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German EU Delegate Sues 'Unknown' Over Echelon 109

Posted by Hemos from the good-luck dept.
belbo writes: "The German newsservice Heise reports that Ilka Schroeder, member of the European Parliament, has instituted legal proceedings at two German courts over 'unknown persons in the U.S., the UK and the German government operating and / or tolerating the espionage system ECHELON, thus violating several patent protection laws'."
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German EU Delegate Sues 'Unknown' over Echelon More

German EU Delegate Sues 'Unknown' over Echelon

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  • Germany don't have a leg to stand on (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    So they sue the U.K and U.S anyway.

    Bear in mind that the amount of money that Germany has sunk into "reunification" and rebuilding most of East Germany is into the hundreds of billions of dollars. Thats not the mention the money lost through a week economy and the single currency. They know they're in trouble, and they need money fast.

    The easiest way to get it? Sue somebody. In fact, sue two whole nations, both of which have very boyant economies, and who are aparently "collaberating" against Germany. If they can make it stand up in court, they should be able to make a quick buck. $20 Billion at least, if the acusations are anything to go by.

    Poor old Germany. It's sad to see a once great nation stoop so low...
  • Americans seem to have a hard time understanding, that Europeans don't always sue to get money, but to actually put things right.
  • Who is being sexist here? Heise? The readers of /.? Echelon?
  • "Unknown" and "Anonymous Coward" ... can they possibly be related?

    Admit it, you hot grit lovers, you're operating Echelon aren't ya?

    Regards, Ralph.

  • Sorry dude.

    breathe.com [breathe.com] is already gone...

  • The debate about Echelon was always kept low-profile in Germany (and other non-UK Europe). Formal inquiry committees were (and still are) (to be) quite wishy-washy about the subject.

    So this young MP (of the German "green" party) filed suit against unknown so there is more force and behind investigations. Plus investigations of a states attourney are not as easy to manipulate or quieten as the work of some political committee.

    The lawsuit (as I understood) is not about patents (etc.) but about industry espionage. The confusion arose from the fact that the proper bill for industry espionage is just a part of the pantent & semiconductor bills...
  • Please do not post babelfish "translations". Most people know that crutch of a tool - the so-called translation often leads to misunderstandings as one can see from the follow-up postings.

    Sure, with babelfish you are faster ("first post"-syndrome) but very messy. So please do wait for much more correct manual translations.

    Thanks
    yabHuj
  • >(To give credit where due, however, the Germans have been pretty respectful of others' property the last 50 years.)

    We taught them a lesson in 1918, and they've hardly bothered us since then.

    Yeah, we did such a great job they came back in the 1940's for a second helping. Brought friends, too...

    Jay (=
  • This is one area where I can safely say I'm rooting for Echelon. Let's look at the two scenarios here, and tell me which one you think is worse:

    Echelon wins. This would most likely be due to "national security" concerns of various nations, or something similar to "protecting diplomatic relations" between the various countries. This is bad in that the (very likely) industrial espionage occurring because of Echelon will continue. However, with more widespread encryption both corporations and individuals will have the ability to foil such real-time monitoring technology. And, as has been proven, attempting to regulate encryption on the 'net is a losing cause.

    Patent laws win. Very bad. This establishes the precedent that almost everything is subserviant to patent laws. Have a program on your computer that is infringing on Ridiculous Patent #89245743025? The police knocked down your door and took your computer and refused to admit they even took it? Fourth Amendment? Sorry, they're all superceded by Patent laws. And, as has been shown, patents are becoming more and more strict to the point where ridculous ones (*cough*UTICA*cough) are becoming law.

    The bottom line is that if patent law is allowed to win here, basic concepts of national security and defense will be tossed out in the name of protecting corporate revenue stream. While this is nothing new, the extent to which it could potentially be taken is frightening.

    That and I want to see the case NSA v. Amazon.com. *g*
    -jdm

  • Then some lawyer will file a class action suit on behalf of all the kids who want to be in porn, but are being discriminated against because of their age.
  • "Yes. This is because Americans are not easily duped."

    hahaha... You're joking, right? Quick, someone mod the parent up as funny!
  • > And on top of it all the NATO docs are in German...
    > http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/echelon.jpg

    Uhm. I cant see your point. What are you trying to say?
  • Thats not the mention the money lost through a week economy


    Are you suggesting that a month economy would be more profitable? Or, perhaps, a day economy?

  • You got something wrong here...

    "he" is a she!!
  • It is interesting to see just how Babelfish translates things. So, Echelon violates a German patent on Semiconductors. Is this guy pissed because he is being spied on, or because Germany isn't getting its cut?
  • Not that he's talking about - that he's taking on, challenging his government. It's also been mentioned that he's part of the European Parliament - if so that's no mean feat.
  • Ooops - my apologies to Ilka if this is correct. My german is a little rusty.

  • You are either a troll and/or a total idiot.

