Your Tivo Is Watching You 155
photozz writes: "Salon is running this story about Tivo and their plans to track user viewing habits for targeted ads. It also explores their stance on the 'hacking' of the Tivo for more memory." According to their CEO Mike Ramsay, "We do that in a non-personal way, protecting everybody's privacy," but the details of the actual data aggregation aren't addressed here. That the data is gathered should come as no surprise to anyone who notes that Tivo features a "learning" program-suggestion feature, but the mechanism and how closely data is linked to the customer is something I wish they would explain in more detail.
Is it any surprise? (Score:1)
- A.P.
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"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
Huh? (Score:1)
They aren't already? (Score:1)
Just imagine the cash-flow associated with that kind of demographic information.
Oh man... (Score:2)
So; show of hands. Who has already ripped video from their Tivo? From the FAQ [tivofaq.com], it looks like they're working on this...
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [ncsu.edu].
good god (Score:2)
they have a pretty decent privacy policy (Score:5)
Bold is mine. This is light years ahead of most privacy policies, and they seem to be upfront about what info they use and what they don't.
Truly anonymous targeted ads are a Good Thing, as long as they are (let's repeat that) truly anonymous. They bring revenue for the company and are perhaps even useful to the consumer. (How much revenue is another thing - he flat-out admits that 80% of people fast-forward the ads.)
No Need TiVo. (Score:3)
ALL-IN-WONDER RADEON [ati.com]
simple solution (Score:5)
Targetted advertising is *good* (Score:2)
TiVO is providing its customers with a useful service, and people react whining and throwing a fit just because TiVO's real-world policies don't fit in with certain ultra-libertarian ideals. Look, it's one thing to track information about your personal life. But setting up a targetted advertising scheme based on your TiVO viewing preferences isn't a crime -- hell, TiVO is doing you a favor. They could just throw random commercials on the screen like every other TV network; instead, they're trying to cater to each user individually.
Stop whining and give TiVO the respect they deserve for bringing new life to the dusty old idiot box.
?memory? (Score:1)
Of course your Tivo is watching you. (Score:2)
When you listen to Rush Limbaugh or Micheal Reagan, do you think that you're just sitting back and listening to real Americans talk about the current sordid state of affairs in your country? Do you think that agents of the government don't care that you listen to these patriots? They do. I have several acquaintances that work at high levels within the United States "national security" system, and believe me when I tell you that they know who each and every one of us are. Each of us who chooses to listen to Rush instead of Geraldo Rivera is being monitored by the federal government in case we decide to do something un-American, such as speak out against the liberals that run this country (God forbid!)
Liberalism is about two things: first, the enslavement of children and second, the suppression of any and all opinions that run contrary to it. To that end, the government has established a vast network of surveillance devices capable of monitoring us wherever we may be. Think you're safe at the gun range or at church? Think again. They're watching our every move. And let me tell you, friends
Look. We don't have to worry about Tivo or other corporations "watching us." They are, after all, not government agents. They are corporations in pursuit of wealth creation, and the creation of wealth is among the Godliest things that a person or entity can aspire to do. If a corporation wishes to target entertaining advertisements at us that aid us in our quest to engage in conspicuous consumption (as is every American's duty), then we should be applauding them. That is not the problem. The problem is leftist government agencies monitoring everything we do.
I suggest every Slashdot reader keep aware of these issues by constantly monitoring WorldNet Daily [worldnetdaily.com], which is about the only objective source of news left in this country. There is far too much at stake here for us to sit back and remain complacent. Only by rising up against our government will we regain our freedom.
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
It's freaky. Hell, I bought a Chapters card without realizing it the other day, now they can track my buying habits. And all cause I'm so cheap I'm willing to sell my info for 10% off.
This might not be so bad actually. (Score:4)
Some good could come from this. (Score:1)
I've always belived that the statistical data collected by the ratings players was deeply flawed, since the only people who participate do so by being paid money, as well as know their viewing habits can have a dramatic effect on the world of television.
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
slavery is freedom, ignorance is strength, and 2 + 2 = 5.
We've ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia, you know!
Lycanthrope K 75189. The telescreen is your friend.
What's the big deal? (Score:3)
From a statistics point of view, a single persons viewership profile is insignificant. Nobody would ever look at your stats specifically and say "Wow, this fellow sure likes watching the Playboy Channel". They need to amalgamate the stats from thousands of viewers to get any information that's of use. So it's not like anyone is spying directly on you.
"I can only show you Linux... you're the one who has to read the man pages."
TiVo clearly posted thier privacy policy. (Score:1)
Re:simple solution (Score:1)
Your point is certainly valid (you don't have a citizenship right to Tivo service), but not as broadly applicable as you suggest.
TV sans commercials... (Score:3)
"Let's try and target some commercials for him."
"Yeah what commercials does he watch."
"Um none."
"Alright kick in the subliminals."
