China Hits Internet With Secrecy Rules 280
MetalHead writes "Anyone running a Web site in China may be interested in this story." You should check this out even if you don't run a Chinese site; it's yet another case of a government cracking down on news media.
Re:It appears that most Chinese are fine with this (Score:1)
Eek. I actually have never heard a decent reason behind the criminilisation of marijuana. I remember one senator a couple decades ago saying it "forced people to have sex with negros and satanists", but somehow I doubt that excuse would fly today.
And also, the reasoning that it could cause you to do bad things doesn't fly well with me either. It's the same thing as drunk driving laws -- we already have laws against impaired driving, so why do we need another law to do almost entirely the same thing? If someone can be over the legal limit and still not be impaired, then what's the harm? If someone's over the limit and is impaired, then there's already a law to cover it. The same thing can be carried over to drug laws. If someone takes drugs and acts recklessly, then there should be laws to arrest them on acting recklessly. If someone can take those same drugs and not act recklessly, then there's no harm done.
Re:Shows how little I know... (Score:1)
Re:China blocks free speech? Horrors! (Score:1)
Too Many Sanctions [cato.org]
A Chance to Rethink Sanctions [cato.org]
Stuck in Sanctions [freetrade.org]
Time to Stop Sanctioning the World [cato.org]
Democracy is not a market structure! (Score:1)
Pet Peeve: "Logic dictates..." (Score:2)
Logic only tells you that, if B follows from A, and A, then B. It doesn't tell you that B necessarily follows whether or not A.
Sorry, pet peeve.
Re: George (Score:2)
This, coming from a guy with no teeth.
Re:It appears that most Chinese are fine with this (Score:2)
And for those that aren't quite sure if we are brainwashed, do yourselves a favor and try to learn things our schools didn't want to teach us. Edison did not invent the light bulb. Fulton did not invent the steamboat. Columbus was not the first European to see the New World... etc.
This is best seen when foriegners come to the U.S. My friends often have exchange students come over and after a few days will ask: "So, where are all the KKK houses? We heard they were all over." or "I can't believe I've been in the U.S. for a week and haven't seen anyone get shot." These are actual thoughts from European students, who already live in a free world. Imagine what kind of statistics the Chinese are learning! It shouldn't be hard to see that there are probably a lot of Chinese who
1. Love Communism and
2. Are glad they don't live in the crime-ridden U.S.
...but I still think we're right
Rick
Re:China blocks free speech? Horrors! (Score:1)
Before the introduction in 1970 of protectionism and state direction of the economy, Mexico enjoyed annual growth rates of 6%, and single-digit inflation. Banks were nationalized in 1982, and by 1988 the inflation rate hit 159%, and real wages declined 45%. The Peso Crisis was only one in a long line of bad decisions in expansionist monetary policy in Mexico. Some argue that NAFTA made the recovery from the recent crisis much faster than similar events in the 80's. Mexico needs an independent voice like Alan Greenspan running their monetary policy. And they need to privatize the state owned oil monopoly, PEMEX.
Keep in mind there is only one party in real power in Mexico, the PRI, and it's been that way since the revolution. Even in El Salvador there is a rich multi-party democracy (now that the US and USSR stopped paying for the civil war), along with substantial growth of the economy.
Not to mention the incredible amount of drug war funded corruption in the Mexican government and police at all levels. Of course, I blame the US for the drug war.
A question (Score:1)
More importantly where is this information going to come from? A lot of us are assuming that it's going to come from the West, but all they're likely to get from here is a lot of crap about eating Big Macs in Ford Explorers with a PalmPilot in your pocket is going to make you happy. As far as I understand it the Chinese govt. is very happy with consumerism and is moving rapidly towards a consumer society, this has been part of its official policy for the last 7 years. So, where's the disturbing democratic free-thought coming from?
The Internet **is** controlable... (Score:2)
To use the open-source analogy, the Internet is like a free, open bazzar, but it is possible for a colusion of large international companys, the protect-our-children crowd, and big government to
build walls around the bazzar and regulate trafic and turn it into a fake, controled, "safe" 24-hour shopping mall.
It would probably destroy most of the good things about the internet, but I think that many of the above-mentioned Big Three would not mind a mindless shopping mall of "Good, Wholesome Capitalistic Americal Values"
Why would Microsoft, Jerry Falwell, or the Chinese government need free-speach??
Whom is the more oppressive? (Score:3)
It's true that parts of the U.S. government have acted in such a manner in the past, and probably will try to do so again. The difference is that U.S. citizens have recourse to the protections provided by the U.S. Constitution and enforced through the judicial system. Granted, this doesn't always work (just ask the Cherokee Indians, or any of the Americans who were interned on the west coast during WWII), but there is the clear understanding that U.S. citizens have certain rights and have an expectation of legal recourse when those rights are violated. In the People's Republic of China, you have no rights except what the Party determines that you have.
In short, in the U.S. we have the rule of law, which may not always be enforced evenly. In China there is rule by fiat of the Party, which guarantees uneven standing under the law. Yes, the U.S. is far from perfect, but I don't think you can compare the full history of both countries (remember, the U.S. has about four times as much) without deciding that China has a much more oppressive government.
government responds by blocking geoshities (Score:1)
Re:China is playing with fire (Score:1)
Gains that have happened in China are actually slowing down now as the government tries harder and harder to crack down on the political views of the growing middle class.
I don't think anyone can say one way or the other that trading with China will by itself end the totalitarian dictatorship there. At the end of the day, we cannot export freedom. If people want it, they must TAKE it for themselves.
However we can definately say that 1) there is a middle class in China now who are beginning to have the means to think about counter-revolution and 2) things are looking better there than Cuba, who the US has no trade with and 3) at least Chinese aren't starving to death in politically created famines as has happened in the past in China, and is happening right now in North Korea.
Re:It appears that most Chinese are fine with this (Score:1)
In Cuba, any political mistakes you make (not attending a political rally, not volunteering for cutting sugar cane, etc.) goes on your permanent record. This can lead to you being unable to get a job.
