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Read To Your Children, Go To Jail (Not Really) 312

The property struggle of our generation will be fought not in the streets of Matewan but in the tiny print in license agreements. Glassbook is Adobe's attempt to e-books, but they have a few details yet to iron out. Take Alice's Adventures in Wonderland for example -- check out the permissions you acquire when you "purchase" this "book." Thanks to Art Medlar and TBTF for this one. Update: Curiouser and curiouser. Apparently I misinterpreted the meaning of "this book cannot be read aloud"; Glassbook tech support tells me this refers to its capabilities, not, as labeled, permissions. I apologize for that. But I don't understand why, after this story was posted, they decided to change this. Now if you download Alice, you'll find it can be read aloud.

Incidentally, Adobe is using the text of Alice as transcribed by the awesome Project Gutenberg, whose entire purpose for existence is to bring reading material to as many people as possible. One of the first things I did when I got a laptop was to download a couple dozen of their books. In ASCII format. Say what you like about vi, at least it doesn't tell me to shut up.

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Read To Your Children, Go To Jail

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  • It's real... I downloaded the eBook reader and the text. You have to register to download the eBook with a name and email address, but there's not much validation, so I used an alias (Guy Montag) in the interests of privacy. When you launch the eBook software for the first time, it says that you must allow it to do some certification to proceed, before you can read anything. I'm not sure what information is sent during the certification. Once you open the book, click on /menu/permissions, and there the restrictions are, in all there infamy.
  • I've used e-books a bit on the Palm, as well as on the Newton.

    My take on it is this -- for just plain pleasure reading, a paper book is far superior. It is easier on the eyes, for one thing -- I think the combination of a light emitting display and the fact that the display is behind a transparent but reflective surface is a point against e-books.

    Format is also an issue -- even a small paperback book is larger than any PDA screen. I cannot speak to the rockebook type machines coming out.

    On the e-book side, when you need to have content related search capabilities then you are much better off with an electronic format.

    Reading of literature is a stream oriented process; reference lookup is a random access oriented process. I'll read the entire data stream of Alice in Wonderlande, but the vast majority of entries in my local restaurant guide I'll never look at. I'm more likely want to find just Chinese restaurantes near the 1500 block of Broadway. I'm more likely to use the Unix manual in electronic form.

    Back when I was a kid, I used to read the Unix System III then Sys V manual cover to cover over the course of a year.
  • I believe in this case, if they had enough evidence to press charges against you (i.e. proof that you had the reader, had downloaded the text from them, etc. etc.) AND got you into court, it would come down to your legal duty to tell the truth about where you read it from.

    Practically speaking it's absolutely assinine.

  • I somehow doubt that the penalty of infringing the agreement imposed by a third-party on a public domain piece of literature is imprisonment.
    ---
    seumas.com
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:40AM (#558985)
    As far as helping Gutenberg goes......

    About a year and a half ago, I wrote a nice little utility in perl that would parse a Gutenberg etext, and break the chapters out into seperate files, write them into nicely formatted html files, create a table of contents and a framset document so that all you had to do then was double click the index file and you had a nice little 2 frame interface. This could have been used to make nice ebooks using html. I offered this utility to them to provide on their web site for anyone who wanted to download or for them to even use as a cgi so that people could click a title and see it in a nice web interface. They basically told me to piss up a rope. They were not interested in offering this to anyone. I think I still have a copy of the perl scripts laying around. I know I converted a few ebooks and read them in a browser window very conveniently then moved on.

    I realize that ASCII text is lowest common denominator, but its awefully nice to be able to view in a browser, when you can adjust your font and size and not drive yourself crazy reading it. If Gutenberg does not want help, screw them.

    Now, the best idea would be a coupla drivers that flipped the screen 90 degrees to the right and did the same for the mouse. This way folks who have nice little light laptops could actually hold them like books and read. Hell, I'd never carry my laptop into the john as it is, but if I could sit there and hold the thing like a book and just scroll my finger down the toucpad to scroll the text, then you've got something.

    As I am not a programmer, I have no idea what type of trouble this might be, so perhaps the more technically minded of you can enlighten us?

  • by bwt ( 68845 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @08:08AM (#558986)
    Briefs submitted this morning by an angy Florida resident suggest that by using the product, you obtain a psychic power that gives you the clairvoyant ability to discern the text of the project gutenberg manuscript of the same name.

    When you speak the words of this similar but different literary access source aloud, you are not reading in contradiction to the licence, but rather exercising the explicitly unmentioned right to use "The Product" as a psychic assistance device in full compliance with the contract.

    In a bizarre twist, the Supreme Court of Florida has recently ruled that this licence conflicts with the Florida election laws and even if it didn't that the word "cannot" in the last clause of the licence implies that under some cases it "can" be read aloud and that further it would be an abuse of discretion in the case of the presence of psychic powers to inhibit the public's "right to know" which is guaranteed by the Florida and US Constitutions as well as the plain meaning of the text of the licence. Therefore, the licence must be construed, in light of the clearly overriding interest that children not be kept ignorant that the licence in fact confers an affirmative obligation to speak the words of the book aloud while receiving the psychic assistance of the device. Anyone not reading the book aloud will be forced to count ballots in Miami-Dade county.

    Scholars expect that the US Supreme Court may reverse the Florida Court. The familiar 5-4 conservative majority is expected to rule that the Florida Court's remedy, which, as applied, would allows some children to hear the story, also prevents children in other counties from witnessing the psychic demonstration and thus violates the equal protection clause. Scholars agree that the fact that remote counties are clearly out of earshot will play heavily in the deliberations.

    However most copyright scholars predict the justices will also rule 8-1 that the original licence violates "fair use" under even the most draconian reading of the DMCA, but Justice Ginsberg is expected to argue that the Florida Court's status as the final arbiter of state contract law precludes US Supreme Court action on that grounds.

