:1)
Indeed, it isn't as bad as it appears. Only a fraction of the inspected places got shut down. It could only be for faulty wiring on the appliances I hope. ;-)
Don't be silly (Score:1)
Sites that are intentionally "subsersive" or pose "direct threat" (i.e. "falungong.com" or whatever) are probably not that popular with foreigners anyway.
experiences with homosexuals in Beijing=! illegal (Score:2)
Maybe it was different in YOUR part of Beijing, but...
* There are gay bars in Beijing. Specifically "jin ba wang" and "hudie" ( I think those are the names). One has a sign outside it that says "tongzhi jiu ba" (comrade ("gay") bar). Another place "ban meng" is/was (heard it closed down) a trendy place whose proprietoress was a well known transgender dancer.
* More than once, in clubs in Beijing, I was approached by men who wanted to dance,etc. I am male.
* Near Peking University (across the street from Tu shu cheng) there is a large famous male brothel (or so it is rumurored). There is also supposed to be a lot of cruising at a park outside the west gate of Peking University
The government doesn't have an ax to grind with homosexuals. /PERCIEVED/ as homosexual in Beijing could land you in a state reprogramming center.
Things aren't very free. Making out with your boyfriend in public is asking for trouble.
Things are much free-er in the US/San Francisco.
BUT, it seems quite a stretch to say simply being
Can you tell me where you get this information? It seems that there is a good deal of bad information on China out there -- and since everyone believes or wants to believe that China is the evil empire, the rumors spread fast. (regardless of the truth either way). Maybe things have changed since I've been in Beijing.
Re:Internet Free Asia? (Score:2)
Beware that uncensored does not always mean "unbiased" -- I'm sure the RFA people have their own goals.
If you want to help with the internet, I think setting up some type of proxy server would probably be your best bet. Tunneling, encrypted, etc, it'd be convenient. There used to be a service at CND [cnd.org] that let you type in URLs like http://proxy.cnd.org/www.cnn.com and it'd give you cnn. Good stuff.
What an internet cafe looks like... (Score:4)
One of the biggest internet cafes I've seen -- it's located on the south end of Peking University. I haven't been back in more than a year, but I think it's pretty much taken control of the entire street. (it's a good location, too). (some of it was recently torn down for new construction or something).
A page of pictures [feiyu.com.cn]
more pictures [feiyu.com.cn]
the about-us page [feiyu.com.cn] :
Remember to bring a grain or two of salt, but translated, some of the interesting things are
They have 1800 computers (started with 25)
They have 20Mbit connectivity (DDN direct line?)
16,000 users/daily
open 24 hours
have trained 1,800 people
have been reported on by 2300 different media organizations.
What people do at them
I remember the most common activity was playing games. Lots of folks playing some weird sniper game and starcraft. At night, always a fool or two in the back flipping between tasks/peeping porno.
Lots of BBS/bulletin board action now, I hear...
Hmmm lastly, last time I checked, the graduate student dorms (and possibly some of the undergrad dorms) at Peking University had ethernet that connected to a internal China network. People sometimes use a program called ProxyHunter to find ways out of the internal network.
Damn, when I first came in 1998, Feiyu was a crappy little place where there were 25 computers and a not-so-knowledgable staff. Things have changed, I guess.
Re:I wonder.... (Score:2)
They should move the Olympics to the US so we can kidnap some more foreign nationals (Kinda puts things in perspective, doesn't it?)
Chinese GOVt to Citizen: (Score:2)
Re:Olympics bring political change? (Score:2)
If the US doesn't officially boycott, we should as individual citizens, encourage everyone we know to not watch the television coverage and boycott anyone who advertises during/sponsors it.
Re:Olympics (Score:2)
After 30 years, our policy of constructive engagement is clearly a failure. The Chinese government is a corrupt, oppressive, and racist totalitarian regime that needs to be brought down. They should not have gotten the Olympics, they should not get MFN status and they should not be allowed into the WTO.