    - UK economy is much smaller than Germany. The German economy is the third in the world, right behind Japan and before France
    - UK does not have a "very boyant economy" as you said - the UK economic boom was several years ago and is now slowing down (just look at Rover or any other UK car brand : they all got bought buy foreign car makers)
    - there is no "money lost" in a weak currency. Your imports are more expensive, but your exports get cheaper and hence, better. Many country volontarily decide to weaken their currency to boost their economy. Plus, for the German govt., the imports have almost no influence on the spendings (which are mostly salaries)
    - if there was any money to gain from this trial, it would be so ridiculous compared to the German governement budget that it would be totally useless.
    - they are NOT suing two nations, they are suing individuals (not known yet) from those two nations. In fact you can't sue a country at your local court.
    - they are not suing for money, they are suing to shut down Echelon (yeah - it's not a "get rich quick" scheme, what a novel idea for you)
  • NO ! Suing is NOT about money - suing is about justice. People who sue for money are just greedy bastards who believe a trial is a lottery game.
  • Apart from the fact they'd get nothing useful (well maybe some money but a gov't has lots of that, and never enough), it's not going to stop Echelon. After all, on the internet information is free to spread, and thus to obtain. Anyone may read it (if they can find it or get it to go through their routers).

    On the internet, there's only one way to protect data: encryption. Often, this is not needed (e.g. when posting on /.). But also, it is nescessary for buying online, sending messages from a country like Iran, China, etc.

    Echelon is useful to see how information flows. And if people don't use encryption, you also may get some interesting data.

    regards,
    Oscar

  • Who cares who wins? When one wants to see both sides fall, you root for whichever is behind, hoping that they beat the crap out of each other to the greatest degree possible before one finally wins. (Think play it to the bone, except you want both to lose rather than both win)
  • She's got an English CV [ilka.org] online (or résumé). Quite a busy young lady.
  • Between Echelon, Carnivore and CODIS, there's little privacy left [unquietmind.com].

  • Financial compensation is not the only goal of a lawsuit.
    In this case the goal is apparently to get a ruling that Echelon is wrong, and thereby force them to 'turn it off'.
  • Stoop so low? Remember World War I and World War II? This is actually a step up for them! They are almost normal.
  • Do some people undestand reality? Don't Altivore do the same things as Carnivore? Why must they use Carnivore instead?
    If sueing on patent infringement becomes successful (for Germany that is), then the Anglo-saxons will use Echelon to fight kiddy porn, and as you know, that's a holy war in which any method is authorized...

    I'm sceptical

  • It is exactally this attitude that is destroying America--the attitude that the government is untouchable and therefore can do whatever it wants. (Well, this and our DAMNED idea that a vote for anyone outside the Commercial party--either wing--is a wasted vote.)

    The government should not be our enemy, but big business is making it so. It is our only ally against big business. Both are necessary evils, but whereas the poor/not filthy rich have no real control over big business, they theoretically have some influence over government (If they would only insist on it as with this lawsuit).

    We need much more of this--creative ways to dig into government. Force as many new/honest people in there as possible (Which is why term limits are a good idea--hell, I would vote for making political choices by random selection--like jury duty!), and we need to stop saying nothing can be done!
  • I can't say I understand your argument. Echelon is evil and must fail. Spying on our enemies might be great for national security and all, but this system is too powerful to be allowed to exist. It's like giving our cops tactical nukes instead of guns - expect a lot of collateral damage.


    --

  • restaurant espionage activity

    Clearly Echelon does its decrypts with a Bistromathematic supercomputer.

  • I agree with you. In my opinion, the US will be tasting a lot of its own medicine in the future. It's good when someone sues the US because it's the best way to get something to change. The government doesn't care when other people have to pay through the nose but hopefully they'll end up in a lot of trouble on the courts so that they will modify certain policies.

    One example, though not related to computers and nerd stuff, is the fact that someone won 250$ million against Iran because it funds Hizbollah and a relative died in a terrorist attack in Israel. The US funded the Contras and other groups in South America which caused the death of hundreds of thousands of people. Although now they prosecute their former crownies, I feel that the US has a certain responsibility towards the remaining relatives. A responsibility of $250 million per person to be more accurate. Which would go first, the nice tax cut or the ridiculous awards?

    Since the US is Corporationist country, the best way to get something done is to use the system on its limits and try to cost as much money as possible to the people in power. Seeking excessive amounts of money every time the government infringes on any stupid patent, or every time it abuses civil rights, will have more impact than any election because all the main parties are paied about equally by the big corporation to ensure they do about the same things.

  • The biggest spying countries are (not ordered):
    -US
    -Canada
    -UK
    -Japan
    -France
    -Germany
    -Italy
    -China
    -South Africa

    Also notable are Cuba and Russia but these spy more on political and military targets.

    US + Canada + UK spy by capturing virtually every wireless transmission on earth. I suppose that in the Echelon project, Australia and NZ take care of the Pacific countries. With US funding and its territory (just next to Russia and Europe thanks to Artic), Canada is probably right next to the US or maybe even exceeds it. They share their data too.

    European countries and SA spy differently. They are more old fashion: bugs, stealing briefcase, etc. They do it a lot but don't share with each other. The problem with European countries, espcially France, is that a lot of industries are extensions of the government. So it is natural for the goverments to spy in the interestof their companies. American business people are easy preys because of their more trusting nature.

  • Let me start by saying "soem of my best friends are Germans."

    Well, you knwo what i mean. My old college roomate is first generation german-born-american. His Dad , a terrific guy, was a German foot-soldiar in WWII. I hold no grudges against any of them. His dad was hardly ina positio nto knwo what the Nazi leaders were up to and really thought he was "defending his country".

    Having said that, now let me say that, as a Jew, the line of reasoning you rpesented distrubs me greatly. Gemany is having a hard time keeping their edge in technology. The Asians are putting pressure on everyone. Between that and the hard times brought on by trying to absorb and rehabilitate their poorer half (East germany) I would gather that ecomonic times there are nto the best they've ever been.

