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Encryption Privacy Security United States

James Comey: the Man Who Wants To Outlaw Encryption 241

Patrick O'Neill writes: "There has not been a tradeoff between liberty and security in our response to terrorism in this country and in our efforts to offer security to the people of the United States," said James Comey, now the director of the FBI. Comey was the number two man in the Department of Justice during the Bush years when NSA and law enforcement surveillance of Americans grew to unprecedented heights. Now he's pushing to stop encryption by default on Apple and Android devices.
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James Comey: the Man Who Wants To Outlaw Encryption

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  • Seriously...? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Nostromo21 ( 1947840 ) on Thursday May 07, 2015 @11:38PM (#49644599)

    And this guy is the director of the FBI...for real? :-/

    • Re:Seriously...? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07, 2015 @11:51PM (#49644637)

      When it's your job to catch bad guys, everyone starts looking like a bad guy. And then after a while you think that only bad guys use encryption, because good people don't have anything to hide. Soon you think it's okay to read everyone's personal communications without a warrant "for the greater good."

      He probably also thinks the evil bit [ietf.org] is an excellent idea.

      • Re:Seriously...? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by davester666 ( 731373 ) on Friday May 08, 2015 @12:53AM (#49644823) Journal

        Everyone's broken some law. He's just going through the list of people in the US.

        But it's hard to go out and investigate, come up with leads, run them down. Instead, you just have all the major ISPs [wired and wireless] track who is using encrypted communications, and report to you their name, address and current physical location. Then you make up a reason to search through their home, financial records and internet history [thanks for the data, NSA], and you'll find something.

        • Re:Seriously...? (Score:5, Informative)

          by monkeyzoo ( 3985097 ) on Friday May 08, 2015 @04:25AM (#49645329)

          A good passage...

          “The FBI makes this proposal to look like they’re looking for a simple law to add a simple feature,” says Robert Graham, CEO at Errata Security. “But when you look into it, what they’re really asking for is dramatic, it’s a huge thing. They’d need to outlaw certain kinds of code. Possessing crypto code would become illegal.”

          Ask hackers and other cybersecurity experts, and they'll tell you that the entire idea of a “backdoor” is a bureaucratic fantasy with little basis in technical reality.

          “You can't build a backdoor that only the good guys can walk through,” cryptographer and author Bruce Schneier explained. “Encryption protects against cybercriminals, industrial competitors, the Chinese secret police, and the FBI. You're either vulnerable to eavesdropping by any of them, or you're secure from eavesdropping from all of them.”

          • “The FBI makes this proposal to look like they’re looking for a simple law to add a simple feature,” says Robert Graham, CEO at Errata Security. “But when you look into it, what they’re really asking for is dramatic, it’s a huge thing. They’d need to outlaw certain kinds of code. Possessing crypto code would become illegal.”

            Yes, that's the goal. And it's made much easier by the new FCC regulations, which protect only "lawful" content. There is no need to outlaw cryptography - the rules don't use the word "legal", which would be a much higher burden. Instead, you should specify what is allowed, and everything else is subject to blocking. Devices, too, are regulated under the new regime. So, for instance, if your phone uses encryption that is not decipherable by the ISP and/or the central authority (licensed security provid

          • If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will be using it.

            And no, you won't find me using it. Here is a cute picture of a puppy. Why not put it on your webpage? I can guarantee you that you'll generate lots of traffic with it. Mostly from people I know, who want to look at cute pictures of puppies.

        • by paiute ( 550198 )

          Everyone's broken some law.

          If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him. -Attributed to Cardinal Richelieu

          • Provided enough laws, everyone's a criminal. Why do you think we get this influx of silly, outright unexecutable laws? It's for when we find someone who spits in our soup so we can fling some shit at him 'til something sticks.

      • Re:Seriously...? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by mark-t ( 151149 ) <markt AT nerdflat DOT com> on Friday May 08, 2015 @12:55AM (#49644827) Journal
        Good people have plenty to hide.... primarily from bad people, mind you, but plenty to to hide nonetheless.
        • Re:Seriously...? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 08, 2015 @02:05AM (#49645001)

          And some of those bad people work for the government. What's very disturbing to me is the NSA, CIA, and FBI are now shopping their services around to every podunk police department and also largish corporations. With what appears to be no vetting or tracking how the information is used. Nothing but systematic abuse will come out of this.

          • by mark-t ( 151149 )

            And some of those bad people work for the government

            Even *IF* that weren't the case, it wouldn't matter at all. You see, if one already knows that the government has keys that can be used to read your private data, then even *IF* you could hypothetically completely trust the government to not do anything unethical, there is absolutely *NO measure of certainty that someone with less noble or honorable intentions could not be secretly utilizing the exact same mechanisms (even if illegally) to monitor your co

        • by Skapare ( 16644 )
          and Anonymous Coward has MUCH to hide.
      • When it's your job to catch bad guys, everyone starts looking like a bad guy

        Anyone who follows the above approach ain't not going to catch many crooks

        You simply do not catch crooks by hammering everybody and their dogs

        Top crime investigators throughout history don't treat everybody like criminal. Instead, they put themselves in the shoes of the criminals so that they can get to see what the criminals see, think what the criminals think, and understand what the criminals gonna do next ... and then all they have to do is to set a trap for those criminals

        And in the case of this so-cal

        • Maybe he didn't see the Sherlock Holmes movie you did.

