Nazis on Napster 290
Germany bans much material of this type. Even old Nazi propaganda films cannot be shown except in strictly regulated educational contexts. For a scholarly, in-depth examination of how real propaganda can be effectively used to educate -- and a call for its deregulation -- I recommend my late friend Stig Hornshøj-Møller, writing about Der ewige Jude ("The Eternal Jew," a 1941 propaganda film created by Hitler and Goebbels).
Censorship of Nazi expression ultimately comes from a fear that it is seductive and may influence its audience. I've listened to a sampling of racist, Nazi music and it's not likely to reach a huge audience just because it's on Napster. It's the worst music I've ever heard. Even if I could ignore the lyrics, I think I'd prefer "Achy Breaky Heart" on infinite replay. For some reason, racist imbeciles don't make good musicians, go figure. A ban is entirely unnecessary: it really just draws attention to what would otherwise be overwhelmingly ignored.
And just for completeness, here's a link to the Yahoo French auction ruckus. France demanded that Yahoo make it impossible for anyone within its (France's) borders to access an auction of Nazi-themed items. (Their own report found that this would work pretty well, excepting the minor fact that anyone who wanted to could circumvent it.)
Great... (Score:1)
Oh, you want to listen to an unsigned band? TOUGH! They arent signed to BMG. You cant trade it.
Thats the kind of stronghold record labels want.
Thats why they fear Napster and Mp3's.
If artists can make a $ without the label, the label goes out of business. Boo hoo.
Re:Nazi music?? (Score:1)
actually, yes. I would highly recommend checking out both of these nazi bands:
backstreet boys [backstreetboys.com]
-or-
n sync [nsync.com]
I believe that both bands are actually advocating nazi ideas and concepts to the young minds of america. I'd dig up the lyrics to prove it but I don't have much time...
Re:Responsibility and censorship (Score:1)
What does this have to do with censorship? (Score:1)
Clue 1: censorship, as defined in the US, is by the government.
Clue 2: Walmart sells more music than any other business in the world, they are also highly selective in what CDs they sell, which ones the advertise for, where they place them. Try and find a Public Enemy CD in a Walmart. Try to find Sheryl Crow CDs in Walmart. This has gone on since Walmart has sold CDs, why no complaints?
I also think that the technology is there to stop it. It is stupid to not think it is possible. Now it's doubtful that napster has the talent to produce it but I'm positive it can be done. There have been virus scanners for years, for years and years they have detected polymorphic viruses and encrypting viruses. The same basic ideas apply to MP3s. You could probably produce a tool that analyzed a song, produced a "signature" for it and then could detect similar ones on other songs with a couple semesters of grad student time. Does it qualify as "easy" ? probably not but it's silly to think it's not possible and false positives don't matter so much if they are infrequent.
I don't think it is right to hide information. I think Nazis should be allowed to share their propaganda and let their stupidity be seen by the world but I also think it is entirely within their rights and I think it is ethical for a business like Napster or Walmart to protect their image and control what kinds of information they propagate. They owe it to their investors and stockholders.
??? (Score:1)
Re:Playing devil's advocate here... (Score:1)
Ummm....you know where the word "slave" comes from? Slav. I.e., most of the people who currently inhabit eastern Europe. Whites have been enslaved and imported from Europe to North Africa and the Middle East for thousands of years. Back maybe 30-40 years ago, a farmer in Britain was plowing a field and accidently found a long chain of slave collars from the Roman era (when slaves were one of Britain's biggest exports). It's been going on a long time. In fact, a large portion of the early population of colonial America were white slaves: not just those euphemistically called "indentured servants" but people who were kidnapped, press ganged, sold, shipped out, and then often worked to death. Try Hoffman's "They Were White And They Were Slaves" here [stormfront.org] or here [apopulistreview.com]. Other links are below.
Nor should you fall for the line that this was just something that whites did to other whites, or that Middle Easterners, Arabs, etc., did to whites or others. No, blacks and "asians" (whatever that means) may not have had the opportunity to enslave whites, but they have done lots of other nasty things. Of course, don't expect the media or academia to draw your attention to these un-PC facts.
http://odinslounge.techgold2000.com/ [techgold2000.com]
http://www.propatria.org/findex.htm [propatria.org]
http://www.resistance.com/ [resistance.com]
http://www.whitepride.com/ [whitepride.com]
http://www.panzerfaust.com/ [panzerfaust.com]
http://www.ddc.net/ygg/ [ddc.net]
http://www.stormfront.org/ [stormfront.org]
http://www.natall.com/ [natall.com]
http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/ [vanguardnewsnetwork.com]
Re:A Simple Solution (Score:1)
Re:nazi bands??? (Score:1)
As much as I am against censorship of the Internet, the sad reality in a country where democracy is not as stable as in the U.S. (true only for East Germany which lived under fascist and stalinist dictatorship from 1933 to 1990) makes me wonder whether libertarian truisms will help.
Sven
Re:better since 1998 (Score:1)
www.ihr.org [ihr.org]
Anyone who spends an hour on this site, or a few hours reading decent articles posted on alt.revisionism, will soon learn that it is not Irving, Butz and Cole that are the Nazis, it isa the likes of Simon Wiesenthal that are.