    Its said that those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it. The last time Germany hit on hard times, they foudn a scape-goat-- the Jews. They maade themselevs believe that the Jews were comitting espionage and subverting their culture and that "takign care of the Jewish problem" would solve their problems.

    Once again, they are on hard times, and mumbling about the "anglo-szxons." This is VERY dsitrubing because it shows a propensity stil lexistant to view everything as clash between racial groups, rather then imntyernal problems that have to be solved.

    I've got news for you, EVERYONE commits a certain degree of industrail espionage. Don't tell me no German radio or TV manufacturer ever bought plans for an upcoming American product. Or that no german manufacturer ever payed for info on a ANOTHER german manufacturer. I don't buy it.

    It's business, not race, and Germans seeing it in racial terms is VERY scary to those of us with a memory.
  • I'm not defending a troll, but:

    • The UK economy isn't very much smaller than the German economy at all. Per capita GDP is about the same. Remember - Germany is a bigger country...
    • The UK Does have a very bouyant economy. But the economy is based almost entirely around the service/hi-tech industries. The German economy is mainly manufacturing. The car industry is a bad example as UK manufacturing has been having a rough ride for several years.
    • Its a case of striking a balance. If you have a very weak currency (like the Euro) then you have to pay more for raw-materials and other necessary imports. In Germany this is especially important as high-cost raw-materials will reduce operating profit of manufacturing industries on which the German economy is based.
  • It's interesting to note that he's just 22 and he's taking on his government
    She's a girl. Probably even a grrrl.
  • It could also be Kevin Mitnick he's one of _them _ you know.
  • or Canada.
  • Yeah, I don't know much about the german legal system, but I know that in the US you have to actually NAME all defendants (at least in civil suits). Or is this different becuase it is a "patent violation"? Don't you still have to sue some entity?
  • > As you will see, in 1999, the UK past France
    > with respect to GDP.

    No. Please think about it for a second and show us that the average British citizen is less nationalist and also smarter than the average British populist politician or journalist, who jumped on this statistical trick and screamed "hey, we've got a bigger one than the froggies!".

    It's only a matter of currency exchange rate, the Euro being undervalued these days. You need to compare at purchasing power parity when you do this kind of stuff. Think about it for a minute: in 1999, economic growth in France has been faster than in the UK. So, how could the UK suddenly become a bigger economy, while growing more slowly?

    When the Pound/Euro rate will have stabilized to a more reasonable level, the British economy will be between 10 and 15% smaller than the French one. Let me also remind you that, a few years ago, when the British pound was undervalued with respect to te Italian Lira, well, according to your method of calculation, UK would have been behind Italy. I don't recall any British saying that the UK had become the 6th economy of the world...
  • Your post does not deserve the 'Troll' moderation (It is not good enought for this)

    Btw, there is nothing revisionist in the original comment. It is sarcasm plain and simple, visible within a few miles.

    Revisionism is negating the idea of the Nazi genocid. The original post negated the whole idea of WWII, which is why it is sarcastic.

    Beware that by mis-using the term 'revisionism', you are actually disserving the victims of WWII by weakening it.

    Cheers,

    --fred

    PS: Beeing 3/4 german and 1/4 french, I could say that, yes, my family had problem with them.
  • Lol. This sarcastic comment should be modded up.

    Cheer,

    --fred
  • >(To give credit where due, however, the Germans have been pretty respectful of others' property the last 50 years.)

    We taught them a lesson in 1918, and they've hardly bothered us since then.

  • I would have thought the answer to this was obvious

    Germans care what happens in Germany :-)

    D.

  • The American way: "We have all this money ...

    Huh? Our debt's been fixed? Cool! Maybe now we WILL pay our UN 'dues'...
  • Thankyou for this great translation!!!

    This might be a ploy to get the "unknown" to step forward. If she presents a half decent case, and they don't come forward to defend themselves, they may be liable at a later date...

  • Yes, you "Europians" do a good job putting dictators in jail like Erich Honneker (former dictator of East Germany). Let's see, you "Europians" let him get asylum in the Chilean embassy and then let him get away to Moscow. So Pinochet gets prosecuted by the same government that gave Honneker asylum. Makes perfect sense, right wing dictators bad, left wing dictators good.

    Two words for why this suit goes nowhere: sovereign immunity.

