Pentagon Creating A Database Of Students 1014
needacoolnickname writes "The Washington Post is reporting that the Pentagon is working with a marketing firm to create a database of students ages 16 through college to help them identify recruits. A little chuckle from the Pentagon in the article: '...anyone can opt out of the system by providing detailed personal information that will be kept in a separate suppression file. That file will be matched with the full database regularly to ensure that those who do not wish to be contacted are not, according to the Pentagon.'"
Article Content (Score:5, Informative)
Pentagon Creating Student Database
Recruiting Tool For Military Raises Privacy Concerns
By Jonathan Krim
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 23, 2005; A01
The Defense Department began working yesterday with a private marketing firm to create a database of high school students ages 16 to 18 and all college students to help the military identify potential recruits in a time of dwindling enlistment in some branches.
The program is provoking a furor among privacy advocates. The new database will include personal information including birth dates, Social Security numbers, e-mail addresses, grade-point averages, ethnicity and what subjects the students are studying.
The data will be managed by BeNow Inc. of Wakefield, Mass., one of many marketing firms that use computers to analyze large amounts of data to target potential customers based on their personal profiles and habits.
"The purpose of the system . . . is to provide a single central facility within the Department of Defense to compile, process and distribute files of individuals who meet age and minimum school requirements for military service," according to the official notice of the program.
Privacy advocates said the plan appeared to be an effort to circumvent laws that restrict the government's right to collect or hold citizen information by turning to private firms to do the work.
Some information on high school students already is given to military recruiters in a separate program under provisions of the 2002 No Child Left Behind Act. Recruiters have been using the information to contact students at home, angering some parents and school districts around the country.
School systems that fail to provide that information risk losing federal funds, although individual parents or students can withhold information that would be transferred to the military by their districts. John Moriarty, president of the PTA at Walter Johnson High School in Bethesda, said the issue has "generated a great deal of angst" among many parents participating in an e-mail discussion group.
Under the new system, additional data will be collected from commercial data brokers, state drivers' license records and other sources, including information already held by the military.
"Using multiple sources allows the compilation of a more complete list of eligible candidates to join the military," according to written statements provided by Pentagon spokeswoman Lt. Col. Ellen Krenke in response to questions. "This program is important because it helps bolster the effectiveness of all the services' recruiting and retention efforts."
The Pentagon's statements added that anyone can "opt out" of the system by providing detailed personal information that will be kept in a separate "suppression file." That file will be matched with the full database regularly to ensure that those who do not wish to be contacted are not, according to the Pentagon.
But privacy advocates said using database marketers for military recruitment is inappropriate.
"We support the U.S. armed forces, and understand that DoD faces serious challenges in recruiting for the military," a coalition of privacy groups wrote to the Pentagon after notice of the program was published in the Federal Register a month ago. "But . . . the collection of this information is not consistent with the Privacy Act, which was passed by Congress to reduce the government's collection of personal information on Americans."
Chris Jay Hoofnagle, West Coast director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, called the system "an audacious plan to target-market kids, as young as 16, for military solicitation."
He added that collecting Social Security numbers was not only unnecessary but posed a needless risk of identity fraud. Theft of Social Security numbers and other personal in
WARNING: The WP Will Sue Over Copyright... (Score:2)
Caused these fellas a world of hurt:
One step beyond.. (Score:5, Informative)
A little-noticed clause in the 2002 No Child Left Behind Act requires high schools to hand over students' names, addresses and telephone numbers to military recruiters as a condition of receiving federal aid.
I guess this would fill in the gaps and really make sure 'no child is left behind'.
I wonder would this lead to more or less stories like this:
In one well-publicized case in Colorado, Army recruiters were tape-recorded encouraging a student journalist posing as a high school dropout to create a diploma from a non-existent school to comply with military enlistment requirements. They also were heard giving him advice on how to disguise a chronic "marijuana problem" and how to pass a mandatory drug test.
Re:One step beyond.. (Score:5, Insightful)
The fake diploma thing is downright dishonest, but I've had employers tell me before a drug test "just drink a whole lot of gatorade a few days before and take a b12 tablet the day of the test". It's not like the kid was a crackhead, and these folks figured, probably rightly, that the army might clean him up.
Before shipping him off to get him killed for the commander-in-chief's personal vendetta of course.
By the way, it'd lead to less stories. They'll be able to screen out those pesky journalists. Word to the wise student: take journalism.
The Army would "clean him up"? (Score:5, Insightful)
Is that the same Army whose recruiters attempted to commit two clear ethical violations just in the process of getting him in the door? You're right, sounds like a good influence.
