Ebay vs. Musician 428
evenprime writes "Ebay's Verified Rights Owner Program was designed to make sure the auction site doesn't let people
sell things that violate copyright laws. Unfortunately, over-zealous ebay employees have been causing problems for independent musicians. George Ziemann has a detailed
account of the difficulties he's faced when trying to sell copies of his CD on the auction site. Apparently ebay kept pulling his ads simply because he was selling a product recorded to CD-R!
Ebay employees assume that all audio recordings on CD-R are the result of piracy, despite the fact that many indie bands burn their own music to CD-R to sell it. Wired has a nice summary of this story."
Uh what? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Uh what? (Score:4, Funny)
[sarcasm] Ofcourse, we all know that legitimate music only comes from the recording industry. Everything else is just damn piracy, arg. [/sarcasm]
Re:Uh what? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Uh what? (Score:3, Funny)
This is completely wrong.
Most of the people who work there are completly ordinary drones, who dont know the difference between a CDR and an apple; in fact, they have all the common sense of an apple.
The small number of programmers that work there are the smart people, the ones that make Ebay so very impressive. No one should be surprised by this. You wouldnt be surprised by the idiocy of a drone that works in the CD section at wall-mart would you? Same thing.
Entirely intentional (Score:5, Insightful)
Right, the RIAA. The same way the MPAA sent a take-down order for a fourth-grader's book report about Harry Potter. They don't care if the claim has any merit. All they care about is that no one distributes music except through their channels.
Re:Entirely intentional (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Entirely intentional (Score:3, Insightful)
Every listing clearly stated that he was the copyright holder, virtually all of his E-mails restated that fact.
-
Re:Entirely intentional (Score:3, Funny)
ebay (Score:5, Funny)
CYA (Score:5, Insightful)
EBAY knows doing such a thing will just bring it some bad reviews... OTOH, not doing this can bring in the RIAA hounds... what would you choose?
Re:CYA (Score:2, Insightful)
Except they're not, if you had RTFA (Score:5, Informative)
He also gives screen shots of other E-Bay listings which are blatant rip-offs.
He also points out that E-Bay claimed that someone else had supposedly said they were the copyright holder. When he wrote back to them asking to know who was making this false claim so he could protect his copyright, E-Bay responded with a letter which ignored his request.
Good grief. Read the article. Idiot.
Re:Except they're not, if you had RTFA (Score:3, Informative)
Did YOU bother to read the rules on ebay? The page you linked has this big bold exceptions paragraph which exempts him because he is the copyright owner!
Exception
Sellers may list copies of software, music, movies, television programs, or games on CD-R, DVD-R (or other forms of recordable media) where:
the seller is the copyright owner; or
the underlying material is in the public domain
The Problem with CYA at eBay (Score:5, Funny)
Let me explain 'hostile'. Automated responses, canned responses, lack of contact information for a real person or even having to dig through layers of pages to find email or phone numbers.
I've been a buyer and seller on eBay since late 1999 and their increasing distance between their people and customers is worrying. It's infuriating to an extreme when you find that Obvious things are hard to locate on their site and usually the novice only has volunteers on forums to go to, which are usually a complete waste, because most of the time it's social activity in the forums, rather than any real help.
Needing and seeking help on eBay is almost like going to large Builder's Square-type store, finding a box of nails you want, but on a shelf you can't reach, and having to find the employees break room to get someone to get them down for you, then having to wait for a cashier to finish a cigarette break before ringing up your order and then informing you they can only accept payment entered through a secretly hidden card scanner, somewhere in the store which you must find and your only help is from a band of gypsies which has been trapped in the store since 1994 and would rather ignore you unless you have a spare chicken. Effectively, like some of those weird chase dreams where you can't run and wake up tangled in bedsheets.
Maybe they model themselves on the Prisoner.
Re:The Problem with CYA at eBay (Score:3, Funny)
Re:CYA (Score:2)
2. Movies/videos are under the MPAA not the RIAA
3. The content of the DVD/SVCD are owned by the BBC, last I knew, not a member of the MPAA
CD-R? (Score:3, Insightful)
So just sell it as a CD.
3. Profit?
Re:CD-R? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:CD-R? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:CD-R? (Score:4, Informative)
CDs and CDRs are not different IF THEY ARE SINGLE SESSION.
Older CD drives cannot hack the multi-session CDs, BUT single session copies are identicle to AudioCDs, and in fact data CDs. Undetectable to CD-Drives old / new.
Some car audio systems (Normally cheapo personal CD player conversions) use low powered lasers / optical pickups, and hence weren't able to read SOME Single Session CDRs (Depending on the quality of the burner and CDR media itself - been there since 2x was the tops). But they couldn't read anything but the cleanest CDs either so its no great loss.