Re:?memory? (Score:1)
other related tivo d (Score:4)
Hacke rs don't upset TiVo--yet [cnet.com]
Looks like the discussion started from this site :
The unofficial TiVo Hackers Site [tivofaq.com]
And the fact that the CEO is _okay_ with it is pretty interesting. But what's kinda scary is this quote
"One of the reasons we've created the receiver the way we have is that the disk is sealed into the receiver; you cannot get access to the digital information. So we are somewhat concerned about the ability of people to hack in and get access to the copyrighted material because obviously our partners in the media industry are very concerned about this. "
What! A SEALED disk is what's protecting this information?! Okay, I'm sure this isn't the case (let's hope not!) but still, kind of a funny quote nevertheless
Q: So you're afraid that people will save a bunch of movies, then transfer them from TiVo to their computers and eventually the Net. How possible is this?
A: It's an incredibly difficult task. It's one thing to record what you see onto the TiVo drive, but the format on that drive and how you get access to that drive is totally proprietary to us. It would be very difficult for somebody to actually hack into that. And as far as we know, no one is doing that today.
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Security through obscurity (Score:4)
So you're afraid that people will save a bunch of movies, then transfer them from TiVo to their computers and eventually the Net. How possible is this?
It's an incredibly difficult task. It's one thing to record what you see onto the TiVo drive, but the format on that drive and how you get access to that drive is totally proprietary to us. It would be very difficult for somebody to actually hack into that. And as far as we know, no one is doing that today.
Security through obscurity... Yeah, that'll work. NOT!
Someone must have thought of this before, but how easy would it be to make one yourself? A capture card, a large hard disk, a cheap processor... Sure, it'd cost more than US$399, but then you'd be calling the shots. That's gotta be worth it.
Has anyone done anything on this?
Privacy (Score:3)
To tell you the absolute truth, I cant see how TIVO knowing what I watch, even if its tied to me by mention of my name or whatnot, can effect me in any way. I mean, on the net, I want privacy from corporations and individuals because its more personal information at stake (credit card information, visiting 'questionable' sites :). But when I'm watching TV, I WANT Them to know I skip over the sh*itty shows and watch others. Then I will be effecting what they play, and will, in a very small way, effect what they play.
I know a lot of you are saying that this will enable targeted advertisments, Good! at least I wont have to sit through tampon comercials!. And I can always walk out of the room for a snack, its not like targeted ads are more evil then non-targeted ads. and they will probably be limited to a banner anyway since tivo is a bit limited in video capabilities.
And the last argument to tracking what people watch that people often make, that it reveals something about that person to the mega-corporation-super-consperacy. They know that you watch SURVIVOR!! OOOH.
my point is there isn't too much incriminating content on TV, unlike the Internet. Because its so filtered and such a massive media, the only thing they will learn is that you watched the same thing as 500,000 other people that night.
To that, I say big deal. Privacy as an issue matters on the Internet, but I personally don't think it has much bearing on television viewing habits.
Re:Targetted advertising is *good* (Score:1)
The one thing that ads are potentially good for is in introducing you to something that might be useful and wholly unexpected. I've yet to see how profiling is going to help with this - so far it seems to be more about convincing cola addicts to drink even more cola / a different brand than they already do. Before you can accept that targeted advertising is *good*, you have to accept that advertising in general is good, or at least that it can be. As opposed to being, say, a continuous drain on spending from everyone involved without any real demonstrated benefit. Maybe targeting can fix that, but I'm not holding my breath - it's not even really in Madison Avenue's interest if it does.
Re:Targetted advertising is *good* (Score:1)
GPL extension (Offtopic) (Score:1)
This is off the subject, but when I read this I thought of one thing: having Linux Open Source is of course great, but when implanted into a device like the Tivo, there is not much hacking to be done on the kernel. Sure, you could take the code and make your own device, but who has the time? Not to mention the $$ it would take to mass market such a product.
Would it be reasonable to make an optional extention to the GPL requiring all devices running Linux (or any other GPL'd software) to include instructions on how to extract and modify the source? I'm assuming the kernel in the Tivo is just a binary, so it would be more of a matter of replacing what's there. Do all devices run on generic CMOS or DSP chips that use the same technique to modify the memory on them?
It seems that it would be easy to store the kernel where no one would be able to modify it, thus rendering the OS code useless. Just a thought. Flame as is appropriate.
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Re:Privacy (Score:1)
Hopefully my point is retained for those reading.
Re:Of course your Tivo is watching you. [OT] (Score:1)
Are you trying to suggest that the Republicans are any better than the Democrats? The government agencies that allegedly do the things you speak of are strongly supported by Republicans.
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Attention Deficit Disorder Sufferers and Tivo (Score:1)
It is well known fact that many TV watchers suffer from this disorder. As witnessed by the many remotes and other gadgets consumers buy to help them watch more than one thing at a time. I believe it is a Good Thing that Tivo cares about this group of people.
If only Emily Letella was still around for her commentary.
Why is this a bad thing? (Score:3)
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Re:Targetted advertising is *good* (Score:1)
Um.. there's a HUGE conflict (Score:2)
OK, they are playing nice with the studios... rather smart, actually...
We're able to do ad substitution, and some of our advertisers, especially car manufacturers, are interested in this.
Holy !@#! They're going to eat you alive and make you walk funny.... Tivo is going down...
