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Real's Injunction Against Streambox Lifted 70

Zippy the Pinhead writes with some welcome news: "Remember the RealNetworks vs. Streambox case a few weeks ago? Well, the judge has decided to lift the injunction against Streambox. They can now resume developing and selling their nifty RealAudio tools."
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Real's Injunction Against Streambox Lifted

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  • by Anonymous Coward
    http://www.streambox.com/Products/press.asp
  • by pb ( 1020 )
    Okay, I'm annoyed. Did any of these pinhead moderators know who Zippy is, bother to follow the attached link, or read my sig?

    It's called "humor".

    Feel free to flag this as "Offtopic", since I'm obviously replying to my own post about bad moderation. Just... please, read the original post and make your own judgements. Looks like more reason to continue to browse at -1... *sigh*
    ---
    pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11].
  • Folks, when I posted this, I only had the Streambox press release. After reading the RealNetworks release and some further comments from Alex (Streambox programmer), here's the rough truth:

    Streambox has 3 products: Ripper, which converts RA to MP3 or WAV, VCR, which records PNM, RTSP and WMA streams, and Ferret, which supplements or replaces the Snap! search box in RealPlayer.

    The Injunction against Ripper has been lifted. This is a Good Thing 'cos it was a test of how much control Real has over the format of streams under the DMCA.

    The injunction against working on Ferret and VCR has been lifted. Since VCR's beta, an injunction against sales is immaterial.

    The next step is to find out exactly where VCR crosses the line, legally. Alex sez that the big question is currently over whether VCR should have to honor the copy-protect bit in Real streams. After all, a tape deck or TotalRecorder doesn't. Meanwhile, StreamBox is working on versions of VCR with RealMedia support disabled and with copy-protect enabled.

    Watch this case! This is a significant test of the DMCA's reverse-engineering provisions.

    So, anyone wanna work on an open-source RTSP downloader? There's sample code...

  • What a surprise! Security via concensus doesn't work. Just because you and your buddies decide to repsect a bit in a file, don't be surprised when others don't. And people will still write streaming content to disk, even though you don't want them to ( oh my god he's recording off the radio! ). Without decent encryption there's no hope of restricting access. Even then, if software is involved you just have to give up hope. I can't think of any copy protrection scheme that was effective without being incredibly restrictive.

    This and the DVD debacle are only the latest indications that stupidity is still rampant in the marketplace. I know I'm breathing a sigh of relief.
  • The worst thing about the part of the decision that's in Real's favor is that they explicitly cited the lack of a fair use clause in the DMCA, as opposed to "regular" copyright law.


    It's completely bogus, in my (non-lawyer) opinion, since the courts originated the fair use defense and have long held that they alone decide
    what "fair use" means as a part of fundamental public policy (this goes back to the 1830s), and the fair use exception in Title 17 is merely a codification of the existing precedent at the time. In particular, Congress doesn't have the power, constitutionally, to define away fair use, or to prevent its claim.


    I'll be interested to see the court's ruling in writing (a representative of Real has said they'll be posting it as soon as they've got it transcribed).



    Lynn

  • ...does anyone know where I can get these utilities? I followed the link provided by Hemos, but Streambox apparently hasn't updated it yet. Is there another link?
  • I think this is actually their most interesting product. I really hate it when i can hardly understand anything in an interview just because the streaming is slow. With VCR i could at least download it and listen to it in an appropriate quality. For pirating stuff this is useless anyway as the quality sucks big time.

    So, does an "inofficial" link exist?
  • Did you even read what you pasted?

    "RealNetworks Wins Preliminary Injunction in Landmark Case Protecting Copyright Holders in the Digital Age"

    This is absolutely true.... and happened WEEKS ago! _Preliminary_ injuntion. This story is about the court case AFTER this injunction succeeded. In the court case which happened yesterday (the 18th), Streambox won. They are not 2 competing press releases, they are 2 press releases about 2 different events.

    Esperandi
    I can't fathom how you got moderated up for this.
  • If the order has been lifted how come you still can't get the injuctioned products at the company web page?
  • Never mind I jumped the gun maybe sthey read my post becasue right after i posted it they ud\pdated thier web page (though i doubt they did)
  • Never mind I jumped the gun maybe they read my post becasue right after i posted it they updated thier web page (though i doubt they did)
  • I bought a 14-CD set of RealAudio files made from taped lectures. I wanted to convert them to .WAV files for burning on rewritable CDs, then later to MP3s after I bought a Rio 500. I paid RealNetworks $30 for RealJukebox Plus, only to find that the advertised conversion feature doesn't work with mono files. RealNetworks gave me a refund, and I used it to buy Streambox Ripper (well, it was called RA2WAV at the time), which works well for my needs.

