Clemson University Bans Free Long Distance Sites 407
Jonathan the Nerd writes "An article in Clemson University's student newspaper, The Tiger, says that Dialpad.com and several other free long-distance sites have been blocked by Clemson's Division of Computing and Information Technology (DCIT). Chris Duckenfield, the vice provost for computing and information technology, said that the reason for blocking the sites was to determine the 'impact on our Internet bandwidth,' as well as to protect the finances of Clemson Telecommunications, which provides long-distance service to students. However, he acknowledged that the bandwidth usage would probably be negligible, which is making students wonder if the University is simply trying to maintain a monopoly on long-distance service. "
Re:Feasibility of blocking sites? (Score:1)
Re:constittionality. (Score:2)
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Re:Constitutionality? (Score:1)
The university is in the same area code (513) as Cincinnati, OH which is 20 - 30 minutes from here, but they use a different telephone company (GTE), and part of the town of oxford uses that same company, now I can frankly take a piss as far as it's long distance from here. Last month they made another 30 extensions become long distance.
I'm fairly sure Miami is making a nice cut on that forced long distance they got.
I use my cell phone with "free" long distance, which is registered back in cincinnati of course so I can actually make calls at a decent phone rate.
I'm surprised the university doesn't charge to call 1-800 numbers. Food service is just as proprietary. Internet access, if you want it live in a dorm, if you want adsl run a line from cincinnati cause your not getting it here at school nor are you getting cable.
The university makes sure that everyone except for the big frats pretty much gets stuck living in the dorm due to the costs of cable tv + internet access which is a crappy 56k modem. So instead we live in concrete boxes with desks that force us to hurt our eyes by sitting 3 inches from our monitors.
Universities are out for profit, nothing more. They don't give a damn about student rights or student housing conditions.
The last dorm they built here I think was 1969 or early 70s, they're doing a big remodelling job which involves the grand scheme of lets give them mobile furniture to simulate more space. I dunno bout you but I hate my roommate already and I really don't want a bunk bed so I can sleep underneath the *ucker.
Clemson is doing just what every university is doing, protecting their interests with Microsoft Style tactics, if we can't do it constitutionally well then we'll ignore their constitutional rights and do it anyways.
Notbob,
Ranting and raving all over slashdot again, there goes my karma
Clemson is a state college. (Score:3)
Clemson's "customers" are better known as "taxpayers". If they kids aren't paying taxes, then they're not working and their parents are paying their tuition -- and the parents are working, I'll bet. And taxes pay for a big, big chunk of what happens at a state school.
Very different rules apply to a public institution and a private business. A state college is a public trust, paid for by the public and managed for them by the state. A business is owned by and responsible to its shareholders alone, or to an even smaller group if it's privately held. Clemson is the government, and it has no damned business protecting its interests at the expense of the taxpayers' interests, because its only legitimate role is to act in the taxpayers' interests.
But I suspect that you merely guessed wrong about the ownership of Clemson, and the above is pretty much what you'd be saying if you knew it was a state school. Of course, you might also suggest that the state has no business running colleges, and as a matter of fact I might well agree. But that's another discussion entirely.
collect? (Score:2)
I actually don't recommend sprint in particular, and in fact, my stock portfolio would probably prefer it if you went with AT&T, so run along and do that instead.
Very confusing. Is it Java, or not? (Score:1)
I looked at their web site. It said that it's a Java program and you don't need to download or install anything else. From that description, one would ass/u/me that it's platform neutral. But then the system requirements say Windoze and also mention a couple of specific web browsers.
Bah. Sick Sun's legal department on 'em for abusing the Java trademark. ;-) Seriously, there's no denying that their mention of Java is deliberate attempt to mislead people.
---
Doing the right thing. (Score:1)
Thanks For The Example, Clemson University! (Score:5)
I wish to express my extreme gratitude for your efforts in proving why there needs to be an enforced separation between the lines that deliver internet service to the home and the actual service that is delivered over those lines.
As we watch the market for Internet access dwindle down to only a handful of viable ISPs, your intrusive behavior into the internet usage of your captive audience of students will be a model studied for years to come. Your excuses, your justifications, and your rationalizations for interfering with the free flow of information to those whose pipes you have the technological ability to control will reverberate loudly as large scale ISPs seek to find just how many of their competitor's web sites they can "devaluate" by banning them, slowing them, or just plain redirected them elsewhere...and the fact that you're suppressing a problem that has not occurred yet will be brought up many a time by those who *will* eventually bring the pain of regulation upon you.
As large ISPs make faustian pacts to achieve affordable access to DSL and Cable systems in the face of the end of AOL's Freed Access crusade(they'd rather merge than give tiny ISPs the chance to serve customers that are "rightfully theirs"), the small ISPs who lack conflicts of interest and seek more to provide internet access than restrict, track, and "captively synergize" it will be shaken out. And in their dying breaths, Mr. Duckenfield, your name will come up.
Rather than providing better service, with a flip of a firewall rule, you provided the only serice. Rather than meeting the needs of the students, you made the students meet the needs of you. Rather than trust your product, you chose to trust your monopoly powers.
You won't be alone. There will be scandals upon scandals--maybe AT&T will be found looking at the logs for *@Home to determine what online services MCI and Sprint customers use most. Perhaps we'll start to see exclusivity agreements, where companies will pay to have exclusive access to any customer's high speed networking line--wanted to go to Yahoo? Sorry, we don't serve that, but Lycos is just as good!
After all, when you don't need to worry about your customers having anywhere else to go, you can do whatever the hell you like. That's what you're doing with your students, and that's what more than a few big business, check your ethics at the door types are planning.
