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Testing The Right To Resell Downloaded Music

Posted by timothy on Wed Sep 03, 2003 02:54 PM
from the no-eula-no-stop dept.
David Gerard writes "A man has bought a song from Apple iTunes and has put it up for sale on eBay. "I only spent $0.99 on it but I bought the song just as legally as I would a CD, so I should be able to sell it used just as legally, right?" Does the Right of First Sale still exist?" The seller says he's seeking attention, but not to himself. Rather, he calls this "an experiment in property rights in the digital age," and promises not to keep a copy once the sale is done.
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  • by mao che minh (611166) * on Wednesday September 03 2003, @02:55PM (#6862032)
    (Last Journal: Sunday April 11 2004, @07:41PM)
    Does the Right of First Sale Still Exist?

    I just posted an eBay auction [ebay.com] for a song I bought from the iTunes music store [applemusic.com]. It should be interesting to see how this works out. I only spent $0.99 on it but I bought the song just as legally as I would a CD, so I should be able to sell it used just as legally right?

    [Update 09-03-2003 10:08 AM] Right now I've come up with a couple ways that the transfer of ownership could take place. One is to call up Apple and ask them to do it for me, which would be an interesting call. The other way would be to give my account to the winning bidder, which doesn't seem like a bid deal considering that I've only purchased one song. Still, I'd have to make sure that my credit card info was completely disassociated with the account. Or I could just create a new account and repurchase the song on that account.

    [Update 09-03-2003 11:25 AM] I'd like to respond to a few points made by people: 1. It's true that I'm seeking attention, but not for me personally. This is an experiment in property rights in the digital age, something that's gotten surprisingly little attention. 2. I've read the iTunes agreements and found nothing denying transferability. This isn't any more a commercial venture than selling CDs at the local music store, I'm not incorporated or even DBA. Furthermore, in case anyone thinks this is a cheap way to make a buck I will be donating all proceeds to the EFF [eff.org]. 3. When the song is successfully transferred, I will not be keeping a copy of the song. If I don't own it I shouldn't have a copy.

    [Update 09-03-2003 11:25 AM] A very excellent comment below by Piggly Wiggly asks if I will convert the format for delivery. My answer right now is "no" because I don't want to cloud the issue of the sale by changing the format. Also, I'd like to thank all the people posting supportive comments who realize that this is about more than a $0.99 song being over-valued on eBay.

  • Apple usage policy by peterprior (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @02:55PM
  • Sounds reasonable (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Brahmastra (685988) on Wednesday September 03 2003, @02:56PM (#6862047)
    This is hilarious. I'd like to see how the RIAA spins this. After all, they haven't ever whined about used CDs being sold.
    • Re:Sounds reasonable (Score:5, Informative)

      by tgd (2822) on Wednesday September 03 2003, @02:59PM (#6862093)
      Um, they've complained since day one about used CD stores. Numerous attempts were made to shut them down, and to make them illegal. Sure, it was ten plus years ago when most of /. was riding bigwheels in their parents driveways, but they most certainly DID do precisely that.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Sounds reasonable by Cyno (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:04PM
        • Re:Sounds reasonable (Score:5, Informative)

          by Brahmastra (685988) on Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:08PM (#6862220)
          Actually here's an older slashdot story about record companies demanding royalties for used CD sales. They have always been SOBs and always will be: http://slashdot.org/articles/02/06/14/2111220.shtm l?tid=141
          [ Parent ]
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Huh? by autopr0n (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @06:12PM
          • Re:Huh? by TPFH (Score:1) Thursday September 04 2003, @09:43PM
        • Re:Sounds reasonable by Cyno (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @05:10PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Sounds reasonable by SB5 (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:10PM
      • Re:Sounds reasonable by Enry (Score:3) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:13PM
      • which proves that by dh003i (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:45PM
      • Re:Sounds reasonable by MicroBerto (Score:3) Wednesday September 03 2003, @04:23PM
      • I remember that.... by SvnLyrBrto (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @10:02PM
      • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Sounds reasonable by NiceGeek (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:00PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Sounds reasonable by Lord_Dweomer (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @11:13PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • license by dollargonzo (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @02:57PM
    • Re:license by Smallpond (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:22PM
      • Re:license by Pig Hogger (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @08:01PM
    • I call (hopefully) BS by wurp (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:55PM
    • Re:license by Eunuchswear (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:14PM
    • Re:license by UserGoogol (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:38PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Son of a bitch. (Score:5, Funny)

    by BoomerSooner (308737) on Wednesday September 03 2003, @02:57PM (#6862068)
    (http://www.soonersports.com/ | Last Journal: Thursday March 13 2003, @03:39PM)
    I sold that song yesterday for $0.25. If I'd only known that I could post it to slashdot.

