Microsoft Cracking Down On Indian Retailers 427
slashthedot writes "Microsoft caught some Indian retailers selling pirated copies of Windows by sending in a dummy customer to ask for a copy of Windows to be installed on their PC. The dealers claim that they are promoting MS software in this way. One retailer said: 'Since we are are not charging anything extra for installing the software, it means that we are actually not trading in pirated software. For us this is just a sewa (selfless act) that we are offering to our customers. Besides, the pricing of their operating systems is way too high for the Indian markets.'"
If m$ is too pricey (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:If m$ is too pricey (Score:4, Insightful)
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Fixed that for you.
Just so we know who's really responsible for preventing reasonable competition.
Re:If m$ is too pricey (Score:5, Insightful)
It all depends on who they need interoperability with.
In the U.S., most businesses that run Microsoft do so after having paid for it. Microsoft maintains its monopoly largely through inertia. The market is already well-established and isn't growing much, so compatibility with everyone else becomes the primary reason for choosing one piece of software over another. In the U.S., the compatibility requirements are already set and basically aren't going to change much. People run pirated copies in the U.S. in order to maintain that compatibility.
But India is more like an emerging market than an established one. That means there's a lot of room for growth, and thus a lot of room for choice. The compatibility requirements aren't as firmly set as they are in the U.S. market because the ratio of existing players to future players is much smaller.
The end result is that in India, if vendors like the one in the article really did sell Windows instead of giving it away and also offered Linux as the free alternative, the market would almost certainly choose Linux over Windows, and "compatibility" would wind up meaning compatibility with Linux, not with Windows, because as the vendor noted in the article, Windows is simply too expensive for most people to afford over there. In other words, the price of compatibility with the U.S. market would be too high for the Indian market to bear, and the Indian market would thus go its separate way.
And Microsoft would, as a result, lose an entire market. If the majority of people in India ran Linux because the price of Windows is too high, new players in the market would at that point have no particular reason to choose Windows at that point even if it were made free, because the primary compelling reason people run Windows is for compatibility with others in the market (which includes support and other benefits of compatibility). In this scenario, Linux would have the primary compatibility/support edge as well as the price edge, so Windows would be completely uncompetitive in the market.
That scenario is the one that Microsoft fears the most. Very few of Microsoft's products can win on their merits, so the dominance of Windows and the compatibility requirements of the market are really the only things keeping Microsoft in their dominant position. A market in which Windows isn't the dominant operating system is a market that Microsoft will probably do poorly in.
The bottom line is that for the Indian market, Linux is a much stronger contender than it is in the U.S. market, and it's only because of the ability (if not legality) of vendors such as the one in the article to give away Windows that Windows can do well in that market.
Re:If m$ is too pricey (Score:4, Interesting)
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It is? Because games run on it so well?
Yes, Linux runs just about every game written for it extremely well and has emulators that will run some popular titles written for foreign systems decently.
Because it's so easy to install drivers for ATI and Nvidia video cards?
Actually this one really surprised me. I've been using Linux since '99 so am accustomed to configuring things by the command line but a friend of mine installed Kubuntu last month and was astonished how simple it was to switch to the nVidia driv
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Re:If m$ is too pricey (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:If m$ is too pricey (Score:5, Informative)
You are making up your own definition of what is/is not a monopoly. Please educate yourself. [usdoj.gov]
Re:If m$ is too pricey (Score:5, Informative)
If I search online, every game for Linux I see out there is dated. Games, like many other things are designed to grab and keep your attention for a short period of time. If they made games timeless (which I will argue is an impossibility) you'd never sell any games after that. It would be like creating an automobile that never breaks, and never stops running.
The truth of the matter is that 99% of all games produced today are produced around DirectX and Windows. Once you grab the attention of the masses through entertainment, you have their undivided attention for however long you want to hold it. It's a sad but true truth. Microsoft is tuned in to that truth. Heavily hedging to grab every corner and back alley of the entertainment business as they can before people stop grappling to the Microsoft "Bread and Butter".
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Unlikely. Anything from ID, and anything based on one of ID's engines.