  • for the article in english... anyhoo Looking at this, i am wondering when someone is going to create a world commision to govern the internet. you know , one tax etc. Which might just lead to the world economy taking its true form. The major countries are going to do it sooner or later.... I guess that will make the game fun again...
  • Danke. I didn't have time to post a human translation, so I'm glad someone from Germany did us the kindness. I had heard that ECHELON had been used for industrial counterespionage. I suspect that's hard to differentiate that from industrial espionage when you get into the details. The Babelfish translation reminds me of about 25 years ago when I was checking out a series of automated translations of technical books from the USSR. I found one of particular interest on methods of operations research. I started reading it and it sounded familiar. So I checked out the author listing: Morz i Kimbal. It had originally been published in English...
  • You still didn't get it, did you? Governments of western nations nowdays tend to protect their economics first, since economical power is very important. The CIA has a long history of working for the domestic industry. Everywhere where American interests are at stake (business interests becoming more and more important) a government agency steps in. The only possible explanation for the ban that used to be on encryption products is, that it would be harder for US government agencys to decrypt those messages. They even said it. The US software industry is dominating the market, so the government just weighted the lost market share of their software industry through not incorparating standard strong encryption in, let's say, their email programs such as MS Outlook against the loss of their ability to filter an even larger amount (because of the plain text) of emails for usefull information mostly to supply to the domestic industry. Since nowdays a lot of (European and Asian) companys secure their emails anyways or do not send any confidential over the Internet the US government could lift the ban... They still have Echolon and other projects, set up to spy against military foes, but used against any foe. Business is business! (Ever heard of those cool subs, that sit right next to underwater cables to listen and filter through all the telefon calls going through?) Ever wondered why the NSA needs so strong computers? You can't listen to all calls with humans...
  • [ > ] Echelon: Display approximately unknown Ilka Schroeder, member of the European parliament, refunded o'clock on today's Monday at 10.00 with the Chief Federal Prosecutor, with the public prosecutor's office trusting stone and with the public prosecutor's office Berlin display against Echelon. The display was issued against " unknown suspects in particular from the USA and Great Britain as well as if necessary the German Federal Government because of operation and tolerating the espionage system ECHELON ". Schroeder appoints itself thereby to reports of Duncan Campbell and article in Telepolis. The legal lever it sets with the Chief Federal Prosecutor with its competence for the pursuit of certain offences against the patent -, for semiconductor law for the protection and utility model. Schroeder assumes in its charge, which is present Telepolis that " these regulations become obviously hurt by the described restaurant espionage activity of the suspects ". How Schroeder said this morning opposite Telepolis, she wants to lift the discussion with the charge " over Echelon on another political level ". Since passed week the taking place investigation in the " not-constant committee " of the European parliament is " too little zielorientiert".(Christiane Schulzki Haddouti)
  • Hoi you !
    I'm british and so are a lot of my friends but we're not anglo-saxons. A lot of australians, candians, newzealanders and yanks aren't anglo-saxons either!
  • Legal attack against Echelon

    Christiane Schulzki Haddouti 16.10.2000

    Charge refunds green European Union delegates

    Ilka Schroeder, member of the European parliament, refunded o'clock on today's Monday at 10.00 with the Chief Federal Prosecutor, with the public
    prosecutor's office trusting stone and with the public prosecutor's office Berlin display against Echelon. The display was issued against " unknown
    suspects in particular from the USA and Great Britain as well as if necessary the German Federal Government because of operation and tolerating
    the espionage system ECHELON ".

    Schroeder appoints itself thereby to reports of Duncan Campbell , Florian Roetzer and Antje Endell in the DUD . The legal lever it sets with the Chief
    Federal Prosecutor with its competence for the pursuit of certain offences against the patent -, for semiconductor law for the protection and utility model. Schroeder
    assumes in its charge, which is present Telepolis that " these regulations are obviously violated by the described restaurant espionage activity of the suspects ". The
    local competence of the other public prosecutor's offices comes out from the scene. The public prosecutor's office trusting stone is responsibly for bath Aibling, Berlin
    responsible for from the foreign country from organized criminal offences against Federal citizens. Schroeder calls, Menwith Hill and Morwenstow the NSA
    Abhoeranlagen in away Meade.

    D IE interception activities justified the eight that against the regulations patent will offend -, semiconductor law for the protection and utility model. Additionally " the
    privacy of the word " after 201 StGB one hurt. Data are verlezt if necessary spied, that secrecy of letters, which offends against the Paragrafen 202 and 20à of the
    StGB. Besides other operation and professional secrets with technical means were used - Paragraf 17 UWG, whereby the German criminal law is applicable to an
    act committed abroad after Paragraf 20 UWG probably.

    Also for the Federal Government could result a criminal responsibility, if it did not fulfill its protection obligation in favor of German citizens and enterprises
    enstprechend - " by being supposed in required intensity at the governments of the operator states on omission of the monitoring urge ". This comes from the Basic
    Law article 2 (informational right of self-determination) and 10 (distance reporting liberty).

    Schroeder has at least support by the French European parliament delegate Thierry Jean Pierre. It had referred to in a writing to the French public prosecutor's office
    the damage of citizens and enterprises by Echelon, which thereupon in May 2000 according to acknowledgement of its speaker Jean Pierre Vorermittlungsverfahren had initiated.

    How Schroeder said this morning opposite Telepolis, she wants to lift the discussion " with the charge over Echelon on another political level ". The discussion in " the
    not-constant committee " of the European parliament is " target-oriented too few ". Schroeder: " Beside the rather toothless committee work of the parliament and the
    use of encoding technology by computer users also the attempt belongs to proceed legally against the violation of the privatsphaere. " Schroeder belongs to the
    committee as a stellvertrendes member.