What saddens me, Mr. Duckenfield, is that there was supposed to be a higher standard that educational institutions were held to. Perhaps we should fear the next generation of business school students out of Clemson. A school that's working towards The Depublished Internet Regime(where content deemed dangerously competitive is instantly depublished without any feasable alternative access) is not a school whose graduates I suppose I can trust.
So! Have you started blocking 1-800-Collect yet? Oh wait, I suppose that might actually be illegal...
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com
Re:Constitutionality? (Score:2)
The softdrinks here are extremely watered down, when I buy a coke I expect it to be to coca cola's specifications on the percentage of water, carbonation, etc... not 99.98% water and
It would be nice if softdrink fountains were regulated to ensure we get what we pay for.
I have to opt for the $1 a piece 20oz bottles just so I can get something that tastes right.
pointless (Score:1)
Re:Constitutionality? (Score:2)
Pepsi for the next generation of brain dead idiots, from the same people who invented the crap they call rap.
Think it's all a conspiracy? Ebonics + Pepsi + Rap = The Henchman of the Evil Empire of Stupid People Who Really Need Jobs Badly even though American companies are at a shortfall for labor.
(Come on Someone moderate this Funny)
Re:Feasibility of blocking sites? (Score:1)
1) Set up an ftp server to use the http port
2) If they block actual ftp requests, then just send the files via http.
3) If this fails, then grab a cd burner and distribute your mp3s via cd. And charge a fee, of course
void recursion (void)
{
recursion();
}
while(1) printf ("infinite loop");
if (true) printf ("Stupid sig quote");
Re:This is _very_ constitutional. (Score:2)
Somehow I seriously doubt you have any idea of my reading habits, or any habits, whatsoever. (outside the
from this site [nara.gov]
Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech
Now, IANAL ANWTB, nor am I a sitting judge or have experience interpreting 200 year old declarations. However, as a limiting of speech issue, I think this could fit. It could be argued convincingly that the University is abridging this right by requiring students to pay for something that is already offered as a free service using one of the other services they have already purchased. By controlling access to free (beer) speech, it could be argued that they are limiting the *freedom* of speech.
Of course, if the students agreed (After thouroughly reading, I'm sure) to be regulated, (against their best interests) then they have no leg to stand on. And I doubt that Clemson has to follow the same rules as Congress, so the constitutionality of this action in this context is probably not an issue.
I just don't like seeing Internet Providers try to dictate what traffic their paying customers use (outside of spam, and it's ilk). I also don't like seeing captive audiences forced to use passe technology when new, cheaper, and generally better solutions exists, especially with such an obvious profit motive. THe school should be trying to provide the best situation for its students, not trying to squeeze them for every extra penny.
So while it may be Constitutional is this context, it definitely wouldn't be in another, and regardless of either context it can't be defended morally or ethically.
Re:heh... (Score:1)
hehe moderate this one up
Do I really just talk to my screen?
Yes, thanks to the principles of acoustiphotoelectromagnetic resonance. In other words, your monitor screen has certain acoustical properties that vary depending on the hue and intensity of the colors it displays. The variations in resonance in response to your voice is what makes FunPhone possible.
Re:So? (Score:1)
Also there aren't hardly any access #'s at Clemson, and it's kinda hard to convince your roomie to let you tie up the only phone line to your room so you can read slashdot.
Re:Bandwidth??? (Score:1)
X = Bandwidth now
Y = Bandwidth once they block dialpad
X - Y = Bandwidth due to dialpad
Yes, but when Y is much less than X then clearly the profit incentive for protecting their long distance service is a much more probable motive. WORST case low quality voice over IP is maximally 4kbps (thats BITS).
However, he acknowledged that the bandwidth usage
would probably be negligable [sic]
Its amazing i dont see more posts about this particular statement, only naive rants about constitutional law.
Re:Constitutionality? (Score:1)
Lucky bastard: here we can only buy Pepsi not Coke.
I can't simply believe this mentallity of restricting the competition. Ofcourse the companies want to restrict it so they are free to raise thier prices. The problem is that many people seem to have mistaken the concept of "free market" with the original concept "free competition". Just look at many of the comments to the DOJ v. Microsoft case: "Let the free market decide". It seems like those people can't understand that the first thing a company will do if it optains the opportunity is to quench all competion. In this case it is the universities and Coca Cola or Pepsi that do it together. This can only happen because the market is too "free", i.e. without some governmental interference that blocks these local monopolies.
Therefore: maximise the "free competition", not the "free market", which ultimately will lay all power into the hand of the coorporations.
This article is almost irelevant. (Score:1)
Please moderate +1 informative.
More like a Business now (Score:1)
It should be helping students not denying them services, which would save the students money.
Students have enough money problems as it is.
Surely any service which saves them money is less stressful for the students.
It also might be a contract issue. (Score:2)
Clemson (and likely every other Univ, and State and Local governments) has an exclusive contract for long-distance. Since dialpad.com and others essentially allow you to connect LD, there could be an issue that its a violation of the exclusive contract.
(side note - Back when I was at Clemson, 89-93, AT&T actually disabled their calling cards from the carrier that had the entire State's contract (including Universities) from time to time - apparently just to cause problems.)
I don't see the real problem here - bandwidth consumed by students is not negligible. I worked for the Univ of South Carolina's CSD, and student bandwith forced one upgrade while I was there.
But I'd be surprised if you don't start seeing more of these blockages, based on prior exclusive contracts - and more strongly worded contracts from now on, for the next few years, while voice/data begin to re-merge.