So we are somewhat concerned about the ability of people to hack in and get access to the copyrighted material because obviously our partners in the media industry are very concerned about this.
So they're worried about Tivster. And well they should be. 3 things I need: >10Mb Internet connection, 100Mb Ethernet in my house LAN to the Tivo box, and the warez to play the philes (which you've dropped in my Tivo Linux box, how 'bout that.) Then, we will 0wn you. Write a napster/gnutella gateway through my home *nix box to the files on the Tivo to share with the world? No prob.
Should be fun to see what happens.
sigh.. (Score:1)
Why is it that people think they're actually learning while they're watching "educational" television programs? My roommate last year was addicted to his TV - watched the learning channel, history channel, cartoons, etc, constantly. He (basically) said that he was smart (scored a 5 on the AP US History test) because of that Wonderful invention called Television. In my opinion he just memorized a bunch of facts about history. Television is a passive input device, it provides little stimulation to build neural connections in your head. (There was a study where one group of rats lived in a super-stimulating environment, with wheels & other play structures, and another group got to watch the rats living in the stimulating environment from their barren cell. You get to guess which group had the same lifespan as the control group living in an entirely separate barren cell.) If people really are watching 30% more television with a Tivo like the article says (30%?? - short attention span, too many cartoons when I was young maybe), I cringe when I think of the social problems we'll be facing five years from now.
This is EXACTLY why I'm doing it myself. (Score:1)
Repeat after me: (Score:3)
If you don't want to share any information, it's simple: UNPLUG FROM THE NET. Obsessing about data sharing, especially when it's used for targeted and personalized content, is so 1995.
Compare: Cue Cat (Score:2)
This compares with the :cue:cat. Both are the product of marketing genius.
Manufacturers would pay good money to find out who, buying their products, also bought other products so they could target them better.
I'm sure we all knew at some point it would come to this .. all in the name of convenience ..
TiVo is a more difficult issue, but the :cue:cat issue would be easily solved by creating an open database -- something like FreeDB, of the free CDDB project did.
just a suggestion
of course the other option is to sample the shows you think you might like instead of some tv appliance telling you that you might like that show .. *shrug* :)
Is it privacy invasion or not (Score:1)
As one poster already said, at least I don't have to sit through maxi-pad commercials. What about people that surf around the commercials? Will it completely confuse the system?
Not a 'sealed' disk, but a 'locked' drive (Score:2)
Speculation has been that the primary purpose of this is to keep people from buying cheap TiVo units ($99 for a 14hour unit with rebates) and stripping them for parts.
The work-around to the locked drive involves moving the IDE connection from the TiVo to the PC with the drive powered up. Not for the faint of heart.
As to extracting the MPEG data, it's actively being worked on. To actually be useful, first we need some interface faster than the 115Kbps non-flow-control serial port on the TiVo.
Oh really??? (Score:2)
From the article:
I find the exact opposite to be true - I watch about 90% less television with my TiVo than before. I think there are two reasons for this:
1. I only watch what I've told TiVo to record for me, which amounts to about 3 hours per week. Right now, since everything is in reruns, TiVo's just storing up a bunch of stuff I'll probably never look at; the TV's not been on since last Tuesday or so. Since I don't spend time channel-surfing, I watch almost no TV at all now.
2. When I zip through commercials, I don't stop for anything - no ads at all if I can help it. This includes ads for the upcoming NEW SHOWS!!! Since I don't get seduced by the new shows, and I'm not really interested in watching more just to become a "better" source of demographic information (a privilege for which I pay, no less!) my viewing habits remain, at best, flat. They're losing money on me, and there's fuck-all they can do about it. That makes me very happy.
The moment that TiVo-inserted ads become non-skippable, or I start getting targeted-phone calls, or targeted-junk mail, or (yikes, they HAVE my email address) spam, they'll be getting the box back.
Re:Of course your Tivo is watching you. [OT] (Score:1)
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Tivo service clone? (Score:2)
It'd be best if you could put a NIC in the Tivo, of course...
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Tivo information collection is strictly local (Score:2)
Re:Targetted advertising is *good* (Score:2)
What about new products? Say you're interested in buying science fiction books? Targeted advertising will let you know whenever new sci-fi books come on the market.
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Re:GPL extension (Offtopic) (Score:2)
No. One of the reasons is the sheer volume of GPL'd software currently available that imposes no such restriction, which would make anything released under your modified GPL much less attractive.
bash is GPL'd and the source code is freely available, but I don't know C well enough to make any useful modifications. Maybe bash should come with C tutorials so I can learn how to modify it.
No, bash can be modified by anyone who knows what they're doing, and so can the TiVo. If you can't figure out how to modify the kernel that they gave you the source for, that's your own problem, not theirs. It certainly can be done.
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+1 funny? (Score:2)
HANDYHBT.... bravo!
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marketing mixup (Score:5)
Daughter watches smurfs.
Dad watches porn.
day #3 :
Dad sees "My Little Pony" commercials.
Daugher sees "I'm So Horny" commercials.
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If you don't want to share... (Score:4)
Sounds like you can decide whether or not to participate.
Re:sigh.. (Score:1)
Having said that, though, it is still better than 90% of the crap that is on the other channels.