  • yeah getting closer, but it is much wider spread than just US/UK. You are forgetting about all the pacific nations, including Australia. The countries involved are the UKUSA alliance nations. Read [anu.edu.au] about it in a writeup about a tv docco that was shown here in Aus
  • After reading a whole bunch of the messages here (at least those scored 1 and above...), I came to the conclusion that most of the folks posting here got their mind stuck sometimes back in the early 1940's. It's embarassing to see such comments from a community of people I thought to be a little more open-minded. I hear you say "why should I care about the german's problems"... Well, it's not the germans fault that US agencys like the NSA (they exist. Just admit it!) went around the world and built a complex array of espionage electronics, both based on ground installations and a global sattelite network, under the false premise that it'd be used to "push back the red threat"... Whatever that should mean. It's well known that information is sold to the highest bidding party, and I'm not talking about military data but stuff like treatys worth a whole bunch of money.
    Hey, I know a good use for all those leftover SSMs and ICBMs. Use those to get rid of some no longer needed legacy.
    Kids, grow up and realize that it's the beginning of a new millenium in just 2.5 more months!
  • Well, it sounds like I'm a bit out of date as to the details of Airbus ownership but I think you'd find that France, England, and Germany unabashedly feel that "what's good for Airbus is good for the country", and I'm not even sure they're wrong. Regardless of actual ownership, the health of Airbus is clearly in the national interests of France, Germany, and the UK, and to assume that their work stops at salesmanship is simply naive.

    Commercial intelligence covers a lot of ground. Sometimes it means counting containers unloaded from a ship. Sometimes it means drinking in bars frequented by executroids of the other company. Sometimes it means paying for information. I'm not suggesting that the UK uses hired assassins, or that France is sabotaging 767's. It's not like Boeing is some menacing foreign power like Greenpeace.

  • Yet another piece of totally ridiculous non-logic from the /. readership. I suppose you think I'm richer than China because my income's more than the Chinese average.

    Get a brain. (Oh, incidentally, Germany has one of the biggest financial services sectors in the world. Britain sucks at high-tech industries, except some bio-technology.)

  • I can see a large consumer base for this product ...

    Let's discuss the marketing strategy.
  • The typical American way. Just because they are doing something to fight the system (your stuppid system filled with stupid laws), they are doing it to make some money. Just to remenber that after YOUR SYSTEM trained generals that eventualy maid it to nice guys like pinochet, it was us Europians that had to try to put thoese guys in jail. The American way: "We have all this money to pay to the UN what are we going to do?? Lets bomb bosnia !" Erery time some of your presidents is in a mess some small country will get bombed.
  • Anyone care to post a translation?
  • You're right, but you won't get any points for your comment. Your posting contradicts the American/Slashdot/GPL doctrine, and is therefore deemed unacceptable.
  • Always worried about "Leben und Lieben am Bunkertor Sieben!" When will they ever learn?
  • Is this just a cunning ploy by the Germans to work out who is the big cheese behind Echelon? You know, "Identify yourself so I can sue you!". So, it'll be Deutschland vs "Number 1" (*) from the UK and Baron Silas Greenback (**) from the USA.

    * From The Prisoner
    ** From Dangermouse, who wasn't fighting an ugly toad, but the almighty buck itself!
  • "I didn't know slashdot allowed articles in foren languages."

    Uh, do you see a ".us" at the end of the domain name?

    "Besides, who cares what happens in Germany?"

    Oh, lots of people care... They cared back in 1914, They cared in 1938, etc, they cared when we (meaning the collective nations that defeated them back then) broke the country into pieces, etc...
  • ...with the public prosecutor's office trusting stone...

    See you always get in trouble when you trust stone. Try trusting something like gravel or concrete...stone just cant be relied upon. Did i ever tell you about how I was raped by granite?

    "sex on tv is bad, you might fall off..."
  • Ich möchte mich um den Job als Übersetzer für alle Ihre deutschen Geschichten bewerben.
  • when some one gives a link to an article in a language other than english he should expand more. The article got me interested but the link was a disappointment.
  • no shit?
    you're a sharp one - be careful you might cut yourself.
  • And on top of it all the NATO docs are in German...
    http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/echelon.j pg

    I mean fine that you are crying "RAPE", but don't sleep with the offender for over 50 years before doing so. Ok, that was a bit blunt, they have been invaded by the good guys.
    Still, they don't have to ditch a lot of money for defense nor do "they have to develop any geopolitical strategy for themselves" like let's say France, Israel (cough cough) or South Africa.
    That last quote was straight out of one of SHAPE's meeting though :>

    Just like a S.T.A.C B-52 crashing in your backyard, ECHELON is one of those things that NATO requires of you for years of services I guess.

  • Re:Ilka has a home page (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I thought this [ikea.com] was the Ikea homepage?

    Oh, wait...

  • Besides, who cares what happens in Germany?

    Well, I'm sure Germans and most Europeans do. Besides, I think what they're doing is good, not doing anything over Echelon is accepting it. Even if this lawsuit might not actually do anything, it might wake up a few people with ties. Heck, 99% of Internet users probably have no ideas what kind of "privacy acts" some govs are promoting.

  • "Oh, incidentally, Germany has one of the biggest financial services sectors in the world"

    The biggest foreign exchange market is of course in London (just last year it was bigger than Tokyo and New York combined). But who cares, eh?
  • Check this link out to see some real figures: http://www.oecd.org/std/gdp.htm [oecd.org]

    As you will see, in 1999, the UK past France with respect to GDP. Germany's GDP is 50% greater the UK's. I dunno what the size of the German population is these days, but the UK's is between 55 and 60 million. The UK showed good GDP growth between 96 and 99, while Germany showed declined. Of course, these figures do not include this year, when I believe Germany has been reviving.

    "The German economy is the third in the world, right behind Japan and before France "

    Between Japan and the UK.