    When asked for comment, George "Dubya" Bush said that it didn't matter to him because he couldn't read anyway, although he seemed interested in having Dick Cheney read the story to him. Al Gore, who seemed on the verge of tears about something else, said that while he strongly disagreed with the Supreme Court, he would accept their ruling, and noted that if Adobe didn't want people reading the book, he had a lockbox for sale. Jesse Jackson on the other hand complained that Alice in Wonderland was a racist text and compared the issue to Selma.
  • I think that either this story is in error or is an early "April-Fool's Day" joke.

    From "Glassbook's" own FAQ (emphasis added):

    What happens to the book when I'm done reading it?

    Since you own the e-book, once you have read it you can store in the Library that is included with the Glassbook Reader. In the future, users will be able to loan or give their e-books to others using the Glassbook Plus Reader.

    Can I print and copy my e-books?

    To protect copyrights, publishers establish their own guidelines for how much of their e-books can be printed and/or copied. This means that these permissions will differ from book to book. For example, some of the free books from the Glassbook Bookstore have no restrictions on copying and printing. For example, a publisher might give consumers the ability to print several pages of a cookbook within a set period of time.

    Either there's been a serious mix-up at adobe and/or glassbooks (If any of their books are printable, a public domain work copied from Project Gutenberg ought to be!), or someone's pulling our collective legs. The FAQ implies that giving "your copy" of an e-book to someone else is intended to be allowed (presumably, they're trying to find some way of ensuring that your copy disappears when you give it to someone else). I find it hard (though, sadly, not impossible) to imagine Adobe refusing to allow printing from a public domain work...

    Has anyone else downloaded and confirmed this? Unfortunately, as is all-to-often the case, only Windows and Mac users can get an 'e-book' reader, so I can't download it myself and check...you can download the book from here [glassbook.com].

    If these restrictions are really printed here, it looks like we should be complaining to the publisher ("VolumeOne") more than Glassbooks.


    A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for Evil.
  • It can claim anything for its viewer or books it owns but it cannot restrict the redistribution of Alice in absolutely no way.
  • These 'no persmission' values may just be default values associated with this e-book file... if any book could offer rights in these regards - wouldnt it be Alice in Wonderland? Could this just be a case of an overworked geek not adding the correct persmissions? it sounds like a simple answer - but I find it very difficult to believe that they would attempt to withhold rights from Alice in Wondlerland.

    If Im wrong - it would be another case of Corporate America saying "you dont have any rights, you have only the rights we want to offer you - even if the terms we set forth violate previously described rights we dont care - we have the means to defend ourselves vigourously - you do not... and your government is on our side - as evidenced by their lack of action at display after display of our arrogance... piss off, see you in court.. heheheheheh "

  • Nope-

    I just downloaded the Adobe EBook reader [glassbook.com](windows or Mac). , and then clicked the library button, which takes you to Adobe's eBook collection [glassbook.com]

    • Click on Children's Books,
    • Click on "Alice In Wonderland",
    • click on checkout, then download link. It downloads.
    • Click Read Book,
    • Click on "info" tab at bottom of Reader.

    Voila.

    The same picture submitted by Art.

    Disturbing. Very Disturbing.

    But not suprising.

  • Yeah, and we ended up with watered down, wrong crap like the bible.
  • My bogosity detector just went of the scale. I think this may be some form of a joke. Esp since it is a title that is long since out of copyright.

    Folks I think we have been had.

    The Cure of the ills of Democracy is more Democracy.

  • Gutenburg has a standard header attached to their documents that places (some) GPL-esque restrictions on their use as long as it has that header -- but you are allowed to remove that header, and are left with a public domain work.

    I think that this particular story is, in fact, a scam, but people should be aware that a work being "public domain" isn't like it being copyrighted. You can easily and legally take a public domain work, reformat it a little, and copyright the result.

    You don't hold a copyright on the public domain material per se -- the copyright is on your particular expression/presentation of it.

    Art galleries do this with photographs of paintings in their collections all the time. Another more "evil" example might be Bill Gates' Corbis and images of Leonardo Da Vinci's notebooks.

    Just because something is public domain doesn't mean that you'll be able to get a copy without somebody's copyright restictions on it.

  • by ackthpt ( 218170 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:03AM (#559000) Homepage Journal
    EULAs. That'll either put them to sleep from utter boredom or give them tramatizing nightmares.

    --

  • this screen tells me what i can do with that document in this stupid viewer, not what you are ALLOWED to do. the software will not read it to you, this seems to be a feature of the pro version ...

    i don't know if that compromises the GPL, because if you are allowed to distribute the document and give a pointer to the source (thats the ASCII gutenberg version) adobe seems to comply with the GPL ...

    where is bruce?

    ;-)
  • From the terms and conditions

    "
    Can I run the Glassbook Reader and a debugger at the same time?

    Our security implementation does not allow debugging of any program while the Glassbook Reader is running. However, as long as the Glassbook Reader is not running, debugging is not a problem.
    "

    Let's hope people don't start distributing documentation in Glassbook format then.
  • by Royster ( 16042 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:04AM (#559010) Homepage
    When I use a word it means exactly what I want it to mean -- no more, no less. H. Dumpty
  • Who can we contact/complain to about this. Words cannot describe my outrage.

  • If all they were worried about was synthetic speech, then there wouldn't be the "you may not loan or give this away" restrictions.

    It's a pretty easy inference from those restrictions that Adobe is trying to force anyone interested in getting e-Alice into getting it directly from them, and from no one else.

    I'd love to see this taken to court. A healthy dose of mainstream public exposure is what's needed here to begin spreading the memetic antibodies against the trend of eroding fair use rights. I suggest we all stand outside the Adobe headquarters (it's next to the Hilton in downtown San Jose, right?) and read Alice in Wonderland aloud from our Glassbook Readers.

  • I believe that simply re-printing the book does not constitute an original, copyrightable work. You cannot simply re-type something word for word or even simply change a couple things and say it's original.

    I agree. The question here, however, is not whether or not the work is original, it's whether or not you or I have the financial and legal resources to challenge Adobe's implicit assertion that it is (I know I don't).

    The big thing with these technological "content protection" measures is that the law doesn't matter much anyway -- you may be well within your legal rights to copy, lend, or loan the e-book version of "Alice in Wonderland", but the software doesn't see it that way. So you can't.