And they are NOT denying the Holocaust(tm), they are saying three things (mainly):
Read with an open mind and you'll be surprised.
For anyone really interested in this, but Butz's book, "The Hoax of The Twentieth Century". Everything is referenced to a high degree (unlike books that dispute this, such as the ones from Lipstadt). Get the book from Loompanics.
And for what it's worth, some of the "Deniers" are even jews themselves (i.e. David Cole).
Another book of interest that was recently published (Butz's was originally printed in the 70s), is Fincklesteins one on *why* the jews promote the Holocaust(tm).
Re:One huge lawsuit... (Score:2)
I feel so disillusioned.
--White Guy from the Suburbs
Re:Come on, get the article right... (Score:2)
Re:Liberty in the US vs. liberty in Germany (Score:1)
Communist propaganda isn't allowed if it tries to destroy Democracy. The German Communist Party has been forbidden in the 1960s because of that.
It was Communism that was the main anti-democratic concern between 1950 and 1990. Now it is the ultra right-winged parties since they have gained popularity espacially in Eastern Germany and with young unemployed people.
It is the very peculiar history of Germany that "forces" us to have a close view at anything related to the Third Reich. For example, it is forbidden to deny that millions of Jews (and other people) were murdered in concentration camps (this is also known as the "Auschwitz-Lie")
But on the other hand Europe is a lot more liberal in other parts, so I think it is not appropriate for US Americans to critisize these laws as long as there is death penalty and such stupid things.
SebastianWe must defend Nazis to attack Nazism (Score:3)
--
those poor Europeans (Score:1)
The Germans ban Nazi stuff, the French ban cults. When are they going to learn?
I shouldn't gloat too much though, without the Supreme Court the Puritans would have taken over this country years ago.
German Law and Napster (Score:1)
BMG doesn't want to get problems under their home law, especially now that they're an interested 3rd party on what's happening in Napster. But Napster is a US company, so they're not obligated to follow the German law!
Maybe we NEED an modus vivendi between US and Euro laws...
And yes, we shall never forget the millions of Jews, gitanos, homosexuals or even plain oppositors of the Nazi tyranny.
Remember what Germany did with MS... (Score:2)
But between this and the Yahoo/France thing, we've got several cases that are testing how well national boundaries can extend into the internet (we all know they can't, but that's besides the point).
Re:nazi bands??? (Score:1)
For more info see the
Sourthern Poverty Law Center [splcenter.org]
the Anti Deffimation League [adl.org]
And others. so called white power music is on the rise and scares the crap out of me at least.
The cure of the ills of Democracy is more Democracy.
Re:Thank Lenin! (Score:1)
Re:A Simple Solution (Score:2)
I totally agree to our claim about laws to be enforced across borders being bad. But you didn't realize that the US set the beginning of this trend.
I'm for equality; I think it's bad when we do something like that, and I think it's bad when someone else does the same.
I was truely amazed when a plane I took from Equador to Miami after a vacation, all passengers and the whole plane was turned upside down in search of drug by US agents on foreign soil.
The difference, as I see it, is that Germany is insisting that the plane be searched before it's ever allowed to take off from Equador. That is the part that I don't like.
While I don't think it's good for a government to restrict what its citizens can view or listen to, that's between the people and their leadership. I would feel otherwise if Germany were a dictatorship, but they're not; Germans have the right to elect their own anti-censorship government if they want. Therefore, Germany can do whatever they want to within their own borders, for all I care. They just shouldn't expect people outside their borders to agree and go along with their ideals.
If I owned Napster, I'd be pretty angry. If I had wanted to be subject to German laws, I'd move there.
Re:This is the problem not the solution (Score:2)
I think they figure they're protecting the rest of the world. Consider what must be going through their heads: They caused two world wars, they tried to cause the extinction of a race of people, they almost 0wn3d the planet and committed unspeakable atrocities along the way. They're aware of their capacity to wreak havoc on the global stage, and are TERRIFIED that if they allow any kind of Nazi group to take root, it could all happen again. Or maybe they're trying to assure the rest of the world, by publicly going after this kind of material, that they're taking steps to make sure it doesn't happen again.
I'm not saying they're right. In my head it plays a bit too much like "protect the children." But I'm just saying there's a reason for this.
How About The Beatles? (Score:1)
Or maybe not. Because as we all know, nothing before 1970 was offensive. *cough*.
---
seumas.com
The Magic Program (Score:1)
Re:One huge lawsuit... (Score:1)
Yes, actually, I do. What part of "free" don't you understand? Don't trot out straw men like "fire in a crowded theater" - Oliver Wendell Holmes later bemoaned the fact that his phrase is so frequently misused by people making the point you are (trying to) now.
-j
Next! (Score:2)
GG Allin [chebucto.ns.ca]'s magnum opus, "Kill Thy Father, Rape Thy Mother"?
Or anything at all by Anal Cunt [telia.com]?
"Everyone should know of all information that others have deemed unfit for public knowledge."
First.... (Score:2)
First they came for the Nazis, and I didn't speak up because I don't like Nazis.
