More Silliness Over Patents: NetZero Sues Juno 135
def con Cyber writes: "Is that idea so obvious it shouldn't be patentable? This is an interesting story where NetZero is suing Juno over its ability to "pop up external advertising windows". " Check out the update (Thanks to Dan Kaminksy) regarding the suit that Juno had filed against NetZero to start this whole thing off.
Re:Yep...It's the Republicians fault... (Score:1)
Both parties are clueless about patents...why do assholes keep on trying to say one party is better than the other when they are both crap when it comes to IP issues?
The election is OVER. Neither guy was wanted - the results were as if everyone just flipped a coin and then voted!!!!
- Scalawag
Campaign idea (Score:1)
Re:Pop up ads becoming mainstream (Score:1)
Pop up ads are the reason I switched from Intellicast for getting my weather. I ended up switching to Yahoo! Weather because their ads aren't so instrusive and it has the trademark KISS Yahoo! UI, which is always a plus. I almost switched to weather.com, but it popped up a few ads (oddly enough, it only did this once or twice out of about a dozen visits), and I may still switch at some point in the future if the pop-ups from their site can be selectively blocked.
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:1)
Thanks
Bruce
Re:Obligatory Cue:Cat Slam (Score:1)
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You don't become a failure until you are content with being one.
A thing about patents... (Score:1)
Personally, I think that pop-up ad windows should be banned, but that was an earlier story.
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:1)
It's my understanding that you can only patent a method, not a product.
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:1)
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Spy vs Spy (Score:1)
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NetZero - ha! (Score:1)
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:1)
It's not "persistent". RTF-article.
Hotline Client has an ad running at all times.
Probably covered by the patent. But it seems NZ got the patent specifically so they could go after Juno, so they most likely won't get sued.
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:1)
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Slashdot didn't accept your submission? hackerheaven.org [hackerheaven.org] will!
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:1)
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Slashdot didn't accept your submission? hackerheaven.org [hackerheaven.org] will!
On the plus side.... (Score:1)
Re:On a somewhat related note... (Score:1)
Your originality is underwhelming.
Note to moderators: anyone who posts a comments saying "I've patented breathing/eating/pooping/drooling/whacking off/scratching my ass/being downright stupid, etc, etc, etc..." should be modded down to -100 'I Got My Ass Kicked On A Daily Basis By That One-Legged Blind Girl in Kindergarten', pummeled viciously, then drug out back and shot.
New patent idea (Score:1)
A business model by which stupid and/or obvious ideas are patented and then violators are sued for money.
I could make a fortune from this one patent alone, and never even have to provide a product or service or even come up with any other ideas! Anytime a company sues another over a stupid or obvious patent (one-click shopping, pop-up ads), I could sue them!
It would also have the side benefit of preventing other stupid or obvious patents from being enforced.
Juno and NetZero both going down... (Score:1)
Personally, I think this is a brilliant way to compete against both "free" (ad-based) ISPs such as Juno and NetZero and also pay-ISPs (AOL, MSN, local providers, etc.), and I hope it becomes the norm (even if such "truly-free" ISPs offer lower-quality service than pay-ISPs [which, btw, NoCharge doesn't AFAIK])
Re:Juno and NetZero both going down... (Score:1)
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:1)
Re:I'm sueing! (Score:1)
Sick of it (Score:1)
Oh well, at least nobody suprises me by having a popup showing me to goatse.cx, thank god.
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Never trust a guy who has his IP address tattoed to his arm, especially if it's DHCP
Dammit (Score:1)
Free ISP's?? They are not ISP's. They are just some login on some other ISP dialup like UUnet or whatever. Can you believe this shit? Their entire company is based on some piece of software that displays banner ads on peoples' desktops. They must be making a shitload of money, cause their costs are almost zero. All they need is 8 or so employees, and some kid in the back to maintain the client program, mostly just making changes to stop people from killing the ad. This d00d probably makes like $200,000/yr. I know people who probably work twice the ammount of hours and get about 10 percent of that. Then you have fuckers like 1stup.com, they make some 'shell' program, so other companies can have their own 'free isp'. Dammit this world sucks, I should kill myself now.
Nevermind, I need to have a little fun before I self-terminate. c-ya later.
prior art MS and Porn? (Score:1)
And porn sites obviously popup windows too.