In my opinion he just memorized a bunch of facts about history.
And what the fuck is wrong with that? This at least puts your roommate ahead of 90% of the clueless fucks out there. He should read a lot more so he will know when the TV documentaries are getting it wrong, but half a loaf is better than none.
I generally wear a metal collander on my head (Score:1)
Their newest scheme is a combination of 'web-bugs' & cell-phones. Whenever I see one of the government's special transparent 1x1 GIFs my brainwaves register it as a special pattern which persists for several days. The cellphone's transmitter and antenna then act as an extremely short-range EEG to count the number and codes of the 'web-bugs' I've seen in the past few days. They transmit this to Carnivore-bugged phone switches using audio steganography whenever I recieve a 'wrong number' call.
gdfghfdh
hgfj
+++ CARRIER DISCONNECTED +++
Re:Agreed. Nader is a borderline criminal. (Score:1)
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You can't take back your data when they fink... (Score:2)
Look, if you buy a Tivo, expect your viewing habits to be sold. Expect your personal data to be tied to them. The kind of highly-granular, personally-identifiable viewing data (down to what commercials are fast-forwarded) Tivo can collect is worth a hell of a lot more than the $10/month.
Of course, they'll generously guard your privacy now while building their installed-base (especially among tech-savvy, privacy-conscious early adopters), but once its popularity blooms beyond that market into the millions, expect an about face.
You may wail and moan and cancel your service at that point, but you'll never get the data you already gave them out of their systems, where it will be bought and sold and subpoenaed.
You will have no recourse.
-Isaac
Re:Agreed. Nader is a borderline criminal. (Score:1)
Certainly corporations have had a part in building this country, but they've shackled it as well.
Bah, nevermind, it was a troll. And I stand by my
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Re:Not a 'sealed' disk, but a 'locked' drive (Score:1)
Re:Of course your Tivo is watching you. [OT] (Score:2)
Aren't they always?
(Made fun of by a gay man with lesbian friends, some of whom work in inner city schools where the day-to-day language isn't BBC English and many of the folks are Islamic...)
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
Which is worse, Big Government or Big Business? (Score:1)
I like the days when there were lots of small businesses that you can patronise. A corner deli, a newstand, etc. Now the only thing left in my area is Wallmart's Supper store. The thing is so big you can't find anything. It wasn't bad when it was smaller, and you could get things quickly. But now its impossible to find what you want. After looking around, I'm not the only one that is annoyed with them.
I believe that business can control government more than government can control business. You could use Microsoft as an example, because they seem pretty big and strong enough to win appeals, and I doubt that they will be broken up.
You forget that Business can grow bigger than governments. They are not limited to national borders, they can go across the world, in a global economy. I'm not against free trade, but we need to still have respect for the employees all over the world. Get rid of the sweatshops, and then trade.
Government and Business both have the same goals, and that is power. The more power the better. The more Big Business gets power, the less rights you will have. The suing that goes on is the power of the business. Sure there are cases that the layman gets there reward (old lady burnt by McDonalds coffee, and not to mention the Tobacco thingy). But try to fight business and you will loose! (DeCSS, RIAA, Patents, and DMCA).
Sorry, but the attitude of let the companies reign and do what they want will bring havoc to the rest of the world. Companies thrive on greed, and it can affect us all. Unfortunately the only way to control them is via government. So it all comes back to government being a neccessary evil.
I'm not against Capitolism, we just happen to be all short sited, and make decissions base on short term goals. If the aim is for long term then the world will be a better place. I always come back to the notion that if someone works hard they should be able to get ahead. If a company becomes too big, then no matter how hard you work, you can not get ahead, unless you bow down to the corporation. Whats the difference of being a slave to the government or a slave to a business? They both control your ass.
Sorry for the rant, but I'm tired and I want to go to bed!
Steven Rostedt
Re:Simple. (Score:2)
Copying IP is *never* theft.
Re:Why is this a bad thing? (Score:1)
Just watch the log files (/var/log/...) if you want to know what it's doing.
I worry most about reality manipulation.... (Score:3)
He posited a very Net-centric society with most everyone running very heavy filters to extract the data that interested them. Gerrold was obviously worried about this; the protagonist wrote a virus that would simply mess with people's filters a little. It would start letting in a worldview that they wouldn't ordinarily subscribe to. It was designed to shake them up a little without being overtly destructive. It helped keep people from going completely insular and stale.
I can see a couple of strong parallels here, and I don't think this has crossed very many people's minds. We already know about the obvious abuses: if they really knew what people watched, it would be fairly easy to determine a good chunk of the potentially-rebellious population simply by accessing their viewing records. Folks who watch a lot of TV Nation and Discovery Channel are not likely to be nearly as malleable as the Millionaire crowd.
Right, you knew that. But I think there's a more subtle danger here. In essence, by targeting you with personalized ads and, presumably, actual programs, aren't they able to manipulate your worldview to an astonishing degree? Wouldn't they be able to sort of bury you into a feedback loop? IE, if you are paranoid, feed you programs to fuel your paranoia and extract more money from you for bomb shelter supplies?
