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Sun and Kodak Settle Out of Court 201
prostoalex writes "The patent dispute between Eastman Kodak and Sun Microsystems in regards to three patents that EK claimed Sun was violating with Java, came to an end. Thursday afternoon Associated Press announced the companies settled out of court with terms of the deal unclear yet. Before Eastman Kodak was looking for $1.06 billion in damages."
$92M (Score:5, Informative)
Re:$92M (Score:2)
Ohhh!! Me me me!!!
Wait, did you mean who gets sued next, or who gets to drum up a lot of hype for a doomed patent lawsuit, then shake down Sun Micro for $92M in an out-of-court settlement?
--
How about cash? [slashdot.org]
Re:$92M (Score:5, Interesting)
Getting a large quantity of Sun stock at the current very low price might be a useful move for Kodak. After all, the only time "buy low, sell high" works is when something is thought to be not very valuable.
Getting about a quarter of Sun's cash on hand might be resisted a lot harder.
--dave
A Sign of Things to Come (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:A Sign of Things to Come (Score:1, Insightful)
Not really. Seeing as how Kodak will now have to turn around and pay off Honeywell.
Re:A Sign of Things to Come (Score:5, Funny)
You could even start a The Dying Company Files Worthless IP Lawsuits mutual fund.
Re:A Sign of Things to Come (Score:2, Informative)
"Microsoft has software called
Sun, Kodak... (Score:2, Funny)
How about the settlement consisted of 20 million copies of Photoshop Elements?
HOW Much?! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:HOW Much?! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:HOW Much?! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:HOW Much?! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:HOW Much?! (Score:2)
So the trade off in image capture media quality is file size vs. file size.
Certainly it would take more than a 4 - 5 megapixel (current top of the line for the consumer market?) digital image to compete with 70mm film whos target is a movie theater screen. Or how about larger images which you find on billboards, buss stop ads., etc., in the advertising world where its not uncommon to find image files above 30 megabytes, even above 100 megabytes, etc.
whats common in both me
Re:HOW Much?! (Score:2)
Re:HOW Much?! (Score:2, Informative)
If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me.
I imagine he's using some very high-end equipment, though.
Re:HOW Much?! (Score:2)
Kodak really only has two choices.
A. Continue doing film, in 10 years when the
Re:HOW Much?! (Score:2, Informative)
While the market for film is declining its still has a very strong base.
Re:HOW Much?! (Score:5, Funny)
A dying company goes on a binge of IP litigation. Why does that sound so familiar?
Re:HOW Much?! (Score:2)
The other [news.com.au] recent [timesonline.co.uk] news [harrowtimes.co.uk] would seem to indicate that.
Re:HOW Much?! (Score:2, Informative)
Kodak has lost more than that by infringing one patent. They were the loser in the largest patent lawsuit the world has ever seen, Polaroid v Kodak.
Polaroid had a patent on instant film development, yet they waited to file their lawsuit until Kodak had built new factories to build instant cameras, and actually had the product in stores. That way, when the lawsuit finally happened, Kodak was out not only $billion + in damages, but also more billions of in
Polaroid (Score:2)
Re:Polaroid (Score:2)
Yeah, you'd be surprised how many lawyers own Harleys these days! B-)
Licensing vs. lawsuits (Score:2)
With a big name like Kodak marketing their technology, Polaroid would've made massive amounts of money by licensing the patents for royalty fees.
Instead, Polaroid just sued Kodak and prevented them from selling any instant cameras, relegating Polaroid to a small-time niche-market player.
Aieee! (Score:2)
How could Sun settle? IANAL but it seemed like they would easily win an appeal (in a courthouse anywhere but Rochester).
And how could the editors post this story without more details about the settlement? What a tease. Now I have to know.
Re:Aieee! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Aieee! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Aieee! (Score:2)
Remember, the AT&T vs. BSD agreement was never completely disclosed. Just because it's a public company doesn't mean that every piece of relevant information about the operations of the company needs to be disclosed to the shareholders.