So Single Session CDR == CD
Multi-Session CDR != CD
Also, the format can be comprehended, and that is the major issue, its that the format LOOKS like what it expects, but that it then does things it doesn't, like put a second start-stop table in for each burn, lead-out/ lead-in sections in the middle of the cd, etc... Thus it can read it but treats it as a very very skippy CD, and can't access all of the data on it (audio or actual data)...
Please get facts right before giving an statement such as the above.
Z.
Re:CD-R? (Score:5, Informative)
A retail audio CD (or any other for that matter) is pressed. The data track is reflective, and pits are formed which change the reflectivity.
A CD-R has a clear dye layer and a reflective layer. The dye layer is heated by the laser during burning which causes it to become opaque. A CD-RW is essentially the same, but the dye can be changed from transparent to opaque like CD-Rs, but also opaque to transparent with different temperatures.
Re:CD-R? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:CD-R? Because it is. (Score:3, Informative)
CD-Rs are not normal CDs. Labelling them as such is bad.
Re:CD-R? Because it is. (Score:4, Insightful)
But ebay's autosearch bot is probably looking for precisely CD-R. So describe it as "writable CD" or "CD created with a CD writer" or something that won't trigger the autobot. Meanwhile hopefully the bad press will get ebay to make their system more flexible, and perhaps even consider making their system especially friendly to independent musicians.
Re:CD-R? Because it is. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:CD-R? Because it is. (Score:5, Insightful)
you can get 100 of your cd pressed in a jewel case with 4 color printing on the cd and the insert and the case spine PLUS cello wrapped for less than $3.00 a cd. that $300.00 for a first run of your CD so they look professional.. hell most musicians blow that much on booze in 2 nights of practice (ok Joking there... by my buddies and I certianly do)
there is no excuse as a musician if you have an album to sell, for you to have them pressed and looking 100% identical to that which you buy from the sellouts(Read that as RIAA members)
use Oasis for duplication (Score:4, Informative)
High-quality (175-line screen) four-color printing (4/1) printing
Direct on-disc printing
Injection-molded CDs manufactured to stringent quality specifications (These are NOT CDrs/CD-one offs)
Jewel boxes and shrink-wrap
Inclusion of a track from your CD on one of our OASIS SAMPLER CDs, with free distribution to the vast majority of radio stations in the US that specialize in your musical genre
National distribution directly through Amazon.com--the biggest retailer on the Web--as well as through cdstreet and the beloved indie store CD Baby
Free barcode if desired
Ten Retail-ready display boxes
Naturally, the prices go up if you want a nicer insert with more room for lyrics and band photos, and they go down if you buy more CDs. No. I'm not affiliated with Oasis. Our band may put out a disc of our own soon, so we've been looking into duplication options, and they are the company that we like the best so far. If you want to look at some other good options for indie bands, check out the list of duplicators recommended by CD Baby [cdbaby.net]. Some of them have even lower prices than Oasis. (but not as many free perks)
If you decided to use Oasis, you may want to talk to our rep, Alex (Alexandra) Vacek [mailto] - she's been real helpful with all our odd questions.
Re:CD-R? (Score:5, Informative)
Uh, no. A CD is not the same as a CD-R. A CD consists of a plastic substrate with a thin layer of reflective material (usually aluminum, sometimes gold in higher-quality discs) embedded in it. The aluminum has small pits (or bumps, depending on your point of view) in it, and this is how the laser differentiates between 1s and 0s.
A CD-R has a plastic substrate, with a layer of reflective aluminum , and on top of that, a layer of (usually green-blue) transparent dye. It is impossible for a laser to make the pits and bumps in the aluminum layer with the precision required. Thus, it doesn't. What it does, is heat up the dye at specific places. When the dye is heated, it becomes opaque, thus blocking the aluminum layer from view. Thus, the reading laser sees bumps where the opaque dye is, thus creating 0s. So, a CD-R is essentially initialized to "1", and by "burning" it, you create zeros where necessary.
Because of the method used to produce CD-Rs, they do not have the longevity that regular CDs have. Excessive heat or sunlight can break down the dye-layer, causing read-errors. These errors can be compensated for (Sony/Phillips specs say that a CD must be able to have a 1mm hole drilled anywhere in the disc and still be read perfectly), but eventually, the CD will be unreadable.