Then they came for the Klan, and I didn't speak up because I really hate the Klan.
Then they came for the record companies, and I didn't speak up because I hate them too.
Then they came for Microsoft, and I didn't speak up because I hate Microsoft.
Then they came for me, and nobody spoke up because the culture that hates everything in the name of keeping society safe found something about me that they didn't like.
Re:Big business and online music. (Score:1)
Big difference. Jews are usually born Jews, and usually don't fantasize about beating the crap out of innocent people.
Uh huh. Sure.
ObJectBridge [sourceforge.net] (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.
Re:nazi bands??? (Score:2)
sniff sniff...oh dude...that was beautiful...
ObJectBridge [sourceforge.net] (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.
Re:Big business and online music. (Score:2)
I'm pretty familiar with what Nazis and other white supremacists believe and I think they're all nuts. There is nothing special about white people except that an awful lot of white people seem to control most of the money and can't get out of their suburban hives to save their lives. There is no logical end to a program of racial purity except the homogenization of the gene pool, which is pretty much doomed to failure anyway. White culture is a myth; it is divided deeply into about two dozen different cultures, just as are Asian and Hispanic culture. The only reason why Black culture is so homogenized in the US is because slavery stripped the black people of their cultural identity; as a result they have created a new, uniquely American culture out of whole cloth, and every American is better off for it.
Still, I think it would be humorous to give white supremacists...all of them...a homeland of their own, and watch the Christian Identity and KKK people fight it out with the worshipers of Odin Somefather a real "Holy War." Then maybe the rest of us, with more tolerance for differences and more common sense, will get along better.
ObJectBridge [sourceforge.net] (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.
Re:Big business and online music. (Score:2)
I might just take up that challenge. I could use $50k. But will IHR take the evidence seriously? Based on the other things I read on their website, IHR strikes me as an organization with a most definite agenda...
The simplest proof, of course, would be a chemical analysis of the area surrounding Auchwitz for proof of the existance of the ovens (for example, high carbon content in the deeper layers of soil) followed by an analysis of residue from the ovens and gas chambers themselves. Start with a null hypothesis that the ovens are *not* used to cremate corpses, or that the so-called gas chambers did use Zyklon B, and go from there. OTOH I strongly suspect that none of this would be sufficient proof for the IHR.
ObJectBridge [sourceforge.net] (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.
Big business and online music. (Score:4)
First, came online music, which allowed anyone to put their music (or for that matter somebody else's music) out there for public consumption, regardless of the market potential.
Then, came the shotgun marriage of the music industry with online music; which led to the protection of music copyrights while still allowing people to put their music out there for public consumption, regardless of the market potential.
Now, the music industry is moving beyond legitimate protection of their intellectual property, into the realm of controlling what music other people can distribute.
We had to see this coming. The old media want to provide "editorial supervision" of online content, precisely because they make money off of controlling what's popular. Banning Nazi music is only the first step.
Don't get me wrong. I hate Nazis. They're nutcases, provably wrong, violent stupid thugs lacking any shred of sense, dignity, or humanity. There was a time I'd as soon beat one up as talk to one. If Naziism were wiped off the planet I'd be one very happy human being. They have as much right to free expression as we do, and we all lose when free expression is put under corporate control.
ObJectBridge [sourceforge.net] (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.
censorship ineffective and counter-productive (Score:3)
The problem is as much social as political. The neo-nazis were able to instill themselves into the youth culture by tapping into their hitherto repressed national identity (remember that communism subsumed national identity in the satelite nations to the "world communist revolution"), their discontent, and the youthful rebelliousness that is a trait of every generation.
The solution is to offer an alternative that is equally rebellious, allows expression of one's discontent, etc. Not an easy task, but doable. Remember, what's cool in 2000 will look terribly dated in 2010 -- unless nothing is present to displace what was big in 2000.
Censorship just makes neo-nazism appear even cooler in the eyes of the rebellious (which is a huge chunk of any youthful generation) -- how many people here downloaded DeCSS because of efforts to ban it, but have never even bothered to unpack the tarball? I have, multiple times in multiple locations, as I'm sure many thouands of others did. The same phenomenon is true of neo-nazi music (and most things in life, actually) -- ban it and it flourishes all the more. Don't ban it, but speak out against it and emphesize how uncool, idiotic, unsophisticated, and passe it is (come on, the philosophy was a dead end sixty years ago!), and while you won't eliminate it it will lose much of its luster and return to its status of a psychotic fringe element (which every society has and most manage to cope with reasonably well) while the youthful masses move on to the new, cool thing (whatever that is).
Censorship isn't just wrong. It is ineffective, counterproductive, and bought at far too high a cost.
Re:Wait...! (Score:1)
As others have posted, Wagner died in 1883, and _Parsifal_, his last opera, was finished in 1882.
~wog
dubious provenance (Score:2)
I'm not defending Wagner so much as I am defending scholarship. It is fine to produce a monograph which seeks to prove that Wagner's every motivation was based on antisemitism, and only cites other sources which back up this claim, ignoring a great deal of other Wagner scholarship, but it is foolish to read this monograph and no differing viewpoints.