    Slashdot, News for Nerds and eBay listings.
  • How much will he get for it? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by jdray (645332) on Wednesday September 03 2003, @02:57PM (#6862070)
    (http://somethingstirring.blogspot.com/ | Last Journal: Saturday December 01, @09:19PM)
    Having seen Palm Pilots that went for $199 in stores go for $289 on e-Bay, it'll be interesting to see how high the price for a $0.99 song goes.

    And, no, I haven't RTFA yet, I'm going to do that now...
  • DRM Restriction (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Broadband (602443) on Wednesday September 03 2003, @02:58PM (#6862074)
    Isn't it assumed that the DRM included in iTunes would disallow something like this even though it should be completely within the right of the purchaser/owner? I think this is another major problem with DRM technologies. They assume that the purchaser will desire to keep the media indefinately rather then sell it. Then again with the music industry already attacking used CD sales from cutting into their profit I highly doubt they'd want it any other way. What's better then forcing new copies of songs/albums to be purchased rather then continue the ability for it to exchange hands via a 3rd party at a possibly lower rate then the Music Companies would be willing to discount it to?
    • Re:DRM Restriction by Xaoswolf (Score:3) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:06PM
      • Re:DRM Restriction (Score:5, Insightful)

        by fahrvergnugen (228539) <fahrv@@@hotmail...com> on Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:13PM (#6862280)
        (http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/)
        That's only true if those terms and conditions don't violate existing law. My landlord can't, for example, enforce a clause in the lease saying that part of my deposit is automatically forfeit for carpet cleaning when I move out, even if the carpet is spotless.

        She can TRY if she wants, and the clause can be there, but it's an illegal clause and thus is unenforcable, and I can take her to court in this state and get my money back.

        There are some rights one cannot sign away, no matter what the TOS might say. The question here really is whether right of first sale is one of them.
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:DRM Restriction (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Rich0 (548339) on Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:15PM (#6862313)
        (http://slashdot.org/)
        Sounds like some high-collection-rate loan outfits I've heard of. They don't bother with the signatures though...

        Have you ever heard of the phrase "inalienable rights"? To allow people to give up their rights is just opening up the door for those with power to give folks an offer they can't refuse. Suppose all credit cards came with an indentured servitude clause?

        Legal principles like first sale should take precedence over any contract made after the principle is upheld by a court. Since first sale was upheld a long time ago, that would include any contract dealing with digital media.

        Every industry would love to get rid of the 2nd-hand market - it depresses prices. Gosh, if music fell under first sale you'd have cooperatives where everybody donates 10 songs to get access to the whole collection - as long as only one copy is checked out at a time it would be legal. Publishers would love to get rid of libraries as well - but that doesn't mean they're illegal.
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:DRM Restriction (Score:5, Insightful)

        by gurps_npc (621217) on Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:23PM (#6862425)
        That is incorrect, although a popular idea among business attorneys.

        MANY rights can not be given up, no matter what you sign.

        For example, slavery is illegal no matter what you sign.

        Parental rights also are sometimes considered valid, even if you signed them away (as in surrogate parents).

        The question is, is it possible to give away your right to sell an object and still be considered the legal owner of it. And that is very much up in the air. The right to sell is considered by many to be inherent to ownership.

        Consider a bankruptcy case. Assume someone went was rich and had a huge collection of purchased songs, say 50,000 at $1. each. Would a judge be able to legally order those songs sold for? Or could the rich man say, no I can't sell them according to the TOS.

        I think the TOS would be thrown out and the songs sold.

        [ Parent ]
        • Re:DRM Restriction by Xaoswolf (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:50PM
        • Re:DRM Restriction by Xaoswolf (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:57PM
        • But it is virtual property. by suso (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @04:00PM
          • by Kjella (173770) on Wednesday September 03 2003, @04:32PM (#6863178)
            (http://slashdot.org/)
            I think it's always been clear that virtual information, such as computer software, data and images that is copyrighted by an author is licensed to a user and not owned by a user.

            If you go down to the shop and buy a DVD, you own it. Just as you own your copy of the book you bought. However, the copyright to the movie or the book text is not owned by you. That is the way it always has been since the dawn of copyright.