Re:Aieee! (Score:2)
Re:Aieee! (Score:2)
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
Re:Aieee! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Aieee! (Score:2, Interesting)
Sun settled because it believes the majority of its key customers have mission-critical needs and can't tolerate uncertainty at all (the people who buy the sun hardware, software and services).
This is why Kodak could get away with this blatant extortionism.
Re:Aieee! (Score:3, Interesting)
$92 million isn't a lot to avoid a several-year-long ludicrous court case like the one between SCO and IBM.
In an ideal world... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:In an ideal world... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:In an ideal world... (Score:2, Informative)
How much does Sun make -because- of patents? Not just in royalties and lawsuits but in implied value?
Something tells me Sun is happy to have patents stay around.
Re:In an ideal world... (Score:2)
It is not the little wins like this that they are after. They aren't even actually fighting. They are setting up a club with heavy fees that is designed to ensure that open source projects and even small businesses are forced to close their doors. They all win in the end.
This is bad. (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sure other languages do as well...
Re:This is bad. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:This is bad. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is bad. (Score:3, Insightful)
That could be a very clever attack. When mono was first proposed, naysayers assaulted it: "Don't waste your time! Microsoft will wait until your project works, then reveal patents that make your implementation illegal!". The nascent Mono team responded that Microsoft had promised not to enforce patents against them.
But now, if Kodak has patents that Mono infringes, they might go shut it down without prodding from Microsoft.
(Just another sign of why software patents are bad in g
Re:This is bad. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:This is bad. (Score:2)
Earlier than that. I was writing p-System code in mid-83 and it definitely wasn't version 1. According to this article [threedee.com], the date of version 1.3 of the p-System is August 77.
Re:This is bad. (Score:2)
Re:This is bad. (Score:2)
Re:This is bad. (Score:2)
Consequently, I spent several years doing assembler coding on the various Apple ]['s. Still have one somewhere. I still remember the simplicity of the 6502
Programs . . . that help other programs (Score:2)
Wasn't that a Streisand song some years back?
Re:This is bad. (Score:2)
Sounds like SUBROUTINE
Like in prehistoric FORTRAN.
Now if you need something that doesn't have to evaluate its arguments, there's Lisp.
This "skilled in the art" thing. Is it supposed to mean something? There's a lot of Computer Science that was independently invented by a lot of people before there was anything like a Computer Science curriculum.
Sun and Kodak Settle for $92 Million (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2
Re:Sun and Kodak Settle for $92 Million (Score:2, Informative)
Invention vs Production (Score:4, Insightful)
Invent? (Score:2)
Irony (Score:2)
Re:Irony (Score:2)
Now I'm wondering... (Score:5, Insightful)
Is Apple next? They have their own Java implementation, don't they? IBM and Ximian/Novell, perhaps, too? IBM's VM could be infringing, and so could Mono's VM... and that's just sticking in Java-ish territory. Who knows what else they can hit with such a broad patent.
Re:Now I'm wondering... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Now I'm wondering... (Score:2)
Re:Now I'm wondering... (Score:2)
I don't think you have to worry about IBM -- nobody wants to get in a patent-war with Big Blue. 'Cept maybe SCO, but they're nutters.
Re:Now I'm wondering... (Score:2, Funny)
I would actually bet (but don't know) that these licensing arrangements are NOT specifically from these patents. All three of those players (MS, HP, IBM) have very good reason to have cross-licensing agreements with Kodak - Sun just hasn't been in an overlapping market with Kodak to justify such a position. Most large companies in o
Re:Now I'm wondering... (Score:2)
Java is just an emulator for a processor that never actually existed....
Thus ALL emulators violate this patent - and depending on how you read it, all software that calls other software, including shell scripts, binaries, operating systems which call the BIOS, any BIOS that calls the BIOS on another board - eg SCSI controller, about the only things that don't infringe are self-contained firmware that can't have
Re:Now I'm wondering... (Score:2)
Neither. You're thinking of trademarks. And oversimplifying, but that's not really important at the moment.
Re:Now I'm wondering... (Score:2)
So much for appeals... (Score:2)
Thats it then (Score:5, Insightful)
According to the Groklaw [groklaw.net] discussion, the jury trial came from a town where Kodak is one of the two main employers. One can only suspect that this may have swayed the jury.