BTW, to see why you shouldn't hyphenate "antisemitism", click here [huji.ac.il]. According to that page (with which I am inclined to agree), hyphenating "antisemitism" basically means that you think "Semitic" is meaningful, and that defamation of Jews is based on "their race," which is a worrisome (at best) stance to take.
~wog
Re:The only way this could be done. . . (Score:2)
Re:Nazis and music (Score:2)
It is odd that many of the greatest (and most nationalistic) composers in the German-speaking world have been Jewish, given the German-speaking world's history of antisemitism (especially in musical circles).
Mendelssohn, for example, whose father had assimilated, saved J.S. Bach's works from obscurity and wrote wonderful Lutheran church and art music, including the incredible "Reformation Symphony". (As a practicing Lutheran, I can vouch for his authenticity of expression and doctrine.) Gustav Mahler, who assimilated, was attacked for his "sensual Semitic ultramodernism" even though his brilliant music was far more conservative of Germanate tradition than that of his Gentile contemporary, Richard Strauss. Both Mendelssohn and Mahler's works were outlawed in Nazi Germany.
The list goes on and on...German culture has been saved, preserved, and perfected by Jews so many times that it is completely incomprehensible how such a pandemic antisemitism could exist for so long.
Re:Wait...! (Score:4)
Hitler mainly liked Wagner because his music was so nationalist, and he (like nearly everyone else in the German-speaking world of the 19th century) failed miserably to rise above the prevailing antisemitism of his day.
Wagner is a very complicated character; he wrote some terribly obscene essays (i.e. "Das Judentum in Musik", which was actually a criticism of Meyerbeer and French Ope'ra), but he actively opposed fascism and religious persecution. The central influence in Wagner's philosophy was not antisemitism, as many are wont to claim, but rather an amalgam of Schopenhauer, early Nietzsche (don't even get started about _Will to Power_, which was written by Nietzsche's sister and which most scholars agree is antithetical to Nietzsche's philosophy), Buddhism and medieval mysticism.
~wog
(Yeah, I'm a CS grad, but I had music history and philosophy majors as an undergrad.)
Re:The only way this could be done. . . (Score:4)
Wagner's music is not hateful or defamatory. Some critical theorists have tried to demonstrate that it is, but most explanations I've seen don't hold as much water as they would need to. If you want to see real "Nazi opera", look at the works of Hans Pfitzner [komponisten.at], whose sole goal in life was to be the court composer to the Third Reich.
Wagner is slowly gaining acceptance in Israel, but Hitler's near-fetishistic obsession with some of Wagner's music (like the Tannhauser overture, which Wagner insisted wsa played whenever he entered a room) has left a lasting tarnish on Wagner in many eyes. Look at this article [jrep.com] in Jerusalem Report. While it contains some factual inaccuracies about Wagner's music, it presents some interesting counterpoints from Wagner opponents and Wagner defenders.
Re:We must defend Nazis to attack Nazism (Score:2)
In fact, i think one needs to be exposed to a balanced diet of love speech and hate speech. Only then can one hope to understand his/her fellow human beings. Censorship helps to block that understanding. It in a sense promoting another type of hate: The hate of those who hate, which in turn makes those who hated in the first place feel justified... This subject reminds me of the scene in clockwork orange when the priest argue that the humble narrator (i forgot his name...) isn't really cured since he did not choose to refrain from commiting violent acts, but is compelled to do so by forces out of his control.
Re:Playing devil's advocate here... (Score:3)
Ghengis Khan comes to mind, but Asians really have never enslaved whites primarily due to the dramatic geographic boundaries seperating Europe and the far East (I'm presuming that by Asian you mean Chinese, Japanese, et al). By the time Europeans and Asians had any meaningful, frequent contact the Europeans had overwhelming military superiority and were traveling to Asia. By the same token, Europeans dominated Asians militarily and economically but never "enslaved" them in any strict sense of the word. The same goes for Blacks; the Sahara desert made a significant geographic barrier to any sub-Saharan/European contact which would have resulted in a slave trade. The slave trade between Africa and the Americas was largely a "modern" phenomenon and was also was wholly controlled on the supply side by Africans, who had been enslaving each other for centuries.
For a commentary on the domination of Europeans by Arabs, I ask you to look at the history of the Balkan and Southeastern region of Europe, as well as Moorish occupation of Spain for examples.
Much of the "non-white racial pride" is pure fantasy propegated by Western liberals. Ethnic unity among Blacks, Asians, Arabs simply does not exist. Africa is quite possibly one of the most fractured regions in the world. Ask yourself who perpetrated the slaughter in Rwanda -- it certainly wasn't White on Black. Asia again is another example -- find me some Manchurian or Koreans who have good things to say about the Japanese, particularly those who lived through the Japanese occupations. Indian subcontinant? Nope, not there -- Pakistanis and Indians. And let's not forget the warm relations between the Malays and the Chinese, Fijians and Indians and so on.
The truth is that Whites hardly have a corner on racism. Other races are as racist if not more so than Whites, especially when its not directed at Whites.