Any political dissention can lead to your arrest. Informers are placed in almost every block. From the day you are born, you are faced with a daily decision to go along with the government line or face poverty or imprisonment.
In China, political dissent can be a death sentence as well.
Re:How will the Gvmt respond... (Score:1)
> that money is one of the driving factors
> of the production of news items.
Not necessarily true. The general populations of many East Asian nations have a strong streak of dissidence in them. Chinese society in particular exhibits this behavior - it has a great deal to do with growing dissatisfaction over the disparity between the quality of life in the PRC and in Western nations. It has been noted that this dissident behavior shows up most often in university-level students - the very people most likely to understand the internet, and the people most likely (outside of government officers themselves) to have internet access.
Here's how a likely scenario would play out: A group of students much like those at Tiananmen Square a decade ago come upon (by hook or by crook) some information damaging to the Chinese government. Using an anonymizer, they post the information to Geocities/Xoom/WebJump/so on and so forth. Or they smuggle it out as an attachment or an encrypted email to someone outside the country. In the former case, the information is posted and the Chinese government will have a singularly difficult time tracing it because I doubt Yahoo! or Xoom or any other hosting company is particularly anxious to make their information known to governments. As a result, then, the Chinese go into spin overload mode, trying to deny what's been publicized.
In the second, the information isn't necessarily made public, and the government may in fact be none the wiser - it's impossible for a government - especially one responsible for over a billion people - to review each and every individual piece of information that leaves its borders electronically.
In either situation, though, the Chinese will probably not hesitate to backtrack on their stated goal not to restrict the Internet in China. There's a definite tradeoff - if the Net becomes a significant source of leakage, which it very, very easily could become, then the government will take definitive - and quite possibly violent - steps to close down those leaks and the structures which made them possible. Any leakage, if discovered, will *not* last long.
But that doesn't mean it's not possible. After all, once the information's out.. well.. you know what happened to DeCSS.
Chris Tembreull
Web Developer, NEC Systems, Inc.
My opinions are my own, and nobody else's.
Re:if thats how they want to run their country (Score:1)
-B
Re:China blocks free speech? Horrors! (Score:2)
I never said it didn't. I just said it doesn't always, and it doesn't because the media is afraid to, but that they choose to.
Well, from my perspective most reporting is extremely biased in favour of the status quo.
You won't get any disagreement from me on that point, however, the part of it that matters is the word "most". That is significantly different than all. You may have to work to find it, but there are media outlets in the US that offer distinctly nonconforming viewpoints. In a country like China, publishers of such content are brutally suppressed. Occasionally rogue government groups will harrass people like that here in the US, but it isn't an official policy, and generally when they get caught, something is done about it. Not usually as much as should be, but usually something at least.
Take the Seattle coverage, how much of the media focussed on the insignificant and unrepresentative trouble caused by a surprisingly small minority of the crowds?
I would agree that a lot of the press did a poor job of covering that story, but the difference was they did it because they wanted to cover it that way, not because the government made them. Unfortunately, a lot of their behavior in that case was due to their desire for sensationalism.
How much did it focus on the brutality of using tear-gas?
Enough that you know about it. In a truly oppressive society, anyone reporting that kind of detail would probably be jailed.
I really have to disagree with such a rosy assessment.
Don't mistake my statement as 'rosy'. I am no big defender of the US government when they are going over the edge, but I just don't see a lot of evidence that the US government is doing a lot to try to stifle the press. Instead, I would be critical of the press for not always taking advantage of the freedom they have to try to present a balanced, unbiased view of the whole news. Their biggest sin is usually the sin of omission, and of placement (they just neglect to cover things that don't match their biases, or they cover them on a back page, etc).
Better countries? Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland.
By what criteria though? I have nothing in particular against any of those countries (I'm 1/4 Norwegian by descent), but I personally don't want to live in a country with high taxation, oppressive gun control or socialized medicine either. I can't say for sure that all of those countries suffer from those ills, but I know that at least a couple of them suffer from one or more of those problems.
Commies? (Score:2)
Re:Totalitarism is bad??? (Score:1)
Shows how little I know... (Score:1)
Re:Whom is the more oppressive? (Score:1)
In short, in the U.S. we have the rule of law, which may not always be enforced evenly. In China there is rule by fiat of the Party, which guarantees uneven standing under the law. Yes, the U.S. is far from perfect, but I don't think you can compare the full history of both countries (remember, the U.S. has about four times as much) without deciding that China has a much more oppressive government.
I'd certainly agree that China has a more oppressive govt and did so in my original post. I do question the idea that the constitution protects us though. The constitution is implemented legally through interpretations by the courts - yes, they are argued about publically, but they are still utlimately decided by the judiciary. So, an original constitutional provision can come to take on very specific interpretations which may be different from the original intent. Therefore we are, as you say under the rule of law. So too are the Chinese, under the rule of law of the party. That makes it a good deal easier to chop-and-change the rules when there is no reference document that has to be fought over, so yes, the U.S. is better that way. However, it's by no means perfect here and there is a real democratic deficit here where the legislators, elected officials and the educated are in the loop and running the country and the vast majority don't even vote. Also, our democratic obligations and pretensions to justice shouldn't just stop at our borders, we inflict much suffering on other countries through our attacks on them whether by using our weight as a trading partner to enforce sanctions (on Cuba and Iraq) or militarily attacking them covertly (Nicaragua, Guatemala, etc.etc.).
So in my mind it feels wrong for people to be getting so upset about China when we've got plenty on our own plate that we should deal with first.
Re:Taiwan.com? (Score:1)
Re:How do you say? (Score:2)
And totalitarian states (like Singapore sometimes appears to be)
And clueless, brain dead, wanna-be totalitarian governments (like the ones we have here in Australia).