    The lawsuit really scared me... if RN wins in court, do I have to give up my conversion tool? Nice to see the courts smiling in the right direction. Thanks for posting the news on /. and improving my sanity for today.

  • Hey lets be fair here, the judicial system has made a couple of good rulings lately. But if you consider the number of rulings they have to make, and assume a heterozygous distribution of judicial idiocy. Combine it with an increasingly loud /. response to horrendous mistakes. And the increased need for judges to be reelected. Use a chi-square test and it is obvious, they are tossing us a bone. So don't be convinced they have changed yet. A moron can still get a couple right just by guessing.

    Nate Custer
  • Hey lets be fair here, the judicial system has made a couple of good rulings lately. But if you consider the number of rulings they have to make, and assume a heterozygous distribution of judicial idiocy. Combine it with an increasingly loud /. response to horrendous mistakes. And the increased need for judges to be reelected. Use a chi-square test and it is obvious, they are tossing us a bone. So don't be convinced they have changed yet. A moron can still get a couple right just by guessing.



    Nate Custer

  • Ignore this post GenCuster
  • if(strength_of_case[Prosecution] * money_spent_on_case[Prosecution] > strength_of_case[Defence] * money_spent_on_case[Defence])
    {

    }
  • if(strength_of_case[Prosecution] * money_spent_on_case[Prosecution] > strength_of_case[Defence] * money_spent_on_case[Defence])
    {
    win(Prosecution);
    strength_of_case[Prosecution]--;
    }
    else
    {
    win(Defence);
    strength_of_case[Prosecution]++;
    }

    strength_of_case[Prosecution] is decremented at each iteration if prosecution wins and incremented if they lose.
    money_spent_on_case[Prosecution] is set to compensate. so strength_of_case[Prosecution] * money_spent_on_case[Prosecution]is roughly constant
    money_spent_on_case[Defence] is a user defined value. Recently the users have been setting this abnormally high.

    Anyway, this shows that equilibrium will eventually be reached at a point where the two values are roughly equal.
  • In an article [thestandard.com] from Jan. 3 at The Standard, it says:
    The court also ordered that RealNetworks post a $1 million bond should the court later find that the restraining order was wrongfully issued.

    So, does this mean Streambox will be receiving a large cash infusion?

    Is a million enough to effect RealNetwork's operations?
  • Bloomberg News is reporting that Real *won* the injunction.

    http://technews.netscape.com/news/0-1005-200-15262 36.html?tag=st.ne.ron.lthd.10 05-200-1526236 [netscape.com]

    Now, which is it?
  • Real's market capitalization is 11.7 billion on Wall Street. Basically they are just chucking a nickle at Streambox.
  • You will be able to use the Ripper.. as it converts files you already have saved on your hard drive. However, the VCR and the Ferret are still banned. The preliminary injunction against Streambox is in effect... chekc your local newswire... STreambox masked their press release to try and save their asses from this devastating blow.
  • http://www.realnetworks.com/company/pressroom/inde x.html Dated January 18, 2000 "RealNetworks Wins Preliminary Injunction in Landmark Case Protecting Copyright Holders in the Digital Age "
  • In a Standard article [thestandard.com] (found and cited by Yardley in post #58 [slashdot.org]) there is a quote from a content provider:

    "Streambox has been stealing our streams for quite some time," says Opher Mizrahi, CEO of MovieFlix.com. "It's costing us bandwidth and we don't get the benefit of the registration. They can link to our movies illegally, and there's no reason to come to the MovieFlix Web site," he adds.

    Streambox denies the theft of course, but what is the guy talking about? Deep linking? Or does the RA player provide them with some kind of statistics?

    I have not used these players, but I can't see why an RA user would not be able to do the same thing as with a Streambox player.

    Lars
    __
  • When I first started reading the description of their Streakbox Ripper product, I thought, "Cool, I will finally have a way of listening to RealAudio streams," since on the platform that I use (Amiga), the only RealAudio decoders we have are based on stolen(?) code that is years out-of-date. That's the problem with closed proprietary formats like RealAudio (and DVD too, as you Linux folks have learned) -- minority platforms have a snowball's chance in hell of getting support. In contrast, as long as there's a published standard to code to, the Amiga is often one of the first on the scene with an implementation, and even rises above all the rest in some cases (check out our web browsers!).