-Daniel
Re:NetZero are boneheads (Score:1)
There is no long run difference between NetZero not keeping up with the cracking and only keeping up with the apperance of cracking. If advertisers are finding they are seeing revenues from that advertising medium, they will pull their ads or pay less. What people don't realize is that advertisers aren't paying for a view, they are paying for a purchase (whether it is immediate or because of "presence"). Every small business article I've read focuses on figuring out how many people click through, and how many clickthroughs purchase, and then using that as a basis for how much you should spend on advertising. Companies aren't stupid when it comes to things like this.
The only people being cheated by ad cracks are the people using the site. The advertisers don't pay more in the long run, they just adjust their prices downward, eventually making the entire advertising medium unviable.
Re:Who decides if ideas are obvious? (Score:1)
Do people even look at what is patented?
Popcorn boxes, paper bags, different types of cd holders, some types of paper towels, some types of pens that are VERY similar to other types of pens.
Not even counting software patents there's much more stupid/obvious patents for tangable stuff.
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Re:On the positive side.... (Score:1)
That's like saying that rollerblades can't be patented because of roller skates. Same with other very similar devices that are patented.
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Re:On the positive side.... (Score:1)
They were the first to use it.
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Goodbye Juno! Goodbye NetZero! (Score:1)
God forbid that either of them use their money to improve their product or anything. Sheesh.
Haiku (Score:1)
Juno pops up ads
NetZero wants to sue them
Free ISPs suck
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:1)
Re:they deserve to be sued (Score:1)
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:1)
*shivers in horror*
--Fesh
Re:Pop up ads becoming mainstream (Score:1)
heh.... (Score:1)
Wow... it only took... (Score:1)
2000-12-13 03:40:50 NetZero joins Bad Patent Club (articles,patents) (rejected)
Check out their press release...http://www.netzero.net/about_us/2000120
"In total, NetZero has more than 50 patents pending on technologies that help us offer innovative ways for advertisers to reach millions of NetZero users, while maintaining a high quality experience for those users."
Get that... FIFTY potential silly patents... well, I would say "hooray!" Netzero is going to wipe out advertising on the internet, but then the problem with that is that people will have to switch to a subscription model to make money. That is not good. 8(
Also from that press release:
"We believe this patent applies to the ad-delivery process used by many of our competitors for both targeted and untargeted advertisements and will provide NetZero with a significant competitive edge in this environment."
Get it straight, NetZero, most of your competitors bit the dust in the last month or two, and in doing so made it nearly impossible to log on to you, and also made things so hard on you, you had to CHANGE YOUR BUSINESS MODEL [netzero.net].
Remember CEOs of America: Competition is a good thing, Monopoly bad.
Now, everyone.. sing along.. it's a little ditty by Queen...
defenders of the free world? (Score:1)
So other ISPs will no longer be allowed to pop up ads if this goes through? Will AOL users be happier than pigs in shit? Or will AOL scrub all mention of this from their news sources and no one will be the wiser?
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Peace,
Lord Omlette
ICQ# 77863057
Hmmm... (Score:1)
Re:On a somewhat related note... (Score:1)
Hmm.. I just typed up an ultra-sarcastic, mean-spirited reply to this post, and Netscape crashed before I could send it. Maybe it's a sign that I shouldn't start a flame war over this (though it's probably deserved, you horrible, horrible person). The non-sarcastic version:
I didn't read any of the comments on this page. Nor on any of the other patent-related posts. I didn't realize that my comment was somewhat unoriginal. So there. Maybe now you can call off my execution, you rat bastard.
Even more silliness over patents (Score:1)
Patent on interactive TV [cnet.com]: How long have these sorts of ideas been around?
Patent on prepaid cellular plans [cnet.com]: Paying for something in advance -- what a novel concept!
*shrug* who cares? (Score:1)
Who cares who owns the patent for advertising pop-up windows from an ISP? it's actually a fairly narrow application, limited to ISP's only. How does this affect the consumer? If an ISP tries to pass on to their customers the licensing fees for pop-ups they pay to NetZero, they'll get priced out of the super-competitive market - I mean, how much consumer loyalty is there really to ISP's anyway? *especially* the free ones?
in principle, patents can be abused. But this one doesn't seem too bad nor a misuse - we shoudln't have a knee-jerk reaction to patents infringement suits. Making undue noise about this will detract from our community's reasonable and justofied outrage over far more subversive/abusive patents elsewhere that we need to educate the public about. This patent with NetZero is just a red herring.
Re:If it's so obvious? (Score:1)
Sorry, but stuping to the level of fools is no reason to do anything. What needs to happen is that fools submitting obvious patents get rejected, quickly.