    "- UK does not have a "very boyant economy" as you said - the UK economic boom was several years ago and is now slowing down (just look at Rover or any other UK car brand : they all got bought buy foreign car makers) "

    The manufacturing sector was in recession a couple of years ago. At the same time, other parts of the economy were over-heating. The economy overall was still growing. Manufacturing, and car production in particular, are not indicative of the whole. Hey, Germany might have a F1 world champion... but most of the successful teams are British (will Ferrari make it this year again?)
  • > > If Echelon is reality (and that's a big "if"), the US is the only player.

    > Actually, everything that I've ever seen on Echelon suggests that it's a joint U.S./U.K. project.

    Echelon is run by UKUSA (pronounced "you-queue-sah") consisting of the United Kingdom, United States and Australia. The whole Echelon thing came to the fore after an Australian Govt official made comment about a facility in Australia and what it's purpose was.
  • Well, I'm sure Germans and most Europeans do. Besides, I think what they're doing is good, not doing anything over Echelon is accepting it. Even if this lawsuit might not actually do anything, it might wake up a few people with ties.

    And if significant evidence becomes public that the US is stealing trade secrets for commercial advantage, expect that fact to be used as a negotiating point in the next GATT (General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade) rounds.

  • In other news, Reggie Canute, member of the European Parliament, obtained an injunction from a German court, enjoining the tide from coming in.
  • If the US gov't spends so much on intelligence, how come they're all so damn stupid?
  • As noted in this story:

    http://slashdot.org/articles/00/03/12/1910255.sh tml

    (Follow the link to the link of the full story)

    Here's the headline blurb:

    "Former United States Central Intelligence Agency director James Woolsey confirmed in Washington this week that the U.S. steals economic secrets 'with espionage, with communications [intelligence], with reconnaissance satellites,' and that there was now 'some increased emphasis' on economic intelligence. He claimed that economic spying was justified because European companies had a 'national culture' of bribery and were the 'principle offenders from the point of view of paying bribes in major international contracts in the world.'" And he says the U.S. government doesn't deliver corporate secrets to U.S. companies - unless it would benefit them. How reassuring. The source is Heise Online (the publishers of c't). The full article is available in English. See also the recent European report Interception Capabilities 2000 (summary), which the former director said was "intellectually honest."

    Scary !

    Frank
  • Not ECHELON itself is the object in question,
    but it's usage to obtain information about
    patented technologies.

    I think you could call it "industrial espionage"
  • The UK economy isn't very much smaller than the German economy at all. Per capita GDP is about the same. Remember - Germany is a bigger country...

    You are right about the GDP/capita being close, but wrong about the conclusion. Following your logic, Monaco has a bigger economy than US (it has a way bigger GDP/capita than the US)... per capita GDP is fine for evaluating the living standard of a country, but for the size of the economy it is useless. Germany really has a much bigger economy than UK, eventhought the average German has about the same living standard as the average British gentleman (except when both go to the hospital : you don't want to be in the UK when that happens, unless you like dying a painfull death on the waiting list).
  • "Everyone knows that those shifty Europeans can never be trusted, and are only out to swindle honest decent americans, so they had it coming!"

    And, of course, not a single fact to back it up.

  • Nah (Score:2)

    by Greyfox ( 87712 )
    It's quite common these days to file a "John Doe" lawsuit. It's been done in cases of suspected stock fraud and by Apple when they were trying to find leaks, among others.

    First you file the lawsuit. That gives you a wide latitude to "go fishing." You can supoena any information you think is relevant to the case. IE: Names of people who posted (they thought) anonymously through some Internet service. Usually once you have the names you drop the lawsuit and induldge in a round of firings. This is one of the few "John Doe" cases I've seen which is intended to be followed through.

  • She's probably pissed about being spied on, but she found a way to process the problem vie an anti-industrial espionage act in Germany. It's a normal legal manouver of getting what you want through some legal loophole.
    `ø,,ø`ø,,ø!
  • You have demonstrated an intellectual acumen and political awareness unseen in decades. Oh, no, wait. No you haven't. My bad.
  • there are some [politicians] left with ethical driven visions of what's right and what's not.

    Moderators: +1, Funny, please!
    The typical response from people who find it easier to believe that every politician is corrupt than to actually follow their actions and arrive at a conclusion based on that. There are 100 U.S. senators, 435 members of the House of Representatives, 50 governors, 1 President, and countless local and state legislators and executives. You really think the idea that ALL of them are corrupt has any basis in truth? Here's some news; they're like us. Some of them are honest, some are not. A lot of them are trapped by the system; they need to accept financial contributions, or else they have no chance of getting elected.

    When asked in the street about what they think of issues or candidates, too many Americans come up with the stock answer of "oh, I think none of them candidates are any good", because it's pretty easy to fake lack of knowledge as worldweariness, and it makes them feel better than admitting they don't really know about the issues would.

    Yes, I'm an American, and I'm part of a generation that has become "disillusioned with politics" as it's said. Personally, I'm not. Politicians today aren't any better or worse than in the past, and the system has actually improved somewhat in the past few decades.
    --
  • Although I usually don't answer to trolls...
    At least you should get the facts right, before you make wrong conclusions. Norway is not part of the EU, never has been. Therefore it was never asked about the Euro and can't bail out.
    Maybe you're referring to the referendum in Denmark, but they didn't bail out, just decided not to join. However their currency is bound to the Euro anyway...

  • "And just what do they get if they win their lawsuit?"

    If you start by assuming there is a reason for suing an unknown party, your reasoning is likely to achieve better results than maligning somebody in ignorance.