    Likewise, SDMI-protected works aren't magically going to become unprotected when they go out of copyright.

    Worse, that's probably a moot point, since copyright now lasts something like six to seven times the expected lifetime of e.g. CD media, the bits will have rotted and it'll be long gone (no backup copies, either... thanks SDMI!).

    If SDMI and similar protection mechanisms become widespread, I have honestly no idea how contemporary works are going to survive past the next 25-50 years, let alone the next century.

    Talk about cultural amnesia...

  • by Delirium Tremens ( 214596 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:48AM (#559026) Journal
    What if I memorize the entire book or some piece of it, and then declaim that in front of my children or my microphone?
  • i would think that the devidce would have to check the permissions on the document that it was trying to reaad, and it would refuse if the permissions were incorrect...

    scary thing is, rms kindof predicted this in The Right to Read. Of course no one took him seriously, and it looks like he was on target more than anyone thought.


    tagline

  • The text of Alice in Wonderland is in the Public Domain. What right do they have to say that I can't copy it to the clipboard? What right do they have to disable printing? What right do they have to prohibit giving it away?

    This is the tendancy in digital media. There are also public domain motion pictures which are being distributed with CSS.
  • Sadly enough, it is 100% REAL. I just downloaded the eBook 2.0 beta software and the (free - money-wise) Alice book (yes, that's right, it's free (monitarily at least) - so you can verify it yourself. The license on the software isn't that bad - one of the few that says you can reverse engineer it in some circumstances, like for interoperability...). The book is available for downloading [glassbook.com] although you need to have installed the Win/Mac software first. (And the Win version requires a reboot, of course.)

    If you want to see my screen shot of the EXACT SAME thing, then check it out [wpi.edu]. Notice I chose the contents page. Or if you don't believe that, try the Title page [wpi.edu]. Yes, the period is missing on the Read Aloud part. But it's still listed there.

    That screen shot is real - whether they are serious or not is another question.

  • by sulli ( 195030 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:49AM (#559031) Journal
    Maybe a Slashbox with the Gutenberg titles du jour? That would be nice to have.
  • Would it not be possible to write a custom reader to bypass whatever "copy to clipboard"/etc. restrictions there are in the interest of fair use? Sure, it would likely lead to a DeCSS-style legal fiasco, but fair use is fair use.

    ---
    "Fdisk format reinstall, doo dah doo dah,
  • Why not post this yourself? That way we could use them without Gutenberg's agreement. These tools sure sound useful to me.
  • Well, assuming you need a computer anyway to read these, why not just read your kid the free version [cmu.edu] from Project Gutenburg itself?
  • They're plain text and html. All of the rest of these "e-book" tools are designed to reduce functionality - so you can't edit, copy, annotate, etc.

    Which is why they will fail.

  • The GPL opponents, you know, those who say the GPL is not about freedom, blah blah blah.. if something was to be truly free, put it in the public domain and let anyone do anything they want with it.

    Well.. that's what Project Gutenberg did with it's books... I wonder if it's the same people who think this is wrong who whine about the GPL?

    The fact is, the text of Alice is in the public domain, right? (I mean if it's not, then this argument is useless). If it IS in the public domain, nobody can lay any claim to what you can or cannot do with the material.. period. I seem to recall a ruling where it was ruled that simply slightly changing the format some media is delivered in does not suddenly make it an original work, succeptible to copyright.

    Alice is Alice is Alice, no matter who prints it.
  • by Ektanoor ( 9949 )
    Ok people. Calm down... Deep breath...
    Let's forget Alice. Anyway a child's tale.
    Let's think someone does this with the Bible!
    ey I'm not a christian but I do respect any feelings people may have to it. And in way or the other, the vast majority of Earth's population has some cultural relation to it. Yeah, you may be a jewish but you have something yours there anyway. You may be a muslim but Isa was the one before the Prophet. You may not be christian, jewish, muslim but somehow have something related with such book. Good or bad, it stilll is a piece of Mankind's History

    So if this goes this way... You cannot speak the words of God?

    If people go over this... Yeah, UCITA. The New Electronic Inquisition! Bring the electric chair, the modern way to roast all these heretics... The Road Ahead for the new Bible. But remember, you cannot read it aloud...
  • umm, it's property because and only because it's been defined that way, legally speaking.

    Umm, any notion of "property" exists because it's been defined legally as such.

    If someone has an apple but is not hungry, then they should have no right denying that apple to someone who is hungry. After all, did the person who picked it ask the tree for permission to take it? "From each according to ability, to each according to need" and all that, you know. Anything that can be manufactured can be manufactured again if needed.

  • by EnderWiggnz ( 39214 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @08:19AM (#559053)
    Sorry... there was supposed to be a link to Right to Read [gnu.org] by rms.

    but i think mozilla did some funky stuff with the submitted field...

    oh well... there it is...


    tagline

  • Well some people are expressing their doubts about the validity of this story. Unfortunately I'm a Linux-only old stubborn sysadmin and they still don't have the reader available. Anyway...

    If this story is true, then someone is getting into serious trouble. Carrol is not here to claim his rights. But a book, after several years becomes automatically public domain and no one has rights to revoke its free distribution. Not even republishers like Adobe. I may buy the book for their work on printing, editing it. They may be woners of pictures or draws (if they are not the original ones). But they don't have a damn right on any piece of its text. Besides, such significative works of Art, and Alice is surely one of them, are protected by international laws and it seems that UN has a big play here. So such claims are a damn HELL! If they are real. I wonder if some lawyers are not already pushing their calculators to hand...
  • This book cannot be lent or given to anyone else.

    How fscking ridiculous! Forget about it. I'll download the text.

  • by dtobias ( 262347 ) <dan@tobias.name> on Thursday December 14, 2000 @08:20AM (#559062) Homepage
    It's quite possibly a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act to intentionally disable speech readers, though, since they aid visually handicapped people in reading the books.
    --Dan
  • I believe that simply re-printing the book does not constitute an original, copyrightable work. You cannot simply re-type something word for word or even simply change a couple things and say it's original. IT's still the text of Alice, the book is only a delivery mechanism.
    THe delivery mechanism itself can be patented/copyrighted/whatever, but the text of Alice is public domain, regardless of how it's delvered or what the publshers claim.