I've had three pretty close friends enlist in the services -- two in the Navy, one in the Marines. The levels of alcohol and drug use they described were frighteningly high. That's anecdotal, okay -- but these were straight arrows going in, and they weren't anywhere near clean while they were in uniform. One at least was more Boy Scout than was maybe good for him before he joined. Two of them have returned to those selves after leaving, but the third is a hard drinking, hard smoking, heavily-tattooed and generally scary fellah now. Wants to talk about how cynical he is about "how things work," mostly.
(This story is basically "The services are desperate to recruit, and they got this 'in' in Bush's education bill to do it with." Why are they desperate to recruit? Because W., having talked so much about the armed forces not being ready for confict during the 2000 campaign, has spent his term in office making those predictions come true on his own watch. Everything the guy claimed about Clinton decimating the military's ability to fight, he's done himself in spades.)
Re:The Army would "clean him up"? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The Army would "clean him up"? (Score:5, Insightful)
PS: also the one that don't go to college or the military. I think this has more to do with being on one's own for the first time, and learning one's limitations. A cross section of all people age 18-22 is going to show a hefty portion of them partying more than one reasonably should.
Re:One step beyond.. (Score:5, Interesting)
I was lucky enough to have an honest recruiter for the Navy warn me up front about what I'd be facing if I put the uniform on. However, once I reached boot camp I heard plenty of horror stories; lots of recruiters who lied about conditions, guys whose recruiters took the ASVAB (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery) for them, faked drug tests by recruiters, recruiters who lied on the paperwork about recruits' educational background, etc.
Why was this going on? Well, mostly because the Navy would severely punish sailors who did not meet their recruiting quota. When you have some guy with 15 years in uniform who was struggling just to support his family (on food stamps no less!), staring at the possibility of the loss of his pension because he's about to lose a stripe (which puts him below the minimum rank to be allowed to re-enlist to reach 20 years), he'll do what he has to to avoid it. When you have guys who are facing the possibility of time in the brig if they don't meet quota, they'll do what they have to to avoid it. And forget ever making chief petty officer if you get a letter of reprimand because you missed one monthly quota!
Because the risks to a career were so high, recruiting duty at the time was considered as unpaid hazardous duty by many. Sailors used to volunteer for back to back sea duty tours just to avoid it.
Re:One step beyond.. (Score:3, Funny)
I always thought the Navy was upfront about the life threatening work you would be doing.
You know. Navy. Accelerate Your Life.
Re:One step beyond.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Article Content (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Article Content (Score:4, Insightful)
If the terrorists extract another drop of blood for 20 years they have already won if you put stock in the most idiotic statement since 9/11 "They Hate Us For Our Freedom" - GWB Fall 2001. If this is REALLY what our administration believes why turn away from that chartet to adopt domestic policies to erode personal liberty, detain people (even US citizens) indefinitely without charge or trial, prop up undemocratic governments in Egypt and Lebanon for fear of "unfriendly" Islamist leaders that would likely win a free election?
Re:Not Meeting Recruiting Goals = Desperation (Score:3, Insightful)
We have enough people and equipment in the military to do lots of missions like humanitarian and peacekeeping. We can still destroy any other conventional army in the world. We just don't have the people (or the stomach) to do an imperial occupation. Call it what you will, that's the mission now.
You are expendable pawns. (Score:5, Insightful)
to create a database of students ages 16 through college to help them identify recruits.
It will start similar to "Student A has a rich family, pass. Ahh.. Student B is lower-middle class, offer Student B a scholarship attached to a term in the Reserves." and end with "Draft Student B."
Re:You are expendable pawns. (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course, the extended amount of information they gather is worrying...
Re:You are expendable pawns. (Score:5, Interesting)
What a bunch of crap. The military can be a great way out of poverty. That doesn't mean joining the military will make you rich, but it:
oh yeah, there is also that little added benefit of a trained military force being the only thing between you being able to post self-righteous crap like this and you being forced to obey the whims of some dictator.
And if you think Bush is a dictator, it really shows how ignorant and coddled you are in this country, protected by the troops which you disdain.
Re:You are expendable pawns. (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, whatever you say about the benefits to poor people for joining the military, is it really fair that during wartime our most disadvantaged citizens are the ones who get killed? That's not a very nice option... "Be poor, or risk your life."
Re:You are expendable pawns. (Score:5, Insightful)
Terrible.
We do want patriotic people in the armed forces. But we need people who are bright, can understand local politics and react intelligently to the nasty tactical issues urban combat involves.