    So, as you can imagine, a tool that converts the unplayable RealAudio format to a playable one (e.g. MP3) seems like a useful thing to have.

    Then I saw "System Requirements: Windows 95, 98, or NT". I don't get it. Isn't Windoze the main supported platform by RealAudio? It seems like this would be the last platform that needs another RealAudio decoder, since Windoze already has an implementation from RealNetworks themselves.

    Now, I didn't really expect to see them selling an Amiga version, but wouldn't a program like this be most useful on whatever platforms that RealNetworks ignores?


    ---
  • Is there a link to anything about the order being lifted, or are we just taking your word for it?
  • The lawsuit info is here [streambox.com]
  • It's been pretty depressing lately, hearing about more and more lawsuits related to MP3 (and other formats) compression and encoding. I doubt anyone from Real Networks has actually explored the content at Streambox - right now I'm listening to MLK's "I Have A Dream" speech, in real audio, to listen to which I need RealPlayer.

    From the Streambox press release once RealNetworks filed the lawsuit:

    • "Their main complaint is that our Streambox Ripper product allows content owners to control file format, not RealNetworks. . But we believe that the larger picture of Real's whole tactic is about preventing migration of digital media files from RealMedia to other platforms, such as Microsoft's Windows Media"

    Oh, no! This is terrible! You mean, people may actually be able to listen to something without using RealPlayer? My God!

    I don't know about you, but I'll avoid using RealPlayer every chance I get. Don't you just *love* those automatic links it features? Hey, while I'm at it, why don't I install a copy of RealJukebox sans the privacy patch so those RealNetwork yahoos can track [slashdot.org] what I'm listening to. Look ma, no RealPlayer!

  • Between this and the judge that threw out the DVD injunction (the first one at least), it seems like our judicial system may finally, in fact, "get it"!
  • by Ratface ( 21117 ) on Tuesday January 18, 2000 @10:38PM (#1359939) Homepage Journal
    According to a message on the "Toolkit" page of the site.

    Expect the server to be Slashdotted into oblivion at about 11:00.01...

    ... and then watch out for all the messages from posters asking where the Linux versions are :-)
  • by Alik ( 81811 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2000 @03:41AM (#1359940)
    I think I see what's going on here. It looks like the judge issued an injunction against VCR and Ferret, but not against Ripper. Hence, Real decides to claim victory on the best-two-of-three principle, while Streambox claims victory because they can still sell Ripper. Notice that they only talked about "continuing development" on VCR and Ferret, not about releasing them.

    -shrug- It's a start, since this yanks away some of Real's content control.

    Alik
  • by Frac ( 27516 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2000 @01:14AM (#1359941)
    You might think I'm kidding. I shit you not. Go look up RNWK or Real's own press release.

    RealNetworks Wins Preliminary Injunction in Landmark Case Protecting Copyright Holders in the Digital Age

    Court Bars Streambox From Distributing or Marketing Streambox VCR And Streambox Ferret

    SEATTLE, Jan. 18 /PRNewswire/ -- RealNetworks Inc. (Nasdaq: RNWK - news), the recognized leader in media delivery on the Internet, said today it is pleased that the Honorable Marsha Pechman of the Western Circuit Court in Washington has granted RealNetworks' motion for a preliminary injunction barring Streambox from distributing products that illegally circumvent the copyright protection in RealAudio and RealVideo. Specifically, Streambox is enjoined from marketing and distributing the Streambox VCR, which records live streams against the wishes of copyright holders, and the Streambox Ferret, which interferes with the appearance and functionality of the RealPlayer®.

    ``We are very pleased that the court has upheld the basic principle that it is illegal to circumvent copy protection mechanisms in order to record streams against the wishes of copyright holders,'' said Alex Alben, vice president of Government Affairs, RealNetworks, Inc. ``RealNetworks brought this suit to protect the copyright of the content holders who trust RealNetworks' software and systems to not only provide a high quality user experience, but also to provide it in a format that is protected from duplication. We look forward to the opportunity to argue the remaining issues in court and feel confident that we will prevail on all counts at the end of the day.''