  • This reminds me of an episode of Max Headroom where people were making bootleg copies of educational tv programs, and the censorship board was trying to shut them down. Once a year during some noisy festival, they operated a printing press(since the noise would be muffled).

    Geez, more and more episodes of that show are turning from fiction into fact.
  • Ok, there's too much misinformation here. The restriction is purely electronic and prevents the ebook reader from sending the text to a text-speach converter. It other words, it prevents computers from reading the book to you, making it more difficult for one to create an audio tape or CD of the book and selling it for free.

    Talk about letting your imagination run wild. Settle down people. Let's see if adobe comes out with an ebook authoring program before we complain too much. And it looks like an extension of PDF anyway, so we'll likely have open source readers and modifiers soon(which is exactly what adobe wants to prevent...)

    -Adam

    Bumper sticker of the day:
    Honk if you've never seen an uzi fired out of a car window.
  • IANAA, but this didn't used to be legally justifiable, since at the very least, reading a book aloud would have qualified as "fair use". Nowadays, in the USA, under the DMCA, the concept of fair use has been seriously diluted, and a copyright owner can impose almost any restriction on the use of their work.

    In this case, the "work" is apparently having converted a free Project Gutenberg text into a formatted form. Which is interesting, since it could be argued that the text itself is not their work, and thus the only infringement would be verbally describing the look of the layout or fonts...

  • The point of the article is that fair use is being given the runaround here, not allowing text to be copied etc., and that they have work to do, since the way it stands, it doesn't allow *anything* to read it aloud. It doesn't say specifically what can and can't read it. It merely says it cannot be read aloud.
  • by Delirium Tremens ( 214596 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:58AM (#559082) Journal
    So we can not:
    • Copy
    • Print
    • Give
    • Lend
    • Read aloud

    But what about Rent and Lease?
    And can we read it twice, or is it going to explode like in Inspector Gadget or MI?

  • The Project Gutenberg web site appears to be slashdotted at the moment. I copied the relevant portion of their license from another text they produced that I happen to have handy:

    DISTRIBUTION UNDER "PROJECT GUTENBERG-tm"
    You may distribute copies of this etext electronically, or by
    disk, book or any other medium if you either delete this
    "Small Print!" and all other references to Project Gutenberg,
    or:
    [1] Only give exact copies of it. Among other things, this requires that you do not remove, alter or modify the etext or this "small print!" statement. You may however, if you wish, distribute this etext in machine readable binary, compressed, mark-up, or proprietary form, including any form resulting from conversion by word processing or hypertext software, but only so long as
    *EITHER*:
    [*] The etext, when displayed, is clearly readable, and does *not* contain characters other than those intended by the author of the work, although tilde (~), asterisk (*) and underline (_) characters may be used to convey punctuation intended by the author, and additional characters may be used to indicate hypertext links; OR
    [*] The etext may be readily converted by the reader at no expense into plain ASCII, EBCDIC or equivalent form by the program that displays the etext (as is the case, for instance, with most word processors); OR
    [*] You provide, or agree to also provide on request at no additional cost, fee or expense, a copy of the etext in its original plain ASCII form (or in EBCDIC or other equivalent proprietary form).
    [2] Honor the etext refund and replacement provisions of this
    "Small Print!" statement.
    [3] Pay a trademark license fee to the Project of 20% of the net profits you derive calculated using the method you already use to calculate your applicable taxes. If you don't derive profits, no royalty is due. Royalties are payable to "Project Gutenberg Association within the 60 days following each date you prepare (or were legally required to prepare) your annual (or equivalent periodic) tax return.

    The requirement that the text be convertable to ASCII seems to have been violated. One of the pieces of the etext that shall not be removed, altered or modified says:
    This PROJECT GUTENBERG-tm etext, like most PROJECT GUTENBERG-tm etexts, is a "public domain" work distributed by Professor Michael S. Hart through the Project Gutenberg (the "Project"). Among other things, this means that no one owns a United States copyright on or for this work, so the Project (and you!) can copy and distribute it in the United States without permission and without paying copyright royalties. Special rules, set forth below, apply if you wish to copy and distribute this etext under the Project's "PROJECT GUTENBERG" trademark.

    I have no trouble understanding the wording of "so the Project (and you!) can copy and distribute it in the United States without permission and without paying copyright royalties."
  • so, if my wife asks me to read a goodnight story for her, I can tell her that it is not allowed! E-Books are great news for lazy husbands, then!
    Cheers.
  • I think they just want public readings to be considered against the terms of the agreement.

    Even that is out of the question. The text is public domain now.

    Setting aside this particular case and looking at it more generally, "that" is not out of the question, simply because the book is in the public domain.

    You seem to be confusing two separate areas of law: copyright and contract law. Alice's Adventures in Wonderland is in the public domain. However, you and I could legally sign a binding contract where I agree to give you $10,000, and you agree never to read Alice's Adventures in Wonderland out loud.

    The fact that the book is in the public domain does not impair the enforceability of the contract. If, after entering into such a contract, you read Alice's Adventures in Wonderland out loud, you would be in breach of contract. You would not be in violation of copyright law, but you would be in breach of contract.

    See the difference?

    Now, whether click-through licenses are enforceable contracts at all is a separate, and very fuzzy, issue which I haven't addressed here. But I wanted to make the point about the difference between copyright law and contract law.

  • by scott1853 ( 194884 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:06AM (#559093)
    The book cannot be read aloud? Are PDFs going to come with a voice recognition plugin to make sure that you aren't reading the words in the document out loud.

    I think I understand what they are saying. I think they just want public readings to be considered against the terms of the agreement. They should have it worded differently though, and specifically stating that is what they are opposing.