Toolmaker not responsible (Score:2)
It's really no different than the piracy issue. Is the entity that creates a tool for sharing (whether it's Napster, ftpd, Apache, etc) responsible if the users of that tool happen to use it to share illegal or distasteful files?
If Napster caves in on this Nazi issue, then they are accepting responsibility for everything that all Napster users do.
---
Re:A Simple Solution (Score:2)
Ever heared of Super 101 ? Or have flown from some Latin American countries to the US? I was truely amazed when a plane I took from Equador to Miami after a vacation, all passengers and the whole plane was turned upside down in search of drug by US agents on foreign soil.
The US penalizes countries that don't cooperate or have laws that the US doesn't like with trade barriers, boycotting international conferences in that country or bulling with veto rights in UN or snatching criminals across the border with (para-)military action. This clearly violates other countries sovereignity.
And if Napster doesn't cooperate, they won't be allowed to operate inside German borders. It's as simple as that. And Napster being now a German-owned company, it doesn't seem they are asking to enforce their laws across borders. That Nazis in the US (where such racisst activity is legal and common) can't download the Music, because it's banned for German Users, that's a just a unfortunate (though welcome) side-effect
# And yes, I have seen many people with tons of Nazi-shit on Napster
# Is there any client for Linux that can put people on a kill-list ?
But it does apply.. (Score:2)
"2. What happens if we're actually talking about Nazis?
hen you've already invoked Godwin's Law, and the chances are that your thread isn't going to last all that much longer as a sane discussion.
Them's the breaks."
Re:One huge lawsuit... (Score:2)
Re:Big business and online music. (Score:2)
Re:Playing devil's advocate here... (Score:2)
Ever heard of a bunch known as the Japanese? A bunch who disregarded the Geneva conventions and used US & British soldiers as slaves?
Perh. you've not studied your history--just about everyone has enslaved just about everyone. Christianity spread to England because a Pope of Rome saw some Angles being sold. There was quite a vigourous slave trade among the Arabs. The Vikings enslaved those they conquered.
We just managed to turn scientific and advanced before everyone else, expanded rapidly, and won. It's not that we're any more evil and nasty than any other race--we're all men, and we're all rotten to one another.
We may have subjugated the world, but we also freed it, you know...
Napster - The Business Entity (Score:5)
Napster has always been a business entity - the deal with BMG was struck for that very reason. Shawn Fanning, the cap-wearing GenY-er who is always prominent in the Napster media stories barely owns a couple of percent of Napster, Inc. They just trot him out to promote a 'cool' image, for obvious reasons: lots of people will side with Napster as long as they see them as being some plucky underdogs giving music for free to be shared amongst kids who look just like good ol' Shawn.
Reality check. Napster's owned and run by a bunch of your typical faceless suit-wearing executives. They run Napster not because they want to share music for free with college kids, but because they hold the keys to the Napster user database, and through that a distribution model that could destroy the business model of many record companies.
So Napster's not a business entity now that they struck a deal with BMG. They struck the deal so they could get a brief break from legal feuding, and present a more friendly face to all those judges. Now they can legitimately claim that they really want to make deals with record companies, and that they're the good guys. It also split the RIAA, with one of their biggest suporters suddenly going renegade. Next time Hank Barry (CEO) and Shawn Fanning (Founder) are interviewed, or sit in front of a judge, they can shrug helplessly and smile, pointing at how they struck a deal with BMG: why then don't all of the other companies want to co-operate?
So please - cut all the pro-napster propaganda. Those guys are out to make money, and the reason why Napster's still free is because every hour they don't charge, they sign up another 1000 guys and put them in their database. If and when they ever go 100% commercial, at least a dozen of those thousand/hour WILL sign up... and that's a couple dozen million bucks a month for Napster, Inc.
And hey, look - they got the customers, and deals with record labels, too. Swell, eh?
Alex T-B
St Andrews
Re:This is nonsense (Score:2)
That was from the original post on slashdot. You say that they've taken the next step of declaring this stuff harmful. Guess what, its the same thing. Attacks on porn are also often made using the excuse that it too is "harmful." It all boils down to the same thing, a person or group attempting to decide for the rest of us what we should see or hear. Sometimes I'm utterly amazed that people as a whole put up with it, but then I remember that most people are sheep.
I'm not a nazi and most porn frankly bores me. But I'll be damned if I'm going to put up with someone else trying to prevent me from viewing either kind of material. A free society depends on freedom of information, regardless of how offensive it is or how uncomfortable it might make some segments of the society.
Lee Reynolds
This is nonsense (Score:3)
Re:The only way this could be done. . . (Score:4)
Should Wagner be banned from Napster?
Re:Understandable Paranoia (Score:2)
"Amazingly Ignorant Of History" isn't one of the moderation choices, so "Funny" will have to do....
/.
Wait...! (Score:2)
If so (I am so lacking in this area), couldn't putting up a bit of music from this opera constitute going against what they are after...
OK, I know it is a stretch (to the breaking point) - I might not even have any of this right - someone correct me and mod me down if I am wrong...