CDs on the other hand, are pressed, not burned. They are created similarly to the way records were. A master glass (yes, glass) disc is created with a photo-reflective layer, and a laser is used to burn off the photo-reflective layer in portions (thus creating the 0s). That master is then "electroformed" to create the metal presses (which are the inverse of the surface of the CD). The presses become part of a mold, and the actual CD is injection molded, and picks up the microscopic bumps from the mold, which create the bumps on the CD itself. These molds can then be used over and over to make CDs extremely fast. Really, it's pretty much identical to the way a record used to be made, with a matrix, and then pressing onto vinyl. Because they are pressed, CD's are not as affected by environmental conditions. (Unless it gets so hot that the disc warps, but, well you've got other problems if that happens).
And that, kids, is why you can't advertise CD-Rs as CDs.
On the plus side (Score:3, Funny)
The vapours, if inhaled, can cause hallucinations.
On the minus side:
The vapours, if inhaled, can cease respirations.
cutting the nose to spite the face (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't think that the best idea is to anger a group of people who are known to have an audience. I mean, these guys have fans.
but they must bow to the wicked witch of the west.
time for the traditional raspberry to the RIAA
{bpphbzphbpbzhbphz!!!}
It's not just individuals... (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.negativland.com/riaa/
Re:It's not just individuals... (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.negativland.com/riaa/dowesue.html
was the bit about Top 40 artsits only clearing samples you can recognize.
Its not like it surprises me, but thats some good argumentative fodder should you be talking to proponants of *air-tight* copyright laws.
That is, music doesn't/can't get made without samples, and even the big players dont clear all their samples
Re:It's not just individuals... (Score:3, Insightful)
Not true. I`m not sure about percentages of this vs that sound creation method, but there are all manner of ways of creating sounds - analogue synths, simulated analog synths, fm, additive, combinations of simple waveforms modified by algo's etc. Also, many samples are just simple drum/percussion samples you can get on a sample disk (or sample yourself) or whatever. This doesn't detract from your basic point, however.
Re:It's not just individuals... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's not just individuals... (Score:3, Interesting)
At any rate, the classical greats were sampling each other (including 2 or 3 bars from each others' works verbatim) all the time, so I shouldn't even talk about it like its new. Its been around for hundreds of years, so I guess what I meant is that sampling isn't going away.
And since it isn't going away, then indie artists should be held to the same legal standards as big label artists as it pertains to sampling.
Unfortauntely, it doesnt happen that way. I've had indie musician sites refuse to host some of my stuff because they *suspect* that that distorted, garbled sample of some dude talking at the beginning of my track is going to land them in legal hot waters. Like the copyright holder is going storm into their offices with laywers for something he recorded 30 years ago, and demand compensation for saying 6 words in a row in some creative copyright-holding way. *smirk*
But yeah, didn't mean doesnt/cant. I meant wont.
Huh? (Score:2, Insightful)
It's Ironic (Score:2)
Too bad they are an online monoply, leaving no choice for those who want an alternative.
Re:It's Ironic (Score:3, Insightful)
IRONY: Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: "Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated" (Richard Kain).
Sorry to jump down your throat, but this is one of my personal pet peeves. Irony would be if Ebay had a problem with selling CD-Rs, when they themselves were the largest supplier of blank CD-R media. Or if they wouldn't sell CD-Rs, but linked to Napster and Kazaa.
What you describe is merely a case of double standards.
Re:It's Ironic (Score:3, Insightful)
I would argue it's not even a double standard. Porno is legal. CD-Rs of your own music is legal, too... The problem is the lunkheads who search for bootlegs aren't paying enough attention, and end up NOT finding the real bootleggers, instead screwing the honest musicians (because the bootleggers probably don't use the term "cd-r", but the honest musicians do).
Re:It's Ironic (Score:3, Funny)
And that my friend leads us back to irony...
Cry me a river (Score:3, Insightful)
There's a ton of different auction sites out there. If they don't like what EBay is doing they can quite simply go elsewhere and peddle their wares. If people really want the product they're selling then they'll find it.
GOD whining about corporations is really getting old, especially when there are so many options available. It's not like EBay has a monopoly on the web-auction business. If these quote-unquote artists really don't like it they could get together and start their OWN auction site, just for indie musicians.
The free market. Love it, or... love it.
Re:Cry me a river (Score:5, Funny)
The funny thing about writing as opposed to speaking is that you don't have to actually say "quote-unquote". Due to the magic of the "quote" key, you can simply enclose the appropriate phrase in what I like to call "quote marks". For future reference, it is also unecessary to use "finger quotes" while typing.
Re:Cry me a river (Score:5, Funny)
Dear eBayXXXX Slashdot customer spatrick_123,
Your recent post contains infringing copyrighted material, namely the use of "finger quotes", and has been removed.
Please contact the copyright holder, Doctor Evil (dr@evil.com) in order to resolve this issue.
NOTE: this post was generated by a clueless robot. Please do not reply.