This is definitely a case for PubPat [pubpat.org] to tackle. There has got to be significant prior art on these patents.
To anyone thinking of looking, prior art must fulfil the following requirements (IANAL):
Paul.
Re:Thats it then (Score:5, Informative)
That's exactly my thinking. The one filed in 1993 actually describes the virtual machine that manages objects capable of working with different data structures but exposing the same API, which is pretty much any virtual machine out there, and can be extended to the operating system as a whole.
Kodak's case is strong, since the patents do include the existing OS/VM implementations and describe improvements over existing technologies. Remember: the technology doesn't have to be new to be patented, it just has to extend the technology in a way that's not obvious at the time of filing. That's what I got from my hundreds-dollars-per-hour patent briefing that my employed had for its R&D people.
Re:Thats it then (Score:2)
I wonder if Kodak will sue Larry wall or Guido. That would be interesting to see.
Re:Thats it then (Score:2)
Not really - you just have to get a bunch of affadavits from developers willing to say that they decided not to buy your product because there was a free implementation (using your patented technology without a valid license) available. The way courts are ruling on things nowadays, that would probably be enough to argue that you "lost" that sale somehow.
Re:Thats it then (Score:3, Interesting)
Copyrights, OTOH, have no novelty requirement. Independent creation of a work is not infringing, though fairly rare.
Re:Thats it then (Score:2)
Come on people, wheres all the great art you were talking about in the previous thread?
Re:Thats it then (Score:2)
I'm not sure exactly what the other patents cover, but another posted mentioned that CORBA might be 'infringing'. I
Time to ask Public Patent Foundation to look (Score:4, Interesting)
Non-Compete (Score:4, Funny)
Okay, not really. Just a bad joke.
Re:Non-Compete (Score:2)
The evil Sun... (Score:2, Informative)
This will probably lend credence to the patent claim, so not only does Sun get Kodak off their backs, they probably also get a few lawsuits nicely directed at some of their competitors.. MS with
'Heres 92 mil, by the way - you may wanna check out THESE particular companies as well.'
Re:The evil Sun... (Score:2, Insightful)
1) The lawsuit was filed in a town where Kodak was one of the major employers, so the jury would almost certainly be biased.
2) Because of #1, there was a decent chance that Sun would have lost and been forced to pay the $1bn (which is considerably more than 92 million).
3) If sun faught it, lost, appealed, etc, the cost to them in legal fees and PR would have likely been more than the 92 million that they pain.
summary? They took the (relatively) cheap opt
Not only is Kodak one of the major employers (Score:2)
Both companies are loved by the locals because of the benefit they have to the community.
Brave, brave Sir Sun turned and boldly ran away (Score:2)
I'd show ya, but goats.cx is no longer online.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
This has become a sad world to live in (Score:5, Interesting)
Cheers... wait, no, no cheers today...
Adolfo
PS. I am guilty of abusing the use of run on sentences.
Re:This has become a sad world to live in (Score:3, Informative)
It's far, far worse than that... Kodak didn't even create the idea... merely bought it from a company that went belly up years ago...
Re:This has become a sad world to live in (Score:2)
Umm.. every program ever written infringes (Score:3, Interesting)
I've never written a program that didn't at least include some basic system libraries, or language libraries. Every program must by necessity "ask for help" from other programs, whether that be the OS or a library. If this is really what this patent covers, they have successfully patented programming.
Re:Umm.. every program ever written infringes (Score:3, Interesting)
Why? (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft wants all UNIX users corralled up behind a single company so they can then simply drive that company into the ground, instead of having to play 'whack-a-mole' with Linux distributors.
Sun are taking advantage of this by profiting when they can, but they must realise this is a business strategy that is assuming 'eventual defeat' - Sun are clearly not able to cut a path as an independent technology company, and feel that becoming the 'New Apple to Microsoft' - e.g. expect a Microsoft Virtual PC port with a bundled XP/Longhorn Licence to Solaris x86 soon - is the best way to ensure survival in the short to medium term.