Re: You are stupid (Score:2)
Really? When did Jiang Zemin last stand for election? Who did he run against? What were their main areas of contention?
The answers, in case you do not know is that he was elected the head of the communist party by communist party members. He did not face any opposition. He was not elected by the people. The people had no choice.
Tell me who was sentenced to death due to advocating access free internet?
I did not say anyone had. I said they could. People are routinely executed for PEACEFUL political opposition. Consider, for example, the countless Tibetan monks that have been jailed, exiled, and executed from the time the Chinese occupation of Tibet began until this very day. Of course, there is also the painful example of Tienanmen Square where peaceful protesters were murdered and jailed.
Your comparison to G8 is absurd. The protesters in Genoa are violent, sometimes in the extreme.
This is the same in China. I know, because I am form china. You know nothing and your brain is full of crap from western propaganda.
Admit that, what you say about China are all from what western media told you. And you cannot tell the true from the false, because you have never had chance lived in both states among the PEOPLE to understand them.
Sorry, no. I cannot admit that. I have, as I mentioned above, spent time in both states among the PEOPLE. And, in order for any of your complaints about Western media to hold any water, you have to provide some semblance of motivation for Western media to bash China.
Why would Western media do that? They have nothing at all to gain. They are motivated to do exactly the opposite because iif they want to do business in China, they better not criticize the Chinese government.
In short, you are either the most ignorant Chinese person to visit America or you are a communist party stooge. Which is it?
Re:Human rights (Score:2)
I did not suggest that the dead guy's act of bashing in a car with a fire extinguisher excused any possible act of violence against any arbitrary protester, I said that the guy getting shot while protesting made sense in light of HIS actions.
By contrast, the Chinese government is guilty of acting immorally with respect to Tianenmen Square because their actions were not taken against specific violent individuals to stop their violence, but instead to stop the peaceful political expression of an entire class of people.
Please tell me that you are not so dense as to not understand the difference?
Re:No, to Hell with China (Score:2)
I am an ardent opponent of the death penalty. Nevertheless, I am capable of recognizing the difference between the execution of murderers (US) and the execution of political prisoners (China).
And do you believe the law will be really repealed?
With all my heart. In any country, bad laws can get passed. The DMCA is not the first nor will it be the last in the USA. But we have processes for getting rid of bad laws. Right now legislaters like Rep Boucher are working on laws to get rid of section 1201 and re-establish the importance of fair use.
Honestly, I would be surprised if the DMCA lasts in its current form beyond 2002.
The RIAA is the one paying big amounts of money to get the law passed, and *most* people among the voters don't know about the DMCA and it's implications, so they will keep voting the ones that passed the DMCA while getting their pockets full.
The problem with the DMCA is that it destroys freedoms that every day Americans take for granted. When people see their friends being arrested for no reason and their speech curtailed for fear of law suits, there will be an outroar. This one incident alone is really causing a stir.
Re: You are stupid (Score:2)
The Chinese government does what is best for itself. To keep itself in power. In issues not related to retaining power, I am certain that they do try to do what is best for the Chinese people. BUT THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS NOT ELECTED. There is no check on whether they think what is best for the Chinese people is, in fact, what is best for the Chinese people.
How do you know what will give the best possible outcome for the chinese people?
No one person knows for sure what is best for an entire society. That's why democracy is so important. It holds those charged with "deciding what is best" for their people are held accountable for being wrong about what is best.
And allso. No one knows for shure if the american people elected the current president
That's a load of horse shit. The election was a statistical tie. Either person being president right now is a valid outcome.
Re:Human rights (Score:2)
What I saw on TV was a police car, not an armoured vehicle. Either way, HIS ACTIONS WERE VIOLENT ACTIONS, NOT PEACEFUL. If, in fact, no one's life was endangered by his act, then a bullet in the head is not a proportional use of force. As you say, there is a murder investigation. That's because Italy is a country of laws, unlike China.
In short, it does not matter what my understanding of the truth is or what your understanding of the truth is. In a country of laws like the USA and Italy, the truth will come out and the guilty will be punished.