Re:Cry me a river (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cry me a river (Score:5, Funny)
Well, you're missing the incredibly obvious remedy for a single customer facing unfair policies:
Submit them to Slashdot.
I mean, some of us tend to overestimate our leverage from this site, but look what this guy's done: a few thousand of eBay's target market are even more annoyed with them than before, and there's a visible record of this idiocy that's going to be picked up by probably hundreds of thousands of Google searches over the next few months.
That's legally and fairly leveraging the free market to your advantage.
Re:Cry me a river (Score:2)
--Atlantix
Re:Cry me a river (Score:5, Insightful)
Huh? Ebay is going against their own policy, and it is wrong to prevent people from selling something they legally own out of ignorance. Why is it considered wrong to stand up for yourself?
Ebay should NOT be shutting down these auctions. Why is it whining to say that? No, they don't have to go somewhere else, they have every right to use eBay, who is THE most recognized auction site. It isn't about not liking eBay's policies, it is about them screwing over their customers who ARE following their policy. Why did this even make the news? Because it speaks to the larger problem of who controls "intellectual property", and the general illusion that "big corporations own everything". It sheds some light on ignorance in this country, which apparently is a bad thing to some people.
Re:Cry me a river (Score:3, Insightful)
Heres a strange thought, maybe some companies acutally LIKE feedback from their customers. I am sure that Ebay does not want to LOOSE business and would fix this if they knew it would make them money.
You must not work in the real world. Here is an example. I am make product X. I get 10000 customer comments stating "I will pay for your product if you add feature Z (such as selling CD-R's). I look at the cost of adding feature Z, if it is profitable I add it. "Whining" is a big part of the free market. The company listens to the feedback "whining" and makes a decision on whether it is profitable to add/change their product.
The free market. Love it, or... love it.
Fair Play (Score:2, Informative)
Refusing a few kosher items may pee-off the seller (and the few loyal fans), but accidentally selling one sour item could really land them in it.
Trite, bit is is better to be safe than sorry.
Re:Fair Play (Score:2)
They occasionally try to be on the safe-side, but the're not nearly consistent enough for it to be effective.
Good example (Score:4, Interesting)
The RIAA should just rename itself 'The Trustworthy Music Initiative'. The more strongarm RIAA gets, and the more fear they seed
Ridiculous (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Ridiculous (Score:3, Interesting)
Should eBay really be responsible for preventing these abuses? The market does handle some things well, and this is one of them: if people are willing to pay, let them pay. As long as the seller accurately represents what they are selling, and the sale doesn't break the law, the rest is between the buyer and the seller.
One time, I was hanging out with a friend, and he noted that he'd found a Susan B. Anthony silver dollar. I said, "You should sell it on eBay!" We laughed
OK, so the buyers are probably suckers. But they're not being scammed -- they're just paying money for something that you and I probably think is not worth it. Is that eBay's problem?
Simple solution (Score:5, Interesting)
Suprised? (Score:3, Funny)
Is eBay the most appropriate venue for indies? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is eBay the most appropriate venue for indies? (Score:4, Insightful)
Come on people... (Score:4, Funny)
Just becuase he only anticipated selling 20 CDs doesn't mean he should be cheated that opportunity simply because eBay employees are tools.
Ebay Records, INC (Score:2, Funny)
A workaround, and a musing (Score:5, Interesting)
Now, the musing. This kind of blanket policy in regards to anything is the proverbial throwing the baby out with the bath water. For example, back in 1997, a friend of mine got me anime (the first Tenchi movie) for a birthday present, which inspired me to start collecting the series. Finding a Suncoast that would sell it to me at the age of 17 was difficult, though, since almost every one I visited had "Must Be 18 or Over to Purchase" stickers on every title - even on titles with absolutely no content that could be justifiably deemed "offensive" to those not of legal age. I eventually just enlisted the help of an older sister to get what I was going after.
The irony of this is that when I turned 18, virtually every Suncoast in the area dropped that blanket policy.
What the..... (Score:2, Interesting)
Where's the sense in that?
Vigilante Corporations (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Vigilante Corporations (Score:3, Insightful)
How is a corporation being a "vigilante" by merely regulating the conduct of its own business? EBay is not breaking into people's home and beating them for trading pirated CD's. Nor are they aren't slipping viruses into pirated software sold on EBay.
Of course they have the right to deny service to *their* marketplace based on *their* policies. You claim something about this being "modern" law, but please direct me back to a time when a business wasn't able to police itself?
A blanket policy saying EBay cannot deny the right to service is quite a statement. So what happens if a serial killer wants to sell human flesh soup online? Or someone starts pimping 12 year old girls? Are they allowed to deny service to people posting fradulant auctions?