  • explain 1 thing to me: what part of the new typesetting can even be noticed when run through a voice synth? with these kind of ridiculous restrictions I definately will NOT use it. and please explain this to the blind. because I'm sure they will not appreciate it. I also wonder about the legalities of this in Europe.

    //rdj
  • actually.. blind people can and do use windows without much trouble. Yes, I know this from first hand experience. this is NOT about treadmills and wheelchairs.

    //rdj
  • I would actually be supportive of a CD license which prohibited the listener from singing along outloud, especially on the subway.
  • I wasn't aware that 1984 was available as an etext yet.
  • Since when have EULA ever conformed to any law? just about every EULA I see says that I am not allowed to reverse engineer it. Guess what.. I can, and I am allowed. by law.

    //rdj
  • He said that assuming Alice is out of copyright that this licence is total BS and would hold about as much water as a fishing net. (OK the second part is my words)

    On the other hand if you really want to read to your kids go down to your local used book store and pick up a paper copy for the dollar it would probably cost you for a used copy.

    The Cure of the ills of Democracy is more Democracy.

  • A few comments here. I installed Windows just to verify this. There have been several claims that this is fake. I can verify it is in fact real. Second there is nothing in the Pro version that does text to speach so claiming that that is what that means is flase (unless that is for an upcoming version). The other interesting thing is under their installation notes they have the following text. "Programmers: If you are a software programmer, you should note that the Adobe Acrobat eBook Reader's security implementation does not allow program debuggers to be executed on the machine while the Adobe Acrobat eBook Reader is running."
  • So, let me get thi sstraight. These miserable shitbags use Project Gutenberg's hard work, do some trivial reformatting, and then threaten anyone who does a cut and fucking paste?!

    I want to find these people, kick 'em in the head, and vomit on them. Since that's pretty much how I feel: angry and sick beyond words at their loathsomeness.

  • by InfinityWpi ( 175421 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:08AM (#559111)
    Are they really -that- much better than paper? I mean, okay, they save space. I can fit the Bible and a good half-dozen classics on my Palm and still have room for otehr stuff, and I don't have to lug around a few pounds of paper.

    Beyond that... isn't it easier to just turn a page? Instead of scrolling the text, just move your eyes? Are we so freakin' lazy we don't even want to move our eyes, just push a button to scroll down a line?

  • I don't think those permissions mean what you think they mean. I believe that they are instructions to the software, not the user.

    And, not to sound like a broken record, but: if you don't like the license, then don't accept it. Just use the material in accordance with the restrictions (and rights) laid out by copyright law. Becoming bound by a EULA is a voluntary and optional act.


    ---
  • by SnowDog_2112 ( 23900 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:08AM (#559116) Homepage
    I mean, beyond the absolute silliness of this, isn't it fairly (for low values of fairly) common for folks who have trouble reading to read aloud in an effort to understand the text?

    Sorry, you can't learn to read on this book. Hey! Stop sounding that out!
  • I know some ACs have already said this, but just so you know it's not a troll, I also went and downloaded it (pain in the ass, had to boot into windows, then REBOOT windows :), and the image is legit.

    Now my question is, what the hell? How can they restrict use of something they don't own? I guess they own the format, and hence the file itself, but that doesn't let you restrict what people can do with the intellectual content. I don't get it.

  • Really, though, to what limits are you willing to go?

    Would you be willing to kill anyone who tried to stop you from reading this book allowed? Because that's what it might take, when they come after you. If you truly believe (at least in the U.S.A.) that you have a constitutional right to something (and this might not qualify, but serves as a useful example, and damn well should qualify), surely you can legally use deadly force in defending that right, commensurate with the efforts of those who would seek to deny you it.

    So, I ask you, would you be willing to kill those who would seek to prevent you from reading to your children?

    If not, then the battle is lost before it is begun, for all that it will take is someone using any force to stop you.

  • I will read the book, remember it word by word and then recite it from my memory outloud. I am not sure how human memory works exactly but I don't think it could be considered a clipboard!
  • What I find most ironic is this: that there can be any kind of copyright question about a piece of literature that was written by an author who has been dead for over 100 years!

    Yeah, I know, Adobe's trying to protect their labor, and I suppose that of Project Guetenberg and VolumeOne. Still, it speaks volumes about the state of copyrights and intellectual property in our society today.
  • by Hannibal_Ars ( 227413 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @08:00AM (#559121) Homepage
    If you actually download and install a beta copy of the eBook reader, you'll find that the "Read Aloud" permission setting has nothing to do with whether or not the book can be read aloud to your children. In fact, the setting refers to a function of reader software, which you can use to have a synthesized voice read the book aloud to you if the book comes with that permission. The book pictured does not, so the top button on that bottom line of buttons on the left only says "Read". Were the "read aloud" pemrission enabled, that button would say "Read Aloud", and a synthesized voice would read the contents of the book through your speakers. Yeah, it's stupid and maybe even slightly ominous, but it's not nearly what it has been made out to be here.
  • It seems to me that Project Gutenberg needs to add some terms to their license - which is their right even though the material itself is in the public domain. It needs to be clearly stated that no one can use Gutenberg texts and add restrictions to them. Sort of like the GPL - if you use a Gutenberg text as the source, you must place anything you add (HTML or any other markup/formatting) in the public domain as well. This kind of use is abuse of Gutenberg's effort and should not be allowed.
  • by hey! ( 33014 ) on Friday December 15, 2000 @05:53AM (#559127) Homepage Journal
    &gt"Back when I was a kid, I used to read the Unix System III then Sys V manual cover to cover over the course of a year.

    What kind of sick fucked up kid were you?


    Well --
    s/sick fucked up/weird but happy/
    and you've got the picture.
  • They didn't delete all references to Project Gutenberg. Hence they are bound by the other alternative.
  • by mclearn ( 86140 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:09AM (#559132) Homepage

    "My God, Vanessa's got a smashing body. I bet she shags like a minx. How do I tell them that because of the unfreezing process, I have no inner monologue?"

    "I hope I didn't say that out loud just now."