Oh, and a stack of religions/cults
Hmmmm..... Face it, anyone who has a vested interest in protecting their power situation will do almost anything to protect it. Slowly removing the ability to bitch/moan/coerce/educate freely is one of the best ways of doing it.
Hell, if I were evil overlord with slaves, harem and so on, I'd be doing all I could to protect my situation. I've read The Rules [eviloverlord.com]
Assist Information Leakage (Score:1)
Robert
Re:China blocks free speech? Horrors! (Score:1)
Re:China blocks free speech? Horrors! (Score:1)
OH please, the "protesters" in Seattle were nothing but a bunch of crackheads who didn't have a frigging clue what they were protesting. The police showed remarkable restraint and did their best to allow the protesters and the conventioners to cohabitate. It was only when the demonstrations turned violent that the police were forced to use tear-gas, to protect property and the rights of the people who had travelled from all over the World to meet each other.
I was there. I know some of the people who were "protesting". The ones I spoke with didn't have a position on the subject that could stand up to more than 10 minutes of argument. It was mostly a bunch of kids whose parents pay for school and everything else who were bored and loved to pretend there was a cause to rebel against
This is not to say that there weren't people with legitimate causes they were protesting there. They were in the minority, though
Interestingly, if you read reports in newspapers in other countries, they allege that it was the US government which indirectly encouraged the protesters to make talks impossible because it was in US interests that very little negotiations take place.
Re:It appears that most Chinese are fine with this (Score:4)
So, no, logic isn't universal. People (especially in totalitarian regimes like China and Cuba) don't always have complete information, and even if they do, prejudices often get in the way. Like the US in this case.
BTW, most Australians who know anything about the issues agree that our censorship policies have been infiltrated by the religious right and Something Should Be Done(TM). Unfortunately, the only thing that can be done is vote out the present Federal Government and that won't happen for another 18 months or so :(
Requiring Source Code for Encryption (Score:2)
Re:China is playing with fire (Score:2)
They tried to apply some capialistic features to their economy in the early 80's but it wasn't enough, you know the rest. Of course the whole situation is much more complex, for a good analysis try reading "End of Millenium" by Manuel Castells, most online booksellers have it. His style is very "academic" but I thought it was very interesting since I'm interested in the interplay between government, society, and technology.
So China has survived the first 30 years or so of the information revolution while allowing a capitalist development model (I really don't know how extensive) but they still lack a lot economically, much of their population is in poverty. They also rely on a lot of "technology transfer" (stealing from the US mostly. much of what you hear on this is US media/gov't propeganda, but it does happen.) The Soviet Union did a lot of this as well, especially in the computer industry, with a lot of reverse engineering. Unfortunatly, after a while they just fell too far behind and couldn't recreate western technology. So China might be in trouble.
However, what is the threat really? That Chinese will find out "the truth" by looking at American websites? I think a form of that already happened at tiennaman square 11 years ago. No matter how bad the situtation is for the majority of the population, if the government can indoctrinate the population well enough, they most likely won't rebel. Even our government practices this, with a few layers of plausable deniability. Infromation control is the key here, and they ARE playing with fire if they really want to use the internet for eceonomic gain. Capitalism and thus materialism is an powerful apathy producing drug (just look at it in our society) and the chinese seem to be applying it as well. The poor are probably the best hope for some type of revolution.
The chinese government's ruthless nature can prevent change as well, they have shown that they are very much willing to kill their citizens who disagree with them, on a level far beyond what the US practices.
It's unfortunate, if they developed a government similar to ours (which is corrupt as well but it's still better than communism) they could easily be the economic powerhouse of this century.
Re:It appears that most Chinese are fine with this (Score:1)
This is a nitpick, but the above things really aren't independant thought. They are just erroneous facts. I just graduated from highschool, and we learned that the Vikings were the first (euro's) to travel to the continent. However for all practical purpose, it was Columbus's rediscovery 500 years later that led to the formation of our Country. He didn't even land on any part associated with America if I remeber correctly. I belive America Vesitigo (probably not his real name, but its close to it :) was the first to actually rediscover America (after the vikings that is).
I just garduated from hs (last year), and my general impression was the emphasis was more on concepts and less on memorization of facts (although that still did play a prominent role). It appears that they are actually starting to teach you how to _think_ and not just regurgitate in public schools now a day (at least mine did).
To quote the great philosopher, Moby... (Score:1)
Re:It appears that most Chinese are fine with this (Score:1)
"Communities" and "societies" are absolutely nothing without individuals. They come into existence purely through the actions and interactions of individuals and don't matter a damn compared to the individuals that comprise them. Once you forget that simple truth and try to glorify the "community" or the "nation" over the "lone individual", you get 99% of the barbarism and slaughter of this century.
Re:if thats how they want to run their country (Score:1)
Because even the people on Slashdot who happen to be from the United States aren't "the US" or "the US government", but instead individuals with opinions and moral viewpoints who may (may) happen to dislike totalitarianism.
And that, of course, has exactly nothing to do with the US government butting ino the business of other nations.
Eloquent! (Score:1)
The near-religious belief that free-trade will somehow cure all problems is so naive and pollyanna-ish that it beggars belief. Add to this that the U.S. does not practice free-trade and you have to wonder are the advocates of it aware of the the disjunction of reality and fantasy.
Re:China blocks free speech? Horrors! (Score:2)
I am not always happy with some things that happen here in the US. I don't believe that the US is perfect. However, it could be a lot worse than it is, and comparitively, I can't think of many examples of countries that are better.
Re:Why do we accept the Reds as equals?! (Score:3)
> want nothing more than to tear down the
> freedom that we have online Maybe you could be a little bit more ridiculous next time, hmm?
Communist governments (which China, no matter how loudly it claims otherwise, is NOT) have no fear of releasing information to the public, because they know that the public, as good Communists, will not in turn release that information to the world. At the same time, until a worldwide revolution is in place, then Communist governments must keep their cards close to their vests, because they're well aware that not everyone is a good Communist.