Addison
ahh, corporate greed again kicks in... (Score:1)
Lost pizza revenue! (Score:1)
Discussion on clem.hubcap (Score:2)
Clemson is not profitting and is not a monopoly (Score:2)
Second, Clemson does not have a monopoly, as far as ISP's go. I do not know if cable modem or DSL services are available in the Clemson area, but certainly other dialup ISP's are. So this is not a case of a monopoly leveraging its monopoly position in one market to gain an advantage in another (e.g. Microsoft allegedly using its monopoly is OS'es to gain an advantage in web browsers). You still have a choice for ISP. Now, if there was only one ISP (AOL-TW, anyone?) and they used their monopoly power to do this to leverage their own phone service, there would most definitely be cause for concern.
Third, you do not have a right to choice. We live in a free market, and you can only buy what people will sell you, not whatever you want.
huh? (Score:1)
Dial pad is not 'accessing the university network' But rather, individuals on that network are accessing it. What you are saying is that any company that provides a free service supported by advertising are 'hijacking' the networks of people that pay to use them.
Maybe you didn't read the article, The university is blocking access to Dialpad to it's users When I go to netscape.com, or slashdot.org, the bandwidth of My ISP is being used by them. If you don't transfer information, you aren't going to have a very interesting network. Anyone with a brain can see that they are not doing this because they are overloaded with bandwidth, but because they are worried that they'll loose money on long distance phone companies.
Amber Yuan (--ell7)
Yeah right (Score:1)
Re:Bandwidth??? (Score:1)
incompetent IT department? (Score:1)
surely they can measure the bandwidth usage as it happens rather than by blocking it and measuring the difference. Sounds to me like they are protecting the monopoly.
maybe they should block traffic to slashdot and see how much things improve!
Re:And if that doesn't work...! (Score:2)
>As for singling people out and posting their home addresses on the internet, perhaps it would be more prudent not to do so. When he starts >getting death threats and package bombs, how will that sit with your conscience?
I highly doubt someone willing to go to that extreme needed my help getting his address. I grabbed it right off of the www.clemson.edu server.
OT: Linux Service? (Score:2)
Re:Consider discount calling card services (Score:5)
Wirehead dun said:
First off, it may be trivial, but it's also quite illegal. You see, legally, telephone providers (including universities and payphone providers) cannot block access to 1-800 numbers for calling cards, 10-10-xxx numbers, etc. because of several laws (including the Telecommunications Act of 1996, mandating that phone companies open up local lines to competition) and because of telephone companies' special legal status of a common carrier.
This is not to say that phone companies don't do it illegally, though. Many university phone providers illegally block 1-800 access numbers and 10-10-xxx access numbers; COCOT pay phones (COCOTS are small, for-profit telephone companies outside the local monopolies that run pay phone services in which the person who allows the phone on his property gets a considerable cut--in fact, many of the same parties that run COCOT pay phones also run university phone systems) are downright infamous for blocking equal access, as are hotel telephone services; occasionally, one of the "big boy" telcos will do it as well (I've run into GTE pay phones at Bristol Motor Speedway that will not accept access to other phone companies--neither by calling card nor by 10-10-xxx number--though fortunately they've not figured out how to block personal 1-800 numbers yet :).
If your university/pay phone/etc. IS blocking 1-800 access numbers for collect calls or calling cards, and/or if it blocks 10-10-xxx phone numbers, give a call to your state's Public Utilities Commission (it is normally in the phone book in the information section or in the Blue Pages). Explain that the telco is blocking equal access by blocking 10-10-xxx or calling-card access (whichever applies)--as noted, this is flatly illegal, and it is one of the few things that PSCs and the FCC (which regulates the telephone industry) will clue-by-four telephone companies over (some COCOT operators have actually lost their "license" to operate a telephone company because they blocked equal access).
I suspect that most universities that use these COCOT-style services as "dorm telephone service" aren't aware of the laws regarding equal access, and think of it as a "business agreement" much like they'd see an exclusive contract with a soft-drink distributor. Alas, Coke and Pepsi distributors generally aren't subject to common-carrier laws like telcos are :)
You'll also want to contact the phone company you have calling-card access with (or whom you get 10-10-xxx access through) and notify them that your university (or COCOT phones) are blocking access to alternate providers. Many long-distance companies are all too happy to sic the FCC on folks who illegally block 1-800 calling-card access and/or 10-10-xxx access (AT&T among them).
More info than you ever cared to see about telcos, and the laws affecting them, here [mit.edu], and info specifically on equal access here [mit.edu] and h ere [mit.edu] and even a cute little Postscript complaint sticker [mit.edu] that gives info about the laws regarding equal access. :)
Re:Their network access is a PRIVILEGE not a RIGHT (Score:1)
At clemson they are paying a whopping $30,000+ a year for their Internet access. And then they have to pay for phone calls home now too. Internet access is a privlege, but if Clemson is going to limit this, where does it stop?
Jordan
have you any sense of proportion? (Score:1)
No, they don't. Not without good reason, and banning free long distance calling so you have a monopoly is not a good reason.
You have 5,000 ports on a network, with lots of bandwidth (I think we have a couple T3's, 2 T1's, and a seperate OC3 to another school), but if everyone starts pushing a gig an hour, that bandwidth is going to be gone in no time.
Again, do you have any sense of proportion? I don't know what kind of compression this site was using, but Roger Wilco uses about 500k an hour for a two person conversation, and its meant to be used while playing games over a modem. In many cases, long distance calling would take up less bandwitdh than ordinary browsing.
University Monopoles(sic) (Score:1)
Way around everything.. (Score:1)
Re:No, you should not do this, and here's why!!! (Score:1)
We shouldn't spam anyone. On the other hand, Clemson is a public university, so a lot more people than just the students have a stake in what Clemson does.