  • Why? Because Mickey Mouse is part of my history, too. They (Disney) make money off of him. I remember portions of my childhood with him. I should be able to express my memories in any way I choose without fear that Disney will come after me (legally speaking). Why? Because those memories are mine.


    Disney has made their money off of Mickey, and Pluto, and Goofy, and all the others. They've made their money many times over. Now, how about I be allowed to tell people my story, in the manner in which I choose? And if that involves Mickey Mouse, why should I be prevented from telling my story?


    The closest we come to a legal agreement between me and the Disney corporation is the one they accepted by becoming a company in the United States of America, wherein they agreed to abide by the rules of the Constitution which governs this country. This self-same document says that after a limited time, I'm entitled to use those previously copyrighted works to tell my story, to improve the quality of life in this country if I can. Disney is violating this agreement by getting the government of this country to extend copyrights indefinitely, so they can prevent me from doing my part.


    Tell me again why I shouldn't have the right to use the character which they created long before my parents were even born, and have made (and will make) money off of through what will probably be my children's lifetimes?

  • realize that it is traditional for libraries to have public readings, but I'm not sure exactly how this avoids violating the "public performance" copyright.

    It doesn't, it's just that by convention, nobody has been disgustingly anti-social enough to take it to court. That might be out of genuine civic mindedness, fear of public sentiment, or fear that the public might demand a change to the law in general.

  • What about people that read aloud to themselves when they read?
  • by gfxguy ( 98788 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @08:27AM (#559141)
    Because the person who created Mickey Mouse, the one who should benefit from MM's fame and fortune, is long gone, so who are the laws protecting?

    The reason copyrights expire are so that other people can benefit exactly as you describe in your example. The corporation didn't create Mickey Mouse, Walt did. So what it boils down to is protection first of the copyright holder, then the consumer. Walt can no longer be protected, so why should you have to pay $100.00 for a Mickey Mouse lamp because the company that made it has to give Walt Disney Co. $50.00 for each lamp?

    It also spurs innovation. What has Walt Disney Co. done lately? Shouldn't they be more encouraged to create new material than rely on licensing fees for Mickey Mouse? I'm certainly not saying they don't create new material, and that material should be protected for a reasonable amount of time - just like the original laws stated. The original laws were much more reasonable. Of course, that's just my opinion.
    ----------

  • > It's the same as a CD.

    Well, *maybe* if they actually had the copyright on it. They don't. They didn't write the book. They didn't transcribe the text. They don't own it. Even the most Disney-friendly congressmen have yet to propose that copyright be retroactively extended 135 years.

    And even if they did, I don't think they'd be allowed to restrict you from lending the book out. Libraries lend books all the time (and CDs, too!).
  • You have to hit the menu button in the lower right, then hit info, then permissions.
  • I won't call ya "lawyers" out of professional courtesy -- just don't call technical writers "manual laborers." :o) OK, reproducing the electronic version of the document I can sort of understand, because it's using some kind of proprietary encoding. But it cannot be read aloud for crissakes? C'mon, give me a freakin' break! How is that legally justifiable?
  • by Fesh ( 112953 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @10:11AM (#559152) Homepage Journal
    I just had a really sad thought... There's this system of government out there somewhere which holds that a person's posessions belong to "The People" (read: the government). Private use is allowed, but private ownership is not. This system happens to be called Communism.

    Now if Capitalism is the opposite of Communism, why are the two starting to sound so damn similar? What is the difference to the individual between the goverment owning everything and a oligarchy of corporations owning everything? Hello???

    This bothers me immensely, and I've never been the "The only good Commie is a dead Commie" type. I have friends who think that Capitalism is the best system there is and Communism is a horrible menace to be fought to the very last right-thinking American. I'm starting to think we desperately need a new way of doing things, because it dosen't look like Capitalism is much of an improvement over Communism from where I'm standing.


    --Fesh

  • They had to choose to make it non-clipboardable, non-printable, non-sharable and non-giftable when they used the authoring software. I'm just curious about what legal basis they have to do that and then claim that my bypassing any digital security system that is present is illegal circumvention.

    To the extent that the digitizing of a movie is just a mechanical process, it does not add any copyrightable content to the public domain film.
  • by EnderWiggnz ( 39214 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:10AM (#559157)
    And you thought that voice recognition was a waste of time...

    Voice recognition could be used to check whats on teh screen, and automatically listen to the surrounding sounds, compare the noises to the text on screen, and if there is a 90% match or more, employ a high powered electric shock to you and flash a warning that you are violating the copyright agreement, and that further violations are punishable by death.

    If you continue to read aloud, the electric shock will increase in intensity until it resembles the power that GW Bush has been sending through all of those inmates in Texas.

    A just punishment for obvious copyright thiefs who are stealiong from the poor artists... THIEF...
    tagline

  • Having lawfully aquired (purchased) a copyrighted work, you're free to do with it as you please provided you do not infringe on the copyright. Lawful uses include selling your copy, giving it away to an individual, library, or charity, lending it out, reading it aloud to a child or friend, printing copies for your own personal use (perhaps in for use away from the computer or in larger type that's easier to read, or to mark up with highliter and pencil), and copying excerpts to use in critical papers or reviews. Like software end user license agreements that say you can't sell your copy of the program, lend it out, or publish benchmarks or reviews, or a sticker on a book you buy that says "not for resale or library use," the terms attached to the Alice in Wonderland E-Book are just legal masturbation. Assertions that you don't have liberty with the things you buy and own fly in the face of hundreds of years of common practice dating back to times before the United States even existed.

    Members of the copyright cartel are trying to take away these physical property rights to lend and sell the original copy as well as the ability to make fair use via technology designed to cripple legally aquired copies of copyrighted works so they can not be fully used. Then they misconstrue laws such as the Digital Millenium Copyright Act as prohibiting individuals from working around these crippling technologies. The final outcome of Universal v. Corley and similar cases is going to be very important here, as there is a risk that the copyright cartel may use the courts to wrongly interpret laws in their favor.