And even with that, it's quite stupid to talk about software in brick and mortar stores. You aren't likely to find OpenOffice or Firefox in Wal-Mart stores either, but they're still two incredibly popular pieces of software. The software world is changing, and Linux has been at the forefro
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Since I stopped playing First Person Shooters in the year 1999 when I was completely bored with the genre no thanks to every derivative of Team Fortress, Quake and Unreal Tournament, any ID game created then or now is pretty much e
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With companies like Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft, the differences in platform are a lot more interesting, as the software that comes out for those platforms use the various technologies offered
Re:If m$ is too pricey (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Which games? (Score:4, Informative)
And All the emulators you've named will generally require piracy to be of any use. Linux needs more developers selling Linux compatible games.
Re:If m$ is too pricey (Score:5, Insightful)
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Unsettling as it may sound, there is obviously not (yet) enough demand. It is not their job to push an OS onto people. They are not in the business of creating new markets; they are meeting popular demand. Of course they are feeding the status quo - Linux is beside their point.
Would be nice, wouldn't it? (Score:5, Insightful)
If the customers could not afford Windows and had to go with something like Ubuntu, then more people would become familiar with Linux
This is going to happen, eventually, anyway. Microsoft has 90%+ of the workstation market. There's not many ways they can get money out of that market anymore.
Except by re-selling Windows to those same people. Again and again and again.
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Regardless of whether or not that is true, Microsoft certainly does not think so by their actions.
Re:Would be nice, wouldn't it? (Score:5, Interesting)
"Some guys are taking our software without paying for it."
"That helps us. Network effects and stuff."
"Great! So we'll tell everyone to just go ahead and make all the copies they like."
"No, dumbass. Then we get no money."
"Okay, what if we just don't say anything?"
"We're real popular, and people will figure out pretty quick that we don't do anything if they copy it, and we'll lose a ton of money."
"How about we quietly enjoy the piracy while making a big show of going after a few of them so people still have that tiny, little bit of fear to keep them honest?"
"Sounds good to me."
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"... six PC dealers in Gujarat received notices from Microsoft for selling pirated copies of Windows."
"Microsoft demanding a payment of 200,000 Rupee ($4,955) and a fine of 1,600,000 Rupee ($39,638) if the vendor continued to sell pirated copies of the OS."
"Microsoft conducted the raids
"... Microsoft India sees the raids as a firm, but loving hand; guiding the vendors to the world of IP
"Microsoft, though its own efforts in partnership with other
MS is on a tightrope (Score:3, Interesting)
a user moving from pirate windows to linux is a loss for MS (because it helps the mindshare of linux which in turn helps it into places that DO pay for the propietry software they use)
clamping down on piracy is obviously going to do both to some degree, which is more significant in a particular case is very hard to calculate.
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>Regardless of whether or not that is true, Microsoft certainly does not think so by their actions.
Actually, MS's actions, as opposed to their words, show the opposite. MS will fulminate about software piracy, but in most Third World countries takes little action to prevent it. They know that in the long run, retaining a monopoly on OS and Office software is more valuable. When a country starts to take off economically, as India, its business and
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Well... maybe not over there, but at least in places where the BSA will come in and kick your ass. Think Photoshop here - I haven't bought a copy, but if I ever use it professionally, I will, rather than just using a copy of the GIMP or some other 'equivalent'.
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Until I read this story, I had always assumed that MS understood this fact. Now I see that, as in so many other things, they were just lucky.
I doubt that there would even be a Microsoft monopoly today without the lock-in caused by over two decades of pirated copies of DOS and Windows* If they keep this act up, they're in for big trouble in the developing world.
Re:Would be nice, wouldn't it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's just say that Microsoft now believes that it can start harvesting the investment it made in the past by not hassling system builders in the Indian market. India now has a large technology industry, much of which is based on Microsoft software. Like the original poster said this almost certainly would not be the case if Microsoft had always been strict about licensing in India, but it is certainly the case now.
Besides, like executives in any publicly traded company Microsoft's executives are concerned about providing the growth in profits that will drive the stock price up. In Microsoft's case that means opening up new markets. India's technology sector is in a position to start paying for Windows, and Microsoft wants to make sure that Indians do exactly that.