You might go so far as to compare the free software movement to a burgeoning Communistic revolution. We, the people who use free software, are encouraged (possibly expected) to contribute to the spread of this mode of software distribution, whether it be by enhancing the kernel, creating new software, integrating old software, porting software from other platforms, running informational websites, evangelizing, and so on and so forth. All the tools and information we need are provided freely to us, so long as we pass these tools and data on to others, also for free, and incorporating any modifications we make. In this way, we spread the revolution across the world, and the Internet is what makes it all possible. We have no fear of our source code falling into capitalist hands (e.g. Microsoft) because we know that it already has and it is powerless to stop our advance - we come with a better way of life, and let capitalism tremble at our footsteps!
You see, we who participate in this glorious software revolution are, after a fashion, Communists. Everything we do is for the enhancement of our community - our State.
Your mistake, my anonymous friend, is in thinking that governments such as the old Soviet Union and China and the Eastern Bloc were Communist. They were not. They were, in fact, Socialist governments, which are sort of a blend of Communism and ordinary, garden-variety totalitarianism. They are a middle point, a semi-secure position to take after the revolution has begun, the communization of the country is in progress - they are a bulwark against the rest of the world while the State waits for the worldwide revolution that Marx, Engels, and Lenin stated *must* come for Communism to succeed.
Sorry 'bout the rant there, but I really dislike having people make such foolish statements about my political beliefs. Oh, that's right, I forgot to tell you - you see, I am a Communist, and proud to be one. We're not about suppression of freedom, not by any stretch of the imagination. We're about the idea that a unified state can best take care of its people if their production is guided and utilized by the state itself, and then returned to them in the form of the things they require to live and thrive. And the Internet, to us, is the best way we've yet seen to encourage the rest of the world to join us in making life better for ALL citizens of the world - not just the wealthy.
Chris Tembreull
Web Developer, NEC Systems, Inc.
My opinions are my own, and nobody else's.
Re:China blocks free speech? Horrors! (Score:1)
Do you expect the secret police to come knocking on your door because you speak out about US government abuses? Didn't think so. The situations are not even vaguely comparable.
evil is a vague term (Score:1)
Marxism? NO!NO!NO! (Score:2)
HUH??! Communism (theoretically speaking, i.e. Marxism) is absolutely and utterly at odds with totalitarianism. In fact, democracy was supposed to evolve into communism (through a few steps), and culminate in the dissolution of government. Government by the people, for the people. The problem with communism is that it assumes that if people are equal and happy, avarice, greed, and powerlust will die out. Never going to happen.
I really have to question your equation of communism with Marxism! Communism is nothing more nor less than the principle that there are no indvidual property rights. All goods are common property and the use of them should be determined by the community.
This is separate from Marxism which admits this principle and builds a very specific structure on it that could fairly be construed as authoritarian and totalitarian. This was one of the main differences in the 1st Working Men's International which split at the Hague Congress 1972 over issues of authority. The Libertarian Communists/Anarchists such as Bakunin were expelled. They believed in autonomous federations. Marx believed in dictatorship of the proletariat. Definitely totalitariansim.
Regards, Crush
Re:Yeah, Cato is so reputable and all.. (Score:1)
HAHAHA! the Cato institute eh? we are talking about the same shamelessly biased right-wing "think-tank" here are we not?
you can show me hundreds upon thousands of pages of material cranked out by the Cato Institute, and you will objectively prove absolutely nothing to me besides something I already know:
Money talks. And bullshit walks.
the only place you're going to see the Cato Institute, or anyone who serves them, taken seriously, is in the usual mega-mass-media joints, where there is obviously a vested interest in pushing this Free Market (tm) crap down everyone's throats, while filtering out all that nasty dissent that is so hard to swallow.. oh and have a closer look at who funds and works for Cato sometime too.. probably should be doing that before you cite them as some sort of authority rather than the propaganda-machine they are..
Re: moderate the troll down PLEASE. (Score:1)
moderate this guy up, or moderate down the
knob calling all the protestors "crackheads"
and basically spewing out the myopic opinion
that the media fed to his stupid ass?
I was in Seattle as well, and I'm fucking
AMAZED at all these people who watched CNN and
think they just KNOW ALL ABOUT what happened,
who apologize for the police, and generally
just toss it off as "crackpot stuff", not
worth thinking about really.. busybusybusy..
oh and nevermind the fact that the constitution
was suspended in Seattle. that too, water under
the bridge in Amerika. just goes to show you
that there is a reason to worry about media
concentration/distortion : because there really
ARE legions of dunces out there who can't be
bothered to really look into something, and
are going to swallow the prefabricated
corporate perspectives no questions asked.
easier on the noggin to do that I guess..
SIEG HEIL, and hurrah for the US of A!
Erratum (Score:1)
Re:Exactly... case in point (Score:1)
-----------------------
Re:China blocks free speech? Horrors! (Score:2)
Protests that are suppressed in China aren't reported to the people or are at least reported with the best possible spin for the governmnent.
Yes, this happens in China, yes it's bad. Does it not happen here? Well, from my perspective most reporting is extremely biased in favour of the status quo. Take the Seattle coverage, how much of the media focussed on the insignificant and unrepresentative trouble caused by a surprisingly small minority of the crowds? How much did it focus on the brutality of using tear-gas? I really have to disagree with such a rosy assessment.
Better countries? Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland.
Re:It appears that most Chinese are fine with this (Score:2)
The schools I went to never had such brainwashing. Is the state of education in the US really so bad? Don't answer this, I probably already know the answer.
Well, that depends on what class you belong to here - rich people get a pretty good education, better than some Europeans! ;)
Open Your eyes, and see what your government does wrong, this is more important to you than what happens on the other side of the planet.
Well, that hasn't actually been true for a long time and it's becoming less true by the day. Yes, we should open our eyes to the problems of our own governments, but we can't ignore other nations! We are affected by them and by trans-national corporations, we should know as much about them as we can stomach! You can unfortunately no longer develop an isolated perfect society - if you ever could: remember all the socialist debate about one-nation socialism vs. global socialism?