And your an idiot if you think government regulation is going to "make it all better". If the government gets in there, the regulation is going to be FAR FAR more restrictive. If the government gets in there EBay will have to start having age-checks and mature-warnings for CDs and video games in the name of "protecting children".
EBay made a mistake. Big Deal. It is darn hard policing thousands upon thousands of auctions.
Brian Ellenberger
Re:Vigilante Corporations (Score:3, Insightful)
eBay is worried about being sued.
why do we know this? if eBay was tipped off that this guy was doing something illegal, why didnt they call the cops?
The answer? They dont give a rats ass about catching criminals, they only dont want to be sued. So any 'policing' they do will operate on a level of reasoning that centres purely around "will we get into trouble for this" instead of "is this person committing a crime that is illegal as stated by the law?"
Letting companies police themselves is tantamount to letting them draw up a new legal code while they'reat it; a legal code that maximizes profits instead of ensures the public safety and good. If companies can prevent people from living regular lives (since you need to interact with companies to live), then we might as well through the whole court system out and all write checks to whoevers got the biggest lawyers breathing down eBay's back.
Discrimination based on *any attribute*, from skin colour to "are you selling content which at a superficial level appears to be more expensive to verify the legality of that content rather than prevent you from selling it in the first palce"
eBay should turn this guy over to the authorities or shut the fuck up and let him sell. Anything else simply invalidates the very function and purpose of our judicial system (to curb the freedoms of those who break the law in order to prevent them from offending in the future, and to offer an opportunity of reabilitiation.)
Preemptive strike (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not sure this would do any good in the case of blind keyword parsing, but it might at least give you some protection against vigilantes (private or corporate) who cruise ebay looking for contraband to report.
Re:Vigilante Corporations (Score:3, Insightful)
and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country....
corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high
places will follow, and the money power of the country will
endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of
the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the
Republic is destroyed."
--U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864
Indiscriminate Copyright Bots at work? (Score:2, Interesting)
Perhaps this is a result of an indiscriminate Copyright Bot [foxnews.com] as described by Tennessee Law professor, Glenn Reynolds [instapundit.com]?
Ebay's odd about things. (Score:5, Informative)
So he gave up trying to sell it and burned the mod disk and now he can't stop raving about the import DVDs he can watch. I'm bitter because Breakin', Breakin' 2, Beat Street, Rappin', The Best Of Weird Weekends and all other sorts of DVDs I'd love to buy will likely never be released stateside.
And still the pirates march on on Ebay; pirates keep on doing their thing without being hassled by the man while people who do things by the book get fucked. I love intellectual "property" law.
Re:Ebay's odd about things. (Score:3, Insightful)
DVD regions are not law, not by a long shot.
free publicity (Score:2, Redundant)
Terminology (Score:2)
That being said, he could have saved himself a lot of trouble by just not using the term CD-R. It's clear that the terminology is where eBay's mental scripts are breaking, and not just in one person at thier end, and so rather than make eBay overhaul their (admittedly overly simplistic) mental algorithms (yes, I know that he said he had copyright, but their rules probably had lots of "Cover The Company's And Your Own Ass" built into them), it would've made sense to said "New Indie CD on sale" and make no mention that one side of the CD happens to be blue.
Smarter Musicians (Score:3, Interesting)
can't buy this kind of publicity (Score:5, Insightful)
Jury Duty (Score:3, Insightful)
Paying for customer service (Score:2, Insightful)
1. Does the auction sell organs or living tissue? [press here]
2. Is the auction selling any material deemed offensible by the French government? [press here]
3. Does the auction include any CD-R media[press here] (which fires off an automated email, de-lists the auction, etc.)
Its a quantity over quality approach. If you want better customer service, expect to have to pay more to sell your product.
Learn to state your case clearly (Score:5, Informative)
I sympathize with the man completely, but I wish he didn't let himself get sidetracked so easily. I would have sent a letter back that clearly and simply stated:
I hate not being able to get a human to talk to me. He's frustrated enough from having them remove his auctions after a cursory glance that didn't even check to see if he followed their policy, and not being able to find someone who will talk to him about it makes it worse.
I also think his "can't sell this on ebay" logo is invalid; that would violate the right of first sale, wouldn't it; the right to resell anything you have bought? Part of fair use, last I checked.
Re:Learn to state your case clearly (Score:3, Informative)
A while ago, while a grad student, I did some resaerch into the right of first sale. I spoke with sevral lawyers, and the general concensus was the "right of first sale" is in murkey legal water. Basically, there is no universal, US -wide iron-clad right to sell any item you purchased, since the laws vary from state to state. I had expected it to be very clear-cut, but discovered it wasn't so.
Two sidebars:
Some of my legal research was done on-line in the mid 90's for teh article - it was interesting to see lawyers using the net to offer free advice - as one put it, if only few calls results in business it's still a good deal for him.