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
Re:Wait...! (Score:2)
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
Strange Reaction (Score:3)
My favorite radio station, KFJC [kfjc.org], has a show by anti-fascist researcher Dave Emory [kfjc.org]. Now, I don't buy everything that Dave says, but he sure is interesting to listen to (I like conspiracy theories). One of the topics he covers very frequently is the "Bormann flight capital organization", which involves "Nazi in exile" Martin Bormann evacuating a lot of wealth from Germany, starting in 1944 -- apparently because the Nazis were anticipating a loss in the war and wanted to start up operations elsewhere. This ties in with the "South American Nazis" you may have heard about (or whose card you may have played in Illuminati! [sjgames.com] by Steve Jackson Games).
One thing that Dave Emory keeps talking about is the fact that Bertelsmann has been acquiring a great deal of the publishing industry. He seems to think that this is part of the Bormann organization's plans for worldwide fascism or something. Frankly, this is one area where Dave starts losing me -- I think he's too quick to connect things that are German with attempts to found the Fourth Reich (using economic conquest rather than military conquest).
So anyway, given the recent BMG partnership with Napster, I initially thought that the "Nazis on Napster" article might parallel some things I've heard on various Dave Emory programs. Life got just a little bit more surreal for a few seconds, until I started reading further.
Re:Strange Reaction (Score:2)
In Europe, in the older circles of ex intelligence agents cashing in as entrepreneurs doing security in the networking world, BMG is well known as a haven for ex-SS agents. Lots of them. Bertelsmann was known for picking up every SS agent as they were released from prison after the war crime trials in Nuremburg and offering them jobs. Much of the upper echelons of BMG were ex-SS officers and judges up through the 1970's and 80's, although most of the originals are retired or dead. The new crop are as right-wing as the old, but they are very careful to not tip their hand too often.
Bertelsmann survived the war almost completely intact. During the war, as a bonus for being such strong supporters of nazi-era ideas such as industry self-censorship (so the government didn't have to do it), they were awarded the spoils of all the other companies who tried to defy the third reich on its rise to power. During the war, all the publishers in occupied territories were forced into very lopsided business contracts, and many of those contracts were never reversed after the war. That left BMG as the most powerful publishing company in Europe.
This move, to ban controversial materials so the government doesn't have to step in, is exactly what Bertelsmann did from the late 20's until the end of the war. They are starting with banning something no reasonable person would object to, skinhead music. Once they get people settled with the idea that BMG is just doing this to protect society and youth and family values, they can easily move onto banning other kinds of music, such as hip-hop with violent lyrics, and my hopeful, Frank Sinatra karaoke.
As for the outflow of money, gold, and other capital starting in 1944, that is pretty well documented if you can go dig up the texts written by the various Marshall Plan economists who tried to track it down after the war. The reading is very dry, because economists are not novelists. Some capital was recovered, as hiding that much wealth was difficult, but some never was accurately identified, or else the searchers were blocked by corrupt South American governments.
the AC
Re:Big business and online music. (Score:5)
Just to emphasize a point that seems to agree with you, but was not emphasized.... we're not really free speech advocates until we fight to protect speech that we disagree with.
*bows*
--
Strangely Enough (Score:3)
--
Expanding on the previous reply, w. references (Score:2)
"
/ \ ASCII ribbon against e-mail
\ / in HTML and M$ proprietary formats.
X
/ \
Re:Come on, get the article right... (Score:2)
the difference with the example above re: IE and kiddie porn is that Napster is not only the client software but is also the search mechanism.
Come on, get the article right... (Score:3)
A good parallel to look into this would be eBay - they have people selling war relics, for historical/collectible value. Items at all connected to the Nazi party are prohibited for sale to users in these countries - I imagine they do some sort of lookup between keywords and user's details.
Certainly this isn't too difficult to evade if one is intent on it, but it covers their asses. And this is what it is about, Napster has to put in place some similar safeguard, for instance IP ranges which are not allowed to download songs with any such keywords in the title, or to force the user to set a country of residence in registration.
This won't fix the problem 100%, but if the countries want this as their law, they can't expect Napster et al to do all their work for them. I'm sure they know how to put their own content filters in place at their ISPs if they're serious about it
Fross
RIAA to the rescue? (Score:2)
In any case, I doubt most Slashdotter's are old enough to remember the PMRC and Tipper Gore (who was only a couple of hundred pregnant chads away from being the Frst Lady) of the late 80's and early 90's. The resolution, interestingly, was the RIAA who fought vigorously against music censorship, and Hilary Rosen herself won an award from the ACLU for defending the First Amendment.
Will the RIAA fight for this (BMG's membership notwithstanding)? Although there is a heck of a lot of fantastic music associated with the Nazi's (see first paragraph), it, unfortunately, is highly politically incorrect defend Nazi's in any manner.
Not all racists punished as equals (Score:3)
But How Would Napster Do This? (Score:2)
I can't see any practical solution for this, and if the German gov't and its courts require Napster to find a way to cease the exchange of hate music, I think its just going to wind up that German users can't use Napster.
Anyone else have a thought on this?
who cares? (Score:2)
ObTopic: Napster can censor whomever they feel like, no one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to download stuff using their software. Besides, Nazis are like child pornographers; they have no redeeming social value whatsoever. Good for them for censoring Nazis.