    After one sues an unknown party, the plaintiff then subpoenas documents and deposes witnesses. This may include motions asking the court to compel production and testimony. The purpose is to discover the identity of the defendant. E.g., one might get the court to order various government officials to tell who is running Echelon, or one might order a landlord to identify their tenant or a supplier to identify their customer.

    After the plaintiff discovers the defendant's identity, they file a motion to amend the complaint and an amended complaint that names the defendant. Then the suit proceeds as any other, with the possibility for injunctions, compensation, punitive damages, et cetera.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Just out of curiousity, did your coworkers ever claim that Airbus, as a government-sponsored firm, didn't have access to intelligence data? As a matter of fact, I've always used Boeing as an example of a private corporation which would need very high grade encryption, precisely because their chief competitor is a consortium of world-class governments.

    It's not like the French have ever been reluctant to lie, cheat, steal, and kill when their interests were threatened, and the SAS has been mentioned in some pretty odd places too.

    (To give credit where due, however, the Germans have been pretty respectful of others' property the last 50 years.)

  • and something called semicondunctor protection law (which i never heard of before).
    Semiconductor protection law is a copyright law for chip designs, it protects firms like intel,amd,nvidia ... against stealing of their chip designs. it is forbidden by semiconductor protection law to put an chip under an electron microscope and reproduce it without an license from the original design firm. i think in other country this is simply done with the copyright law.
  • It's at http://www.ilka.org [ilka.org] but it's all in german [altavista.com].

    It's interesting to note that he's just 22 and he's taking on his government :o) Oh and mine :o)

  • Talk about colossal wastes of time! (Score:3)

    by cruise ( 111380 ) on Monday October 16, 2000 @02:45AM (#703611) Homepage
    And just what do they get if they win their lawsuit? A visit from the unknown comic? Perhaps a beter waste of money would be to name the unkown people and lobby for laws against theirs and other countries from participating. But again, it's all just a waste of money cause these .gov types are above the law.


    They are a threat to free speech and must be silenced! - Andrea Chen
  • This is a *German person* (politician, but doesn't matter) suing *people* from the UK, US and Germany itself, namely the people who operate and tolerate Echelon, breaching a bunch of German laws. If the German government knows about Echelon in Germany and is not acting against it, they could go to jail personally.

    Of course, a lawsuit against "Unknowns" is going to have problems...

    But no, he's not suing states. He's not asking for money either, he wants them to stop and go to jail.

  • Say what? (Score:3)

    by mekkab ( 133181 ) on Monday October 16, 2000 @02:44AM (#703613) Homepage Journal
    from babbelfish: " these regulations become obviously hurt by the described restaurant espionage activity of the suspects ".
    This wouldn't be the first time restaurant espionage has ruined lives. Especially when your "industrial secrets" are actually french fries and you return from the rest room to find them stolen!


    Sorry, haven't had my coffee yet.
  • European governments collectively spend a fraction of what the US spends on defense and (counter)-intelligence; a single European government spends probably two orders of magnitude (at least) less, and some countries three orders of magnitude less.

    And a lot of that is because many European countries are several orders of magnitude smaller than the U.S., and they depend on cost saving approaches like conscription to keep their costs low. Their military spending per capita may be somewhat lower than the U.S., but not orders of magnitude lower. And of course most of the EU countries are also in NATO, so they're also depending fairly heavily on the U.S. military to defend them, which helps keep their costs lower.

    That said, there's every evidence that many European companies aim their intelligence apparatus much more heavily at Industrial espionage than the U.S. As was pointed out above, everyone knows that the French government loves to pass on useful information to French industry, and my impression is that they're just the most obvious case. The relationship between industy and government has always been closer just about everywhere in Europe than in the United States in other areas, like subsidies, government ownership, etc., so it's not too surprising that passing of intelligence information should be too. IMHO, part of the reason that so many people in Europe are quick to accuse the U.S. of industrial espionage and people in the U.S. are so reluctant to admit it is because the Europeans know that they'd pass on secrets that they turned up, while Americans generally don't view doing so as a valid or acceptable role of government.

    If Echelon is reality (and that's a big "if"), the US is the only player.

    Actually, everything that I've ever seen on Echelon suggests that it's a joint U.S./U.K. project.

  • Re:And I'm suing... (Score:3)

    by McChump ( 218559 ) on Monday October 16, 2000 @03:37AM (#703615)
    Listen, don't any of you people understand *strategy*? If someone sues Echelon for patent infringement, they have a good chance of forcing disclosure of how Echelon works . . . thereby allowing programmers to route around it . . . thereby making it useless.

    --J

  • Re:Industrial espionage and "unknown" (Score:3)

    by StrontiumDog ( 226744 ) on Monday October 16, 2000 @04:58AM (#703616)
    European governments collectively spend a fraction of what the US spends on defense and (counter)-intelligence; a single European government spends probably two orders of magnitude (at least) less, and some countries three orders of magnitude less.

    In addition Europe is not a country, nor is the EU, and forces are definitely not being pooled as far as espionage and military intelligence go.

    While European governments are probably not innately morally any "purer" than the US, the US is way out there on its own as far as Echelon-like practices go. If Echelon is reality (and that's a big "if"), the US is the only player.

  • Patent protection laws? (Score:4)

    by Millennium ( 2451 ) on Monday October 16, 2000 @02:41AM (#703617)
    Ano... ano...