None of that, however, can justify Giuliani's actions. He was nothing more than a violent hooligan. Death may or may not have been a harsh punishment for being a hooligan (depending on whether someone else's life was in danger or perceived to be in danger), but he was a hooligan.
Re: You are stupid (Score:2)
Voted on by whom exactly? When? Do they get a chance to repeal bad laws? Do they get a chance to propose their own? Or are they instead offer a single slate of laws which they basically must vote for?
You do realise there's a fine line between peaceful and violent? If the protesters behave in a manner that's considered threatening to the authorities (flailing arms, legs, and such)..
There is no such fine line. Violence is the threat of or that act of doing harm to the person or property of another. Flailing arms, legs, and such are not violent under any conception of violent. The G8 protesters were quite violent.
Sorry, but you'll have to have actually lived there for some time (a year or so) before you can give accurate assessments. Being there for vacation don't count.
Sorry, it does count. Certainly you see more if you live there for a while, but a well-spent vacation does provide a very good picture of the area you are visiting. What I learned is this:
On Rupert Murdoch controlling all Western media. HE DOES NOT. While he controls a lot more than he should, he does not control anything near all Western media. There is no unifying control in any Western media.
Are you under the bizarre impression that all journalists from all Western countries go to the same school for indoctrination by the same people? And that these people all have an anti-China agenda?
Easy. China makes for an easy boogyman to keep western dissidents in check. 'Why are you complaining when this system is MUCH BETTER than China's?'
What Western dissidents? And I don't get the last question. First, what do you think I am complaining about? Second, if I were complaining, that would not imply that China's is better. Unless you have the perfect system--which no one does--then you always have something to complain about. The problem with China is that you don't have the right to complain.
Yes they do. It's called 'slave labor'.
Dude, the Western media is not dependent on cheap Chinese labor. Some Western manufacturing industries are, but manufacturing and entertainment are two vastly different industries. And, by the way, a media dependent on "slave labor" from China would be incented to create a POSTIVE image for China.
Damn, making one point you made yourself look the fool twice!
Re:Tough times ahead for China... (Score:3)
While Marx never saw Communism in the way it has been realized in the many "Communist" governments of the 20th century (in fact, he thought Russia was the last country on earth to be ready for Communism), the problem with Communism is that it assumes all humans place the same value on all things, from goods and services to love and happiness.
In fact, however, everyone places different values on things. Communism thus needs to leverage something in order to create a set of shared values for society. This is inevitably the political system and the result is inevitably totalitarianism.
Re:Human rights (Score:3)
No, to Hell with China (Score:5)
And the maximum jail term, I believe, is 5 years.
In China, unelected government officials arbitrarily determine that they do not want their citizens having access to the free Internet. They thus shutdown the means of getting free access. No one protests since they risk a death sentence for doing so.
Several key differences here:
While the US is way out of line on the Dmitry issue, there is absolutely no comparison between China and the USA.
Re:And this is supposed to surprise me? (Score:2)
Because American industry wants cheap slave labor. [nam.org]
Re:Some perspectives (Score:2)
Perhaps because they killed >1000 civilians for no reason, in front of the worlds media, and then denied it?
Re:You are so naive (Score:2)
My dad, however, was doing a lot of business with mainland china in the late eighties and early nineties, and two chinese women are relatives of mine. They have positive things to say about China.
Myself, I take a darker view, since appeasement of a potential adversary -- from a historical POV -- tends to be a poor strategy.
The prostitution comment is from a story my Dad told me when he was ushered out of a nightclub while the mil police collected their prostitution cut. The businessmen he was with explained what was happening. I think he was there doing legit business, and just observing the nightlife, but you never know with that old goat.
The story about the child regards a distant cousin of a chinese woman I am related to
The execution was for a drug 'mule' who was caught with heroin. The particular city my Dad was in was discussing his capture at the airport. It stuck in my Dad's mind because it was so swift -- the man was caought at the airport when my pop arrived, and was dead when my pop departed the next week.