Does this open Clemson to lawsuits? (Score:1)
Does this make any sense to someone with legal training? Does Clemson become responsible for other content that isn't blocked once they are no longer a common carrier? Does that affect sites that block Napster? (I'm not saying that banning MP3s would break this, that's a policy issue. They could even say "Don't do that" and it wouldn't break the status of common carrier in my mind)
Usage (Score:2)
if the issue is bandwidth usage at the university internet gateway, then the university should take measures to regulate it's use, not by blocking certain destinations, but by either capping the bandiwdth, or having some sort of bandwidth-usage regulation, regardless of content.
Re:Constitutionality? (Score:1)
Re:Constitutionality? (Score:2)
What they are doing amounts to censorship. "You cannot go to this website because we offer a competing service." This is wrong and should not be tolerated.
Re:Constitutionality? (Score:2)
Rants and Facts about DCIT && Clemson (Score:5)
As a former student of Clemson, I'd like to share a few unhappy facts about the university's allocation of resources.
Fact #1: DCIT is the Micro$oft of Clemson.
They have traditionally been so clueless that the bigger colleges formed their own computing support infrastructures. A good example is the College of Engineering and Science [clemson.edu]. They have their own support infrastructure known as Engineering Computer Operations. They have all their own routers, computers, etc... All because DCIT couldn't deliver on competence and facilities in the past. To be fair, DCIT has improved service over the years-Cisco everywhere, for example. Campus-to-campus connections are now nice and fast.
Fact #2: Clemson's administration == clueless and deaf
It is the administration and leadership (Duckenfield included) that live life without a clue.
Just some background, and information, so that everyone has a little history. I arrived at clemson in 92 as an engineering major. I discovered these cool Sun workstations on a network NOT managed by DCIT that I could use to do gopher, and even some web browsing.
I think that sometimes, you could go to a DCIT lab, and the dot matrix printers there might work.
In 97 or so, they started introducing "resnet", which was ethernet in the dorms. It was only available in the two most expensive dorms (20-40% > other dorms), and cost $40/semester. The service was lousy but hey, it was a start. In 98, DCIT completed wiring the other dorms on campus, and elimintated the $40 setup fee. Suddenly there were around 5000-6000 new nodes on the campus network, full-time, surfing, ftp'ing mp3's, etc.
Clemson only had three T1's at that point. You do the math.
You were lucky to get 800 *bytes per second* between 7am-3am. Imagine downloading Solaris patch clusters with that handicap.
Also in early 98, DCIT proposed (and the administration approved) a mandatory $50 "technology fee," to be paid yearly by all students in the interest of improving campus computing resources. Multiply that by 17000 students... $850000/year income from this alone!
Sounds like a great qualifier for funding more bandwidth, right? Wrong.
Everyone from the students to the deans fought tooth and nail to have the pipe upgraded. And in TWO YEARS (think internet time...) it never happened. "Not enough funds." (in the background, CHA-CHING CHA-CHING $850000/year).
Many resnet users switched to faster 33.6k and 56k modems, using local ISP's, just to get better performance than on-campus ethernet.
When I left in may.99, they still only had three T1's. I understand they upgraded recently, not sure to what since I'm not there any more. In the meantime, DCIT has been blissfully upgrading all lab PC's every 6 months. I guess we know where the $850000 goes. Terrible management of resources!
Well I guess I'll end my rant. I'd go ahead and post about Clemson putting the firewall in between the dorms and the internet backwards (protecting the internet from the dorms!) and required all off-campus traffic to be authenticated agains their NDS tree--but I'm sure someone else will do it. If there's enough demand and I don't see it appear I'll post it later.
Thanks,
DragonWyatt
Re:States' Rights: The 10th Amendment (Score:2)
Re:This is _very_ constitutional. (Score:2)
That's like saying "We will no longer allow people to bath in the river that runs through campus, you must now all pay to use the community showers, thank you." If anyone isn't outraged by this, I just don't see your position.
And I don't see why you need the redundancy of a T3 and $.11/min phone service. One of those makes the other a raw deal.
Re:incompetent IT department? (Score:2)
Students need to take a stand. Demonstrate, make yourselves heard. It's a formative experience. I'm of the opinion that the ability of the students to stand up for themselves and what they believe in is a good measure of the quality of the university.
So where does it stop, Mr. Duckenfield? (Score:5)
As I'm also sure you're aware, so do alot of other places on the Internet.
Now, however much students spend on average on phone service, I *promise* you it pales to the sheer amount of cash that flows through your campus bookstore. I also promise you that there are more than a few nervous staff members who are hearing the ads proclaiming lower prices, better service, and higher availability.
Guess who they're coming to, Mr. Duckenfield?
As long as you're blocking sites, you might as well eliminate bigwords.com, ecampus.com, varsitybooks.com, and (horrors!) textbooks.com. Maybe even throw Amazon into the fray--why not? It's your net to do with as you see fit, right?
Oh. I forgot. Your department doesn't sell books. Your school does, but your personal budget doesn't depend on the sale of those books. So who cares if some other department loses out...but as soon as some as of yet non-serious threat to your income opens up, that's something completely different, I suppose?
Since you're a college, you likely have a contract with Coca Cola. Your school saves alot of money by having that contract, which specifically prohibits Pepsi products on campus. I'd say a Pepsi web page is a Pepsi product, no? Poof, off they go. Wouldn't want to lose that contract.
You see, Mr. Duckenfield, there's a concept out there called Content Neutrality. As long as you don't modify or inhibit the data stream along the lines of *what*'s going over them, you're free to forward whatever is handed to you.
However, once you claim the role of gatekeeper, particularly gatekeeper to your captive fiefdom(where apparently people call collect to save money!), you claim the ability, the responsibility, and the liability to evaluate and handle any traffic which flows over those lines.
Better catalog every service your school provides, because apparently you can't handle the competition--not even a little.