    The copyright compromise provides for copyright holders a limited period of limited restrictions on others ability to duplicate, peform, and distribute a work in exchange for releasing the work into the public domain at the end of the term. It was not the intent of congress to rearrange the copyright compromise to make the allowed restrictions and the time period unlimited, but this is what members of the copyright cartel are arguing. Members of congress are on the record at the time of lawmaking and have also spoken out on the record and in the press explaining that they did not intend to create unlimited copyright nor a pay-per-use copyright model. The copyright cartel's claims to the contrary are simply false.

  • What's worse... What if you're blind? I think there's some work going on in text-to-Braille interfaces, but that would come under "printing out" because you could put a piece of carbon paper and a sheet of normal paper over the device and obtain a printout (although it would be encoded in Braille...). This means basically that if you're blind, you're not legally allowed to read the book. Period.

    Equal protection and Disabled Rights, anyone?


    --Fesh

  • "Everything You Know is patented and copyright. We demand you pay up now."

    I can see the thought police now.... patrolling the trains, the house for violations of their copyright.

    I got to send this to jay leno right now!

  • What if a blind person obtained this e-book and asked an interpreter to read it for them ? Blind people have the right to hear stories too. Of course the interpreter would be tempted to assassinate said blind person because it would take hours of boring reading to finish the book, but this can and will certainly apply to more pertinent books.

    In this age where new technologies try to bridge certain physical and even psychological handicaps, Adobe certainly isn't putting their good foot forward with this absurd restriction.

    What's preventing me from copyrighting my own name and suing anyone who dares say my name aloud without my permission ? This is the kind of stupidity these absurd licenses support and encourage, fueling the imminent popular desire for revolution and retribution against the big corporations. A megacorporation isn't a sentient being, people are sentient beings (for the most part). People should be defining the rules, not "artificial entities".
  • However, the onus would be on Adobe to come after me if I did violate this 'contract'. I bet they woudln't bother.
  • by _xeno_ ( 155264 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @08:32AM (#559173) Homepage Journal
    I didn't find that feature very obvious, maybe because it doesn't work on my computer (so they disabled it for the default book that can be read aloud). I finally after some searching discovered where it says that you can listen to books - but still, as a permission, saying that the book cannot be "read aloud" is a little misleading. Saying something along the lines of:
    Read Aloud
    This book cannot be read aloud using text to speech software

    Is tons different than:

    Read Aloud
    This book cannot be read aloud

    It sure sounds like they don't want me to read the book aloud to anyone else! They could have made it more clear, and there is only one small paragraph detailing this feature in the online eBook manual. Not entirely a bangup job on Adobe's side either.

  • by superid ( 46543 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:12AM (#559181) Homepage
    Doesn't this just *scream* that we should be helping Project Gutenberg somehow? I've browsed some of the Gutenberg texts and I know they are intentionally formatted for the lowest common denominator (ie. plain ASCII).

    I see 4 programs at freshmeat [freshmeat.net] for Gutenberg front ends. Are any of these widely adopted? This seems like an ideal candidate for XML. A DTD to define structure and XSL for presentation...hmmmmm

  • However, the onus would be on Adobe to come after me if I did violate this 'contract'. I bet they woudln't bother.

    They don't have to. If you want to get text out of the e-book in any way but hand-transcribing (or very time-consuming cracking), you're screwed. Adobe doesn't have to bother, the software does it for them. Note that the restrictions placed on the book are more comprehensive than just disabling the software's speech synthesis functionality.

  • Im not a lawyer.
    But I don't think that they can enforce that. It's the same as a CD. You're not supposed to play it for a large group of people, but you can play it for a small group of people. Same with NFL football games or whatever. You can tape them and watch them with a group of friends, but you can't play them for a large audience at like a banquet or something without permission. And they use pretty vague wording for that too...Something about rebroadcast. So, it's likely that you are aloud to read it for a few people, such as a spouse/child/whatever. But not for a group, such as a book reading at the library or whatever. Yes, I know it doesn't spell it out, and they need to do that. But How the hell are they going to enforce that? Are they going to burst in and fine me for reading to a kid? I don't think so. That's way too much bad publicity. THey should just rewrite the damn thing to be more clear. I'm probably talking out of my ass though.
  • by Christopher B. Brown ( 1267 ) <cbbrowne@gmail.com> on Thursday December 14, 2000 @08:34AM (#559189) Homepage
    What an outrageous licensing arrangement. The book is in the public domain. The notion of applying such a dramatically rapacious license to something that is acknowledged as a contribution from Project Gutenberg just screams for there to be both a combination of boycott of Adobe and something to be done in support of PG.

    Whether fortunately or unfortunately, the movers at PG are extremely resistant to the notion of using anything other than plain ASCII text; while they appear somewhat unreasonable about this, they are legitimately looking at a longer term scope. XML happens to be "hot" this year, but it may be something else that is "hotter" a couple years down the road.

    Jumping into XML would mandate defining a whole lot more "structuring" information than anyone can necessarily agree on. One person's "not enough structure" may be another's "too much structure," and there may well not be a "happy enough" medium.

    By all means, more tools to do automated processing of PG texts would be a Good Thing; transcribing more texts would similarly be a Good Thing. Sending Project Gutenberg $20 wouldn't be the most horrible idea on earth...

  • I mean, no company should have ANY rights as to their text being read aloud or not. If this holds up, our freedom of speech will literally be erased at a stroke! Corporate Bastards.

    All right, for arguments sake, I MIGHT understand if a company said specific corporate secrets (like passwords) cannot be read aloud BY EMPLOYEES as a necessary security precaution (if they have reason to be really paranoid). But CONSUMERS getting BOOKS that the company demanding this DOESN'T HAVE EVEN COPYRIGHT ON? Does this, for example mean, that if I have the book in my right hand and the laptop in the other I can't speak because I might be reading from the laptop? Yes it does. It may also preclude analysis like reading "Once upon a time a princess picked flowers in a meadow" and saying out loud "A long time ago a young girl played in a field."

    Corporate Bastards.

    -Ben
  • by rute_1 ( 190676 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:13AM (#559191) Homepage

    There is no way this can be correct. I suspect the image has been doctored. Look at all of the restrictions. The lines end with a period except the "Read Aloud" line.