---
Santa Claus: "Ho ho ho!"
woowoo! Godwin's Law! (Score:5)
This discussion should be over pretty soon :)
---
Santa Claus: "Ho ho ho!"
Re:Responsibility and censorship (Score:5)
> that Napster or BMG have the right to censor any
> form of speech.
How is this censorship? People have debated this on Slashdot before, I believe. It's not censorship unless it comes from a government agency, merely because a business has such a limited control over you. At least, not in the sense most people here seem to take it; as if "the man" is stomping on your rights to have access to something you want.
Can't find it on Napster? Go look for a band's website. They don't have one? Go to music stores that carry a lot of underground labels. Failing that, go visit their shows.
If you object to the content a business makes available, or doesn't make available, it's really, really simple to fix: don't do business with them. Sure, Napster is a great tool, but they don't exactly hold a monopoly over the mp3 market. You have other channels of availability.
They have just as much a right to not give you something as you have a right to possess something.
Godwin's Law clarification (Score:2)
Tetris on drugs, NES music, and GNOME vs. KDE Bingo [pineight.com].
Responsibility and censorship (Score:3)
Personally, I feel the responsibility lies within each individual to censor the content that surrounds oneself. I don't like pro-nazi bands... no more than I like gangster rap... or modern country, but they ALL have the right to their freedom of speech and expression. Just because I don't like something or I find something offensive doesn't mean that it should be censored.
As a practicing Roman Catholic, I found Andres Serrano's "Piss Christ" offensive towards my beliefs, but I would never have wanted him censored.
Censorship is a form of oppression... like nazism.
Re:um first ammendment (Score:2)
You might be opposed to this, but I think this is a good thing.
Jeroen
grumble, grumble (Score:2)
The screaming people get together. Communities point at each other cry out "Get this obscene material off my internet!"
The communities band together. Countries elect officials who cry "Get this dangerous material off our internet!"
The countries finally notice each other, and realize that the internet is a global thing.
So countries start pointing at each other and screaming "You get off my internet!"
We're supposedly moving towards the one world government. We can't even deal with a simple little international network!
My mom is not a Karma whore!
The only way this could be done. . . (Score:4)
I can * name * a file anything I want.
And who determines just what is, and isn't a "Nazi song" anyway? Isn't "The Sound of Music" a "Nazi song?"
"Hitler has only got one ball?"
So, the whole thing is unenforcable, and possibly even undefinable.
Of course that never stops people, does it?
WTF? (Score:2)
Re:Strangely Enough (Score:2)
So was Mercedes-Benz. My grandfather, who is Dutch, was taken to a work camp when the Nazis occupied his town. A lot of his time in work camps was spent working in a Mercedes-Benz factory that was making engines and things for all sorts of Nazi vehicles.
One time, he and I were watching TV and a Mercedes commercial came on. He said, "They are good cars! I know, I used to work there". :)
One of the worst parts about having to work in the factories was that they were very important to the Germans. So of course they were favorite bombing targets of the Allies. Sucked to be my Grandpa... enslaved by the bad guys, and the GOOD GUYS are trying to bomb the shit out of the factory where he's working! Talk about feeling alone.....
http://www.bootyproject.org [bootyproject.org]
Clever tactics. (Score:2)
If you censor information by using a company that is in a different country than the one you are controlling, it greatly reduces the chance that the people you are censoring will ever even know that their government is in the censorship business.
1984? (Score:2)
-Giving the police a broader allowance to wire-tap. [slashdot.org]
-Carnivore doing more than what they say it is doing. (Everyones email?)
Sounds alot like 1984 is becomming more and more of a reality
This is the problem not the solution (Score:2)
Adherents of free speech have long held that they must tolerate those who's speech is objectionable in order to be heard themselves.
While the present German Government is undoubtedly more benign than its regrettable predecessors it seems they share an incapability of tolerating dissenting voices.
Nice piece jamie (Score:2)
Plus, it's got every popular slashdot element from the last 6 months... hmm we've got Napster, censorship, nazis, history... just throw in a link to Freenet in there somewhere and you're set
A Simple Solution (Score:4)
I fully understand and respect other country's rights to pass laws that may be in conflict with the laws of the USA.
However, their complaint goes way beyond that. They not only want us to respect their laws, but to enforce them as well. That's unacceptable.
There is a simple solution: they should simply pass laws making it illegal for their citizens to perform the actions they find objectionable.
Don't like Nazi songs on Napster? Make it illegal to download them. Don't like Nazi stuff on Yahoo? Make it illegal for the citizens to view the pages on Yahoo.
Enforcement, you say? That's their problem. If they want to make it illegal, then they should have the guts to put the responsibility on their own citizens, not on US companies. The US companies are not forcing the material down to the browser, the citizen has to request the material.
Come on, Germany and France. If you're going to pass censorship laws, then have the stomach to enforce them.
--
Re:It's Napster's responsibility, but... (Score:3)
um.. I done, you can stop reading...
Re:It's Napster's responsibility, but... (Score:3)
First, Napster does not "Harbour" any content. They facillitate, period. What you are proposing would lead to lawuits against any company even REMOTELY involved in the transfer of material through Napster/Gnutella/whatever.