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com
P.S. Yes, this is my second post on the topic. So sue me
Re:dialpad.. (Score:2)
If you load the page under Linux it says something like "Could not find a binary for type Linux ELF 2.2.xx"
There's some sort of javascript doing "sanity" checks. Anyone get around that problem?
Joseph Elwell.
I wouldn't be surprised.. (Score:2)
In related news...
I just found out that I can get ADSL at home. Currently I'm getting about 26Kbps out of my 56K modem due to being so far from the CO, but it seems I'm just under the 17,500 feet limit for ADSL, and the local telco has just started offering the service. 1.5M max/384K guaranteed down and 128K up for $39.95/mo, plus $10/mo for my ISP. Not bad.
Re:Feasibility of blocking sites? (Score:2)
Re:Schools wanting monopolies? Nah! (Score:3)
In my college and in others, freshmen and sophomore were not allowed to live off campus. No good reason except the campus made money. A friend of mine was forced to pay for food she did not eat and a room she did not sleep in for one and a half years. She was living off campus with her boyfriend after the first semester. She tried to get out of it, but to no avail. There is no excuse for this, but colleges do this all the time. I don't think the benefits outweighed the consequences.
The freshmen dorms were especially hell holes. Noise, filth, and abuse filled the guy's dorm. The girls dorm was only slightly better. There was no choice for freshmen but to live there.
I was married and so they had to let me live in an apartment. When i lived in the on campus apartment they routinely tried to cut essential services during break even though i rented month to month and not by the semester. One year this nearly meant going without long distance service for december. I threatend to go to the local news and tell them that they were not going to let me call mom on christmas and that got their attention enough to relent and not cut phone service. The did cut the heat during thanksgiving break. They also did not put smoke alarms in the apartment until i called the fire marshall after a grease fire in mine. Oh, that is when i learned you can't dial 911 from on campus. I asked them to do something and they refused until i went crying to the fire marshall. Colleges are corporations and will behave as egregiously as they can get away with. My school was run by Franciscan Friars and yet they put profit over student well being and safety. Last i checked you still could not dial 911 from there.
This is one more example of a college putting profit ahead of all else. I hope someone will do something to stop them.
Breaking news: (Score:2)
developing...
Re:We have a word for this: (Score:2)
You mean like Internet access? For a fee, right?
People here seem to believe that the world owes them something -- that unlimited internet access is a basic right, which should be provided free to everyone by "them."
I've seen this lament a number of times, and it's crap. This isn't about unlimited Internet access, it's not even about the bandwidth load. Simple reloading this
The simple fact is that the University is trying to snuff a service that acts in an extremely competitive way (free long distance) with a service that the University gets paid a lot of money to offer through an outside company.
I you feel Universities have a greater olbigation to their business partners than their students (who also pay money to attend school), then by all means support the university in their censorship. Help set precedents that limit consumber choice to whatever the hell they are told to choose. Break the people's will so when their ISP says "No you can't visit that site, it's a competitor of ours, Read clause #12563b of your Contract and bend over", it's taken as a matter of course.
Clemson Beurocracy = Illuminadi (Score:4)
WHY THEY SHUT IT DOWN
Many of you who do not live at Clemson may not know this, but the University has a monopoly on the long distance services here. They run businesses such as Tiger Tel whose profits pay for different campus services. This is the single reason for their shutting Dialpad down. There have been other excuses produced by the University such as "evaluating the legal and academic nature of the site." First of all, there is NO clause in the terms of use for the Clemson network that call for "strictly acedemic use," despite the fact that Dialpad is indeed used for academic purposes. Secondly, there is NO legal question concerning Dialpad. The Clemson network has made no effort to block illegal sites in the past, illegal pornography, illegal pirating, etc. And of course, Dialpad doesn't even begin to rival these sites in its illicit nature.
THEY DON'T WANT US TO KNOW
Not only has Clemson made a rather socialist move by blocking Dialpad to maintain their monopoly over long distance service, they also betrayed the trust of their student body. The same Friday that Dialpad access was terminated, an email went out to all the employees of the computer help desk that read:
"Access to the dialpad.com website has been blocked until the university can access the situation. We are studying the impact of Dialpad's exploding use on our Internet connection. The Internet connection exists for academic use."
That's all it said. That's all anyone at the University knew for the longest time. And of course the bandwidth problem was quoted as "negligible" in THE TIGER. So what was going on? Many students here would call DCIT, (Department of Communications and Information Technology, here at Clemson) and ask what was going on. I myself called on multiple occasions. Each time I was given a different reason. At first it was that they were "assessing the impact on the university," then it was "it's affecting the bandwidth," then "it's only for academic use." Finally, I was referred to the curator of the Help Desk. I wanted to know who had issued the decision to block Dialpad. She absolutely refused to tell me, citing that she was "not allowed to distribute that information."--I told her it sounded like we were being blocked by the illuminadi. This does not sound like a University that supports the will of its students, nor is it conducive to good student relations. The computer department made no effort to inform students of their decision, and conversely tried to cover it up.
WHAT STUDENTS CAN DO ABOUT IT
Whereas DCIT may do a good job of keeping secrets, they do a sorry job of blocking Dialpad. There is a simple click and type process that any student at Clemson can use to get Dialpad back on their browsers as if it had never been blocked. Please visit DownWithDCIT [xoom.com] for simple and very detailed instructions on how to do this. Also, take other's advice and mail the President of the University at:
President JAMES F. BARKER,
210 Highland Drive
Clemson, SC 29631
Telephone: (864) 654-6066
Schools wanting monopolies? Nah! (Score:3)
Universities already have forced monopolies in on-campus housing and on-campus food service in most places (although admittedly this isn't universal), and many universities seem to be pretty intent on keeping them.