Re:You are expendable pawns. (Score:3, Insightful)
> local politics and react intelligently to the nasty tactical issues urban combat involves.
Who in his right mind would moderate this insightful??? The military wants people who can take orders WITHOUT thinking. Officers maybe, but not grunts.
jfs
Re:You are expendable pawns. (Score:4, Insightful)
Every grunt involved in clearing a house in Iraq needs to be perceptive, creative, and analytical to do that job well. More than just reacting intelligently, the warfighter needs to be innovative, because repetition leads to getting killed.
But what would you know about it?
Re:You are expendable pawns. (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe somebody who has walked the walk, and it's obvious to be that you don't have a fucking clue who grunts are, what we do, or why we would take offense at a pansy-ass like you using the term. Taking orders without thinking maybe fine for soviet style penal-infantry, or Argentinian style shoot'em in the foot so they don't run military, but if you think that you can your personal ass out into mortal combat without thinking, feel free to demonstrate t
Re:You are expendable pawns. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You are expendable pawns. (Score:3, Insightful)
the minute they said they believed an invisible man in the sky that manipulated world events?
Re:You are expendable pawns. (Score:3, Insightful)
It's okay to ridicule people who stubbornly believe something that is wrong. In this case, yes, it's also different from what I believe, since I construct my beliefs based on evidence and not nonsense.
Are you suggesting that belief in the force of gravity and belief in invisible pink unicorns are both deserving of the same amount of respect?
OK... I'll bite (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:OK... I'll bite (Score:5, Insightful)
> serve the country that has provided them with the most freedom and liberty of ANY government in the
> history of man
-nod- This is one of the areas of damage done by the Bush administration that I think doesn't get nearly
enough attention. With the current state of affairs, there is arguably no way for a conscientious American
to serve their country through the military.
When the military is being misused and abused by the civilian leadership in ways that demonstrably
hurt this country and make us less safe, nevermind needlessly sacrificing the soldiers themselves,
what choices is a patriotic American left with in order to serve their country in this way? All I've been
able to come up with is to vote, be politically active, and volunteer for and donate to good organizations
like the Red Cross, the ACLU, BlackBoxVoting.org and Operation Truth.
Vote Libertarian, or it won't really change.... (Score:3, Insightful)
If the L.P. could garner enough voter support to be viable, their political attitudes and agenda would finally break the cycle. But with the "Republican" vs. "Democrat" status-quo we're working under today - no matter who gets elected, indiividual rights and freedom gets further trampled on. Under the Clinton administration, you had acts like the D.M.
Re:OK... I'll bite (Score:3, Insightful)
Freedom and liberty are NOT "gifts" from the government, but inalienable rights bestowed by the creator! Governments do NOT serve the interests of man, but their own self-interests! True freedom is defended from government and paid for with the blood of patriots and tyrants!
Love freedom,
Re:You are expendable pawns. (Score:4, Insightful)
If all the young people who wanted this war would join up today, there'd be more than enough boots on the ground. You'd help the soldiers who are stuck there today, undermanned, live.
There is no excuse. You think the invasion and occupation is worth dying for? You think Bush and Rice and Cheney didn't lie their asses off?
JOIN. That's what war is about, sacrifice.
When are you sacrificing yourself?
If you don't think the occupation and asset seizure is worth your career, your education, your reproductive organ's attachment to your nether regions, or your very life -- then you have no right to support this war, demand its continuation, or demand that OTHERS SERVE IN YOUR PLACE.
Join, and help a private contractor making a thousand dollars per diem in the Green Zone see another day.
JOIN. Or oppose the war. You have no other options, Young Republicans.
Operation Yellow Elephant [blogs.com] Help a Young Republican Join Today!
Re:You are expendable pawns. (Score:3, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:You are expendable pawns. (Score:3, Informative)
Doh, I did miss the opportunity to point out there was an ulterior motive for George H.W. Bush enlisting when he did, and pulling strings to get a fighter in the Pacfic though he was way under age for it.
Right before he enlisted the Bush family, in particular his dad, George W.'s grandad, Prescott Bush was embroiled in a scandal. Prescott was a leading officer of Union Banking in New York, and most think he actually ran it day to day fo
the draft (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:the draft (Score:5, Funny)
Am I the only one thinking that the "suppression file" is also aliased as "the first to be drafted file"
evil evil evil..
Re:the draft (Score:3, Informative)
Re:the draft (Score:3, Informative)
Given the kind of trouble they'd have with keeping draftees motivated, and the kind of skills they need, I doubt the military would want a draft.
It's easy to train somebody to be a WWII-level grunt. But most jobs in a modern military require a lot of intelligence, and it would be very easy for somebody to feign incompetence.