I got into this becuse my B-school admins forbade us selling our case books - the (very expensive) compilations of HBS cases, articles and other material that supplemented our textbooks. At 70-100+ $ a book, they cost more thna a real, printed textbook. The school didn't want us to resell them beacuse they negotiated a discount on the copyright fees based on expected annual revnue, and resales potentially cut into that. So, we couldn't advertise casebooks for sale on campus.
Odd, really. (Score:5, Insightful)
Their answer is always "The copyright owner must contact us. Please alert them and have them get in touch with us."
I guess the same thing doesn't apply to music for some reason.
Re:Odd, really. (Score:3, Insightful)
Internet street singer (Score:3, Insightful)
But as with street singers, he's got trouble with the police patrols (in this case the uber-careful eBay). So they kick him, spread his meager cents all over the street and hint him to "get outta here". They don't wanna know if he's good or bad. They don't care for his music. They just wanna see the street looking antiseptic, wax shinny and without a single stain on it. For who? I don't know. Maybe they are worried about its nostalgic clients who dream to see the colors of the III Reich again?
a worse example (Score:5, Interesting)
My worse example is that I tried to sell an import copy of final fantasy 9 on ebay. (I am in the UK and this was the US version).
I basically stated that this was a US PS1 disc and you couldn't play it unless you had a US or chipped console.
So they pulled my auction, stating that I was "encouraging console chipping" to play (original) imports, which Sony had told them was illegal.
They said it would be OK to resubmit the auction if I made no mention of chipping, but I felt disinclined to walk the thin line between stating something they felt was encouraging evil crime and on the other hand not giving people enough information, so they'd complain when they couldn't play it. (I have had people in the US for example buy PAL videos from me and be mystified as to why they can't play them).
graspee
eBay's violation-finding techniques (Score:3, Interesting)
eBay notoriously doesn't actually *check* many auctions, and instead tends to end things via VeRO by searching listings for "forbidden" words. One of the big forbidden words is "promo" or "promotional," which is almost guaranteed to get your listing kicked out of the music section (despite the fact that it's a rather spurious assumption to make that things stamped "Not for sale" can never be sold, but...). Thus, one finds endless listings for "samplers" or "rhymes-with-flow-motional" albums. This may be a case of the same thing.
Or it could just be the usually self-appointed eBay police making life hell, but...
-D
don't ya just love ebay.... (Score:4, Insightful)
You're not allowed to sell your own music on CD-R just because it being on CD-R makes it automatically too likely to be inviolation of a copyright somewhere? This from the well-known auction site known for sellers who never really ship anything but cash your check or accept your cc payment anyway? The site where you can easily by "native american" artifacts or jewelry made in locations like mexico or china? The site where you can buy used dvds, videos or tapes at almost any time? Where you can buy stolen goods almost as easily as you can at the local flea market? Ebay needs to buy a life.
He protests too much, methinks... (Score:4, Interesting)
It should have been clear that any listing that mentioned CD-R or CD-RW was going to get tagged. It should have been clear that this was being done by a dumb automated process. It should have been clear that eBay does NOT have the staff to spend very much time researching the actual status of every listed item. Maybe this is wrong, maybe this is right, but it should have been pretty clear what was going on.
What he should have tried was continuing to sell his CD's on eBay, but simply avoiding any red-flag terms in the listing.
It's obvious at this point that he wants eBay to accept listings _in which he calls them CD-R's_.
In other words, it's no longer a genuine effort to see whether independent musicians can use eBay to earn a living selling their recordings; it's become a crusade to change eBay's policies about listing CD-R's
Well, that's fine if that's what he wants to do. Personally, if it were me, I'd try to see whether there was some reasonable, hypocritical way to list my CD's in a way that was honest and didn't misrepresent them in any way material to buyers, but which would pass eBay's automated filters.
If the automated filters don't catch the listings, it's unlikely that eBay would cause him any problems UNLESS there actually was a COMPLAINT from the likes of Vivendi--and that wouldn't be likely to happen if the situation is as he represents it to be.
what a whiner (Score:3, Insightful)
His frustrations really are because the ebay "auction filter" apparently automatically stops any auction containing the words "cdr" or "cd-r".
So, this guy writes and complains as he has a right to, and yet continues to whine even when they apologize and admit that yes, they made an error. ebay tells him he can relist but he decides to be a brat and lists a couple of auctions selling "nothing" which incidentally received more bids than his band's cds did.
finally he reposts the ads which eventually get flagged by the same brainless auction filter. yes, this is frustrating and ebay should now have a human review flagged items before cancelling them but his response is totally off the wall. he complains, a person responds and apologizes but he wants to file a suit against ebay and states that:
"Ideally, I would like to file an injunction to force eBay to stop the sales of all CD media pending the resolution of this issue. I am going to pursue this through every possible avenue."
he no longer really is interested in getting the problem resolved. he then decides that the best thing to do is to mail bomb their system.
