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The Courts Science

Jury Awards Climate Scientist $1 Million In Defamation Lawsuit (apnews.com) 153

"The jury took little time to determine that Michael Mann had been defamed by conservative writers who likened him to a pedophile," writes longtime Slashdot reader BishopBerkeley in a follow-up to Wednesday's story. "He has received a $1 million judgment against the writers. This was likely because scrutiny of his data showed no malfeasance or misuse of data, but the 'conservative' writers' accusations continued, nevertheless." The Associated Press reports: Mann's research was investigated after his and other scientists' emails were leaked in 2009 in an incident that brought further scrutiny of the "hockey stick" graph, with skeptics claiming Mann manipulated data. Investigations by Penn State and others found no misuse of data by Mann, but his work continued to draw attacks, particularly from conservatives. "Mann could be said to be the Jerry Sandusky of climate science, except for instead of molesting children, he has molested and tortured data," Simberg wrote. Another writer, Mark Steyn, later referenced Simberg's article in his own piece in National Review, calling Mann's research "fraudulent."

The jury in Superior Court of the District of Columbia awarded Mann $1 in compensatory damages from each writer; it also awarded punitive damages of $1,000 from Simberg and $1 million from Steyn. It announced its verdict after four weeks of trial and one day of deliberations. During the trial, Steyn represented himself, but said through his manager Melissa Howes that he would be appealing the $1 million award in punitive damages, saying it would have to face "due process scrutiny."

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Jury Awards Climate Scientist $1 Million In Defamation Lawsuit

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  • Especially considering the likelihood that the cuntservatives are backed by oil interests. Pedophile oil interests (not a joke; read a bit about Saudi Arabia).
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by thegarbz ( 1787294 )

      Pedophile oil interests (not a joke; read a bit about Saudi Arabia).

      Countries aren't pedophiles, people are pedophiles. Your post equating the two (whether right or wrong) is precisely the irrelevant tie-together-all-bad-things bullshit rhetoric that we're celebrating as being rejected in this court case.

      It's no better when we do it. Try to keep your points separate and relevant to their own discussions, otherwise you come across as the same kind of a rambling lunatic as the climate deniers.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by drinkypoo ( 153816 )

        Countries aren't pedophiles, people are pedophiles.

        Let me just leave this here [buzzfeednews.com]. Countries aren't pedophiles, but some cultures explicitly protect pedophilia, and theirs is one of them.

        Our culture isn't as much better as we like to think, though. For example SA is commonly criticized for not having any concept of spousal rape. But a certain former POTUS got away with spousal rape for the same reason, there was no such concept in the state in which he forced himself upon his wife at the time. And hey, let me bring up Waco for a second; the FBI allegedly move

        • Countries aren't pedophiles, but some cultures explicitly protect pedophilia, and theirs is one of them.

          And we're talking about oil interests and investments. You're doing the same thing as the OP, shoehorning pedophilia into an unrelated discussion. Whether you call the money being spent on anti-climate lobbying pedodollars, or you equate a climate researcher to a pedophile, in both cases you're appealing to an unrelated emotion while your fundamental point lacks substance.

          Pedophiles should be called out (and sentenced to an eternity of being kicked in the nuts). Climate deniers should be called out. Fossil

          • Whether you call the money being spent on anti-climate lobbying pedodollars, or you equate a climate researcher to a pedophile, in

            Good thing I'm doing neither of those things.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    He won $1 in compensatory damages from Rand Simberg and Mark Steyn. However, the jury awarded $1000 punitive damages against Simberg, and $1 million against Steyn.

    Rand's thoughts: [transterrestrial.com] I am pleased that the jury found in my favor on half of the statements at issue in this case, including finding my statement that Professor Mann engaged in data manipulation was not defamation. In over a decade of litigation, the sanctions levied against Professor Mann dwarf the judgment against me.”

  • Recurring theme (Score:5, Informative)

    by quonset ( 4839537 ) on Thursday February 08, 2024 @11:01PM (#64226520)

    Looking at recent history, it's funny how many right-wing nut jobs have had their heads handed to them for lying, all the while claiming their lies are free speech. I guess it never occurred to them that yes, lying is free speech, but they are subject to the consequences of that lying. A short review.

    Rudy Giiuliani - ordered to pay $150 million in damages [theguardian.com] to two election workers in Georgia after he lied about them changing votes and defaming them in general. Needless to say, he immediately filed for bankruptcy [bbc.com].