I don't think this is possible, I think this is INEVITABLE. They're going to do whatever they can to extract as much money from you as possible. Telling you the truth is not on the agenda. If lying to you extracts more cash from you, that is the right thing to do from the perspective of the stockholders.
Personally, I do NOT NOT NOT like the fact that ANYONE can control what I see but me. I'm unwilling to surrender that much of my choice. Admittedly there is already a great deal of manipulation going on in the media (if you don't think so, go read some foreign newspapers -- you'll be AMAZED at what you don't hear about here.) But TiVO is going from the subtle and indirect to the obvious and blatant.
I worry, as did Gerrold, about the feedback loops in self-referential reinforcing programs and behavior. That way leads to madness -- literally. As a culture we are already nuts, bonkers, crazy as loons. Individual people I know are almost always quite sane and reasonable, but in a group we believe in Life as Seen On Television, generally don't question what's on the tube. We cherish and embrace simulated homicide as light entertainment before dinner, and pay no attention whatsoever to state-sanctioned executions or the fact that we have a higher percentage of our population in prison than any other First World country.
We're already nutty as fruitcakes, as a group. What are we going to do when they can control what we see directly? Do we go mad one by one instead?
Re:Targetted advertising is *good* (Score:1)
I am a professional researcher. I think I am competent enough to figure out what I want for myself.
Re:Is it any surprise? (Score:2)
Re:Ads (Score:1)
Now it seems the act of fast-forwarding or editing-out ads will become criminalized (re DeCSS), which remind me of Carl Sagan's "Contact" where one of the characters was a businessman who got shafted by the government for creating a smart chip that blocked advertising. Sagan's ghost must be saying "I told you so!"
Lots of annoying politically-correct bits but lots of juicy insights too. Highly recommended read. No, I didn't watch the movie. No, I haven't the slightest intention of doing so.
Re:Privacy (Score:1)
Clarification? (Score:2)
While the TiVo can and probably does monitor what you watch, claim I've seen is that this data is aggregated and never used on the individual level, nor sold to third parties. I personally see no problem in calculating an in-house version of the Nielson Ratings. In fact, I encourage it.
The 'targeted ads' bit is more than likely a reference to the TiVoMatic function, also known as TiVo Takes. This is used on a handful of networks right now as a way of scheduling programming on a 'See it. Want it. Get it.' basis. Basically, it's a hyperlinked embedded in an ad to let you schedule the program in the ad for later viewing. I personally want to see more of this, so ads have some use to me and so I don't have to click away from live tv in order to schedule a program.
Finally, for those concerned about the Suggestions being used by TiVo, you can put your black helicopter theories back in the Paranoia Bin. The processing for preferences is done on the box itself, as has been proven by hackers that can make the listing re-gen on demand. It would seem an awful waste to have these centrally processed anyway, since the CPU on a TiVO is mostly idle.
Re:Simple. (Score:1)
WebTV worse? Someone confirm this (Score:1)
As we all know, WebTV is partially owned by M$. I have yet to confirm this (mostly because I don't know anyone moronic enough to use WebTV), but about a year ago someone told me that WebTV dials up M$ in the wee hours of the morning and uploads a log of every show watched and every site surfed. Isn't this orders of magnitude worse than the seemingly passive methods Tivo is using?
Dracos
"Time flies when you're procrastinating."
Re:Privacy (Score:1)
Boom. You've just overpaid this "trusted friend" for your car.
Doncha think it's neat when your dentist says, "so, how's the bicycling..." Jeez, he really remembers you. What a guy... but he's simply written it all down from the last time. Think of it that way and suddenly there's this sleazy cynic with his hands in your mouth.
Brin, not Gerrold (Score:1)
David Brin wrote Earth, not David Gerrold.
Re:Private enterprise versus Government (Score:1)
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Re: (Score:1)
Re:sigh.. (Score:1)
It's not that the person who's memorized history facts only has half a loaf, but rather that their loaf of bread is only half baked. We all know how well half-baked technological items work, such as Pentium chips and Space Shuttles... I can see similar fuckups happening with the person who believes the incorrect/incomplete/inaccurate version of history applying his half-baked head to some important nation-wide social issue.
Re:No Need TiVo. (Score:1)
What? (Score:1)
According to these news stories everyone can know about anyone. But i have a question... Does it matter? How could this information be abused?!? If anything, i would rather see ads i am interested in rather than dish detergant ads.
[Slightly OT] Can You Get Gnutella to Watch Me? (Score:2)
To honestly allow the mp3-sharing servers to expand our listening, how about song recommendations based on "people who have this song often also have this other song". To go further towards Tivo, how about letting me set aside a gig for Gnutella to d/l songs to that it thinks I might like?
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You don't understand... (Score:4)
However, what we rail against is the potential for abuse. To generate targeted ads, there must be a database of your preferences. This information about you could be used against you, to harm your character or reputation, or as evidence against you in a criminal proceeding.
For example, tracking information indicating that you frequent gay/lesbian/bisexual sites could be used to unwillingly "out" you, and even to destroy your career. One of the most notable cases is that of Tim McVeigh--not the bomber, though they share names--who was outed to the military by one of AOL's "guides" who handed over information about McVeigh's interest in gay chatrooms.