Re:the draft (Score:5, Funny)
From what I know about the past, it seems to me that ignorance and intolerance are doing just fine in modern day America...
There is not going to be a draft (Score:4, Insightful)
Committing to a draft would actually hurt the military more than help. A dramatic increase in personnel would strain existing logistical resources and money allotted to the department of defense. There would have to be a extreme increase in military funding before any drafting would occur.
Re:There is not going to be a draft (Score:3, Interesting)
However, I have no interest in risking even my little toe for these current punk-ass "world police" bullshit sand/oil wars.
Re:the draft (Score:5, Informative)
Nah. The Chiken-Little's shouting "the draft is coming" are (naturally) unfamiliar with how the military is currently structured. The entire training system is geared towards willing, self-motivated recruits who are there of their own volition. Anyone can, at any time in the first 6 months of their enlistment, say "this isn't working for me" and get out with a simple Entry Level Separation. An ELS doesn't show up as a "black mark" on your record anywhere.
But moving to a draft system, suddenly everyone is there at gunpoint. Most draftees will be recalcitrant, unmotivated dregs suitable for nothing more complicated than cannon fodder infantry. This may have been OK during the Bad Old Days, but even being an infantryman these days requires a fair bit of technical competency. Furthermore, the real shortage in the military is in recruiting people for complex technical jobs rather than straight-up combat arms. So essentially they'd end up with a whole raft of uncooperative bedding-delousing specialists just to get a handfull of tactical intelligence analysts. The military doesn't want the draft. They want more volunteers.
Re:the draft (Score:4, Interesting)
YEA. WHAT HE SAID. And if there aren't enough volunteers, we need to figure out how to "motivate" people to volunteer event if they dont want to
There is already a well documented trend of the DOD using fine print, trickery and out right coercion to prevent people already in the military and reserves from escaping when their contracted enlistment period is up. For all practical purposes many people already in the military and reserves ARE being drafted because they can't get out when they were supposed to.
Fact is the Army and Marines, their reserves and gaurds ARE missing their recruitment goals by a big margin and are now missing them every month and the popularity of the war in Iraq is plummeting. Eventually the DOD is going to run out of meat for the grinder. The Army and Marines the two services where the bulk of the sitting ducks being sent to Iraq come from. The Navy and Air Force are doing OK mostly because people who want to join the military know thats the best place to be to avoid ending up on the streets in Iraq.
Believe it or not most kids are smart enough to not want to end up in in an ugly urban guerilla war with no end in sight. A war where they would seldom see who is trying to kill them, where most of the natives hate them, and where lots of their peers are coming home in body bags, with burns or without limbs.
The all volunteer army is GREAT as long as you are never in a protracted shooting war, especially one based on lies and with no clear goal or end game. It simply wont work if Iraq turns in to another Vietnam. You simply wont get the volunteers needed to fight a dirty, messy war with no glory. You can get volunteers to race in on the tanks and declare victory in a week. You wont get volunteers to patrol Iraqi streets filled with an enemy you seldom see who are sniping at you and using IED's to blow your legs off.
Dont think it really matters if the military is structured for "volunteers" now. If people stop "volunteering" the DOD is screwed. Its either a full up draft with the political consequence to the people responsible(i.e. the Bush adminstration and the Republicans), back door drafts where you coerce and trick people in to the military and dont let them out which is basicly what we have now(the histroical term is Shanghai'ing people), or you cut and run on places like Iraq, and it probably collapses in to more of a smoldering hole in the ground than it already is and you just wasted half a trillion dollars and tens of thousands of dead and wounded on a failure.
Lucky for little George that he is a lame duck, because at this point it doesn't much matter how bad a job he does, we are stuck with him until 2008 unless someone acquires the balls to impeach him, which he most certainly deserves.
Re:the draft (Score:3, Interesting)
The U.S. is for all intents and purposes already doing it too, though they are using mercenaries under the misnomer of contractor. Blackwater is one company in particular which is supplying thousands of highly paid mercenaries, most of whom are ex special forces, trained by Uncle Sam at great expense, and at the first opportunity quit the Army to command 6 figure salaries a
Re:the draft (Score:3, Informative)
Much of the military is still structured for fighting a war with the Soviet Union. In many cases this is because of Congressional porkbarrel-pr
New World Order (Score:5, Insightful)
Just when I think our society can't get any more Orwellian [wikipedia.org], we see this:
It's a hat-trick of privacy violation.