Crush
Re:China blocks free speech? Horrors! (Score:2)
Re:China blocks free speech? Horrors! (Score:2)
NAFTA is not exactly the equivalent of free trade. A free trade treaty doesn't require that level of detail.
The USSR proved that the welfare of people and the environment is ignored when power is put in the hands of the government, and it's my belief that the next 20 years are going to show that the welfare of people and the environment are non-existent when placed in the hands of multinational corporations and the capitalist class.
I agree with you there. Corporations don't have values. They exist to organize groups of people to produce products and services for a profit. Any care for our neighbors and environment is going to come from people. That is not to say that corporations can't participate, and they often do. Many companies will match charitable contributions of various sorts by their employees. But in the end, the choice of what causes to support and the support for them comes from individual people.
Personally, I am a bleeding heart libertarian. I want government out of the charity business, and I give generously to charities that I think are getting it right.
Re:stealing? (Score:2)
I did not see any indication that stormfront.org was a Nazi site; there is a Nazi political party, and I saw no such affiliation. I did see plenty of indications of white supremacist beliefs.
Re:The trouble with /. (Score:2)
I don't agree with the idea of eliminating anonymous moderation. The reason is that there would then be "political" pressure on people to make moderations that they secretly don't agree with. Anonymous peer review is fair and works well in other fields. But it would be good if there were a lower threshold for removal of moderators.
I certainly agree with removing the bonus +1 for those with high karma. Karma of a poster should be available as a clickable link so that those with an authoritarian mind-set can look to see what everyone else is saying before making their own minds up. I don't really like the expression "Fuck the Karma Whores" though - presumably they'd expect extra karma for that.
I'm going to use my +1 in an ironic and self-mocking sense now.
Re:China is playing with fire (Score:2)
We have no real evidence that a use of the internet for economic purposes *inherently* implies it's use for political purposes. It is up to us (non-Chinese) to make/keep those purposes mutually exclusive. This means we must help people in China who have somethingh nasty to say about their government to get their message out. This means anonymous remailers, anonymous web hosting, etc. It also means putting economic preasure on China to reform.
Also, adding StegFS [cam.ac.uk] in the default Linux kernel distribution would help a lot too, as it gives people plausable deniability for having it installed (the system it's self gives you plausible deniability for not giving up the key). Making crypto a standard part of the kernel would really help a lot of people in these situations.
Jeff
Re:Eloquent! (Score:2)
60%? Where did you come up with that figure? I don't think defense spending was ever anywhere near that high even under such strong-arm cold war presidents as Truman, Kennedy, Johnson or Reagan. Note that I leave out Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford and Carter because in general they didn't boost defense spending as much as the others I listed did).
And as someone should point out, without defense spending we would never have had a space program or many of the technological advances we enjoy (particularly in the computer field) today.
While I think the US government probably spends too much money on defense these days, and it is almost unquestionable there is still tons of waste in defense spending, I think it is a bit silly to think that it never benefitted the average person.
Re:Whom is the more oppressive? (Score:2)
Just because people are upset about China doesn't mean they aren't upset when our government does something it shouldn't. Plenty of people complain about that sort of thing here and on other forums as well. There is of course differences of opinion on what is right and wrong, but that is only natural. At any rate, I think that most people have more than enough capacity to get upset to be upset both at the Chinese government and the US government.
Re:Part 2 of Chapter 1 of my Great Troll Epic. (Score:2)
huh? (Score:2)
Did I miss something?
Re:huh? (Score:2)
Nevermind. The post just got moderated down below my viewing level. I see it now.
How will the Gvmt respond... (Score:2)
------------
Before you bash China... (Score:2)
...remember that the USA government (and governments of many other nations) has a long history of censoring indiscriminately things it doesn't agree with. The various religious groups and corporations who control government think nothing of squashing anything they find offensive or against their interests.
________________________________
How do you say? (Score:2)
How do you say "troll -1" in Chinese?
How do you say "moderators on crack" in Chinese?
Only communist countries will try to silence Internet users!
Related story (in that "Big Brother" way) (Score:2)
China blocks free speech? Horrors! (Score:4)
This is not news.[1] This is not a change of policy. This is entirely consistent with the Chinese government's way of doing things.
Something you might want to consider then next time your government talks about 'wonderful foreign trade opportunities with China.'
[1] Which isn't to say that I don't think it should have been posted--it's definitely a
Is this truly shocking? (Score:2)
While government regulation/limitation/control may be protested in the U.S., it's almost the norm for many other countries such as China and Cuba. At least in the U.S. we give slanderous and hateful idiots the first amendment to try to hide behind. =P
-k
--
Exactly... case in point (Score:2)
Case in point: the recent DeCSS fiasco...
BigCorps: "Hey, we can't physically stop the average joe from copying stuff he's bought legally... let's make a law where making copying equipment is illegal.. oh, that reminds me, Harold, how is that proposal coming, you know, that one where it would be illegal to think about copying?"
Re:Before you bash China... (Score:2)
Valhalla vs. Hell (Score:2)
You want high taxes, government rationed healthcare and oppressive gun control?
I'll just suggested a couple of things based on my experience of having lived for years in countries other than the U.S (nothing like experience for a different perspective) and having visited many others:
Re:It appears that most Chinese are fine with this (Score:2)
You can drink as much alcohol you like, as long as you don't drive until you've sobered up.
Annoucement from Rob Mao-alda. (Score:5)
Moderation catagories will now be:
Dissenting -1
Dissenting -1
Dissenting -1
Dissenting -1
Stealing American Nuclear Secrets +1
Please return to your normal browsing.
China is playing with fire (Score:5)
Sometimes, you can walk a fine line between two opposing needs. There is a happy medium where each need is satisfied. I believe that there is an "unhappy medium" where neither need is satisfied, and the government is actually at risk of losing the Internet opportunity as well as their own control over their people.