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so basically, having;
1) a R&D dept that's better named search and steal
2) no vision, and
3) terrible track record (outside of shitty software as well)
is there any wonder why people rip off M$ at every opportunity they get?
joe six pack thinks
Re:If m$ is too pricey (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:If m$ is too pricey (Score:5, Interesting)
Linux is not considered a poor man's OS. It is just that most of the software here is pirated and available almost free, that people don't have the incentive to learn Linux, except the technically oriented people.
I've seen people buying high end systems (about 800$), from local dealers with pirated window xp, ms office and loads of cracked games, and 1000s of mp3s all free as part of the deal.
In big cities like Bangalore they have started cracking down on people selling pirated CDs.
Re:If m$ is too pricey (Score:5, Insightful)
It is. The poorer a society, the more it values products they otherwise could not buy. If you are not a professional, who can judge the value of a product by its quality, the price is the only distinction. So Windows is perceived like something that costs "hundreds of US Dollars!!" and Linux as nearly worthless, so if price is the only criterion, getting Windows for free (or for $% on a pirated CD) is a way better deal like Linux for free (or god forbid, $5 for a CD). Ten years ago, when the net was still in its infancy, I knew people who danced around when they after hours an hours of downloading with a 56k modem, managed to get photoshop & Co, because "it cost $2000". They surely wouldnt have danced around after downloading a free software like Gimp, even if they needed it only for cutting their photographs and changing brightness and contrasts. They also wouldn't have valued Photoshop or Windows so much if the $2000 was a spare change for them, but would have equally evaluated every product which comes into question for a given task.
>> "I mentioned that I use Linux and he was absolutely amazed and asked me why I would do that."
He was absolutely amazed because the GP deliberately used something that was "free" (aka worthless) instead of somethig that has a higher market value by several hundred of dollars, even when you can get the second one for free of the net. He most certainly did not know either windows or linux good enough to base his decision on product quality. He probably never tried Linux at all, because it was "so cheap" compared to windows.
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I'm sorry, but that's just silly. First, Microsoft is American, not British.
... I seriously doubt that Rajib is usi
Second
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Actually, this is a good thing (Score:5, Interesting)
When I was in Indonesia, a similar crackdown happend (by the government). The reaction by businesses was immediate and strong: develop roadmaps for migrating all possible systems to Linux.
Full-page advertisements were seen in major newspapers advertising open source migration services.
It was really interesting. Nearly every computerized business that I came in contact with asked me about Linux and how suited it would be for their work.
Yes, a lot of them will install Linux.
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They should have seen this coming. Microsoft always tracks down retailers offering unofficial copies of their software and even offers official copies or rewards to people who dob in such retailers.
If they wanted to avoid trouble with the law, they could have just installed Ubuntu. Yes, their customers might prefer Windows, but Ubuntu is the only legal option that they are free to install.
linux (Score:5, Insightful)
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Can't be, or you'd have a chair-shaped bruise on your forehead by now . . .
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Sad. (Score:4, Insightful)
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Plus I don't think anybody on slashdot would believe that putting Windows on somebody's computer is a "selfless act".
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Of course, I'm sure, like most PC repair shops, you don't offer any other OS solutions than Microsoft.
Actually (Score:2)
More than half my work these days is for Linux.
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I think it's appropriate for US companies to send jobs over to India and China for cheap labor and then find out that the cheap labor isn't going to buy their products, nor the Anericans whose jobs were offshored who are usually making much less.
The more they do it, the less customers they will have.
rd
Define Sad (Score:4, Insightful)
Indian Market - A place where Windows is priced too high to consider paying for, but where GNU/Linux is too (blank) to even consider installing at no cost at all.
Raid - Pretending to be a normal customer, asking for a free copy of Windows, then mailing a Cease & Desist letter a month later. Very similiar to sending dozens of men to jump out of a van, and seizing all software and hardware.
Boycott - When you declare that you will stop purchasing from a particular company. It is not important that you weren't buying from them in the first place, the point is to make a distraction and take the focus off yourself. Remember, in the news, it's not who is right or wrong, it's who can successfully portray themselves as the victim.
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They came swing in through the windows with cutlasses in their teeth did they?