This is just the tip of the iceberg, too...soon this will be expanded to all americans eligible for military service...then all americans, period. Refusing to submit your info for this database will automatically label you as a dissident, although what with the new national IDs coming out, you'll be in that database whether you like it or not.
Welcome to the New World Order.
(P.S.: Here's a link [epic.org] to the various privacy advocates' letter to the Pentagon referenced in the article.)
It sounds like you disagree with this. (Score:5, Funny)
It sounds like you are not happy with this.
Failure to be happy is treason.
In Soviet Amerika, our new Overlords welcome you.
Re:New World Order (Score:3, Interesting)
This has been going on for decades. Its called the Selective Service.
From the EPIC letter:
Re:Overreact much? (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, readin the article, this new Pentagon plan has nothing to do with that. This plan is merely collating information that they already have. The GPA information was part of previous legislation tied to no child left behind. That I think is a privacy invasion and that that particular of NCLB shou
Not Fair (Score:5, Funny)
Ummm... (Score:2)
but really... don't temp them.
Re:Not Fair (Score:2)
Best of luck in your new career.
Remember, its like a gym, but they pay you!
Well, Duh. (Score:4, Interesting)
What do you do? Recruit, recruit, recruit like there's no tomorrow. Use every tool you can get your hands on. Raise the "financial incentives" of joining up--even if you were to double a grunt's pay, they'd still be waaaay cheaper than hiring another mercenary. Make lists. Get aggressive. Be persistent. Get every person you can lay your hands on.
One of the following things will most likely happen in the next few years:
The Pentagon would much rather have a healthy, full-strength, all-volunteer military force than an expensive, byzantine network of "independent contractors" doing more and more grunt work outside the scope of both military and civil law. To this end, they're gonna do everything in their power to meet their recruitment needs--and frankly, creating a database of students is pretty freakin' innocuous compared to some of the other recruiting shenanigans that have been going down lately...
Re: Well, Duh. (Score:4, Funny)
> Of course the Pentagon is going to do this kind of thing. They are in desperate need of recruits.
I hear that the "Cannonfodder Wanted" ads didn't produce the desired results, nor the "It's sweet and proper to die for one's Cheny" ads either.
Re:Well, Duh. (Score:3, Interesting)
#1 Offers an opportunity for the administration to funnel federal monies to private contracting "security" firms, allowing financial incentives for a great many civilians who are not bound by the same rules of military conduct that the soldiers are. It also allows for legal weapons testing. Is is any wonder why the current vice president was the former CEO of the largest conracting agency involved in the war effort?
#5 Even if we claim victory, or achieve victory, or some
Re:Well, Duh. (Score:3, Interesting)
I agree with you--I think #1 and #4 are our most likely outcomes. Hell, we've been working on the hardened, remote, permanent bases since the get-go.
This war is about many things--freedom, spreading democracy, oil, security, terrorism
You forgot (Score:3, Funny)
2. We'll reinstate the draft in one form or another;
3. We'll claim victory, pull our troops out, and hope that the Iraqis can sort it out themselves;
4. We'll claim victory, ensconce a substantial number of troops in hardened, remotely-located permanent bases, and hope that the Iraqis can sort it out themselves;
5. We'll get a massive surge in recruitment and will be able to meet our military needs with a full-st
Re:Well, Duh. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not applying my opinion to the rest of America. I'm deferring to The Gallup Organization [gallup.com].
I'll readily grant that polls aren't perfect--I used to work for a pollster, and I'm well aware of the pitfalls involved in this kind of thing--but I invite you to direct me towards a better metric of American popular opinion. I also invite y
In Soviet America... (sorry, couldn't resist) (Score:4, Funny)
Re:In Soviet America... (sorry, couldn't resist) (Score:2)
I want to Opt-Out! (Score:2, Funny)
Address: 5586 Ti..."Hey, wait a minute...!"
ALL YOUR KIDS (Score:2, Funny)
are belong to us.
suppression file? (Score:2)
Surprised it didn't happen sooner (Score:2)
How many times should they talk with the kid about which branch of the service they'd be interested in?
In other words (Score:5, Interesting)
At my high school, which was in a relatively wealthy county, there were almost never military recruiters, and very few students went into the military. Those that did would do so via the rather prestigious military colleges (U.S. Naval Academy, etc.).
Meanwhile, I have relatives that live in upstate New York. Their school district is in a relatively poor section of the country, and they have recruiters almost permanently stationed in the high schools, preying on the students. At this point, even if parents complain, the school can do nothing about the recruiters' presence due to the No Child Left Behind act.