    Alex Jones - originally ordered to pay $1.5 billion in damages [cnn.com] to families of Sandy Hook after he repeatedly and knowing lied the kids were never slaughtered, might only have to pay $85 million if he follows the court's directions on payments. He also filed for bankruptcy, all the while continuing to live his extravagant lifestyle to the tune of $65,000 to $90,000 per month.

    Fox News - ordered to pay $787 million [cnn.com] after knowingly and repeatedly lying about Dominion Voting machines. Needless to say, the tabloid continues to insist it did nothing wrong, that its free speech was attacked and oh yeah, by settling, we don't have to go to trial and have all the other lies recorded for posterity.

    Fox News and Rudiy Giuliani, again - Smartec, another voting company, has a $2.7 billion lawsuit [cnn.com] against both the Fox tabloid and Rudy Giuliani for, what else, knowingly and repeatedly lying about Smartec voting systems.

    Multiple attorneys - after repeatedly lying about the 2020 election then going to court over those lies, several attorneys have been sanctioned [theguardian.com] by the courts for their lies and even bringing the case to court in the first place.

    Roger Stone - sued for $100 million [businessinsider.com] for defaming a Chinese businessman on a conspiracy web site called InfoWars, by calling him a “turncoat criminal who is convicted of crimes here and in China" and alleging without evidence that Guo had violated US campaign finance laws by making campaign donations as a foreign national, which is illegal. Like the Fox tabloid, Stone chickened out and retracted all his lies and instead of paying money, ran advertisements in newspapers across the country apologizing for his lies as well as using social media to retract all of his lies.

    The Oompa Loompa - First ordered to pay $5 million to E. Jean Carroll [pbs.org] for both sexual assault and defamation, only to have his great attorney Alina Habba upgrade to an additional $83 million award [nbcnews.com] after her client continued to defame Carroll.

    So yeah, free speech is great so long as you can pay the piper.

    • Re:Recurring theme (Score:5, Informative)

      by Wolfling1 ( 1808594 ) on Thursday February 08, 2024 @11:52PM (#64226588) Journal
      +1

      Wikipedia has a really good article [wikipedia.org] that discusses free speech and links off to other good articles about the harm principle and the 1st amendment.

      It goes some way to explain how freedom of expression and slander can co-exist.
      • Re:Recurring theme (Score:5, Insightful)

        by mjwx ( 966435 ) on Friday February 09, 2024 @09:56AM (#64227236)

        +1

        Wikipedia has a really good article [wikipedia.org] that discusses free speech and links off to other good articles about the harm principle and the 1st amendment.

        It goes some way to explain how freedom of expression and slander can co-exist.

        The conservative definition of "freedom of speech" is "I can say and do whatever I like and you have to silently agree with it". I think it's too often ignored that criticism is freedom of expression as well and arguably the far more important part and the "mah freeze peach" is far too often used as an excuse to silence critics.

        Freedom of speech is the ability to speak your mind.
        Responsibility is not abusing that freedom to spread lies and/or do harm.
        Integrity is being able to back up your arguments with evidence and solid reasoning (hiding behind freedom of speech just means the best argument you have is that it is literally not illegal to say).
        Finally, wisdom is the realisation that, just because you can say something doesn't mean you should.

        Freedom without responsibility is just anarchy, without integrity it's worthless, freedom with responsibility, integrity and wisdom is the greatest gift we can give to mankind.

    • Re:Recurring theme (Score:4, Insightful)

      by AlanObject ( 3603453 ) on Friday February 09, 2024 @02:11AM (#64226696)

      I wish I had mod points to mod this up.

      The problem is that so-called "conservatives" have been able to lie with impunity for far too long. They make a ton of money doing it so they aren't about to stop over some quaint notion of honor or morality. They don't give a fleeting damn about who is hurt in the process of raking in the cash. You look at what someone like Hannity or Carlson or Jones makes and it is just nauseating.

      As far as I'm concerned the awards are nowhere near large enough. And they should get them sentenced to public flogging on top of it.

      • Careful, you're skating close to defamation yourself. "They don't give a fleeting damn about who is hurt in the process of raking in the cash" is, oddly enough, nearly even the same TYPE of comment which started this entire 12 year saga in the courts.

        • Re:Recurring theme (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Mr. Dollar Ton ( 5495648 ) on Friday February 09, 2024 @07:28AM (#64227030)

          Careful, you're skating close to defamation yourself.

          There is the little difference that the OP's comment can be shown to be true, based even on judgements by courts (Jones, Fox/Carlson, this guy Stain and many others), so it is unlikely that anyone will even consider suing OP.