It is a clear extention from displaying an ad on a website to displaying an ad from an ISP. There is NO innovation here. Does changing the context of the use of a tool constitute innovation? No. Using a hammer to kill the patent officer of Netzero instead of sinking nails isn't innovation.
And the folks on CNN wonder why tech stocks went bad...
Re:Where is the Prior Art? (Score:1)
I head that the fastest growing profession in the USA is the leagal profession. One wonders were things have gone wrong.
- subsolar
BTW I would love to do some beating with a Clue by Four ... just don't want to be sued myself!
Juno predates Netzero by several years (Score:1)
The prior art is in Juno itself,even if it could not be found elsewhere. Sheesh this is stupid.
Actually... (Score:1)
If that were true! (Score:1)
Re:The issue is intent, not patents. (Score:1)
Poor guy... Bush's brother already filed in Florida offices for a patent on Non-click shopping for elders. This apparatus allows senior people to buy travel tickets and fishing equipment by mean of a tactile screens that avoid the use of computer mouse.
I don't want to comment about his Apparatus for decoding voting intentions patent filing. It's offtopic.
--ricardo
Re:they deserve to be sued (Score:1)
The fun thing about doing support was the $14.95 per incident charge. The typical call went: "Oh you can't connect? that's 14.95. Now we have you connected you can't get mail? 14.95 please. And you need help with news groups? another 14.95........ ad infinitum
still debating..... (Score:1)
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I am Moldy.
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:1)
Re:Juno and NetZero both going down... (Score:1)
what is kellogs going do? (Score:1)
This is an example of... (Score:1)
Hopefully, someone else has patented 'resizing your browser to be unusefully large' and will start litigation soon.
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:1)
FP.
-- Real Men Don't Use Porn. -- Morality In Media Billboards
Re:they deserve to be sued (Score:1)
A dialog box with a 'don't open' button.
They sound too similar to me.
However you're right about the usefulness of a feature that lets one specify "don't open new windows for/from juno.com",
-- Real Men Don't Use Porn. -- Morality In Media Billboards
Re:Who decides if ideas are obvious? (Score:1)
"Anyone at all skilled in the art"
and
"Someone of ordinary skill in the art"
only differ by where you draw the line for the application of the adjective 'skilled'.
If you say the former I will simply tighten the requirements for the use of the word skilled. How does "one is not 'skilled' until awarded a professorship in that field at either Oxford or Cambridge University" sound? I'd let temporary visiting professors count, so that guys like Feynman could be called skilled at Physics.
So, how many angels do you think would fit?
FatPhil
-- Real Men Don't Use Porn. -- Morality In Media Billboards
Re:As you mention Microsoft OS (Score:2)
That lame paycheck isn't looking so good anymore huh?
MS has already ruined slashdot because a herd of cats will always be crushed by a organized and well funded attack by paid professional posters with a master plan. What MS did to slashdot will go in the annals of history as the most succesful attack on a community since the indians were wiped out with smallpox infected blankets. Like the earliest proponents of biological warfare MS knows that poison and disease are best spread as useful items and infiltrated into a society.
Re:Who decides if ideas are obvious? (Score:2)
Actually, I think the wording is more like, "someone of ordinary skill in the art." But you're right, you probably won't find anyone like that working in the patent office.
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:2)
kashani
Broadcast History & advertising - beleive it or no (Score:2)
That's right - once upon a time, selling radio time to advertisers was an exclusive, patented right owned by the Telco!
Not only that (and this relates to the slow deployment of DSL by CLEC's), the phone company owned the lines used to build a broadcasting network. RCA, who wanted to build a competing network, was not allowed to use phone lines - they had to use lower quality telegraph lines for audio feed. This, plus the inability to develope the business side by its being prevented from selling commercial time to advertisers, the vigorous competition which RCA might have offered was hampered.
Re:Tragedy of the commons (Score:2)
other than the need for 32 phone lines, modems, and serial ports to connect them to? nothing, i guess.
"Anybody have any experience with how busy their modem bank is?"
i believe they have a fairly large modem pool; i've used their tacoma dialup 4 or 5 times, and it was only busy once. so i just used the other tacoma number, and got on immidiately.
i guess they block port 25 when you connect as "guest" now, because of spammers abusing the service. but i haven't heard about any other abuses of their service.
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screw them both... (Score:2)
they have dialups for washington, oregon, new york, and puerto rico, and are planning on nationwide access Real Soon Now(tm). here's [nocharge.com] the list.
they charge for tech support, which is how they hope to make a profit. dunno how long they'll last, but it's decent while it's around.