The average person in India earns less in a year than you earn in a month and there is no way that they can afford to 'buy' a genuine copy of windows. In the west, we have got so used to the claptrap that surrounds overpricing cartelles that we have even adopted their propaganda (i.e. piracy). You can afford to pander to this extortion but someone else in India, Thailand, China etc. cannot. You are w
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And, yet, they can afford to buy the PC on which to run the pirated (suggest another fucking word, by the way, if you don't like that one - someone says "stolen" they get jumped, someone says "pirated" and an asshat like you chimes in [/parenthetical rant]) software? Times are tough all over, aren't they?
I've pirated software before and I'll do it again (l
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In order to maintain that there is damage (hence criminal infringement), these people have to be able to buy the software if said copy-service wasn't in place.
Since the average person over there can't call ma (like the college students) to get the money for the copy, how is this a loss for Microsoft? If there wasn't a copy-service set up to put windows
Re:Sad. no it isnt (Score:2)
I know the laws have been bent to treat "intellectual property" ( the term in itself is offensive to me ) as real property, but is see no harm in trading or giving it away.
I have heard the argument that it denies money to the copyright holder, but has anyone considered tha
Re:Sad. (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's see, I assume you are an american. You see, not everyone in the world makes the same as you americans do. Not all of us (myself included, I live in Argentina) can afford to spend 2 to 3 months salary on Windows. And microsoft doesn't help either. They have this flat-price policy, all over the world. You *may* begin to understand us, blatant pirates, the day Microsoft charged USD 6000 for a copy of Windows. But that isn't going to happen, as Microsoft even offers discounts to students, of course those discounts are available for USA only (and a few selected european countries).
The problem is their monopoly. Someone who tries to find any job nowadays is required to know Windows (let's not enter the Linux argument, please). Just take my word for it.
Microsoft tried to "help" the situation a little by releasing the "starter" editions: crippled versions of their software for less money. Personally, I see that as an insult. You see, I go to the movies every now and then. Last year I went to see "The Da Vinci Code", the same day it was released in my country (may 18). I paid $5 (that's 5 pesos, or USD 1,80) to watch the movie. It wasn't a pirated divx, it wasn't a crippled down, shorter, lower-quality version of the movie. It wasn't even a cheaper remake. It was the same movie that was released in the US one day later (movies are released on Thursdays in my country). It wasn't a crappy cinema either. It had air conditioning, a big screen, surround sound, nice seats, popcorn, coca cola, and everything else. So, how can the movie industry charge 1/5 to 1/10 what they charge in the US, and still profit, while Microsoft refuses to do so?
One time someone answered "because people would buy an imported copy of Windows and pay less for it". Yeah, right. I'd love to see an american with their brand-new cheap copy of Windows, in Spanish. Or some indic language even.
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Piracy of Windows is a crime against us all (Score:5, Interesting)
Given a choice of free of charge software, people usually always pick those they perceive to be the industry leaders. When they have to pay for that software (especially when the real income equivalent, i.e. hours of labor to pay for it, is high), they have to slow down and ask what they need.
Piracy thus reduces the effective size of the total market. People aren't forced to decide whether to pay for new copies of the software, so they pick what they think is the path of least resistance. Add cost, and these people are brought back into the market and have to choose.
When I worked at Microsoft, I used to say that we had to do something about piracy because, "Piracy is anticompetitive and it hurts our competitors even more than it hurts us." I got a wide range of reactions from that statement. If there was no piracy of Windows, Microsoft *might* make a little more money. But I guarantee you, there would be a *lot* more Linux use out there too. Heck, there might even be more users of OS X...
I personally think we all need to do what we can to discourage software piracy. I think it is the greatest obstacle out there to the total dominance of open source software.
A solid legal argument (Score:5, Funny)
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can we get the hahaha tag back now? (Score:3, Insightful)
Going further, while MS would like to enforce their monopoly, it is clear that the world's population is clearly not in alignment with their wishes. This would seem to indicate that either MS is wrong or the laws are wrong. Pick whichever you want, but the dichotomy is clear.
Personally, I hope that MS loses this one, not just because I wish them ill fortune (and I do) but because clearly in this situation they are pricing themselves out of the market. That business strategy is coming back to bite them in the ass, as it should, and will.
This is good for Linux (Score:3, Insightful)
Otherwise, MS gets adopted wholly, until the market is 100% MS. Enforcing a MS lock-in there, also enforces it in other places of the world.