I guess that makes me a 'naive troll'. There are many wonderful people in China, and a lot of good people in government, but the core belief of that government is that they will roll over the west and take over the world. It's actually stated policy.
If I'm an 'naive troll' for giving people a glimpse into what it's like in China, albeit second hand, then it's your choice to not listen and call me names.
The sories I mention are from people I trust implicitly, so I beieve the avents occurred as related.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
Re:My apology (Score:2)
The truth is, I'm a dystopian. That means I see no indication, on any front, that any true respect will come to human beings any time soon.
In fact, if you have seen the movie 'Terminator', in particular the scene with massive robotic machines crunching their way over heaps of human remains, that is the only future I see for humanity.
I could well be wrong, I hope for the sake of children that I am wrong, and that you are right -- that the rapes in central park, the shootings in columbine, the bomb in oklahoma, sarin gas in japan, a lack of human rights in china...maybe they will become parts of history not to be repeated.
My gut feeling is the worst will happen. The holocaust in germany, the pogrommes in the USSR, the lynchings of god-knows-how-many-blacks in the USA.
Twisted minds love to control, to assert power, to kill. That is world into which we are thrust, I can only control the few feet around me, and only to a certain extent. So be it.
Thanks,
S.D.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
Re:not so different.. (Score:5)
First of all, the article didn't say WHY the 2000 (out of 58000) Internet cafés had been shut down. For all we know, it could be because they used pirated software.
Give me a break. No one, not even the Chinese government, denies that they squelch speech. It's central to their idea of government. According to the article, the Shanghai daily says 59 cafes had operations suspended for "rectification and improvement". That's the standard line, which generally means some people will confess and renounce their past actions and beliefs, and the appropriate personnel will be employed to monitor them in the future (for their own good, of course).
Yeah? Well, the Echolon system and the NSA and CIA closely monitor *ALL* electronic traffic in search for buzzwords such as bomb, C4, Bill Clinton etc.
It's an entirely different thing-- I know, I've seen what it's like for an internet company to do business there. Want to set up a web service there? Maybe, say, a free home page service? Sure, no problem! All content must be saved to a staging server first, where censors check it before it goes live. People signing up for accounts must provide accurate information, so that in the event objectionable content is found, they can be tracked down for-- wait for it-- "rectification and improvement".
Could we get a little less US propaganda in the news and a little more of the ACTUAL facts. I'd like to know FACTS about why these Internet cafés were shut down. I don't doubt that it had to do with censorship but I didn't see any facts in the story.
We seem to find the story remarkable for different reasons. I'm surprised that they even bothered reporting it, in the midst of continued repression of various religious groups including Falun Gong, their new death squads (oh, sorry-- drug police), and continued restatement that they will not back off any of these oppressive measures-- which seem to all make them even more attractive to the WTO.
The only thing remotely interesting about this article is that some rather ill-informed politicians use the cafes as an example that China is opening up, that trade with them is working, that we should include them without any condemnation as a fabulous member of the world community. Well, there's one less example for them. But then, even that one was wearing thin in the face of thousands of people executed right before they were chosen to host the 2008 Olympics.
Don't get me wrong-- I'm not anti-China. I'm for all the people being unjustly detained for stating beliefs contradictory to the approved dogma. I'm for the hundreds of thousands of people relocated to make way for the 3 Gorges Damn, and the millions who will be killed if the damn (which is built on a fault line) breaks. It just seems clear to me, though, that if you are for the Chinese people, you have to be quite upset with their government right now. It's gone downhill since Tienenmien Square.
Re:macpeep : Facts on closures of internet cafes (Score:2)
The number is classified, but it is thought to be more like 70,000. Whatever it is, it's a LOT more than 18k.
For more info on the NSA, I suggest you read the very well-researched book The Puzzle Palace [amazon.com].
Re:Why China got the Olympics (Score:3)
Re:not so different.. (Score:5)
it's very different. Under US law it is illegal to call for the violent overthrow of the government. It is not illegal to call for elections or to say the the elections we've had are tainted. It is illegal to do those things in China. See the difference? Of course you do. You could see the difference before you even posted. So why did you post? troll? nitwit? who knows.