    ``I'm pleased by the Judge's ruling,'' said Cary Sherman, senior executive vice president and general counsel, Recording Industry Association of America, Inc. ``The RIAA fully supports RealNetworks' position in this case for the sake of our members and a legitimate marketplace. RealNetworks' technology is a success in large measure because it protects creators at the same time it givers consumers access to the music they want. Streambox's hacking tools rob creators of the very protection RealNetworks offers. That is precisely what the DMCA was intended to prevent.'' The RIAA members own 90% of legitimate sound recordings produced in the United States.

    ``Liquid Audio strongly supports RealNetworks' legal efforts to protect the millions of copyright holders around the world by keeping Internet music secure,'' said Gerry Kearby, chief executive officer of Liquid Audio, Inc. (Nasdaq: LQID - news). ``As pioneers in secure Internet music delivery, we firmly believe in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act as a key legal protection that will help ensure the development of a digital music economy.''

    ``The decision handed down today illustrates the importance of companies being able to adequately protect their intellectual property through technological means,'' said Keith Kupferschmid, Intellectual Property Counsel for the Software & Information Industry Association. ``Congress clearly respects the technological efforts being made by companies to protect their goods and services online and intended to protect these efforts when it passed the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Today's decision demonstrates that the courts' also understand importance of the circumvention protections provided in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.''

    The order today addresses two products marketed by Streambox: Streambox VCR, which circumvents RealNetworks' copyright protection measures to save streams to disk; and the Streambox Ferret, which interferes with the appearance and functionality of the RealPlayer® and redirects end-users of the RealPlayer search bar to Streambox's search site instead of the Snap!.com search site. A third product, the Streambox Ripper, which affects only files that have already been stored locally on a user's computer, was not included in the preliminary injunction. All three products were initially enjoined by a temporary restraining order entered on December 23, 1999.

    For more information: http://www.realnetworks.com/company/pressroom/stre ambox_litigation.html.

  • by Our Man In Redmond ( 63094 ) on Wednesday January 19, 2000 @03:56AM (#1359942)
    According to this Yahoo/CNet link, [cnet.com] Streambox can't distribute or market two of their three products for the duration of the trial. By looking at both press releases I managed to figure out that it's now OK for Streambox to distribute the Ripper, but not Ferret or VCR. It says as much in the Real press release, but it's buried way toward the bottom of the release and spun so it sounds like an OK thing.

    So it's not the exact opposite, exactly. Both sides are claiming victory in a big way, but you have to dig to find that out. So remember, kiddies, never get all of your news from one source!
    --
  • by Anonynous Coward ( 127724 ) on Tuesday January 18, 2000 @09:23PM (#1359943)
    Here's the press release in question:

    For Immediate Release

    January 18, 2000

    Landmark Decision
    Favors Streambox
    Judge's decision rules in favor of Streambox to continue sale and distribution of its most popular product, Streambox Ripper.

    Decision allows consumers and content owners choice
    in streaming media formats.

    SEATTLE - Based on the ruling by U.S. District Court in Seattle today, Streambox, Inc. (http://www.streambox.com), a start-up with leading streaming technologies for audio and video files on the Internet, may now continue selling its most popular software product, Streambox Ripper. This decision, made by the Honorable Marsha Pechman, affirmed the right of consumers and content owners to convert RealNetworks streaming media into their format of preference. Ripper enables consumers and content providers to convert RealNetworks files into Windows Media, MP3 and WAV formats.

    Today's ruling repeals a restraining order filed by RealNetworks (RNWK), which alleged that Ripper caused irreparable harm to RealNetworks.

    "This is a big win, not just for Streambox, but for the entire Internet community," said Robert Hildeman, chief executive officer of Streambox. "Streambox feels that the Court made the right decision to allow consumers to be able to make their own choice on how streaming content is controlled by granting Streambox permission to sell and distribute Streambox Ripper. The Internet has always been about open systems, and we're proud to be a part of this landmark ruling."

    Streambox will continue sales of Streambox Ripper on its website in addition to continuing development of enjoined products (Streambox VCR and Ferret plug-in) that put the control of streaming content in the hands of copyright owners as well as consumers.

    "We will formally request RealNetworks to release the specifications on their copy switch, so we can include it into Streambox VCR," said Robert Hildeman. "Streambox strongly supports copyrighted content. We trust RealNetworks will come through and release this information so that all content owners can choose whether to turn the switch on or off. Previously, Real has chosen to keep this information proprietary."

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