    Someone needs to pay more attention when they are doctoring images....

  • ...what can be adequately ascribed to stupidity.

    Apparently there are a bunch of bits in the book format that are toggled on or off to indicate the various permissions. Obviously whoever converted the text simply forgot to set them appropriately.

    The response in this forum is really pathetic. If you're ranting here, you're either:

    a) Stupid, because you really believe a company would try to assert copyright on a world-renowned piece of literature that has been in the public domain for many, many years, or

    b) spiteful, because you KNOW they simply made a mistake, and you want to create a scandal by making a false accusation and hoping there are enough people who fall under a) above to buy it.

  • You all have it wrong. It doesn't mean you can't read it aloud. It means that the software's text-to-speech function won't read it aloud.

    Read this press release [glassbook.com] from Glassbook, where they specifically say "The Glassbook Plus Reader is a full-featured, ebook software that offers a two-page view, text-to-speech capability that pronounces words or enables the text to be read aloud..."

    But of course publisher control of fair use must stop, and I hope restricted-use e-books crash and burn in spectacular fashion.
    --

  • by phil reed ( 626 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:14AM (#559201) Homepage
    The only two email addresses I can find on their site are support@glassbook.com and info@glassbook.com. Their phone number is 781-434-2000. Offended slashdotters might want to ask those addresses what the hell is going on.


    ...phil
  • Voila! Poof instant explosion.
    Get the same results using copyriht and Slashdot.
    Relax folks. I would guess the following is the case. That the reader software needs extra bits to "Read Aloud" the book. Since the book was from Guttengerg it probably does not have these extra bits. It may be that it needs a translation dictionary to fully 'speak' all the words. Further more let's assume its like some of the original pdfs. The ones that - funny - you can't select text in. Gee then you can't copy text out of the file now can you? Perhaps the book needs these copying capabilities to either Lend or Give the book. So poof you can't give it away because their software can't deal with this book.
    Before people get further up in arms about the ADA ummm think for a minute. My real book copy of Alice in Wonderland can't read itself to me. Hell even the Gutenberg version can't read itself to you. (Although you can add software to accomplish this.) Are these also violations of the ADA?
    Consider that the "Permissions" are "Added Capabilities" not "You Are not Allowed to do this". I will agree that its poorly worded though.
    -cpd
  • by DoorFrame ( 22108 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:15AM (#559216) Homepage
    That looks like a very EASILY produced phoney. I'm not sure that it is phoney, but if it is it would have been very easy. It's on a weird site and it's got no background as far as I can tell. They don't talk about where it came from or how it was captured or anything. Seems questionable.

    Besides that though, doesn't it seem weird that they can admittedly take the text from project Guttenburg, and then throw on a ridiculous "You May Not Read This Out Loud" agreement to the end. Doesn't Project Guttenberg have some sort of GPL limiting what sort of stupid clauses may be attached to their works? If they don't have one, then maybe they should consider adding one.
  • by ackthpt ( 218170 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:18AM (#559236) Homepage Journal
    Well, how do you know they're not good bedtime story faire if you don't read them?
    Once upon a time a user will be granted use license of this product, such that duplicates may not be made, other than as a backup . This agreement does not grant the user privilige for public performance nor incorporating into other works the user intends to sell, lease or otherwise distrubute regardless of profit. ...etc ...etc ...etc

    The user shall indicate their acceptance of these terms and conditions by saying, "Yes, Big Brother"


    --

  • by m_chan ( 95943 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:29AM (#559244) Homepage
    Such restriction of access seems to indicate a bias towards non-compliance or thwarting of the Americans with Disabilities Act [usdoj.gov]. Forbidding audible rendition of the material, whether performed by human or machine, to someone incapable of accessing the material in the sole manner provided and allowed appears to me as mean-spirited at best.
  • by sjames ( 1099 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:32AM (#559256) Homepage Journal

    I think they just want public readings to be considered against the terms of the agreement.

    Even that is out of the question. The text is public domain now. They may have claims to the particular 'e-typesetting', but not to the words, or the story as a whole. By reading aloud, the reader is stripping away the typesetting and just conveying the public domain portion.

    Even if they publish a work that is still in copyright, no matter what their legal rights might be, it is against all convention to claim that reading aloud to a group or lending (either personally or by a library) is forbidden. It is also against the public good.

    Apparently, they also wish to prevent fair-use excerpts of any book (even one where the entire text is fair game). Next they will ban bad reviews, I suppose.

    What I really can't wait for is a book intended for children too young to read and their claim that it cannot be read aloud.

    The question also comes to mind, does text to speech for the visually impared count as reading aloud?

    Methinks I'll just store the text from Gutenberg and skip the copyright hairball. Glassbook? Thanks but no, thanks.

  • by legLess ( 127550 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:34AM (#559267) Journal
    Actually, all it implies is that the first name of the guy who submitted it - and who hosts it - is "Art." Duh - check the submission.
  • by jgennick ( 59014 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:28AM (#559269) Homepage
    I think they just want public readings to be considered against the terms of the agreement
    Even that's scary though. Currently I can buy a copy of a book and give a public reading, say to a group of kids at preschool. With licenses like this, I can forsee the day when we will have to pay extra to do that. In generaly, I think there's a trend by businesses go get people away from the "buy once, use forever" way of thinking. Corps would prefer that we "rent" and "license" everything. The day is soon coming when our Internet-enabled toaster will charge our credit cards for each slice of toast we make. This isn't a trend that I like.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 14, 2000 @07:36AM (#559275)
    I was sceptical myself so I installed the reader and the book and sure enough it is not doctored. So perhaps someone needs to pay more attention when claiming images are doctored.
  • by Carnage4Life ( 106069 ) on Thursday December 14, 2000 @08:01AM (#559278) Homepage Journal
    Download the E-book from Adobe's site [glassbook.com].

    Grabel's Law

It isn't easy being the parent of a six-year-old. However, it's a pretty small price to pay for having somebody around the house who understands computers.

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