"Authorities closely monitor Web site content in search for buzzwords such as Taiwan, Tibet and the banned spiritual group Falun Gong, Web executives say." Yeah? Well, the Echolon system and the NSA and CIA closely monitor *ALL* electronic traffic in search for buzzwords such as bomb, C4, Bill Clinton etc.
Once again, here you can post messages about C4 or the Falun Gong (you just did) and not actually get arrested or tortured. The government may scan, but would be because it is looking for actual criminals committing actual crimes (as in part A above). There is no religion that you could write about here in the US that would get you sentenced and or tortured. But Falun Gong and Lamaism are two religions that will get you imprisoned in China. Too bad we don't have a law here against asking seemingly provocative but in reality inane questions: troll or not, you'd be going down. Oh well, we'll leave laws like that to the Chinese.
----
Re:not so different.. (Score:2)
How is that different from the.. say.. US laws?
Right. Talking about US laws...
Nazi propaganda is socially destabilizing content and is forbidded in many western countries.
What? Now talking about western countries? Who cares? Many western countries are oppressive as well (France, for example -- not to imply they are in the same class as China). But in the US, Nazi propaganda has been ruled legal time and time again.
Communism was considered destabilizing content and was forbidded in the USA for many years.
Yeah, what, 50 years ago? And that was during a time when we were inches away from war with the Soviet Union. What's your point (in the present, please)? Nowadays, it's specifically embraced by many of our beloved college professors on many college campuses. I don't see them being thrown in jail for their beliefs.
Well, the Echolon system and the NSA and CIA closely monitor *ALL* electronic traffic in search for buzzwords such as bomb, C4, Bill Clinton
Proof, please. All the paranoia surrounding Echelon is theoretical. The FBI needs a court order to wiretap a specific individual.
Could we get a little less US propaganda in the news and a little more of the ACTUAL facts.
Indeed.
--
Re:I wonder.... (Score:2)
So, basically, they want a magnet which only has a North pole.
Mum's the word (Score:2)
I can just see it now... (Score:2)
I can just see the tanks now, rolling through the Olympic village, squishing the athletes as they run for their lives because the Chinese mistook morning calisthenics for Falun Gong meditation. IBM's usual Olympic webcasts will instead be broken into hourly by government sponsored Chinese hackers so that websurfers world wide are treated to that spectacular shot of the goatse.cx guy. In a masterful display of revisionism, Olympic commentary will refer to all events as Chinese wins and victories over US hegemony, no matter what the real outcome was; anyone who does not tow that state line comes home broken with a broken spirit and mind courtesy of the PLA. Lastly, a plane load full of athletes is shot down over Japan as the Chinese complain that because they once had soldiers standing on those shores at some point in history that the plane had invaded their airspace.
What is it they say about tigers and their stripes? 2008 will be very interesting. Personally, I expect the Chinese to do something really dumb between now and then to cause boycotts of the games.
Re:True, but... (Score:2)
People might not know about it if they don't hear it over and over. Consider that each time someone hears it, they may become more and more against that sort of thing and move towards becoming that internal or external force. It's a process and does not happen overnight just because you and I saw it was something that should be dealt with. It takes longer for the word to spread so that everyone is as disgusted with the situation as we are. I guarantee you it will take a few years more before anything much more is done.
On the positive side, maybe a democratic China will be hosting the Olympics in 2008.
Re:Tough times ahead for China... (Score:2)
Cellphones and internet cafes have become rampant in China. The chineese government already admits that they cannot control the cellphone boom, and SMS messaging. The internet cafes provide an easy way for any chineese citizen to get online, and there are many ways around the state filter boxes, so many in fact that it is practically impossible to stop people from finding and using proxy-servers available all over the country.
Cripes! That's it! Better than Radio Liberty! We compile a list of pagers and SMS capable devices in use in China and begin sending messages into the email addresses corresponding to them on a frequent basis. It can be a great way of spreading information freely! That or their government will move in and kill all the pager and cellphone users in one fell swoop.