The Internet is not about technology. It's been around since the sixties, and the Web could have been invented in the seventies. The Web is about community; the technology only gives us an opportunity to meet, and that's where the magic starts. Strict control over a portion of the Internet immediately renders that portion useless.
I think that the only chance for the Chinese government to survive in its present form (and, frankly, I'd rather it didn't) would be for it to close off the Internet entirely to its people, and to ignore it as an economic opportunity. I feel that anything less would destablize the Chinese government. The nation would not collapse, China would still exist, but it would have a new form of government.
If the Chinese government allows access but try to control it, they will destroy their own power structure and lose an economic opportunity simultaneously.
Re:Eloquent! (Score:2)
35% sounds a lot more like the numbers I'd seen quoted.
This is in the context of a piece which talks about how Ben&Jerry's co-founder Cohen wants to divert some of that money towards education - a goal support by 79% of Americans in one poll.
While I'd in general say that education is a better way to spend the money than on defense, I'd prefer to put that kind of money towards paying down the national debt.
It appears that most Chinese are fine with this (Score:2)
Is it that logical reasoning that can lead to this conclusion simply does not exist, and it is all a matter of perspective? Or is it that the citizens of those countries aren't able to get to the "enlightening" information?
China's Secrets... (Score:2)
I am not surprised at all by China's actions. The Chinese spent millions of dollars funneling campaign donations to the US Democratic Party for the sole purpose of acquiring US military technology. If I was dishing out big bucks to Bill Clinton for this material, the last thing I would want to happen is my citizens giving away those secrets to the world on the Internet for free.
So kudoos to the Chinese Government! Smart move. Bribe US Democratic Leaders for military secrets and then crack down on your own citizens so those secrets don't leak out for free to other 3rd world countries. You got to protect your investment.
Re:China blocks free speech? Horrors! (Score:2)
I certainly understand the gut reaction to the situation. However, trade restrictions generally hurt people on the side that is maintaining the restriction. This assertion follows from the arguments presented in Chapter 19: Applications - Conventional and Unconventional [best.com] of David Friedman's book, Price Theory: An Intermediate Text [best.com]. Exchange of reliable information is essential to economic efficiency. As a result, free trade tends to develop channels for the exchange of information, regardless of the desires of anyone besides the participants. In the end, it will benefit both sides and make both sides more free.
Thought for the Day (Score:3)
Jackbooted thugs breaking into a certain Danish home probably indicate much bigger, more threatening players in the big-stakes game of Global Domination.
IMHO, the Chinese mandating secure web sites is probably a good thing. Certainly better than the US, Japan, et al. (Mind you, Japan's attitude to, ummm, certain historical events could be construed as baiting.)
Whilst I can't condone any organisation, be it a private company or a national government, imposing censorship and 1984-style mind control, at least there's some semblance of directness about what they're doing. The film industry seems to much prefer subterfugue, lies, intimidation, threats, and tactics remeniscent of 1940's Germany.
Re:Shows how little I know... (Score:2)
There is another show of Chinese tight control on internet in cn-crypto.htm [cryptome.org], where eevrybody within China has to give the government key to they encrypiton, even foreign companies.
Re:How will the Gvmt respond... (Score:2)
Then it's still illegal to be or pay a cyber journalist. From the article, I got the impression that money is one of the driving factors of the production of news items. If you take away the money aspect, or at least, seriously reduce it by making it illegal, you take away a lot of cyber journalists. Sure, those who do it for the love of freedom will always find a way to distribute news - but for the government, it's a lot easier to claim that the "news" of a small group of people using illegal means, and foreign help is propaganda then having a battery of legal sites inside the country.
-- Abigail
Re:Before you bash China... (Score:3)
The regulations appear to give authorities a powerful instrument of control over the Internet in the name of protecting sensitive government information.
China's definition of state secrets is so broad it can encompass virtually any information not specifically approved for publication.
From this:
The regulations appear to give authorities a powerful instrument of control over the Internet in the name of protecting the children from exposure to indecent material.
The USA's definition of indecent material is so broad it can encompass virtually anything that contains an opinion different from the mainstream, challenges accepted boundaries, or material that 8% of the population might find offensive.
And no, its not that bad yet, but it could be someday soon.
Re:It appears that most Chinese are fine with this (Score:4)
It's really a trade-off, IMO. Chinese people are raised in an environment where their freedoms are restricted "for the good of the state," and thus enjoy a tiny fraction of the crime rate of other countries and relatively happy, quiet lives. Lots (most?) of the population is either content to let the government censor news and information or is oblivious to the fact.
Other (most) countries take a different view, where information is relatively free and people are less encumbered when expressing their views and opinions. At the same time, we are, like you say, taught that excessive government control ("oppression") is quite the evil thing, and how can you argue, since the people teaching us this have access to all the information we need to make a qualified opinion on the matter while those on the other end of the stick don't?
Everyone says China is a corrupt government run by corrupt officials and a corrupt legal system, but you know, there's probably as many facts supporting this as there are supporting the same conclusions about America.
I'm not trying to defend China here or anything, but a lot of these decisions really are based in a person's perception (or, rather, what the media likes to stress) and the way they're brought up.
If I may refer to a Star Trek quote, logic dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Unfortunately, you cannot accurately quantify (for example) a person's need for privacy with one's need for safety. They're two completely incomparable items, and comparisons like this are what makes countries and governments different, and are things most easily influenced by emotion and upbringing.
Re:It appears that most Chinese are fine with this (Score:2)
For a start, Australia is not a Communist country. I've no idea where you got that idea from - oh, and kangaroos aren't fed in the street either...
Secondly, who said that knowing Communism was evil equated to "enlightenment"? I would argue that considering Communism itself to be evil is highly ignorant. Certainly, evil acts have been committed in the name of Communism, but then, evil acts have been committed in the name of Christianity, Judaism, Capitalism, Socialism, Antiquarianism and Libertarianism too.