Monopolies are great business for the institutions that have them, and I'm sure that Clemson (and most other colleges) would love to keep theirs. In this case, online long-distance probably isn't widely used yet, but if they quash it now while there aren't many people to complain, then it'll be easier than trying to stop everyone from using it a few years from now.
Re:And if that doesn't work...! (Score:2)
By all means, call him all you want at the office, but I will continue to assert that he deserves a modicum of privacy in his own home.
Yes, you can get his number out of the phonebook. Heck, you can even get it [switchboard.com] online. But should the response be "Here's his number; go hammer him!"? Must you employ massive retaliation where other methods have not yet been used and where there's no reason to suspect they won't be effective?
This argument has taken me where I didn't plan to venture, I must admit, since I'm usually the asshole who's fomenting the masses and preaching civil disobedience. By all means, use the system (and subvert the dominant paradigm), but do it responsibly where appropriate (and this is such an instance).
If you want to get back at a University policy, you don't verbally assault its president. You simply aim the media's spotlight at the policy. Just look at the infamous water buffalo affair at UPenn, for example -- colleges and universities simply cannot withstand proper scrutiny. Go about it that way -- if you have to hammer someone, let it be Rupert Murdoch and his ilk.
Re:Rants and Facts about DCIT && Clemson (Score:2)
Bandwidth??? (Score:2)
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Consider discount calling card services (Score:2)
Re:And if that doesn't work...! (Score:2)
Yes, his address is listed on the clemson server and it's even listed in the phone book, and even if it weren't either of those two things, someone with enough dedication could dig it up somehow. But still, you probably shouldn't make it so easy for the undedicated but still obnoxious persons to get ahold of it (especially his home phone number). The risk is largely ephemeral, however, and you can consider my post as mostly humorous (as it was intended).
No, you should not do this, and here's why!!! (Score:5)
Sheesh I can't believe it. What are we turning into, a mob? Think logically, folks. You don't go to the university. You have no connection to it. Furthermore, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what the IT department has done (read my other post: http://slashdot.org/comme nts.pl?sid=00/01/29/1837209&cid=78 [slashdot.org]). And yet someone says, "Hey, let's spam the President of the school" (albeit through snail mail) and everyone jumps aboard, moderating his points up to 5?!!
This is ridiculous. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
Re:Constitutionality? (Score:2)
Re:Clemson is not profitting and is not a monopoly (Score:2)
Make up your mind, are they are not-for-profit, or are they a business? Your "you do not have a right to choice" rhetoric means squat if Clemson receives public money or the special tax status that non-profits usually recieve. Whose interests is it suppost to be serving, the students or its owners? Does Clemson even have owners?
Re:Feasibility of blocking sites? (Score:2)
Killing Napster right now was only easy because of the way it's designed. With Open Source napster servers already being developed, you'll no longer be able to just block connections to *.napster.com, and since they're open source they can be configured to use any port.
Re:Constitutionality? (Score:3)
I doubt it - if the university chooses to provide one service (web access) but not another (free long-distance phones) you can't really scream that you are being denied a basic right - particularly as free long-distance phones are uncommon in the normal setup.
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Write the president of Clemson U. (Score:4)
President JAMES F. BARKER,
210 Highland Drive
Clemson, SC 29631
Telephone: (864) 654-6066
FCC Equal Access Order (Score:2)
Re:Constitutionality? (Score:2)
As for Coke/Pepsi, that's even more ridiculous. Do you really expect a University to go out and get vending machines from *every* company? It's not like they're saying "Hey, you can't have Mountain Dew on campus", it's just that they won't sell it to you. It's a manageability issue more than anything else.
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"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
We have a word for this: (Score:2)
Plain and simple. This should not be tolerated and everyone at clemson should boycott using long distance services from their university. Unless of course they wish to simply be frisked and robbed by their university.
-[ World domination - rains.net ]-
Re:Schools wanting monopolies? Nah! (Score:2)
Their network access is a PRIVILEGE not a RIGHT (Score:2)
Every student at every major university agrees to a set of guidelines for their network access. One of these guidelines is always that the university reserves the right to revoke access at any time for any reason...
This is their private network that they are granting these students free access to. If they don't want them using it for some purpose that is their right. If the students don't like it they can go pay for a T1 from another provider
Josh
Re:DO NOT CLICK. (Score:2)
Put the flamethrower down!
Re:Bandwidth??? (Score:2)
Y = Bandwidth once they block dialpad
where X and Y both vary wildly and unprecictably
X - Y = Bandwidth due to dialpad :+)
go for it - If I get to pick the points on the graph where you measure x and y, I can prove Dialpad uses negative bandwidth
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not too suprising...... (Score:5)
Seriously, though, this didn't suprise me a whole lot. DCIT is NOT a very userfriendly organization.... They don't allow mp3's on the network, they put in user authorization and track where students surf, they have frequent network downtime, and worst of all they don't listen to the students when we complain about the poor service. I just hope someone there visits slashdot to see the wonderful reputation Clemson is getting because of them....
I don't even use CU's long distance thing, i just call collect anyway.
Re:not too suprising...... (Score:2)
"s/DCIT/EDS" and "s/students/employees" and then a "s/Clemson/GM" Yup....sounds like General Motors alright...
DCIT isn't by chance contracted out to EDS is it?
Its a CONSPIRACY!!!! I'M TELLING YOU!!!!
:)
Feasibility of blocking sites? (Score:2)
Something I found in the fine print on funphone (Score:2)
Re:Schools wanting monopolies? Nah! (Score:4)
These are so much monopolies as they are licenses. In my neck of the woods, Mariot pays for the rights to and provides the food service for on-campus. This benefits of a system like this typically outweigh any concequences. It is really done because for a simple reason: limited resources. You can't have a 25 McDonalds on Campus--it'd take up too much space and would be obtrusive. Plus real estate cost money, and a lot of it.