Re:In related news... (Score:2)
The good part of China having cyber cafes was that the people could get information out to the rest of the world quickly. Now that they are closed down, it is one less channel for people to report to the world about what atrocities are happening. In that sense it is important because those people have lost a voice, not as though they legally (according to their country) had that voice to begin with.
We'll have to rely on people escaping across the Himalayas or being lucky enough to leave that nation to learn about those sort of things from now on if they all go away.
Re:not so different.. (Score:2)
But you are right. It is not so different. We consider decryption devices to be socially (or at least economically) destablizing. I for one am opposed to that sort of thing here.
Note that you have not been put before a firing squad for opposing that sort of thing. BTW, what decryption devices are considered socially or economically destabilizing? We use a VPN connection between International sites, and all that helps us do is produce more and be socially productive.
Re:I wonder.... (Score:2)
The more people that visit China for the olympics and come back with a bad taste in their mouths, the more the Chinese government will have to work against the bad PR they *might* get as a result.
Things as trivial as preventing (or restricted) I'Net access for 3 friggin' weeks for the world's largest sporting events for hundreds of thousands of people could have a negative impact on their country's visitor's during that time.
Again, all I'm saying is that it should be interesting to see how they plan to handle this issue (hopefully providing free access to tourists) while continuing to repress their own citizens.
I wonder.... (Score:5)
This should be interesting to watch in the next few years.
Re:not so different.. (Score:2)
Nazi propaganda is protected speech in the states, and Communism was never forbidden by law (only by bullying of certain powers like the UAC and Canwell Committee...).
But you are right. It is not so different. We consider decryption devices to be socially (or at least economically) destablizing. I for one am opposed to that sort of thing here.
Sig: Tell all your friends NOT to download the Advanced Ebook Processor:
In related news... China sux, US rox (Score:2)
According to China's new Attorney General, John Ashcroft, "there are many people of poor and evil motivations who are seeking to disrupt business and government and exploit any vulnerabilities in the digital universe."
"There is perhaps nothing quite as distressing as the unintended consequences of well-intentioned government," Ashcroft added.
The consensus reaction on Slashdot was "Gee, those Chinese ppl are mean. China sux. Good thing we live in the U.S. of A."
Ashcroft's former employer, George W. Bush, had no official comment but was heard to mutter under his breath "there ought to be limits to freedom."
Re:I wonder.... (Score:2)
In any case, fuck facist governments.
___
In related news... (Score:2)
Come on people, China, Afghanistan, North Korea, etc..., they all have dictators ruling there. Probably (and sadly) closing cybercafes is not the worst thing that can happen there (massive executions in China anyone?, hunger in north Korea?). I know that this is Internet related news, but knowing whats happening in that countries, where some people doesn't have enough even to eat, seems a bit frivolous to me
State secrets... (Score:2)
Re:Tough times ahead for China... (Score:2)
Re:Human rights (Score:2)
Depends. One man pounding on an armored car is little danger (except possibly to the re-painting budget). One hundred are a danger. I didn't get a good view of the vehicle, but police riot vehicles are generally not tanks, they are just trucks with extra heavy sheet metal and window glass. Let enough people pound the windows for long enough, and they will break. Beyond that, there are ways one man on foot can immobilize or destroy the heaviest army tank if he is allowed to get up close with a crowbar, gasoline, or many other common items.
I doubt that the Italian police mistook that fire extinguisher for a molotov cocktail, and chances are they weren't in that much danger from the whole crowd. So shooting probably was an overreaction. But even so,
1. It's an isolated incident. (At least I assume the Italian police don't gun down protestors more often than other western countries, which is to say hardly ever.)
2. They shot one man, where the Chinese police/military in similar (or probably less physically threatening) situations have used machine guns on the crowd.
3. Most of all, people are free to talk about it, post the pictures, and campaign to remove the politicians ultimately responsible for this from office. You won't see the Chinese authorities allowing anything like that sort of free and open discussion in their country -- even if they have to shut down internet cafes and censor servers.