          The comment that you think is "nearly even the same TYPE", on the other hand, just got hit with $1m in punitive damages because it was false, and that was proven in a court.

          In summary, it generally works like this: true statements - not defamation or libel - no damages. False statements - defamation or libel - damages.

        • It could only possibly be defamation if it weren't very obviously true.
    • So yeah, free speech is great so long as you can pay the piper.

      I really despise this really common logical fallacy (ambiguity) that people spout about rights. This statement is patently false. Lying, libel, and slander are not free speech. Nobody has the right to libel or slander another person. You do not have a right to lie, especially not about another person, intentionally, in ways that damage them.

      You can say damaging things about someone if they are true. If Mann had been compared to Ancel Keyes, that would have been accurate and defensible. The hockey stick mo

      • The hockey stick model was terrible.

        "Model"? Do you even know the fuck about what you are talking about? Tell me more about this "hockey stick model".

    • by mjwx ( 966435 )

      Fox News - ordered to pay $787 million [cnn.com] after knowingly and repeatedly lying about Dominion Voting machines. Needless to say, the tabloid continues to insist it did nothing wrong, that its free speech was attacked and oh yeah, by settling, we don't have to go to trial and have all the other lies recorded for posterity.

      To be fair, Fox settled this case out of court. They paid Dominion US$787 million to avoid going to court. A shame really, I would have loved to see the dirt Fox would have been forced to dish on itself that was worth 3/4 of a billion dollars. We might still see it with Smartmatic.

    • To be fair to Habba, only he had to do after the first trial is never say anything about Carroll to the public ever again. He chose not to be silent. Yes, she was a terrible lawyer but at that point, no competent lawyer would represent him. His first lawyer Tacopina withdrew before the second case. We can only guess why he did but I would think a client not listening to their lawyer would be grounds for the lawyer to quit the client.
    • And then there's that whole CNN / Nick Sandmann thing.
  • by Mr. Dollar Ton ( 5495648 ) on Friday February 09, 2024 @05:20AM (#64226878)

    I heard a lot of opinions the other day from slashdot legal experts with GED in law about how Dr. Mann is going to lose.

    Will y'all apologize to the doctor now, or will you continue to spew bullshit instead?

    • I heard a lot of opinions the other day from slashdot legal experts with GED in law about how Dr. Mann is going to lose.

      Will y'all apologize to the doctor now, or will you continue to spew bullshit instead?

      Wingnut: **Clicks**, opion No. 2 ...

  • Based on the outcomes of some of Trump's recent defamation lawsuits I would expect the punitive damages to be significantly reduced if not entirely eliminated. My understanding is that courts don't generally look favorably on punitive damages that are more than a factor of ~3x larger than the actual damages. 1,000,000x probably won't fly.
    • Remind me, which of Trump's recent defamation lawsuits had lowered or no damages awarded in an appeal or by a judge overruling the jury?
  • Is this the Nobel Prize winning Dr. Mann?

    Washington Examiner writer Thomas Richard sent an email to Geir Lundestad, director of the Nobel Institute, pointing out how Mann claims to be a Nobel Prize winner. Richard asked if Mann’s Nobel Prize claim is true. Lundestad responded:

    “1) Michael Mann has never been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.

    2) He did not receive any personal certificate. He has taken the diploma awarded in 2007 to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (and to Al Gore) and ma

    • Better watch out, or you'll be sued. Got $100k for a lawyer to fight it?

    • Washington Examiner writer Thomas Richard sent an email to Geir Lundestad, director of the Nobel Institute, pointing out how Mann claims to be a Nobel Prize winner. Richard asked if Mann’s Nobel Prize claim is true. Lundestad responded:

      Has Dr Mann ever claimed he won a Nobel prize? As a scientist, it would be utterly stupid to claim to win a prize that every one in the field would know was never won. Or is it a straw man argument from the Washington Examiner to take a made-up claim to knock it down?

      • Washington Examiner writer Thomas Richard sent an email to Geir Lundestad, director of the Nobel Institute, pointing out how Mann claims to be a Nobel Prize winner. Richard asked if Mann’s Nobel Prize claim is true. Lundestad responded:

        Has Dr Mann ever claimed he won a Nobel prize? As a scientist, it would be utterly stupid to claim to win a prize that every one in the field would know was never won. Or is it a straw man argument from the Washington Examiner to take a made-up claim to knock it down?