            However, now that data (the text) can be separated from the medium (the book), they are trying push legally dubious ToS or EULAs to fool people into thinking just as you do - that you do not own your own copy.

            You own a copy of the data - you have every right to sell that copy, even if it is no longer confined to the pages of a book or the surface of a disc. However, you do *not* have the authority to make copies and sell them. Or to sell the original and keep a copy.

            Kjella
            [ Parent ]
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Re:DRM Restriction by beenay (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @04:01PM
        • Re:DRM Restriction by DdJ (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @04:04PM
        • Re:DRM Restriction by jaymzter (Score:3) Wednesday September 03 2003, @04:18PM
        • Re:DRM Restriction (Score:5, Insightful)

          by po_boy (69692) on Wednesday September 03 2003, @05:22PM (#6863637)
          (http://www.thekcguy.com/)
          The question is, is it possible to give away your right to sell an object and still be considered the legal owner of it. And that is very much up in the air. The right to sell is considered by many to be inherent to ownership.

          That's the position I'm in with my left kidney and my right eye. It's my understanding that I own them, but here in the US I can't sell either. (especially not on eBay.)
          [ Parent ]
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Re:DRM Restriction by miracle69 (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @06:02PM
        • Re:DRM Restriction by MrLint (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @06:49PM
      • Re:DRM Restriction (Score:5, Funny)

        by Odinson (4523) on Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:24PM (#6862437)
        (http://www.warcloud.net/~odinson/ | Last Journal: Wednesday January 14 2004, @11:43AM)

        By clicking this you agree to ship us your first born postmarked within 48 hours (business days only). Click here for packing instructions.

        Just because it's in a contract doesn't mean it's legal. Much less enforcable, moral, or in a sane alignment to the natural doctrines of the free market and capitalism. It just means another lawyer is off the bread line.

        [ Parent ]
      • I'm just rambling, don't mind me by MegaFur (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:29PM
      • Re:DRM Restriction by Overly Critical Guy (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:29PM
    • Re:DRM Restriction by arcdx (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:06PM
      • Re:DRM Restriction by Broadband (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:08PM
      • Re:DRM Restriction by rmohr02 (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:37PM
      • Re:DRM Restriction (Score:5, Insightful)

        I would have to say that, thanks to DRM, Apple doesn't give a shit what this guy does with the SONG FILE. They'll let him sell it for a penny or $400, or whatever he wants.

        Because the file iteself is useless without the iTunes account that set it up. That's how this DRM works. The account is what unlocks the file and makes it play music. And I'm sure that accounts are non-transferrable, except among computers you yourself own -- and you wouldn't want them to be otherwise, since the account is connected with your credit card, and can be used to purchase more songs. That's the real protection, the thing really preventing people from spreading their iTunes files all over the net...the threat of misuse of their account. Shit, I don't even leave my iTunes sessions open anymore, because my wife once bought a bunch of Nick Drake CDs on my account(It's the same credit card, I know...I just don't want anybody thinking I listen to that crap).

        So there's an issue here most people aren't seeing. There's a good and a service involved in this sale. The good is the file itself. The service is Apple's unlocking of the DRM.

        When I got my house painted, I paid for two things: the paint (a good), and the painter's work (a service). When he was done, i got to keep the leftover paint. I didn't get to keep him, I don't have any control over what he does from now on. I can sell you the extra paint, but if you want to get it on your house you'll have to pay the painter. You can try and convince him that I paid for his unlimited service based on the paint he sold me, but he will probably just laugh at you...even if I promise to scrap all the blue off the house myself, and transfer it to you.

        Isn't that what's going on here? The only confusion is over what the consumer's rights are, and what the medium is. Apple gave him a file and promised their services to unlock it an unlimited number of times to play it on his computers. If he gives it to somebody else, that's his own accord. The file is his to give. But the buyer shouldn't expect Apple to do anything for them. After all, they don't have a contract with Apple. Apple doesn't know the buyer from Adam, and if they don't want to perform a service for the buyer, they shouldn't have to.
        [ Parent ]
    • That's the point of DRM (Score:4, Interesting)

      by jcsehak (559709) on Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:26PM (#6862452)
      (http://www.rootrecords.org/)
      DRM is used to keep people from "abusing" the digital format and duplicating it all over the place, right? So you could argue that if DRM is there, it puts a set of rules in place, and if you're not breaking them, then it's okay.

      Forget about what should or should not be legal. It's like the law -- how do you know if it's not okay to do something? It's against the law. Can I wear a fish on my head? Sure, it's not against the law. Can I shoot someone? No -- it's illegal.