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Coincidence? I don't think so... (Score:2)
M$ would have to get out of the "'shirk'wrap" business and into something that's long-term and sustainable. It'll be "Back-side to the Future"
actually, didn't prodigy use popup ads? (Score:2)
Didn't that interface have "pop-up" ads? Anyone remember?
Say, anyone remember HBBS for the Apple II? just thought I'd throw that out there
W
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Re:Dont get too excited... (Score:2)
Note, these days almost any website that provides a service is considered an ISP (at least in DMCA terms). This includes all the free-webpage sites like Xoom and Geocities -- er, I mean NBCi and Yahoo... sigh... I miss good ol' Xoom.
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Re:NetZero are boneheads (Score:2)
Pop up ads becoming mainstream (Score:2)
Free isp idea (Score:2)
Re:Sick of it (Score:2)
Ugh. http://www.comp-u-geek.net is the worst.
patenting usage of the do.. loop? (Score:2)
I mean this is like patenting doing 'xy' in a do loop in fortan because 'we did it first in a do loop'. Or like patenting the display of ads in graphical form (as gif) on a web-browser. The functionality to do just that (not specifically with ads but with anything) was provided by the developpers of javascript/html. The functionality of popping up additional windows was probably even developped with ads in mind.
If they get that patent someone should go and patent the idea of using gifs/etc. for advertising altogether, to show just how ridiculous it all is. As an afterthought: i hope they get this patent, i hate that popping up advertisement windows anyway (so much, i almost always switch off javascript)
Obligatory Cue:Cat Slam (Score:2)
Hey... (Score:2)
See this for what it is. (Score:2)
In the end, this will not keep NetZero out of the bankruptcy courts. Perhaps some Linux millionaire could pick up the patents cheap after bankruptcy, just to prevent anyone else from using this obnoxious business model?
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:2)
I sense the need for a new moderation "flavor":
Unless the above was an unwitting recasting of an unforgettable Simpsons Halloween sequence [snpp.com].
"Stupid bug! You go squish now!"
Hooray for NetZero (no, really) (Score:2)
Ironic, isn't it? (Score:2)
I love the mock "testifying" before congress that the Internet should be free... and that they actually have "Defenders of the Free World" trademarked... "defenders of our left nut" is more appropriate for them.
Re:This isn't about Pop-UP Windows (Score:2)
This isn't about Pop-UP Windows (Score:2)
Re:Who decides if ideas are obvious? (Score:2)
It would seem to me that the arbiter of that decision should be the average man in the street. Although it such matters may seem obvious to the /. community, they is by no means obvious to the common man. Isn't that what really matters?
No! Of course not. The man on the street is a moron. I've met him. Lots of times.
If it has to be obvious to the man on the street, then I should be able to patent using two web browser windows at the same time to look at two different sites. The man on the street wouldn't know you could do this.
Or, I could patent looking at pornography on the internet. OK, so the man on the street would know you could do this.
Most patents are technical. You need a technical audience to evaluate them.
Re:Netzero a bit strapped for cash? (Score:2)
Riiiiight... nothing like charging some of your customers $9.95 a month to become the dominant force in the free ISP game.
Who decides if ideas are obvious? (Score:2)
It would seem to me that the arbiter of that decision should be the average man in the street. Although it such matters may seem obvious to the /. community, they is by no means obvious to the common man. Isn't that what really matters?
Furthermore, another quibble I have is with the allegations that Amazon et al are behaving in a morally incorrect manner by seeking to get these patents granted. If there is a fault, that fault is with the patent office, not with companies that are merely trying to maximise their revenue stream. If I were a shareholder at Amazon, I would be extremely annoyed if Amazon refused to seek these patents.
So I plead with you: blame the government and the patent office, because in this matter any faults are theirs, and theirs alone.
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:2)
> patent that concept since they didn't
> even come up with it.
Did Amazon.com come up with one click shopping? They have the patent for it!
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:2)
Then I'll patent stars, and sue the RIAA for royalties from every song they've published that refers to stars.
They should both be sued... (Score:2)
Well, wait, I shouldn't complain since I refuse to visit sites that use pop-ups, maybe it should just be a class action suit.
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:2)
Re:Yep...It's the Republicians fault... (Score:3)
Clinton was president for EIGHT YEARS! Why didn't he do something?
Cause he would have to get Congress to actually make a law to undo the damage they already did. Not bloody likely. He probably didn't pay much attention to the patent issue really. If the political will isn't there, and the people aren't bitching at you on a fairly large scale, it's not gonna get done.