Re:In other words (Score:5, Interesting)
Is there a downside to all of these benefits? Well certainly. The purpose of the military, of course, is to fight wars. But if these kids study in school and can do well enough on the ASVAB [wikipedia.org] test, they can get into the Air Force or the Navy, where their lives will be in much less immediate peril and where they can learn extremely useful technical skills.
As Americans, we're spoiled -- and it's easy to forget what actual poverty is like. In many countries, the poorest kids are the ones who cannot go to school because they can't afford it or because they must work to support their families. In America, most of the poor kids are excused from doing well in school because they're from disfunctional families, and that is called poverty. Do they have a TV? Of course. Telephone? Yes. Cable? Very often. Satellite? Big-screen? Designer clothes? You'd be surprised.
Ah, but do they have a part-time job and carry books home in hopes of maybe moving on to something better one day? Some do. But many don't. Military recruiters recognize the more limited future of these kids and that they have something to offer them. Military recruitment is usually a win/win proposition. Let's not forget how much service personnel GET from the US government. I'm one of them and I can attest to it.
RP
Re:In other words (Score:5, Funny)
"Are you interested in joining? The benefits are terrific. The trick is not to get killed. That's really the key to the benefit program." - Vince Ricardo (The In-Laws [imdb.com])
Second time today I've quoted this movie on slashdot. He's actually referring to joining the CIA but the sentiment is the same.
Re:In other words (Score:3, Insightful)
You say "Military recruiters recognize the more limited future
No Child Left Behind (Score:4, Informative)
Also - there are ways for high school parents and students to "opt out" of the recruiting campaign. If you're a high school student or parent of such a student, you might find these links helpful:
Re:In other words (Score:5, Informative)
There's a reason why recruiters focus on poorer areas in their recruiting drives. The military offers a steady job for four years with additional compensation for people who go to college afterwards. It also offers the possibility of making one's career in the military. When you compare that to the alternative - working in low-wage blue collar jobs, when you're working at all - people in poor areas find the military to be an attractive option. In more affluent areas, recruitment isn't as worthwhile, because most kids have the resources already available to them to take a different (safer, easier, higher-paying) career path by going to college immediately.
This isn't some insidious plot to enlist underprivileged kids. It's an appropriate allocation of recruitment resources to the areas of the country where recruitment will be the most successful. In other words, this is the military being efficient.
Any other time, people would be complaining about how the military wastes so much money - but in this case, where the military is managing its resources well, they're accused of being nefarious. I guess they just can't win.
Re:In other words (Score:5, Informative)
First off, I'm not a recruiter though I am in the Air Force and have been so for 10 years. Recruiters don't "prey" on poor kids, but yes they do find many potential recruites in that population. When compared to their options getting sent to Iraq to fight has a much higher life expectancy than staying home and getting involved to crime and drugs.
Actually recruiters rather go after the middle class kids since most of your lower class have to many educational problems and past criminal behaivor. Most are turned away as unexceptable as they can't pass minimum standards. Turns out the Army doesn't want to deal with them either and could easily fill their quotas plus some if they where willing to snatch up every poor 17-20 year old that applied.
The military has always been a stepping stone to move out of dead end social/economic situation. In my case it was either go on unemployment/welfare or go back and live with the parents, neither were viable options in my mind, so instead I joined the Air Force. Out of the deal I've gotten two college degrees and enough certifications/licenses in aviation (pilot and mechanic) as well as SCUBA to choke a very hungry donkey. By the time I'm done, 10 more years to go, I'll have a retirement check, a Masters degree, and my transport pilot rating. Not to bad of a deal at all.
Opportunities are what you make of them. The military is a very good opportunity for the poor if they can even get it in the first place. The rich will always avoid the military unless it has something they want. It wouldn't be too hard though to get them to join. Just bring back the death tax and make it 75% for those that don't serve (on the kids not the parents) and make public service (military, police, fire, etc ala Heinland) a requirement to hold public office. The rich kids would be flooding the recruiters then.
your infosec on file (Score:5, Interesting)
For anyone who wonders why this would be necessary, let me give an example.
CapitalOne got it into their heads that they should send me a credit card application every week. After spending an hour trying to track down a telephone number that would let me speak with a CSR without having an account number, I asked them to stop mailing me. The CSR rep replied that the system takes 12 to 16 weeks to fully honor a request to not receive offers! Which is pretty funny, because I asked the rep "so if I sign up for the credit card today, you can take my name off the list, but if I just want you to stop sending me junk that someone can use to steal my identity, it takes 4 months?!?!" He didn't have a good answer.
Anyways, as soon as I move to a new address three months later, I started receiving two offers from CapitalOne every week! They obvious match solely on name and address.