Note that I chose to embolden the word "name". You can argue all you want about "evil" acts being representative of a movement, but when those acts are committed in the name of the movement, as opposed to the spirit of the movement, your argument holds no water.
Remember, that whatever you've been taught, or whatever you've chosen to learn, the ideals of totalitarianism and the ideals of Communism are on absolute opposite sides of the track. Communism != Totalitarianism.
Do you believe a man is good, simply because he says so? Conversely, do you believe a man is evil, simply because another says so?
Think on that... and think about what your educational system would teach... or is that preach?
This could work in our favor. (Score:2)
I think a public execution would work wonders to get a few relays secured.
A related article in South China Morning Post (Score:2)
Great (fire)wall of China (Score:2)
I wonder what the Hong Kong Blondes are going to do...?
Re:China blocks free speech? Horrors! (Score:2)
The US isn't really so different to the countries it arbitrarily chooses to oppose.
Re:Commies? (Score:2)
Communism and totalitarianism relate to each other in a way similar to democracy and capitalism - one isn't the other, but they have often both been present in the same governments.
Re:Totalitarism is bad??? (Score:4)
"Communism goes hand in hand with Totalitarism" HUH??! Communism (theoretically speaking, i.e. Marxism) is absolutely and utterly at odds with totalitarianism. In fact, democracy was supposed to evolve into communism (through a few steps), and culminate in the dissolution of government. Government by the people, for the people. The problem with communism is that it assumes that if people are equal and happy, avarice, greed, and powerlust will die out. Never going to happen.
You'll notice that I never refered to China as a Communist country in my original post...
Moving on, "They [governments] are not evil, they just have a different method for creating a great country."
...and also...
"Again, I don't agree with their methods but I do know they aren't evil."
While it's true that governments may not be inherently evil, they're also not inherently good, and not necessarily interested in creating a good country. Take the Taliban in Afghanistan, for instance; I can't imagine that they have anything other than their own power/money, and the destruction of anyone they hate in mind. They did _not_ forcibly take control to create a happy, egalitarian society.
As a final point, I'd point out that "evil" is a vague term. Wiping out all hints of cultural impurity (a la the cultural revolution) may not have been an evil goal to those doing it, but to me it is, no matter what.
And regardless of all of this, we still have to look at China's record. No matter what comes out of their mouths, the blood on their hands won't wash off easily.
Re:Requiring Source Code for Encryption (Score:2)
According to US national newspaper cn-crypto.htm [cryptome.org] it has to be Chinese software - so they already have the source (Oh, well - this is communism - don't forget, with orgainzed party members in highest post of every company - nobody can keep a secret before the party).
All they reqire is just every private key, name of its owner, his e-mail address, address and phone number. No more.
Alegedly, this is not trying to crack on independent media - may I remind - there aint no such thing in China. This is against dissidents and members of the banned sect Falun Dafa, who dare to talk together without their government hearing it !
Petrus.
China not too worried about "the truth" (Score:3)
No, the Chinese government is more worried about the Internet fostering activism. When each dissenter has to stand up to the government alone, it's easy to frighten everyone into submission. But let people get organized, let the dissenters know they are not alone, and before too long you can't frighten anyone into submission. That's what the Chinese government fears, and that's what it is trying to crack down on with these measures.
-r
Re:Bad News... (Score:2)
Communism and Information (Score:2)
As long as you have a type of political philosophy you essentially have the government. That does not mean that the government does in principal exist. People very much believed that communism when Stalin and the boys were in control. Yes in theory he ran a different ship but try telling that to them or others who wanted to look at things in a more formal manner.
Tell me why fasciasm is politically incorrect and communism is more so? Is this to mean that we should all believe in communism if we are to be good citizens?
The policies of China make it in the style of governments of the 20th century who tried to call themselves communist in that they are attempting to censor material that disagrees with the state. In fact in almost every government calling the people in control fools is usually a really bad idea. Just look at the Sedition acts passed around WWI in the USA. Some poor shmuck called Eugene V. Debbs decided it was really cool to insult the government and big business and he got a few years in the pokey for it.
A few things... (Score:3)
1) Always remember that neither China nor the CCP are monolithic. The nature of Chinese/Confucian governance gives bureaucrats a lot more leeway in interpreting the various laws and regulations as they see fit than their counterparts in America or Europe would have. This wide-ranging discretion and power also leads to a fair ammount of corruption, but that's outside the scope of our article today.
2) This announcement is largely about internal politics. One or more members of the conservative wing of the CCP called in a favor, and so this little gem of an announcement appeared. In a few months, it may be forgotten again, or a more restrictive regulation may appear to supplant it. This arbitrary use of the law is very common.
3) In a lot of cases, Chinese law is not as hardcore as CNN or Richard Gere would make it out to be. In most cases, you receive several visits from various people explaining that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Only if you insist as a matter of principle to continue to do whatever is irritating the government will they run their teeth through you. (this does not excuse the restrictions imposed on free speech in the PRC, but serves to explain a little about how it works).
What it means for website operators is very hard to say. Bearing in mind points #1 & 2, it probably means very little. If your organization enjoys a good relationship with your counterparts in the CCP, they are not likely to go out of their way to hassle you unless some impetus to do so is given from above. If they have it out for you, another tool has been added to their already ample box of Ways To Make Unruly Citizens Have a Lousy Day.
The proof will not be in the newspaper article or associated regulations, but in how things are handled afterwards. There's an expression in Chinese: san1 fen1 zhong1 re4 du4 literally: "Hot for three minutes", i.e. someone goes and does a crackdown to score political points, then life goes back to normal.
Take care!
Jeremy
Re:It appears that most Chinese are fine with this (Score:5)
The schools I went to never had such brainwashing. Is the state of education in the US really so bad? Don't answer this, I probably already know the answer.
China & Cuba definatly have bad things going on in their country. The US definatly has good things going on. Also, C&C have good things, and the US has bad things. To say that the things which you consider important are the only important things shows incredible arrogance.