Also, databases of consumer buying patterns have already been used against people in criminal cases. The example which comes to mind immediately is that of a small-town marijuana dealer unfortunate enough to use a store discount card at the supermarket--police subpoenad his shopping records, to ascertain whether he bought an unusually large number of plastic baggies or other "drug paraphernalia." Let's not forget that, while he was a criminal, the legalization of marijuana is favored by an extraordinarily large percentage of Americans, and that the potential for such databases to be exploited in investigations goes far beyond this.
Do you want your TiVo records to indicate that you watch a lot of softcore Cinemax porn when you're falsely accused of rape? Believe it or not, conservative juries can look down on even softcore legal stuff, and some judges will let it in. Or, what if you watch a lot of The Disney Channel and Nickelodeon and you're falsely accused of child molestation? Such "evidence" would *definitely* be used against you since a psychiatrist would be called to testify as to how well you fit the profile of a pedophile--watching excessive amounts of kids' shows is common pedophiliac behaviour.
Even worse, corporations have total control over this data--they can merge it into vast databases, covering every aspect of your life. That's what several corporations are aiming to do. What if this data is made available to other corporations for a small fee? Well, then a prospective employer could do a background check which includes your TV viewing habits and shopping habits, and screen you out because you watch too much Cinemax porn or too many mindless sitcoms, or because you buy too many OTC medicines and must be a health risk. Right now, privacy policies aren't really legally binding and can be changed without notice, so all this information could be merged into a seamless database without any legal recourse to stop it.
It's quite clear that the benefits of seeing ads I might be more inclined to click through are far surpassed by the risks. It's all in the name of making human beings into blathering, mindless consumers instead of citizens anyway--do I really care what ads they throw at me? Fuck no, I ignore them, like a good *individual* should. The less I give to corporations or support their domination of every media outlet, the better.
Re:Targetted advertising is *good* (Score:2)
-John
Re:You don't understand... (Score:4)
In other words, if your TiVo unit itself knows that you watch a lot of golf, and it recieves an ad-targeting rule from TiVo during its daily call that says essentially "if your viewer watches a lot of golf, buffer up some Maxfli ads that will be run for 5 minutes at 2:50AM on PAXSAT and insert them into the next 10 golf programs" - The key here is that *EVERY* tivo recieves the same ruleset and does something different with it depending on what you do with your TiVo.
To say that the TiVo data could possibly be used against an accused in a criminal case is true -- if the police come to your house, confiscate your TiVo, and find some way to extract the viewing data. It's no more incriminating than any magazines you leave lying around or the items currently in your browser history. Plus, like a browser history, you can reset the TiVo database any time you wish.
~GoRK
That's what I'd do... (Score:2)
Yes sir, if I were working on an Embedded set-top box, with say, network connectivity and all sorts of spiffy features and a hard drive and... oh... wait...
Re:Security through obscurity (Score:3)
Yes. Some people are working on adding an ethernet interface to the TiVo and some others are working on reverse engineering the internal data format of the TiVo's mediafs --
The real kicker is that if you want to do this, there is already tons and tons of digital VCR software for your computer that does TiVo-like things (recording your shows each time they air; downloading program-guide info, etc) and some of the software saves the video in a useful format (mpeg1 or mpeg2) that can be hardware compressed and decoded. Since most people have insanely large harddrives these days (20+ GB with most of it free) the tuner card/video encoder can be a lot less investment than a $399 TiVo and the $200 subscription.
If the TiVo people are as good as I think they probably are, the MPEG chips in the TiVo units probably have some sort of on-the-fly crypto scheme built into them to further protect the media data.
Bottom line is that hacking the mediafs to extract video data isn't really practical because there are better/faster/cheaper ways to pirate TV.
~GoRK
Re:Oh man... (Score:2)
TiVo, Replay, and all the other PTV software available for the PC are as close as you get to paying someone to allow you not to see ads. Besides, who do you think a company that you paid to ensure that you don't see ads has to pay compensation to? Yep. the advertisers. You might as well be buying the fucking products.
Also, yes, they are working on figuring out mediafs but not necessarily to 'rip video from the tivo.' more like
~GoRK
Re:You don't understand... (Score:2)
This counterpoint falls down in the case of the truly unique individual -- one whose viewing habits cannot be correlated with his/her demographic profile. However, I think that such isn't really that much of a problem: It isn't financially worthwhile for companies to sub-divide their users *too* much. Then they don't have enough viewers to show the ads to. It only makes sense to divide your userbase up so far.
For example, if the company sells ads based strictly on whether or not you watch porn. Your viewing profile consists strictly of "72% of material viewed was pornographic, 28% was not." Why waste space noting how much of that porn involved S&M/B&D/rape fantasies/whatever?
If it is meaningful to track down to that level of detail, then there will be a large enough userbase for you to use as a defense against such an attack.
Essentially, what it comes down to is that you, as an individual are meaningless to the company, and that is your defense against abuses. Well, that combined with privacy policies. The AOL staffer involved in the Tim McVeigh example probably just screwed up. I'd guess he/she was reprimanded for it... It doesn't make sense financially for companies to abuse your privacy like that... It's bad press and could cost them customers.