Clearly, they have no long-term strategy, unless it is to simply cede their server market to Windows NT and fade quietly into oblivion like SCO.
If the USA doesn't move beyond Windows on the desktop, there are a lot of other countries who will - Software patents as implemented by the US government, are overwhelmingly stupid, and even if every US Linux distributor faces massive taxes, you will have to deal with the fact that Linux is as prevalent, and as easily developed in Europe or India, or Japan, as it is in the US.
Linux is not going out like this, and this whole 'intellectual property lawsuit' business is just making me, as a programmer, computer user and an educated, open minded person, really angry.
If companies like Redhat are making money out of selling something they also give away for free, this is largely a result of the groundswell of dissatisfaction with the crap we have had to pay so much money for up till now -
Make a good product using ethical business practices and provide clear benefits to a supporting community of users, with contracts based on mutual trust, not meaningless stockmarket numbers and the threat of litigation, and people will be interested in buying it, using it and developing it.
When did 'The network is the computer' get replaced by 'The Microsoft(R) Network (c) Microsoft Corporation 2004 is the computer (pat. pending)'?
Re:Why? (Score:2)
This is totally gh3y! (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't even considered them the experts in their supposed field (taking pictures), Fuji film pwns their asses big time (for me).
Still less software!
I think patent applicants MUST submit a valid implementation of their "novel ideas" to provide a limit of the scope of just how "ingenious" they are.
Come on, the industry is really making a big fuss out of their own ingeniuity (stupidity more like!)
Let's all move to China and India and let these fuck turds sue each other out of business while we just happily develop and develop!
Hell, even Iraq is better!
Re:This is totally gh3y! (Score:2)
Obviously "working model of your device" is meaningless to patents now though...
IBM is next (Score:3, Informative)
Now what is worse is that a whole bunch of FOSS supporting firms can be pulled to court with this nonsense.
So is Java lost for the US until 2007? (the pattents were filed in 1987 I believe)
Re:IBM is next (Score:2)
When large companies sue each other, people shrug and say, "well, that's big business for ya.." When large companies sue small companies, especially for bogus reasons, people turn an ear and many get angry. When large companies sue individuals or mom-and-pop businesses or non-profit groups, you've got yourself a major media frenzy. Right now, this software patent garbage is restrained by the fact
The odds of Kodak winning (Score:2, Insightful)
riddle me this batman (Score:3, Insightful)
If that's true then Sun has paid the price for us...making the ultimate sacrifice.
Re:riddle me this batman (Score:2)
Kodak better get smart. (Score:2)
What to do... (Score:2, Informative)
What we need is more of the people right here to step up and do it themselves. How?
Read this:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/157 0 184224
Or apply here:
This is unfortunate.... (Score:2)
GJC
Is Java now patent encumbered? (Score:2, Interesting)
They settled, but I would guess that the settlement terms did not include "hey Sun, you can write open source versions of our IP"...
Let Kodak know what you think (Score:2, Interesting)
As a software developer, I was dismayed to hear about Kodak's decision to sue Sun based upon some bogus software patients. Most software developers think these kinds of patents are causing great harm to the American software developer. Any new feature (even obvious ideas) added to a piece of code could potentially be infringing on someone's intentionally vague software patient. I just read the 3 patents which Kodak has accused Sun of violating.
two companies who lost their business... (Score:2)
Who cares.
Kodak lost the imaging business because they failed to latch onto digital early enough, believing film would prevail.
Sun lost the server business because they failed to latch onto Free / Open Source Software early enough, believing SunOS would prevail.
It's like two dying hippos head-butting each other. Fun to watch, but mostly irrelevant.
Re:The fix was in (Score:3, Interesting)
Eh? do you know something I don't?
I know we all hate Microsoft, but blaming them for this is just hurting your credibility.
Or do you blame Microsoft when it rains in the weekend too?
Re:The fix was in (Score:3, Funny)
I dunno, $75 billion profit buys a hell of a lot of weather control R&D...
Good point. (Score:2)
There's a secondary systemic problem that exacerbates the problems of soft