The issue of phone service is entirely different. We are talking about unobstrusive resources (bandwidth is cheap! REALLY CHEAP!) that are not defined or finite. If the students are using too much bandwidth, then get more bandwidth. Simple problem with a simple solution. If this means that they have to charge a slight 'access fee' (I'm thinking like $5 a student per quarter) for campus internet then so be it. $5 x 5000 (students) / 3 (months in a quarter) = > $8000 per month to by more bandwidth. That will get you roughly 5-10 more T1's, or perhaps get you to the budget for a T3, etc.
So what we have here is a case of an easy to finance, inexpensive service that is attractive and in demand by students vs. a campus-run probably profitable service that may suffer. It is not in the student's best interest to block the service and such restrictions should be eliminted.
I haven't heard of any other campuses that don't have their own long distance service banning such services, but perhaps I just haven't hear of them.
-K
Re:dialpad.. (Score:2)
Yeh, whatever (Score:2)
I'm glad I'm not going to that collage
I think this really shows the inherent danger in companies getting to much control of the bandwidth. If this collage can cut people off from sites that compete with its overpriced services, what's to stop AOL/Time Warner from doing the same thing? Supposedly they've block the AOLwatch newsletter because it might have been 'Spam' If all they have to do is make up a bullshit technical excuse to cut access to something, we have a real problem.
I hope the students of this university do something to stop it, or that the administration realizes what they are doing is wrong.
Amber Yuan (--ell7)
Re:Thanks For The Example, Clemson University! (Score:2)
My wife and I stayed in a hotel some 10+ years ago in downtown Dallas (well, in Reunion Plaza anyway).
It's phone-usage card said that 1-800 calls were free, except those to long-distance services.
It was obvious to me then what a ludicruous scam this was, so I called the front desk, asked to speak to management, and explained in no uncertain terms that we were not to be charged for any 1-800 calls -- no singling out, e.g. of numbers that happen to "compete" with their services -- unless they would accept that we'd leave the hotel immediately and never do business with that chain again.
Though they agreed to this after some discussion, the charges (to our Sprint number, I believe) showed up on the bill anyway.
Another phone call or two was all it took to have those charges removed, but I doubt we'll ever stay in that hotel again. (Since I was born in Dallas, and have relatives and family friends there, that represents a non-zero loss of revenue for that hotel.)
Somewhere there are schools of business management that are teaching this kind of garbage, and they must be stopped.
IMO the most effective way to stop them is to expose the people who perpetrate this nonsense, and use your power to make it difficult for them to exercise their power ever again.
E.g. make an example out of people like this Mr. Duckenfield character. Refuse to hire them if you're in upper management of any firm doing IT-related business. Refuse to work for any firm that employs him in any role with similar powers. For the time being, make it clear to Clemson that if he's employed there beyond, say, the end of next week, you won't attend that school or work for it ever again.
Nothing personal, of course -- all you're doing here is exercising your rights to block access by Mr. Duckenfield to the communications facilities you use to reach your fellow students, employees, customers, friends, and family.
Maybe if this happened, and became more effective, throughout the industry, the message would go out among all those MBAs (and, yes, my wife's a Stanford MBA, but, no, this kind of lunacy would never occur to her) that to even contemplate such insidious micromanaging of peoples' lives for reasons such as increasing profits had better offer huge payoffs, because it risks one's entire career in IT and related management fields.
If you don't fight it now, it'll only get far worse, more difficult to detect, and harder to fight as more and more of the populace is convinced its "normal". (As many others have already pointed out in their own words.)
Speaking from a legal perspective, though, it seems to me this should be actionable as fraud or breach of contract, on the basis that the implication of a phrase such as "Internet access" or "Web access" includes no such micromanagement, except in cases required by law (e.g. restricting access to pr0n, sites violating the law, etc.).
But, of course, the USA gave up the notion of holding lawyers and police to such a modest standard long ago, culminating in the "not guilty" finding against Clinton by the Senate, so there's little likelihood of making inroads using this argument.
So, for now, rather than making the rational case that this sort of behavior might constitute actionable fraud, one must consider resorting to simpler and more direct remedies: "you promise me access to the Internet, then block me from calling my grandma using its facilities so you can earn more $$, fine, I'll make sure you pay for that for years to come".
Sad that the situation seems to require such behavior, but that's the inevitable result of systematically dispensing with the rule of law to obtain short-term conveniences: revenge becomes more prominent as an enforcer of the peoples' morality.
(Not that I'm advocating revenge per se, just a very mild form of it, just as if a particular brand of router often gave you trouble and the manufacturer laughed in your face when you complained, you'd avoid that brand for years to come, even if the manufacturer had promised it was fixed after realizing it needed your business afte r all.)
Re:Consider discount calling card services (Score:2)
For what? Sex? If my university (UC Santa Cruz) charged that much for long distance, there'd be riots. Our phone network doesn't allow for any 10-10-xxx numbers, but calling cards are ok, but most students use the university long distance, because it's competitive (we have a "deal" with MCI, but the rates aren't bad).
The Good Reverend
And here's why you're wrong (Score:2)
There is a difference between what is legal/constitutional and what is right. Clemson may be legally allowed to do what they're doing, but that does not mean it isn't wrong.
And it doesn't mean that people shouldn't write to express their outrage. Especially since, IIRC, Clemson is a state school, and as such taxpayers of that state have an interest in what's happening. People who are prospective students, or parents of prospective students, should also write. Maybe Clemson will realize that this could alienate future students enough to have them choose another school. Clemson may not have any moral sense of what's right, but if they see their bottom line threatened I bet they'll come around.