        It's in his bio in his book https://junkscience.com/2021/0... [junkscience.com]

        • Dude your link never says he claimed he won a Nobel Prize. It says he won a Tyler award "often called 'the Nobel Prize for the Environment'". Even the quotes are there. That is a classic example of straw manning which you demonstrated.
          • Dude your link never says he claimed he won a Nobel Prize. It says he won a Tyler award "often called 'the Nobel Prize for the Environment'". Even the quotes are there. That is a classic example of straw manning which you demonstrated.

            No, you didn't look at the second picture which was his bio in his book. I can't post the picture.
            Text says: "In 2007, he jointly received the Nobel Peace Prize along with other scientists who participated in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change".

            He did not.

            • If you think that authors write the blurb on the back of their books, I have a bridge to sell you.
            • Dude your link never says he claimed he won a Nobel Prize. It says he won a Tyler award "often called 'the Nobel Prize for the Environment'". Even the quotes are there. That is a classic example of straw manning which you demonstrated.

              No, you didn't look at the second picture which was his bio in his book. I can't post the picture. Text says: "In 2007, he jointly received the Nobel Peace Prize along with other scientists who participated in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change".

              He did not.

              Or to put it another way: why would he write "he did" and not "I did"? Or are you confused about pronouns and cases?

              • Dude your link never says he claimed he won a Nobel Prize. It says he won a Tyler award "often called 'the Nobel Prize for the Environment'". Even the quotes are there. That is a classic example of straw manning which you demonstrated.

                No, you didn't look at the second picture which was his bio in his book. I can't post the picture.
                Text says: "In 2007, he jointly received the Nobel Peace Prize along with other scientists who participated in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change".

                He did not.

                Or to put it another way: why would he write "he did" and not "I did"? Or are you confused about pronouns and cases?

                It's cute that you think he would not have proof-read the bio on his book. Regardless here's his own Facebook post with the doctored certificate. He added his name to the bottom of it. https://www.facebook.com/photo... [facebook.com]

                • Oh an unverifiable photo on Facebook. That trumps every known fact ever.
                • Holy batshit insane Batman. That Facebook image doesn't say he claims he he won a Noble Prize, it literally says that the IPCC gave him an official certificate that acknowledges him as "contributing to the award of the Nobel Peace Prize". What the fuck is so hard about that to understand? More proof that most denialist have a brain malfunction. Or are you one of those who lie for profit?
                  • A person tells the actual truth; it cannot be! Next thing this guy will say that Tom Brady lied when he said he won 6 Superbowls. And this guy will show pictures of him holding 6 different trophies as "proof" Brady lied about winning 6 Superbowls.
            • Text says: "In 2007, he jointly received the Nobel Peace Prize along with other scientists who participated in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change".

              Spoiler alert: the IPCC received a Nobel Prize in 2007 [nobelprize.org]. He was a part of the IPCC so this 100% true. So what are you claiming? That he lied about a verifiable fact?

      • Maybe James Taylor can convince you:

        https://heartland.org/opinion/... [heartland.org]
        • Be still, my lying heartland institute.
          • "In court papers filed in connection with a defamation suit, Mann claims he was “awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.” "

            The messenger matters? This was also discussed during the trial. It's a matter of public record.
            • Well, in court papers filed in connection with a sexual abuse suit, you claimed to have killed Abraham Lincoln. It's part of the public record. Prove it isn't.

              And yes, when a right wing "think tank" famous for lying claims something, it sure matters.

            • "In court papers filed in connection with a defamation suit, Mann claims he was “awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.”

              Citation needed. Or are you going to straw man this?

              • I told you where I got it. Do you really expect me to go research it for you? Is your theory that I'm lying about something so incredibly specific and checkable?

                Oh well. Since I'm not terribly busy today I went ahead and typed Mann Steyn Nobel Prize into Google for you.

                https://www.nationalreview.com... [nationalreview.com]

                In his 2012 legal filing against Steyn and Rand Simberg, a scholar who was formerly with the Competitive Enterprise Institute, Mann claimed to have been a recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, a claim th
    • Dude, you are confusing Mann with famous Climate Change Denier Christopher Monckton, who claimed to be both a Lord and a Nobel Peace Prize laureate, but is neither. And like all deniers he claims to have a clue about climate science but doesn't.
  • The pedophile thing was more of a dig at Penn State. The point was Penn State covered up for a pedophile for decades in the Penn State child abuse scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] so covering up for science fraud would be nothing.

  • Let that be a lesson to anyone who criticizes a climate "scientist."

God doesn't play dice. -- Albert Einstein

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