I just don't feel like going through the same bollux again to get my address off the list. Sheesh.
Re:your infosec on file (Score:3, Insightful)
you can call : 1-888-5-OPTOUT to get out of this, there is a website, they give it to you in the phone number, i did it 3 months ago, i barely get any now (tehy have to work you out of the system, some places have purchased your info from the credit bureaus like 3-4 months ago)
http://www.ftc.gov/privacy/protect.htm [ftc.gov]
Re:your infosec on file (Score:3, Informative)
Bonuses (Score:2)
Opt out (Score:5, Insightful)
dom
Re:Opt out (Score:3)
Re:Opt out (Score:4, Insightful)
While logically true, too many take advantage of the logic. Many of the fields can be deleted, for example, everything but SSN (a unique identifier) and a 'not interested' flag. Since they are provided SSN to enter data in the database, they will have enough to know that the record in question shouldn't go in, even with duplicates.
Sounds like selective service (Score:2)
Why not just modify the existing system instead of creating an expensive, possibly error prone new system that'll draw the ire of privacy advocates?
Draft needed for upcoming Iran invasion. (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed, Iran is not like Iraq. Iraq was a very splintered social and religious community, while Iran is far more coherent. Iran is well armed. Considering how poorly the Americans have fared in Iraq, Iran is out of the question for anyone with half a mind. Unfortunately, such people are not at the helm of the United States.
I'm praying for all the American youth who may get mislead into dying in some desert battlefields in third-world nations.
Remember! (Score:5, Funny)
Do your part!
Would you like to know more?
My how things have changed (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course, now all my kids got Social Security numbers at birth. If you don't get them one, you can't use them as a deduction...!
Every Army Recruiter Already Has A Database (Score:3, Insightful)
It's called (or was called ca 1993 - 1997) a "P-card" (Prospect card)
A P-card is what that poor bastard uses when he calls you or your slacker kid every freakin' night of the week, trying to get the two "sits" (appointments) his staion commander told him he had to get before he could go home for the night.
P-card databases are built from a variety of automated and non-automated sources. The armed forces have bought mailing lists targeting the male 18-24 year group for years. Recruiters also use high school year books, phone books, mailing lists provided by schools, and the ASVAB test you took to get out of PE for the day, and other students to build their P-card database.
The Penatagon building another database is redundant as any recruiter will tell you. Most of the leads it will generate will likely be useless, but recuriters will be forced to refine them, adding more work to an already never-ending day on the bag.
I imagine many army recruiters are wishing they were in Iraq right now instead of cold-calling people with little to no interest in volunteering to serve in the military.
At least in Iraq they get to shoot back at the bastards.
This is not new . (Score:5, Insightful)
Plastic Army Men
----------------
Remember the great deals on plastic Army men that you could get on the back covers of comic books? This was back in the early '70's. My friend and his brother weren't satisified with their "one per customer" offer, so they made up a bunch of fake siblings with silly names and sent orders it their name.
About 10 years later, the brothers were getting a ton of military recruiting junk mail. As were their fake siblings...
Riflery Team
------------
I was a member of the Riflery team in high school, circa 1981. I lived in a pretty liberal place at the time.
At on practice, I looked down at the bucket of spent
I asked the teacher-coach. He looked at me funny, and said: "The Army pays for the bullets".
It took me a second to absorb this, and I asked what the Army was getting back in return. The teacher-coach said: "Your target scores".
Now, my parents hadn't agreed to that, and neither did I. I quit that day, not wanting to be "special need" drafted as a sniper.
jh
Re:This is not new . (Score:3, Informative)
They weren't interested. I guarantee it. Collection of scores is probably just typical government aggregation of pointless data. It sounds to me like there's some failure to understand how the DCM/CMP [shongum.org](Director of Civilian Marksmanship/Civilian Marksmanship Program) works. It was created in 1908 by an act of congress to encourage rifle proficiency among an increasingly urban national pop
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
The most feared sentence in the English Language (Score:4, Funny)
This line causes more people to run in fear than any weapon of mass destruction.
Impressive... (Score:5, Insightful)
But that was deep past in the totalitarian communist era. Today it would be illegal to keep such data for any reason. What's exactly going on in the USA??? Is it a precursor to conscription?
Perhaps if they didn't treat recruits like (Score:4, Interesting)
Forget US schools. Mexico is a better option. (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously, these are kids who aren't interested in the Service, and they're only signing up because they're being sweet talked into it like a crack whore lookin' for a fix. Soon after they're shipped off for BT do they realize what a mistake they've made.