"I was going to send the message incessantly until someone called me or they shut down the comment section to force me to stop"
he did this for four hours and apparently sent 1800 e-mails.
According to the intro to his site, he spammed a bunch of people he didn't know in order to publicize himself and this issue. Well done Mr. Ziemann, your unknown band whose cds apparently received zero bids has now obtained a million dollars of free publicity.
don't support this publicity hound.
I'm an independent House DJ.... (Score:5, Informative)
I've never had an issue with eBay throughout all of this. I don't state explicitly in the auction listings [ebay.com] that these are CD-R's. That's unnecessary information. It's all about the content at that point. I think their violation-detection process is poor. I've had auctions forcefully cancelled for using words like "ass" (as in "Funky-ass house mix CD") or using the real titles of some of the raunchier tracks I play. It happens, though.
If y'all want to hear some good house music, hit up my website [djedwhite.com].
I have someone stealing MY music....in Germany!! (Score:3, Interesting)
My Deep House CD [cgi.ebay.de]
Another pirated CD [cgi.ebay.de]
Contrast that to a *real* listing [ebay.com].
So, basically, this guy bought my box-set back in July. He's been duplicating my CD's and selling them in the German market for months. Despite the blatant infringement (he even took my HTML), I don't think I have any recourse. Heck, it's sorta flattering.
Re:cunting djs (Score:3, Insightful)
Pardon my ignorance for that type of music, but aren't you just copying other people's music, mixing the ends and beginning of the songs together and selling it as yours? It seems to me that I could record the audio off of VH1's video shows where they fade one song into the next and sell that with the same infringement.
Incidently, I am *not* making a statement that being a good DJ is not a skill. Being a really good DJ, keeping the beat together, and keeping people on the floor or circulating - basically maintaining "mood" - is difficult, and certainly to be praised.
But a mix tape is a mix tape, right? So what are you selling if it isn't a mix tape (however well it's put together and however well the songs are joined)?
--
Evan
CDR's on eBay (Score:5, Informative)
Well, I've run into this policy a few times, not for my own music, but for music from CD-R-only labels. A lot of independent electronic musicians that I listen to are on small "bedroom labels". And when I sell some extra CDs on eBay I like to sell those too. They are NOT illegal copies, they are legit, original, sometimes with hand-made and hand-numbered inserts.
I've tried all the following:
The only one that was pulled was #1. They might've expanded their filter to catch #2 or #3 but that's how it was when I was testing out variations.
Note that in every auction containing "CD-R", I noticed in my logs the next morning that a machine from eBay's netblock came and viewed the auction. Due to variations in the user-agent, and because sometimes they visited twice in the space of a few minutes, I believe they have a Real Live(tm) employee do it. What a wonderful job, eh? And they ONLY pull the auction when it clearly and unambiguously says the item is a CD-R. So I guess if you want to keep them busy, put "THIS IS NOT A CD-R" in all your auctions.
Nowdays, I just don't bother saying it's a CDR or anything. This music is obscure enough that the buyers usually know, and nobody's complained. Great policy, huh? In the meantime, people are selling unauthorized CDRs left and right, and they don't get caught.
I saw this one guy selling CDs without good descriptions or pictures.. I checked his feedback.. full of negatives because he was basically selling homemade "mix CDRs" and not advertising them as such. His feedback was also full of positives saying "great rare CD". So his business was doing all right from the many suckers out there. Shouldn't they shut these guys down first? Not to mention the guys selling 80GB hard drives STUFFED FULL of big-label MP3s. "Delete the ones you don't have CDs for" Yeah right!
So although it is within eBay's legal rights to arbitrarily do shit like this, it's a mind-numbingly stupid, ineffective, and purposeless policy. They just do it to satisfy the big labels. This guy should simply imply what it is, and not write CD-R anyplace in the auction. Or he could do like I did, put a bunch of auctions with subtle variations and learn which get pulled and which don't.
And oh, yeah don't put any "naughty words" in the auctions (I have no idea what the list of naughty words are, except "fuck" and "shit" are on it). They used to allow them in song titles, but now the drones move them to the "Adult" category with the hardcore porn.
And don't even bother writing customer support, they'll send you a syrupy "thanks for your business, but that's how it is" form letter.