The way to freedom will be paved by MS tightening its Iron Grip in this area. It will cause short-term incovenienc, but it is good in the long run.
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I have to disagree with your analysis though. No matter what you think of Windows, it is a better operating system than I could write for the amount of effort I have to put forth to pay for a license to use it. It actually provides a great deal of functionality f
great... (Score:5, Funny)
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OH NO, look what you've done to my mind!
Shaggy: Look like we solved another software piracy mystery, Scoobs!
Scooby: Ruff! Yeah!
Indian computer retailer: And I would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for you meddling kids!
Bill Gates: To the Mystery machine! I'll invite some scooby snacks!
huh? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Good. (Score:4, Insightful)
- RG>
Re:Good. (Score:5, Insightful)
If you don't like Microsoft, fine - but saying that the laws are stupid because they want to charge for their work seems a little bit silly.
Another selfless act (Score:5, Funny)
Mother Theresa, eat your heart out.
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That's Mother Teresa [wikipedia.org]. I don't know if it extends to that level, but we do teach our children to share, don't we? I doubt any parent or teacher has ever added or will add a "but only if it doesn't incur financial, civil or criminal penalties" qualifier.
The reason we teach our children to share is that we know it invites good will. If you extend that notion and add to it the f
This has got to be the funniest of all things... (Score:2, Interesting)
Seriously though MS should understand the very practical, priceless message the traders are giving them for free - Not many people in India could a) buy a branded PC and b) Buy a locally built one AND pay for the OS - Last I checked, XP Home was Rs. 4500 which is about 1/3rd the price of the full PC.
For one it is nearly impossible for Microsoft to stop the piracy in countries like India and China - even though India has laws to deal with it, there is little there
Haha (Score:2, Interesting)
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This is why I've never been much opposed to "copy protection" for software. If people were required to pay for Microsoft products the prices would come down.
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They are promoting Microsoft's products.. and, frankly, I wish they'd stop it.
This is why I've never been much opposed to "copy protection" for software. If people were required to pay for Microsoft products the prices would come down.
No. If people were required to pay for Microsoft, Adobe, etc. products, more people would use open source software.
Maybe not everyone, but it would drastically increase the reachable market.
This is going to be good and bad for Linux. Bad in the sense that people are going to confuse software that is available free of charge with piracy, and good in the sense that the truth will come out and Microsoft software will be seen as overpriced.
Please do go on (Score:2)
The more Microsoft tightens control the sale of Windows in the third world, the more they'll promote the use and development of Free alternatives.
Not that they don't have a right to do it, of course, since anyone has the right to demand that their products not be pirated. It's just that in this case it will turn out to be quite negative for them.
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This way retailers know how it is going to be now and in the future.
I'm confused (Score:5, Funny)
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The customer will not switch (and get used) to open software thus MS has more time to adjust their prices to India's market and retain their income.
To customer:
Does not have to ask an aquintence to burn the CD.
Retailer Backlash: No M$ Purchases for Quarter. (Score:5, Interesting)
The crackdown is not nearly as interesting as the vendor reaction: a general strike against M$. They have a guild and 350 shops have boycotted a M$ training session and pledged to purchase nothing from M$ for the next quarter.
This is a real culture clash and M$ is going to lose. Compare it to Gandhi's Salt March to Dandi [wikipedia.org] and you can see where this is going. If M$'s $3 "education pack" is not good enough and they won't quit making alternate software difficult by vendor and driver manipulation, the people of the world will simply take what they want. M$ can no more stop this than the British Empire could keep people from taking salt from the sea.
I'd rather they discovered free software. It would be better for them and they could more easily implement things like DVD playing and advanced video codecs than people endumbered by dumb laws like the DMCA. Using M$ leaves the user open to M$ violation down, powers the botnet and props up M$'s awefull non free formats.
Ghandi and pirated software (Score:2)
They have a guild and 350 shops
These people were not buying "M$" products to begin with, so please explain to us simple people how this "backslash" means "M$" is going to lose?
Compare it to Gandhi's Salt March to Dandi
That's ridiculous and insulting to all Indians, I'm sure.
I'd rather they discovered free software.