In most of the rest of the world, a government which executes minors, has a huge percentage of it's population in jail, mainly for minor drug offenses, and denies it's sickest citizens health care would be considered inhumane, yet as that is what you are used to in the US you don't consider it "enlightening" to learn this.
The US has a long history of meddling in the affairs of other nations, from the United Fruit Company's affairs in Central America, to Vietnam and more.
This is not to say that only China & the US have governments which abuse their powers. Every government does, from the smallest to the largest.
Open Your eyes, and see what your government does wrong, this is more important to you than what happens on the other side of the planet.
Re:China blocks free speech? Horrors! (Score:2)
In the end, it will benefit both sides and make both sides more free.
Sometimes I wonder if right-Libertarians really hear what it is they're saying. In theory, yes, free trade *should* help everybody. But in the corporate capitalist economy that the US is trying so desperately to impose on other unwilling populations (just because the government is willing doesn't mean the people are), theory and reality are very opposed to eachother.
The theory is that free trade helps everybody. The reality is that since NAFTA, the economies of countries like Mexico and Ecuador (keep your eye on the current beginnings of a revolution in Ecuador) have been devastated, despite the fact that a large amount of our factory work has moved there.
Opening up trade with China will not make China a free country. More importantly, giving the WTO power over China is definitely not going to help either, although I don't think there are many labor or environmental laws in China that can be repealed.
Think really hard about the difference between the theories of unchecked capitalism and the reality. Look at what your favorite companies (those at the top of the food chain) have done and are doing to remain in their position of power. Look closely at how "free trade" (and how it relates to our current views on economics) and the actual effects that it's had on the environment, labor unions, indigenous peoples, etc. It's not pretty.
The USSR proved that the welfare of people and the environment is ignored when power is put in the hands of the government, and it's my belief that the next 20 years are going to show that the welfare of people and the environment are non-existent when placed in the hands of multinational corporations and the capitalist class.
--
gcc -o -Wall society.cc
society.cc: Classes 'government' and 'capitalism' not found!
society.cc: Derived classes, 'greed', 'oppression',
society.cc: 'hierarchy', and 'violence' will no longer
society.cc: function.
Proceed with compilation? Y/n
Michael Chisari
Re:Sloppy Journalism (Score:2)
(Cisco'd love that! Having to resell new routers to everyone... )
Just because it's distributed, don't think that it is anarchistic. I forgot the rest of my sentence - but basically, use your brains. Countries can dictate what they allow people to do within their own country.
Amnesty Anual Reports on China (Score:2)
Bad News... (Score:2)
Re:It appears that most Chinese are fine with this (Score:2)
The offshoot of this, I believe, is what we've been seeing grow and grow since the seventies: The mega-corporation and it's power over spineless government. Disempowering government disempowers me, regardless of anyone's spook theories. Ultimately, if government isn't working in the interests of the people, then it's not doing its job.
I laugh whenever I hear someone telling me that their government is "out to get everyone and that they're all-powerful" out of one side of their mouth, whilst trupeting the "goodness at the heart of their country, their liberty and their race" out the other.
If you don't trust your government, boot them out. You can't do that - even through boycotting and FUD - to a multi-national corporation with its fingers in everyone's pie.
Re:China blocks free speech? Horrors! (Score:2)
Financially, maybe. I don't care. I don't want to get the cheapest product possible if it's going to explicitly support oppression, torture, etc. etc.
Ahh, the smell of hyporcrisy in the morning.. (Score:3)
Long live the revolution, eh?
Why is it that a corrupt, foul government is overthrown by smart citizens... then the new one designed to smooth the flow of goods to everyone goes and decides that it will be the forever government, instead of a transitional one? So what does it do to cement its power? Why, the very things the original government was over thrown for!
I really with that the people had forced Mao and the rest on the hundred day march to properly get some sort of "we have rights" document signed, ala the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, or the US Constitution. Actions like this fly in the face of what Karl Marx wrote about. They also remind me of the actions of the MPAA and RIAA, so who am I to judge?
---
Re:Before you bash China... (Score:2)
No, I didn't, actually. When did the state take over the means of production? (Not that it runs all the means of production in China these days, although there's still a lot of state-run industry.)
(Censorship can be practiced by states that aren't "communist", you know....)
Re:Hey, cut them some slack. (Score:2)
Re:China is playing with fire (Score:4)
The idea that economic growth and the Internet will inevitably lead to greater political liberty in China has been bandied around for a long time.
However, if you look at how China has developed since its economic liberalization, this hasn't been the case. Economic conditions in China are improving, people are getting rich, but people are politically apathetic -- and this is probably the worse thing that can happen to democracy in China, because if you're getting rich, why do you care about abstract concepts like democracy?
It's important to distinguish between politcal freedom and personal freedom. People in China have plenty of personal liberty, but it's political liberty that they lack -- and when things are good materially, there's little reason to risk what you have for a political cause. I think it's perfectly possible for China to exploit the internet as an economic tool, but clamp down on any political use of the internet.
Unfortunately too true! (Score:4)
The crime of leaking state secrets has been used to jail journalists and is often invoked against opponents of the Communist Party.
Funnily enough we've seen exactly the same thing here, both in the past during the 30's - 50's when Communism was a little too popular for comfort (we can all afford to be tolerant about it now because it hasn't an ice-cube's chance in hell of making a revival anytime soon!) and more recently with the "nuclear secrets leak" where funnily enough a scientist who just happened to be from China (our big opponent supposedly) was accused of betraying state secrets.
Yes, that's a far cry from having to have /. monitored every day by a special FBI task force *hi guys!*, however, consider the fact that there are STILL twelve documents in the FBI files on the John Lennon investigation which they won't release. I wonder what would be the fate of any web-site that put them up if they got hold of them?
Also, while China is bad and all, We the people are still trading with the buggers, not mention Indonesia, Burma, anywhere else horrible you care to mention.