Second, "There are laws which prohibit hate and racist content from websites, and therefore the ISPs must keep it off their servers or else face penalties" This is a pretty interesting statement. IANAL, but, the laws you refer to are not the same from country to country, and therefore are, for the most part, un-enforceable. Even if there were a U.N., or other global organization, standard (which there may be) it would not be enough. The ONLY way to resolve this issue is through education, not regulation.
um.. I done, you can stop reading...
Re:um first ammendment (Score:2)
Okay, lets assume not allowing discrimination is a "Good Thing". That means not allowing discrimination against discrimination is also a "Good Thing".
My point is that if you restrict peoples right to express their opinions you are acting in the same manner as the people you criticize.
Sometimes I don't like how people act and talk in my country - but I wouldn't suggest for a minute that we censor them for being unpopular. Doing so would only drive the problem underground to fester and grow.
Re:um first ammendment (Score:2)
Now, if Napster were run by the U.S. government, then you'd be on to something...
Re:One huge lawsuit... (Score:2)
It's all about the Karma Points, baybee...
Moderators: Read from the bottom up!
One huge lawsuit... (Score:5)
For those of you who haven't heard it:
On Napster, they first came for the Nazi musicians, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Nazi musician. Then they came for the Rappers, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Rapper. Then they came for the Hip-Hop listeners, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Hip-Hop listener. Then they came for the (whatever) and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a (whatever). Then they came for me -- and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.
You can change out the words and this paragraph will apply just about anywhere. This is just a bad thing...
It's all about the Karma Points, baybee...
Moderators: Read from the bottom up!
Re:those poor Europeans (Score:2)
Europeans know firsthand what happens if you don't shut a one-testicled gravelly voiced lunatic with a toothbrush moustache the hell up.
Count your blessings that the most hateful people in your country will ever be likely to do again (keep in mind we're ignoring the Native American massacres, slavery etc) would be to show up on Jerry Springer and hit each other with folding chairs, or get REALLY REALLY wrinkly necks and start their own radio talk show about morality.
Re:Thank Lenin! (Score:2)
nazi bands??? (Score:5)
Now I'm confused, do nazi bands have powerful conquering armies and concentration camps, or are thay just a bunch of powerless losers that shave their heads and pretend to have some affiliation with Hitler?. Oh wait, I see the danger, didn't the whole Third Reich start as a metal band?
Re:Napster - The Business Entity (Score:2)
I give you my information:
my user names : asdf, bigfarter, fhkhfdha, larsisgay, etc
my email : root@microsoft.com
my details: all optional, so why waste brain cycles on them?
Every few months I change details because of a computer rebuild or some other legit reason and the fact I cant remember that pesky password.
The suits behind napster arent that bright!
They can do whatever they want... (Score:3)
Put your money where your mouth is. This is the reason I won't shop at Walmart. They've made a business decision not to carry CDs with "parental advisory" stickers on them (which is completely hypocritical since they have no problem selling "R-rated" movies), so I've made a consumer decision not to give them my money.
There are plenty of places online to buy music that some people find "offensive", and until such music is outlawed (which WOULD be censorship), there will always be such places. If there is demand, someone somewhere will meet those demands.
-S
One for three (Score:2)
Actually, the answers would be: "They have the responsibility to do what they think is right," "Can they build a Nazi music detector? No. Can they filter certain files i.e. "stop this" in the sense any reasonable person would recognize? Of course." and "wherever they want."
On the plus side, one sensible thought in three represents an all-time high for Your Rights Online. And kudos to Jamie for ordering the commas and quotation marks correctly! Could you give Rob some pointers on its versus it's?
Hands Off is the best policy. (Score:2)
Forgetting the legal issues, ethically, it's better to let the "offensive" material be. After all, it's the Nazi's of the world who think it's ok to censor, removing their material only validates their pro-censorship position.
Re:better since 1998 (Score:2)
Anybody here remember reading J.D. Salinger, D.H. Lawrence, or Mark Twain primarily because TPTB didn't want us to?
Anway, our ability to think, not some search engine's idea of what is appropriate, is what should be guiding us to critically read all versions of history and decide for ourselves what is true.
Re:nazi bands??? (Score:2)
Re:Strangely Enough (Score:2)
Re:nazi bands??? (Score:2)
Re:It's Napster's responsibility, but... (Score:2)
For the love of God... (Score:2)
I think people who request outrageous things ("Someone might find this offensive! We better get rid of it!") should be permanently banned from the Internet.
Perhaps they should, just to be on the "safe side", put a warning that, in nicer words, says "To the disappointment of some, you have not died and gone to heaven. Therefore, please understand that, by using our service, you may encounter offensive content. If you are one of the idiots who expects the Internet to be maintained to the likings of the Pope, you are prohibited from accessing our service."
(BTW, in case it comes up... I am *not* making fun of the Pope or anything of that nature.)
Re:It's their company (Score:2)
It's Napster's responsibility, but... (Score:2)
Re:Wait...! (Score:2)
Hitler was also a vegetarian...
Next thing you know.. (Score:2)