If "free software" means people like you taking advantage of things like these to exaggerate an
Of course they were buying software! (Score:3, Insightful)
These people were not buying "M$" products to begin with, so please explain to us simple people how this "backslash" means "M$" is going to lose?
If you had read the article, you would have seen that M$ thinks the vendors are important. If things work there as they do here, they are right.
M$ is nothing without the support network everyone else provides. These 350 shops are their mainstay, for both their sales volume and their recommendations and fixes. Even here in the US, where people have enough mo
yeah (Score:5, Funny)
International Pricing (Score:3, Insightful)
They want a cost-of-living price break for software, but we US programmers don't get a cost-of-living break when our jobs are sent to India due to our high cost-of-living. They want a double standard. (And programmers there are usually well off, often able to afford a maid.)
Microsoft Cracking Down On Indian Retailers (Score:2, Funny)
How?
(Thanks, I'll be here all week.)
so typical of middle class america (Score:2)
pathetic people, this kind of thing doesn't hurt bill gates, it destroys the local legitimate companys.
The perfect name for an Indian Linux distro.. (Score:3, Funny)
Of course it's "selfless." (Score:4, Insightful)
Reminds me of a bartender giving free drinks to his friends. "No big deal to be generous with someone else's booze," his ex-boss said. (Paraphrased from an old Law & Order episode.)
I'm certainly no MS fanboy, but I hope those retailers get nailed for this.
Interesting ethical situations here (Score:3, Interesting)
There are some interesting ethical situations here.
While the 'selfless' act helps the customer directly, it robs the producer of what is being 'selflessly' given away, whether it is Microsoft, or a small software company. The people doing the distributing may be gaining 'karma' points on one side but are losing them on the other side of the transaction.
The excuse of not being able to afford the 'real' product because of discrepancies in income between the United States and other countries has a lot of bearing here. In today's globalized world you need to keep up with current tech in order to succeed. If you can't afford it, then copying it can almost be rationalized.
The rationalization falls apart when you reach the point that you want your own products protected on the global market. It is hard to demand IP protection when you are not doing a good job of protecting other people's products.
To add another level of complexity to things, consider the fact that a lot of software businesses in the United States are creating service and research centers in places like India. While I trust that the businesses are buying legitimate copies of Windows and other software, are they keeping track of what their employees and subcontractors are doing? While these people may be making a lot more than the average citizen of India, the temptation of getting something 'free' might outweigh the ethically correct action of paying for it. (Of course there may be reduced cost programs that get hardware with legitimate software to this subgroup. But being in the United States, I don't hear of them.)
Ideally, everybody should be held to the same ethical standards, with allowances for all types of income discrepancies. Perhaps software, movies, music and other IP products should be priced based on personal income by country, with limits on what you can own based on what you earn. If you want more, you need to earn more, relative to the personal income ranges of your country.
It is something to think about that will continue to be a problem until all people world wide have similar income ranges.
Re:I dislike MS (Score:5, Funny)
Which Slashdot do you read?
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Bet you didn't check his website. Scared the shit out of me.
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I hadn't, but... OK, I'll bite - what, you don't like fedora?
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Re:I dislike MS (Score:4, Funny)
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On the flip side, not every Linux app is compatible with Windows. I have 3 Linux machines and one Windows machine. Incompatibility with Windows malware is the driving force here along with price. The Windows machine is for Windows programs. The Linux machines are for web, media, and learning. Nero incompatibility with Linux is not an issue since making, burning,
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Funny isn't it how no one is prepared to pay almost a year's income for an OS? Frankly I think Microsoft should wise up and start charging $40K per copy of Vista in the US; 35,000 pounds in the UK; and 300 dollars in India. Hey I know, perhaps they can introduce a region control scheme like they tried to do with DVDs, to make sure everyone coughs up the zone-specific amount. Yep, that will work...
Or are you implying that India should do away
Re:Paying for Windows (Score:3, Interesting)
Since I have a collection of old hardware I still use, I have problems with the one copy per machine license model. OSS has a much better model.
This is why my Wife has the single XP machine with MS office & Turbo Tax. It's also why I retired Windows 98 on a PIII machine and installed Ubuntu along with my Windows 2K laptop and a home built P4 white box (Media Center with TV tuner card and DVD burner)
The Windows license is clear, install on one machine only and d