-JF
Video Privacy Protection Act of 1988 might apply (Score:3)
It's suprising how strong the protections are. A specific court order is required to disclose video rental data. A search warrant isn't sufficient; the renter has to have the opportunity to contest the request before the info is disclosed to law enforcement. This is much stronger than the requirements for phone records, and stronger even than the requirements for wiretaps.
Why is it so strong? It's called the "Bork Bill", because it was enacted after somebody got the video rental records of Judge Robert Bork (the Republican moralist and author of "Slouching to Gomorrah") and revealed that he has some unusual video watching interests.
Whether what Tvio does involves is covered is a nice legal question. The original law is narrow, but one can argue by analogy that a new technology performing a comparable function is covered.
Not so simple (Score:2)
You are then changing this implicit contract they had and stealing that time they spent.
_____
It's aggregate data... (Score:3)
TiVo does collect information regarding shows recorded, commercials fast-forwarded through, etc. but only at the aggregate level. They don't use anything lower than the zip code level.
I don't have a problem with this. It's the best money I've ever spent. I'd sooner give up the rest of my home theater components. Um, except the TV. I kinda need that with the TiVo.
World Nuts Daily (Score:3)
You'll find hundreds WND stories on Y2K and every single one of them utterly alarmist.
WND also ran banner ads on many of these stories, offering sets of videotapes on y2k preparation - including some really survivalist nonsense - for hundreds of dollars. The videotapes and other survivalist nonsense were produced by... you guessed it, WND.
--
Re:Targetted advertising is *good* (Score:2)
I'm sure that if you thought about it, you'd find something market that interests you that you don't know everything about.
--
Re:GPL extension (Offtopic) (Score:2)
It's so much easier to go to the TiVo website and download the code.
If you don't care about voiding your warranty, the instructions on how to remove the hard drive, mount it in another PC and modify the system are available.
Re:Is it any surprise? (Score:3)
First, what's probably going to happen is the Tivo service is going to reserve space on the tivo for these targeted ads. They are doing this in new models already. Second, Tivo doesn't upload personal info with you viewing habits. All they know is what was watched, not who watches it (yes, it would be easy to link it, but thier privacy policy, and representatives guarantee that they will not link said data if you don't let them, and you can even opt out of the aggregate info upload. Third, all information on what YOU watch on Tivo is stored locally. Not on a server. If the unit crashes, they can't help you. You get a new Tivo and start setting up recordings, giving thumbs up/down on shows like you did when you first got it.
So, I gather from what I DO know about Tivo, that what will happen is that the locally stored data will be used to record ads that match your viewing habits into the reserved space mentioned above. How you will be presented with these ads, I don't know, but the point is that all of the decisions on what you see are determined locally. Tivo doesn't know what Joe Tivo User watches. They do know that X people what dramas, Y people what sci-fi, and Z people watch both. That kind of data they know.
So I'm not concerned about Tivo specifically. But just wait until other companies get into the game. Microsoft is targeting the PVR market; how do you think they'll handle your privacy?
Here's what the Tivo REALLY does... The truth... (Score:5)
Three files are uploaded to TiVo daily: tivoLog.pub, tivoLog.prv, and a log for 'myworld', the program that runs the machine.
tivoLog.pub appears to contain info on internal errors that have occured, but is usually empty.
tivoLog.prv is the issue here, it contains a log of every program watched and every button pressed on the remote.
Now, looking at the dialup scripts (Yes! It's all scripted!) You can see how it RANDOMIZES the name of the file before uploading it. No identifying information at all is in the file itself, the serial number isn't there. The serial number is used as the filename for upload, after being randomized. It appears possible for TiVo to change a setting and have the serial as the file name not randomized, but this is not set. It seems to be for debug purposes.
Sheesh.
Now the kicker: why shouldn't they have this info? It says it's taken in the manual. It says so on the site. Call up customer service and ask, they won't deny that they get it. One thing they do claim is that it's totally anonymous (true) and if you still don't want it, you can tell them to turn it off and it's done (also true, there's a setting in the box for it).
One final word (to correct a bad assumption): The TiVo Suggestions are computed entirely on your personal TiVo. No TiVo servers are used to compile this info, none of your thumbs ratings for shows are sent back to TiVo for this purpose. It's all local.
From now, before you bash something, learn what's really happening. It's fine to argue in the abstract, but a computer is not abstract, it's a real physical device. It's simpler to actually hack the thing and find the real story.
---
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
They were using a video camera, zoomed up to his hands. That was why it failed when someone walked in the way, and why the conversation went: "It looks like he pressed "L".... "L" isn't even on that side of the keyboard!"
However, kudos for a Sneakers reference!! I wish they made more caper movies like that.
Rader
Re:Targetted advertising is *good* (Score:2)
We seem to have a difference of opinion here. You see ads as source of information. I see ads as nuisance payments for free/cheap TV. I don't care about ads relevant to my lifestyle -- I'm not going to buy a Dell even though I am interested in computers.
Wouldn't you rather have some banners advertising useful computer products that you'd actually be interesting in hearing of and learning more about?