    Um... I can't say I saw that one coming. Who'd have thought you could apply patent law in fighting this thing? And given the US government's subservience to corporations (Nader put it best when he talked about "patenting everything under the sun"), I don't think this is one corner they'll be able to back out of very easily.

    Well, this is a fine dilemma to be in. On one hand, it's a patent issue relating to software (though I don't think Germany allows software patents anyway, so that's not the issue in and of itself). On the other hand, it's a case of fighting Echelon. Hmmm; who to root for...
    ----------

  • Translation (Score:4)

    by yooden ( 115278 ) on Monday October 16, 2000 @03:22AM (#703618) Homepage
    Ilka Schröder, Member of the European Parliament, today at 10:00 filed suit at the Generalbundesanwalt [attorney general] and the public prosecutors in Traunstein and Berlin against Echelon. The suit was filed against "unknown person or persons, especially from the USA or the UK and, if appropriate, the [German] Federal Government for operating and tolerating the espionage system ECHELON."
    Schröder refers to reports from Duncan Campell and articles in Telepolis. Her juristic lever for calling the Generalbundesanwalt is his responsibility for the prosecution of certain violation against the 'Bill for Protection of Patents, Registered Designs and Semiconductors'. Schröder suggests in her charge, which is available to Telepolis, that "the bill is apparently violated by the reported acts of industrial espionage of the suspects"
    As Schröder told Telepolis earlier today, she filed suit to "raise the discussion about Echelon to a different political level". The inquiry in the Non-permanent Commission of the European Parliament taking place since last week is "not targetted enough", according to Schröder.
    (Author: Christiane Schulzki-Haddouti)

    Telepolis is Heise's "net culture magazine" with a larger article [heise.de] about it. MP Schröder's Homepage has a homepage [ilka.org].

  • Translation (non-babelfish) (Score:5)

    by yabHuj ( 10782 ) on Monday October 16, 2000 @03:12AM (#703619) Homepage
    Echelon: sueing unknown

    Ilka Schröder, member of the European Parliament, sued "Unknown" against Echolon today (modnay 10:00 local time) at the federal high court, and locally in Traunstein and Berlin.

    The suit is directed against "unknown suspects fom USA, UK and possibly the german federal government because of operation and/or operation of the espionage system ECHELON".

    The lawsuit is based on reports by Duncan Campbell and reports in Telepolis [yabHuj: a german magazine, see e.g. http://www.heise.de/tp/de uts ch/special/ech/6998/1.html [heise.de]]. The juristic lever is the federal states attourney (Generalbundesanwalt) because he is responsible for pursuing certain cases of violations against patent and semiconductor laws [yabHuj: read: industry espionage]. Schröder suspects in her suit (of which Telepolis has a copy) that
    vermutet in ihrer Strafanzeige, die Telepolis vorliegt, dass "these regulations are violated by the industry espionage described".

    As Schröder said this morning, she wants to haul the discussion about Echelon onto a different political level. Since last week there are inquiries by a nonpermanent committee of the European Parliament which are "way too unfocussed". (Christiane Schulzki-Haddouti)

  • If you'll recall the DeCSS lawsuit ... (Score:5)

    by FreeUser ( 11483 ) on Monday October 16, 2000 @04:06AM (#703620)
    Yeah, I don't know much about the german legal system, but I know that in the US you have to actually NAME all defendants (at least in civil suits).

    Have you forgotten the DeCSS lawsuit already?

    When the MPAA decided to persue its (illegetimate) persecution of persons unnamed for posting links to DeCSS, many (If I recall correctly, the vast majority) of the defendents were listed as "John Doe #1" Through "John Doe #N", where N was some rediculous number like 90 or so.

    In other words, a whole bunch of "unknowns" are being sued by the Motion Picture Association of America.

    The German verbiage is simply more explicit, honestly stating that the offending parties are not known, rather than merely implying it by listing a fictitious name. (I've always found the assumption in using the name "John Doe" that the offendor is male rather amusing).

    From what I have been able to learn, both systems appear to allow lawsuits against unidentified parties, if the harm done can be identified, documented, and proven. Should the parties later be positively identified, they will be held liable.

  • Industrial espionage and "unknown" (Score:5)

    by Get Behind the Mule ( 61986 ) on Monday October 16, 2000 @03:48AM (#703621)
    As an American posting from Germany, let me just contribute two bits of information. The assumption is that Anglo-Saxons are conducting industrial espionage. This assumption is widely held (it's not just Ilka Schröder), and it's deeply resented.

    I worked for a year at the Airbus airplane plant in Hamburg, and there are elaborate security mechanisms in place there. They said that they had already caught a couple of spies. Their only opponent, obviously, is Boeing.

    I know that many of my fellow Yanks will resent this assumption, but let me gently remind you that our nation's espionage activities over the past decades have so thoroughly ruined our moral reputation that this reaction can hardly be surprising. Wake up, floks. When you send the CIA out to assassinate, topple governments and support thugs as often as we have, it's certainly not difficult to imagine our spooks stealing business secrets.

    Also, many of you are getting a kick out of this "unknown" business, but this is just what they about an investigation when wrongdoing is suspected but nobody's certain who's doing it. When some of my stuff was stolen a few years ago, I reported it to the poilce and they initiated an investigation against "unknown". You can do the same thing in civil procedures. The purpose is simply to get a formal investigation going, so that you maybe find out who "unknown" is.

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