Now, it's true that the Republicans DID turn the PTO into a profit center. They cut it off and told it that it had to earn its own bread. That was moronic. The patent office shouldn't be encouraged to grant patents in order to ensure its own solvency. It's supposed to grant those patents that are deserving and no more. That should require that it hire competent examiners and do thorough research. That costs money. That's the price of our patent system. Unfortunately, the PTO does not hire competent examiners (or at least none with the skills required to evaluate software-related patents), does not do thorough research before granting a patent, and is constantly trying to expand the realm of what can be patented (which is certainly not their role). All the Republicans did was create a mess of conflicts of interest, that happen to make it easy to get a patent on any stupid software trick you care to name.
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:3)
I wonder what Microsoft would think about when someone else patents what boilds down to a simple set of calls to their OS?
I think it was a "feature" or a "bug" that was introduced somewhere by Netscape anyways to allow pop-ups to be called by a web page anyways, how different is that?
I haven't been much of a defender or a detractor of the patent system, I now think it definitely needs an overhaul.
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:3)
If Netzero wins, they'll be the only ones that will be able to pop up adds for free. They'll likely licence the idea (yes, that's ridiculous). End result: Netzero makes a lot of money and companys will have to make bigger ads to pay for the ability to display them.
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:3)
If I were to make a time machine and used a Black & Decker toaster oven at the core of it, I should be able to patent this time machine even though only some or possibly none of the raw materials were actually manufactured by me, Black & Decker should have no control over my time machine (in the same way that the company that supplies steel to Black & Decker should have no control over the items that their steel is used to make). Similarly, if I use calls to Microsoft's OS in a new and innovative way, Microsoft was just the supplier of the raw materials (figuratively speaking, of course) for my software and shouldn't have any special rights over it.
It aint worth it (Score:3)
Netzero a bit strapped for cash? (Score:3)
Then again, as they have it in their budget to launch a television advertising campaign, perhaps they are not as close to going broke as some of the other free isps which now lie dead are...
Ibag
Where is the Prior Art? (Score:3)
This is just as silly as that british company suing Prodigy for the use of hyperlinks, claiming that they invented it, even though prior art is demonstrated on video going back into the 60s (I think)
Someone needs to beat this guys with a clue by four. There are to many lawyers with to much time on their hands.
Bright Idea:
Everyone who wants to be a corporate lawyer has to be sterilized first.
Re:Who decides if ideas are obvious? (Score:3)
Re:Dont get too excited... (Score:3)
Well Microsoft is an ISP (MSN). Does that mean they can't use pop up ads in their software products? Because like someone said earlier, Windows has ads when you install it.
And what about AOL? They've been doing pop up ads (outside of a browser) with their software far longer than NetZero has.
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:3)
Guess they didn't have enough balls to sue AOL, the king of the annoying ISP log-on pop up ads.
Not to mention the fact that AOL's been doing this at least 10 years before NetZero ever came into existance. Why is it that that USPTO grants these things without ANY effort at verifying their claims? What, do they take their word for it? If that's the case I think I'll patent the wheel.
Dont get too excited... (Score:4)
Note, it ONLY says the patent is for ISP's. That leaves all your non-isps on the web to pop up any banners they want.
Juno sued Netzero a while back (Score:4)
Is the use of salt as a food flavoring obvious? (Score:5)
Prior art? Never heard of it!
Research? I doan even reed da formz!
Boss says I got a quota to make. I don't care if I have to patent breathing. My Christmass bonus is based on how many I get out the door so hand me my rubber stamp and don't get betwen me and the ink pad.
Re:On the positive side.... (Score:5)
According to the article, they patented the technology for an ISP to display a popup ad, the popups you see all over the place are from websites and (i hope) not from your ISP.
NetZero are boneheads (Score:5)
This has the unavoidable effect of screwing over the less with-it customers of NetZero, who get caught in the "I upgraded to 3.1, but it doesn't work, and I can't go back to 3.0, so what do I do?" They used to tell people to re-install Bindows... until they realized that most people will be completely up the creek, without disks to reinstall their appz.
So now they just pass the buck and pretend there is not problem. Which is hard when you a) can't get a net connection anymore, b) don't have any alternate connection, and c) don't have the original software on disk. And they don't want to send out thousands of CDs to people, either.
I'm just glad I don't have to do phone support for these boneheads.
On the positive side.... (Score:5)
If Netzero wins, no one but Netzero will be able to pop up adds.
Horay! Now I no longer need junkbuster! [junkbuster.com]