      By the same token: can I copy this file onto 4 computers? No, the DRM won't let you. Can I sell it to someone else? Well, if the DRM lets you, obviously it's okay.
      [ Parent ]
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  • first bid? by Nethergoat (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @02:58PM
    • Re:first bid? by SoSueMe (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:30PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • What format by Salsaman (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @02:58PM
  • Resell ? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by frodo from middle ea (602941) on Wednesday September 03 2003, @02:59PM (#6862090)
    (http://aol.com/)
    An interesting point to consider is that,
    Currently Apple doesn't allow download outside US, so if he is infact legally allowed to sale his bought music, then
    Can he sell it outside US, at a higher price and make profit ?
    • Re:Resell ? by BMonger (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:15PM
      • Re:Resell ? by frodo from middle ea (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:18PM
    • Re:Resell ? by daviddennis (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:25PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Transfer? (Score:5, Insightful)

    My main question is how would the ownership of the file be transferred?

    At the moment, the Apple Store lets you "authorize" music files. So for this person, after the file had been "sold", he would have to deauthorize the up to 3 other computers that had been allowed to play the song, give a copy of the file to the buyer, then provide them with his Apple iTunes Store username/password so they could authorize it on their machine.

    As he mentions, he could call up Apple and ask them to switch his authorization of the song to another user.

    Either way, it does raise an interesting question, and as someone who has been using the iTunes Music Store, I've never thought about it: Suppose that years from now, I want to sell all my downloaded music files to someone else. Is there a way to transfer the license? What if I left them in a will to my children later on - could Apple be required to ensure that they could use the files later?

    Or he's about to run into a massive "legal agreement" which will negate his First Sale ability - we'll just have to see what happens, neh?
    • Re:Transfer? by mrpuffypants (Score:3) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:18PM
      • Possible? by GeckoX (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:36PM
        • Re:Possible? (Score:4, Informative)

          by fubar1971 (641721) on Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:51PM (#6862698)
          (http://http//www.freeiPods.com/?r=14230492)
          ...Of course, legally if this is possible (which I believe it would be), he would be transferring ownership of the rights to that song making the iTunes copy he still has in his posession illegal...

          I don't believe you are correct. His rights are assigned and associated to the iTunes file, not an ill-gotten MP3 he downloaded. Even if you buy a CD, according to copyright laws you are allowed to make one backup copy for archival purposes. That's why the RIAA has a leg to stand on in court. Even if you own the CD's, legal you can not download the MP3 from someone else. You rights are associated to your media, not someone elses media. Now if you rip the songs off of your media, and do not share them, then you are ok. As soon as you share them, or download someone elses, then you have violated copyright law, because the content you are using is not associated to your purchased media.

          So if you sell the iTunes file, and then give the person the MP3, not only did he reneg on the iTunes sale (because the rights are associated to the iTunes file, not the MP3 you downloaded), but you just sold a pirated MP3.
          [ Parent ]
          • Re:Possible? by IthnkImParanoid (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @04:54PM
          • Re:Possible? by Ichijo (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @04:54PM
          • Re:Possible? by HeghmoH (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @11:09PM
    • Re:Transfer? by TheAwfulTruth (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:29PM
    • Re:Transfer? by c (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:46PM
    • Re:Transfer? by Honest Man (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:53PM
      • Re:Transfer? by bar-agent (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @04:08PM
        • Re:Transfer? by Honest Man (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @04:19PM
          • Re:Transfer? by Honest Man (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @04:43PM
    • Re:Transfer? by brian1442 (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @04:12PM
    • Re:Transfer? by alamut (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @05:54PM
      • Re:Transfer? by Tokerat (Score:2) Thursday September 04 2003, @09:36PM
    • Re:Transfer? by Domini (Score:2) Thursday September 04 2003, @03:50AM
    • Re:Transfer? by RickHunter (Score:3) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:38PM
      • Re:Transfer? by RickHunter (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:41PM
        • Re:Transfer? by fubar1971 (Score:1) Wednesday September 03 2003, @03:59PM
          • Re:Transfer? by RickHunter (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @04:45PM
            • Re:Transfer? by RickHunter (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @05:30PM
              • Re:Transfer? by RickHunter (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @07:24PM
                • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
              • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
            • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Re:Transfer? by the_quark (Score:2) Wednesday September 03 2003, @06:09PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Highest Bidders Name (Score:5, Funny)