Some perspectives (Score:4)
One big problem for most people evaluating the situation in China from outside is that it is difficult to recognize the vast range social parameters can take. Even in the US, some laws are so good that people constantly sing its praise (think First Amendment) while some are so bad that they are considered national shame by many (think DMCA). Now take that distance as unit. Starting at First Amendment, going in the direction of DMCA for, say, between 0.5 and 5 units, you will cover perhaps most of Chinese laws in terms of restriction of freedom. If you go still several times further, you'll reach the range of some more terrible states existing today, or the state of China when Nixon visited it. That state was not even defined by the laws of that time, as there were essentially none.
So depending on what your reference point is, you could say that China has made tremendous progress while at the same time it has a long way to go. If you think these two are contradictory, you will have a long time to argue which is right.
But there is a lesson to be learned. In the past century, apart from one exception (South Africa), the best support for authoritarian regimes has been the sanctions and blockades from democratic countries, and the biggest initiator of reform comes from open exchange with democratic countries. It was lucky for Chinese people that Nixon had the guts to visit it when it was in such a miserable state (even though his motivation was largely to forge an anti-Soviet alliance). Other nations still under sanctions now unfortunately have to endure many more years of dictatorship.
What about the human rights situation in China now? Based on the media report here, I would say it is so much better than it used to be. Those who consider this as the worst situation that could be simply knows too little about history, especially the darker side of history.
So is Olympics good for China? Of course it is. It is good for the Chinese people. It might also be good for the Communist government, but I don't care. I consider the Chinese people much more important than the Chinese government.
When I left China, it was hard to imagine owning a telephone unless you are an official, in that case you get it for free. It is now difficult for me to contemplate the number of cell phones in Chinese cities, and it is an eye-opener to see the prevalence of Internet cafes. We hated Bush Sr. then when he sent envoys to China so soon after Tiananmen. But in retrospect that might have done more to improve the lives of Chinese people than his son is ever capable of.
Western countries like to use carrot and stick to induce democracy in other countries. The problem is that the distance between carrot and stick is so limited it does not cover even a tiny fraction of the possible range. Static policies based on stereotype do not work. What will work is a dynamic policy that actually reward changes in the positive direction.
Re:not so different.. (Score:2)
Chinese people in my experience dislike (and criticize, at least to me) their government. Just one thing is more irritating to a Chinese than this oppressiveness, and that is the unbearable holier-than-thou attitude of US-Americans who has NO idea of the problems in the country where they live, but has ALL the answers to the problems in a country probably at 1.8 billion people (un-official number) with a history of thousands of years of corruption and feudal governments. I have used Internet in China, and noticed only that CNN was blocked (probably under some obnoxiousness clause) and that was easily bypassed using any proxy available. When I was there, there was an attempt to control the Internet cafe's, because they are making students stay away from school (the IC's are always packed with pimply kids who surf, and more often game the time away at 0.1 dollar per hour).
For those that are so concerned about the controls the Chinese government imposes, get a grip of the scale! The Internet usage is exploding, I was seeing people sitting transfixed at all kinds of offices, using the net. Not even the superior technology of the US succeed in this, although no dobt they're trying. (The US also has superior propaganda, which this thread so clearly shows.) How will you monitor that number of people?
All the recent news show that the China Gov. does NOT have control, latest 2 was accidents in a unlicences mine and a unlicenced dynamite factory - how long would you manage to run any business like that in the "free and open" US? Face it, the government in China do NOT have control, and it is for all of us to hope that somehow China does GET control. It is a long time since China was communist (economically speaking my native country Norway is more communist, probably because they can afford it).
Politically, I'd like to get some real change, and suggestions how to go democratic overnight in such a monster of a country.
Frankly, the US might do better NOT trying to help, since all political solutions from those quarters seem to involve bombs (preferably from high altitude).