No. To repeat, ads are not source of information. And, no, I am not afraid of missing out a device/service I might like just because I ignore ads.
And, honestly, why should I care that anyone else knows my television viewing habits?
Maybe you don't. This doesn't mean that other people are like you.
Some people don't need privacy. Some will actually go to great length to get rid of their own privacy (jennycam and similar). However, there are other people as well, who want their life to stay private. A one-size-fits-all approach is not a good one here.
TiVO is doing you a favor.
Thankyouverymuch. I'll pass on such favors.
they're trying to cater to each user individually.
That's fine. I don't object to them trying. However what I want is a checkbox/button/switch that says "To have your viewing habits analyzed and to receive targeted advertising, click this".
All I want is a choice.
Kaa
Proprietary data formats? For shame... (Score:2)
The fact is, any proprietary data format can and will be hacked, regardless of whether or not TiVo moves to stop it. My guess: it'll be cracked inside of two years, probably more like one. Is that good? Not particularly. But the situation is what it is.
If you want to stop copying, you use encryption. Strong encryption, not the puny stuff MPAA used in DVD players (and even that wasn't as bad as most geeks make it out to be; the only reason CSS was hacked in the first place was because Xing left its key out in a non-secure spot, which the hackers then found). Hardware-based encryption chips can be made quite cheaply (and alleviate speed issues), and it doesn't take much to burn the key into a secured ROM. Even better, use battery-backed RAM so the contents of the chip are lost if it's removed (i.e. for analysis). The batteries on SRAM can last for ages (I have examples upwards of eight years old with the original batteries still in place and chugging away) so the chances of the batteries running out in an active unit are basically nil, and you provide some way of restoring the key at the factory just in case of an accident (if the user has to send the unit in, then it can also be checked for signs of tampering).
Once your encryption is in place, all you have to do is use standard MPEG-2, and you're all set to go (hardware MPEG-2 en/decoders aren't that expensive either). You have data that can be made as safe as you want it (to protect against media lawsuits), and you still save a ton in research and development (since you don't have to develop a proprietary format and the hardware/software to run it).
----------
DMCA, Videotaping. (Score:2)
Now the crucial things to understand here are two. One, yes, that is well established fair use. Two, NO, it would not be legal under the DMCA. The DMCA attempts to circumvent fair use rights, by making it not the use which is illegal, but the act of bypassing any technological roadblock that's been thrown up to prevent the exercise of fair use rights. This is a direct result of the fact that rights belong to the general public, which is statistically ignorant and apathetic, while the privileges the DMCA seeks to exalt over our rights are cash cows for corporations with deep pockets and plenty of public officials already bought.
Do you think this is an outrage? Do you want to do something about it? [eff.org]
part of this is old news (Score:2)
That URL above is where slashdot posted that Tivo okayed hacking of there systems. We already new that. So they are tracking what you view. Slashdot is tracking all your comments, as well as your preferences. I mean don't you think that slashdot knows more about you then Tivo does? Does anyone else wonder if slashdot is targeting ads at them?
On a less parynoid note. This is not really anything new. Web site are doing this all over the place. Any data that they can get about you to figure out what you may or may not buy is used. Doubleclick does this just read there privacy statement. What is Tivo's privacy statement? Do they even have one? Maybe that is the question that you should be asking your self.
Personally, I think it would be better to just put a UPS on your VCR and go about things that way. Then you don't have these concerns, you don't get programs that you probably don't want. And guess what, it works!
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Re:Targetted advertising is *good* (Score:2)
Who said tampons and jobs are irrelevant? Lots of geeks need both...
sulli
Re:I worry most about reality manipulation.... (Score:3)
Earth is by David Brin [kithrup.com] , not Gerrold, and yes, it's an excellent book. A lot of the ideas in it were fleshed out into Brin's article and later book called The Transparent Society [wired.com].
I used to be a card-carrying cypherpunk, but The Transparent Society convinced me that the crypto will never work, and that privacy cannot continue to exist. And that that's really not as bad as it sounds.
Re:they have a pretty decent privacy policy (Score:2)
I agree, I actually buy stuff after seeing advertisements sometimes. Isn't what they are for?! I would appreciate advertisements that were "anonymously" directed towards me. That way I can cut the feminine hygiene commercials and ramp up the ads informing me of a new exhaust system for my car, or a bitchin' deal on a harddrive at my local computer store.
I would see that as an added value to watching TV because companies might actually advertise based on what I like, instead of just blindly flailing about with this general information about products normally only 10 percent of the 10 percent of people who are actually watching, may need.
Hm
Bork's viewing habits (Score:2)
Saying that Bork has "unusual video watching interests" does nothing but slander a man's name. While intelligent people often disagree with Bork's politics, I would hope that we're all mature enough to shy away from slander.
Re:OK, no serial number, but what about Caller ID? (Score:2)
The initial setup call the TiVo makes dials a toll-free number, from there it downloads a list of your local numbers based on the zip code you enter as part of the setup.
I'm not suggesting that TiVo is using the information available from your call to the toll-free line, but it is available to them.
Re:Targetted advertising is *good* (Score:2)
-John