One other point: writing reasonable letters to someone in power to explain why their positions (or positions of their subordinates) are wrong, and why people are upset about it, is not spamming. It is a perfectly legitimate form of communication (while unsolicited, it isn't commercial, nor does it cost the President anything - all he has to do is throw it out if he doesn't want to read it. If it were email, you might have an argument for usage of his mail server resources, etc, but with snail mail there is no cost to him). And I'm sure Clemson would like to know if they have a PR nightmare on their hands.
Re:Constitutionality? (Score:2)
Universities are big business nowadays. I'm glad that at least one company has been able to provide competing phone service here at NCSU, but by and large we don't have that many choices, AT&T enjoys a virtual monopoly here, and I'd hate to see our few bad choices get limited even further.
...and I'll trade campuses with you. My university switched to Pepsi, and I can't stand it. However, getting Coke from off campus is cheaper than buying Pepsi on campus, and of course Coke is far superior...
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11].
Re:Bandwidth??? (Score:2)
X = Bandwidth now
Y = Bandwidth once they block dialpad
X - Y = Bandwidth due to dialpad
Pretty simplistic, but a lot of decisions are based on numbers determined by methods faultier than these.
Re:Employees vs Students (Score:2)
Slightly OT, but... (Score:2)
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Re:Constitutionality? (Score:2)
Amber Yuan (--ell7)
Re:Consider discount calling card services (Score:2)
This is _very_ constitutional. (Score:3)
And if that doesn't work...! (Score:2)
Corner Bagel Shop
405 College Ave, Clemson, SC 29631-1421
Phone: (864)654-0045
Or write his local grocer:
Plez U Food Store
233 Pendleton Rd, Clemson, SC 29631-2907
(864) 654-0045
Or write his local gas station:
Cartee's Shell
219 Pendleton Rd, Clemson, SC 29631-2212
(863) 654-5334
This issue is just too important not to be truly thorough!
As for singling people out and posting their home addresses on the internet, perhaps it would be more prudent not to do so. When he starts getting death threats and package bombs, how will that sit with your conscience?
heh... (Score:5)
Re:The trust model (Score:3)
Dialpad is accessing the university network on the request of a member of that university. So they aren't freeloading bandwidth any more than a web server that a student accesses. Bytes are bytes.
Re:Feasibility of blocking sites? (Score:2)
Dormitories are not the real world. (Score:2)
I know, I am asking to be flamed here, but I think that Clemson, or any university, has perfectly legitimate rights in dictating proper and improper uses of the university network. Even to the extent that this means giving them the tools to wield monopolistic powers. After all, they own the cables, they pay the carriers, they staff the support centers, and so on.
I think it is easy to forget that students living in dormitories effectively lose certain rights, that people living in the real world keep; but they get certain privileges that us outworlders don't have. I don't have to show an ID to get into my apartment, nor am I prevented from smoking or drinking, nor am I prevented from having my girlfriend over. On the other hand, I don't have a guaranteed place to live, I don't have a cafeteria in my basement, and I don't have free or nearly-free high-bandwidth internet access. It is perfectly consistent for limitations to be placed on access through the university network.
This is probably a bad analogy, but here goes anyway: The university library contains a "special collections" department, that is only open during the day, where rare and fragile books are kept. They are open to the university population, but under specific use and access guidelines. Is this censorship because it prevents, for example, a student from picking up a draft copy of "Ulysses", walking out with it and making paper airplanes?
Unless Clemson advertised "unrestricted internet use" in brochures for prospective students, or included such language in their residency-hall agreements, they are completely within their rights. Perhaps they are acting foolishly (which is probably true), but not badly.
Academic Uses... (Score:2)
In this case, Dialpad does have clear academic uses, and less questionable ones than playboy.com. In addition, many university students live on campus, and getting internet access elsewhere is out of the question. While the University has the right to screen out whatever it wants, to limit access to any site that is not patently illegal is a terrible violation of the spirit of freedom that has made most university campuses such an exciting place to live. (Though personally, I don't think that universities should be in the business of censorship at all.)
You have to give them credit though, because at least they admit that they're trying to protect their own telecommunications funding. Still, they'd probably save the students a lot of money by charging them the extra money needed for the switchboard, the campus locator, and the emergency phones, and letting them use a more cost-efficient method of communication.
Just because it's legal, doesn't make it right.
Re:incompetent IT department? (Score:3)
The sad part about this is that the students are paying to use that bandwidth and internet connection, and they are being told how to use it. Worse yet, most campus facilities don't offer alternatives like DSL or cable modems.
It always enraged me when I had to pay a $100 "lab fee" per computer science course, even though I never set foot in the computing center at school. In fact, I didn't even tie up one of their crappy dialups, instead preferring an outside ISP. Did I have a leg to stand on when I argued that I shouldn't have to pay? No. They simply charged my account. What was I going to do?
Until we make some changes in the whole mentality of higher education in this country, these sorts of examples will prevail. Instead of students serving the Universities, Universities need to serve the needs of the students. Students will continue to be overcharged, underrepresented, bullied, and "processed" through a system which just wants money at every turn.
It's been going on for years. It's high time someone makes use of the collective powers of the Internet to change this.
Re:Constitutionality? (Score:2)
No, they don't. That's the problem. Ever since I've been going to school, I've been losing my rights at the schoolhouse door. No talking out of turn. No foul language. No hats. No drinking, even off-campus. No girls in the guys' dorms, and vice versa. I could go on, but you get the point. This isn't a change - this is the status quo. At least now that I'm in college things are getting a little better. The point is, you're not really free until you get to the Real World.
Coke is far superior
No argument there. Of course, I'd still rather have a Sobe, but...
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Re:OT: Linux Service? (Score:2)
Re:dialpad.. (Score:2)
Re:winipcfg (Score:2)