Nothing new under the sun (Score:2)
Yeah, I'll probably loose karma for quoting Ecclesiastes 1:9 [gospelcom.net], but it is Sunday, and we are talking about China ... and it's no like
we haven't talked about this subject before, even on our beloved /. [slashdot.org]
Still, for those who thought human rights weren't an olympic issue, just think of how much fun it's not going to be to go the Olympics and attempt to transmit stories and images of the results from behind the Great Firewall [cpj.org]. So much for thinking that bringing commerce and communications [libertysearch.com] would have the same effect as the barbarians did to Rom [usatoday.com]e.
Hopefully, some clever hacks out there will figure ways of circumventing, if the price isn't too high [salon.com]. Sometimes I just wonder if we just shouldn't have listened to Patton [jeffsarchive.com] and MacArthur [state.gov] and been done with the problem 50 years ago ?!
Re:Encryption, FreeNet, etc (Score:2)
MSK@SSK@NLgvvGUTGnwgEN9jKEeC3G6jhEEQAgE/freenews//
The Freenet Project website on Source Forge has been banned and is filtered from within China.
There is a mirror of the Freenet Project's website within freenet at:
MSK@SSK@p0EFqjmDioSqKmYYORPrClUepi4QAgE/snarfoo//f reenet/index.html
There is a Chinese version of Freenet in progress called FreenetCN [sourceforge.net].
From China I Write to You (Score:4)
China is a nation of one billion people. We are as free as you or me. Would I write that which I cannot condone? Would the person who pays me one million dollars ever disagree with such a thing? Of course not.
We should not discuss this matter. I must leave now.
Does this surprise anyone? (Score:2)
E-postcards only, probably (Score:2)
True, but... (Score:2)
The bullet is mightier than the pen (Score:2)
You're assuming the Chinese government is unwilling to kill its citizens to take away their freedoms. As we learned in Tianament Square (yes, I know I keep harping on it, and I will keep doing so), they are quite willing to kill to prevent free speech. I like the taste of free Internet communication, but the taste of air is so much sweeter. To continue enjoying the latter, I would certainly give up the former. And that is how China can take away any freedom it wants: by not being constrained by morality.
To put it very simply: If the Chinese government shoots only one out of 100 unauthorized internet users or any sort, very few people will choose to be unauthorized users.
Yah, but... (Score:2)
Aha! (Score:2)
When pigs fly (Score:2)
I propose we begin development of flying pigs immediately if we want to see a free China by 2008.
Why China got the Olympics (Score:3)
So, I doubt the IOC even seriously considered the human rights angle, but just made noises about human rights so watchdog groups would be happy. The real reason probably has more to do with gifts and cash changing hands, and perhaps a little bit with genuinely excellent athletic facilities.
Is /. censored? (Score:2)
Internet porn, and freedom... (Score:2)
And the internet spoke
And the State said 'Thou shalt not look at the p0rn, for it is dirty and has many naughty bits.'
And the people said 'Fuck thou state, for we like the naughty bits.'
And a new Government was born, and said 'Lo! We are different, and think you should enjoy the naughty bits. Go forth and look at p0rn, and pay us taxes.'
And the people looked at the p0rn, and paid the taxes, and all was good.
Tough times ahead for China... (Score:3)
It's interesting, and an old story that ricochets around the world. Many Marxist and totalitarian communist regimes are desperately trying to come to terms with the most effective tool for democratic change yet devised.
No, not the internet
Web servers, chat servers, bulletin boards, usenet, and a host of other applications send news, opinions, ideas around the world faster than any single government could hope to filter it.
In the past it has been typewriters, telephones, and the word processor (all of which you need a license to own in China) which could be reasonably controlled by the state.
Cellphones and internet cafes have become rampant in China. The chineese government already admits that they cannot control the cellphone boom, and SMS messaging. The internet cafes provide an easy way for any chineese citizen to get online, and there are many ways around the state filter boxes, so many in fact that it is practically impossible to stop people from finding and using proxy-servers available all over the country.
Perhaps the communist's rule will not fall due to revolution
I for one.. think that is a wonderful thing.