So, where else is there a pool of semi-muscular blobs that can be turned into killing machines? There are two... a) the prison system and b) illegal immigrants.
Illegal immigrants want to become citizens. They keep saying when they come over that they'll just work for a few years and go back home. That never happens.
Why not convince these people to actually do something meaningful for a change and stop debasing wages? That's right! These pobrecitos who are picking our oranges and driving our trucks can make MUCH better money in the E3-E6 paygrade... WORLDS better than back in the coloñias or the barrio.
Let these immigrants prove their worth! In exchange for their service they get citizenship and GI eligibility.
Mexico benefits as well as the US here. The military fulfills its quotas and can stop harassing the preppy white kids in schools. Mexico's population declines to a level its government can support. Everybody wins (oh except the kids that won't join up... you get to fight for white collar jobs that haven't left for India).
Opt-out == Opt-in (Score:3, Interesting)
Alternatives? (Score:3, Insightful)
Any organization which advertises attempts to reach the target most narrowly suited to the message being generated (in this case, preferable to military service). So what is scary about this? What is wrong about this?
Are you arguing that the military shouldn't recruit? If so, are you further arguing that the military shouldn't exist?
If the military should exist and should recruit, what is the problem with the military using the same techniques that every private organization from CocaCola to MoveON uses?
Draconian (Score:5, Insightful)
I went from a 2.4 GPA in highschool to operating a nucleap power plant in two years. When I did finally go to college I was at the top of my class. I credit the Navy for gettign me where I am today.
Re:Draconian (Score:5, Funny)
Homer Simpson? I love you man!
Existing petitions to block this... (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a link to more information:
http://www.themmob.com/lmca/about.html [themmob.com]
Re:Interview (Score:5, Funny)
Candidate: None. I'm gay. A real faggot.
Officer: Nice try...your file says you are a confirmed hetero. Go pick up your uniform, maggot.
Other countries (Score:3, Funny)
In Canada (and many other countries) it would go something like this:
Officer: How many girlfriends have you had?
Candidate: None. I'm gay. A real faggot.
Officer: So what. Go pick up your uniform, maggot.
It's a shame the way things have worked out. Done right, you get the right people volunteering, and you have a dedicated corps of people who put their asses on the line for their country. Not because they were ordered to, but because they want to. This is not something to sneer at. Ever.
I consi
You're confusing "country" with "political party". (Score:5, Insightful)
No. You're wrong. There is a REASON that this war is BECOMING unpopular.
And tracking kids so the government can pressure them into fighting such a war is the PROBLEM.
No. Look up "Boston Tea Party". Our country was founded upon the belief in certain Rights.
Only recently. Before that, it was because of our vast natural resources and distance from the established armies of the other nations.
You might want to look at the Founding Fathers' views on a standing military.
That sounds a bit too much like "the ends justify the means".
Here's the flaw in that claim.
... but they still don't allow women to vote.
Because some people joined the military and fought and died for Freedom does not mean that everyone who dies in the military furthers Freedom.
Check out Kuwait. We "Freed" them from Iraqi invasion
This "Freedom" thing is a bit tricky, no?
So people who didn't vote for Bush are exempt from this database?
And now you're into "blaming the victim".
Why not just make it illegal for those companies to collect that information on me?
That can mean anything from filing a patent on your new, effective, cold fusion generator to filming your neighbor in the shower.
This is not about "defense of the country". Iraq was no threat to the USofA.
Getting a sample box of Tide == tracking kids to target them for recruitment
Right.
No one "gives" anyone else "Freedom".
And tracking kids is the OPPOSITE of Freedom.
That is correct. But this isn't about forcing them to sign. This is about tracking them to specifically target them.
You use that word a lot, but I don't think you understand what it means.
Okay, but shouldn't I also thank the people who funded the school system and paid the teachers' salaries?
You are, of course, aware tha
Re:Perspective of a US Marine (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Perspective of a US Marine (Score:5, Insightful)
>freedoms is because of the blood spilt by hundreds of thousands of
>Americans who paid the price for you.
I've never believed this sentiment to be anything other than a
self-serving lie spoken by bullies. Given that there is no economic
model that I'm aware of that posits freedom in terms of price, it's
equally probable that we enjoy our freedoms *in spite of* the wars the
government has engaged in.
Re:Why are most military personel middle class? (Score:3, Insightful)
College costs big money. It's not an easy thing for most lower-middle and midde-middle income families to take on the kind of debt that is required to obtain a college degree.
The reality is the United States has a draft today.
It's just an economic draft.
Kids who can afford to pay for college do so. Those who can't afford to pay for it and still w