Hey, can't the RIAA help? (Score:5, Funny)
Musicians, CD-Rs, and the RIAA boycott (Score:5, Interesting)
In 1999, at the height of the Napster furor, I decided I was going to boycott the entire RIAA until further notice; the implications of their copyright fanaticism on free speech are staggering, and I feel like I would be remiss in supporting it.
You can't really base a boycott on piracy, so I've stopped listening to RIAA recordings altogether; 99% of what I hear is stuff I download from other musicians' sites and burn to CD-R. And although you have to search a little harder, I think some of my CD-Rs are plain and simply *better* than anything the Big Four have put out since, say, 1985.
Here's two of the primary problems I encouter:
1. That fucking CD-R tax. Every time I buy a CD-R, Congress assumes I'm a pirate, and I have to pay a nickel to mega-acts like Britney Spears and the Backstreet Boys. That's exactly the kind of shit I'm trying to boycott in the first place; it infuriates me that they've circumvented some of my boycott through Congressional lobbying. In a way, I feel like I'd be justified in stealing a Britney CD and microwaving it; I'm paying for it, right? But I don't.
2. This eBay policy, and the dozens of similar policies, that assume that legitimate music cannot be packaged as a CD-R. News flash: it can. I own probably 100 CD-Rs given to me by various local and independent bands (in about 10% of cases, I paid about $5, but usually they just give them to me because they want me to hear the music). This stuff is not contraband! I'm not a pirate!
The most important thing we can do is be vigilant against the notion that if something doesn't come out of mainstream channels, it's somehow inferior or illegal. The RIAA pays lobbyists like Rosen millions of dollars a year to sell us that proposition; let them know we're not buying.
Re:Musicians, CD-Rs, and the RIAA boycott (Score:3, Insightful)
Indeed -- this has become a significant focus for me lately, as I've had significant difficulties getting even my own family members to stop by and look at the Open Music Registry -- my sister, for example, claimed she and her husband weren't interested because they don't pay attention to "new" artists (meaning, those lacking the corporate seal of approval). It's one thing for a typical Slashdot user to understand this; however, getting Joe/Jane Average to "get it" is something else.
Last night I posted a short Ogg audio file [openmusicregistry.org] promoting free entertainment, which I hope people will either pick up for use directly or will take the idea and make their own, to include in Internet radio broadcasts, Free music compilations, etc. It's a long uphill battle, though.
Try selling M$ software... I dare ya (Score:3, Interesting)
If you want to try to sneak one by: I highly recommend using a 3-day auction. It usually takes several days for them to troll the site to search for any such scandalous items!
That is scary (Score:3, Funny)
Just stop using the word CD-R, moron (Score:3, Insightful)
Just call the thing a CD. Lots of bands sell CD's at live shows and when you get them home they turn out to be CD-R. They work fine in almost all players. If someone complains, give them a refund including shipping costs. But really, hardly anyone cares. The first time I bought an artist's CD and it turned out to be a CD-R, I didn't think "I've been gypped!". I thought "wow, cool, I'm really 3733t for liking this obscure band!".
If you really want to mention in the auction that the disc is on recordable media, then do that. Just say "this disc was personally duplicated on recordable media by the artist and copyright holder and is a fully legitimate copy". As long as you don't use the magic letters CD-R, EBay is extremely unlikely to flag the auction.
Sheesh. There are plenty of battles that need to be fought. This isn't one. Just change the wording in your damn auction, sell your damn CD's, and then get out in the streets and protest about something that matters.
Well, that was interesting (Score:5, Interesting)
That said, there is a simple answer to the eBay problem: simple and literally true. Advertise the CDs like this:
Music CD: Not Mass Replicated
The process by which major label CDs are made is called 'replication'. It's different from home CD burning or low-volume duplicating- both use CDRs, replicated CDs are stamped in an expensive (hundreds of dollars) process allowing them to be churned out faster and cheaper. It's mass production.
Anyone who seriously cares about not getting a CDR in their music purchase ought to know what 'mass replicated' means. If they don't, maybe they can guess. Again, this is literally the technical term for it- rather than saying 'CDR' you can say 'not mass replicated' which means exactly the same thing. Even some small label releases are duplicated on CDR rather than replicated, so if it matters you can't go by whether it was a pressing run, or outsourced. It's strictly about whether the CD was replicated or duplicated.
Oh, and go check out MY music [ampcast.com]- I don't mailbomb people ;) how's that for a sales pitch? "Listen to my music, I promise not to hack onto your computer and delete your mp3s, or mailbomb you, or prohibit you from reselling the CD you bought from me on eBay." This world we live in...
eBay's been using heavy-handed tactics for a while (Score:3, Informative)
Re:SERVES THEM RIGHT! (Score:3, Insightful)
Parent poster doesn't get it.. (Score:4, Informative)
unitedmusicians.com (Score:3, Interesting)