        • by TheGratefulNet ( 143330 ) on Friday May 08, 2015 @08:11AM (#49646155)

          I'm not sure why so many of you think that the fbi (etc) actually CARE about solving crimes.

          lets be honest, these jobs attract sociopaths. funny (yeah, right) that these are the very people we have trusted to catch those very kinds of people.

          quick question: what's the diff between a cop and a thug? ans: one has the legal right to bash your head.

          these 'folks' all entered for the wrong reason. if you have any experience with human pyschology you know this. authority jobs attract the worst kinds of people. they enter the field to abuse their power. and they do a 'good job' of it, in almost all cases.

          so, they are there to enjoy their power and to watch citizens suffer and plead with them for their freedom and lives. super power trips.

          whatever makes them MORE powerful is what they seek. that's why they are all so totally for any kind of spying. it does not save us, it has never helped us but they all seem to enjoy their little LOVEINT spying and all the rest.

          and so, when they ask for 'stop using encryption' its not because they think it helps bad guys; it basically stops them from having THEIR FUN at your expense.

          everyone here has run into bullies who simply enjoy knocking heads and punching people (or worse). I submit that 90% of the staff of any of those three letter agencies all share the same sociopathic personality trait. they may not be physically big guys or big bullies but they all have the bully 'respect mah authority!' attitude and would simply love to make trouble for you if you don't cower in their presence.

          the whole lot of them should be hanged as traitors. and then we can rethink what kinds of people we should HAVE in positions of high authority. what we have now is all the wrong people with all the wrong reasons for being there.

          • by Maritz ( 1829006 )

            and so, when they ask for 'stop using encryption' its not because they think it helps bad guys; it basically stops them from having THEIR FUN at your expense.

            I agree with this; I honestly do not think that anyone making the 'terrizm/thinkofthechildren' arguments are being intellectually honest. They want to snoop and they'll say whatever the fuck it takes to be allowed to do it. I believe that's the reason why the whole terrorism thing is so overblown despite being, on a geopolitical level at least, a small problem in the west.

        • by jythie ( 914043 )
          You are confusing top criminal investigators in fiction and top criminal investigators in the real world. In the real world, promotions and office are based off prosecuting the 'right' people and not being caught at being 'wrong'. The most effect (and rewarded) way of accomplishing this is to make sure your conviction record matches 'what everyone knows' regarding who commits crimes.
    • by d'baba ( 1134261 )
      So yeah, we finally have somebody in the government who embraces 'opt-in'.
      • by TiggertheMad ( 556308 ) on Friday May 08, 2015 @01:31AM (#49644907) Journal
        James Comey is

        BWgSZ9ZYLw5I kmoBvJiRvnO7uQU9x6NoYlKBOaO vmb3df8lNwkgeFc30rNPB9kh09Fr61CxW24IkH3YWKRe8H YdTd8YHzpRBMQJcwyxn+O3cUPQ4sP2dN4GEA/9v17IipHz12Bon8o7dc0o8UaOj3tl Pr19cq3meoufARx7PLJ0SKclb3LG7SxW+GTISS1cRGpDRr d0NvdC8lHHkfyDx5YGnIp DUgQa9lMCpQbHSln40 LCosKrQamj4Ni27wIbikaSWV+IiDsn jyfc7eLKlq QSOgCFzMsBglGzC2+j9HifrKU/z9Fzc8HZ3UiaQahMiOj EnohZdYQqCdPAmeZlEkK/qaZBtwA13A BLrbolhR0C/NSgvA hPZzh7oj33/LHPY8tC TP7zXULYP/RsccmOc aS88VzbzOAaRwEf9KCu1YtKICdVyGlYhn5IN4q vM80+vNtkc0QiRUdKW

        And I'll tell him that again to his FACE!
        • You might want to check twice what you're talking to. Considering just what he's saying, he might be talking with the other end.

    • He's a lawyer, a theologian and a chemist.

      You would think at least the chemist would realize this is impossible.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward

        He's a lawyer, a theologian and a chemist.

        You would think at least the chemist would realize this is impossible.

        He sounds like a terrorist according to the government definition. Weapons of Mass Destruction + Religion = terrorist. The fact he is a lawyer raises further suspicions.

      • Hmm... a religious person who know his way 'round chemicals and who also knows how to avoid having his home searched...

        Why didn't that trigger a profiling alarm?

    • by delt0r ( 999393 )
      What you expect? This is a government agency that vets people based on nothing more that reading tea leaves (aka lie detectors!). It's kinda hard to take them seriously.
    • Ever heard of Hoover? Guy ran the FBI like the Secret Police, spying on anyone and everyone of even the slightest significance regardless of their actually having committed any crime.

      America loves to say "innocent until proven guilty" but our Law Enforcement and Intelligence Agencies have always taken the stance that everyone is a criminal

      Why should we let criminals have secure and encrypted communication?

      • by jythie ( 914043 )
        The scary part about Hoover was that it was not just 'anyone and everyone', but targeted specifically at anyone who deviated culturally from the 'good guys'. If you were in the privileged group, you did not get watched. If you were part of any other group and were attempting to act above your station, that was a threat to national security.
    • Re:Seriously...? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Xyrus ( 755017 ) on Friday May 08, 2015 @07:41AM (#49645915) Journal

      I have an idea. How about instead of wiping his ass with the Constitution, burning it, then shitting on the ashes for good measure, maybe this Stalinist assclown could try to protect us from some real threats to the American people.

      Terrorism? Fucking idiot. Terrorism isn't a threat. Heart disease is a threat. Obesity and complications related to obesity are a threat. Car accidents are a threat. Cancer is a threat.

      In fact, just about everything in life is more of a threat to the average American than terrorism, from accidentally dropping an electrical appliance in the tub while you're in it to falling down the fucking stairs. Even getting struck by lightning is more of a fucking threat.

      Terrorism? This guy needs to get some fucking perspective.Terrorism is an excuse. It's a cash cow. It's a blunt object to club over the collective head of the populace. The fear of terrorism is doing more to destroy this country than any terrorist or terrorist organization could ever hope to accomplish on their own. In fact, if terrorists really want to bring down America all they need to do is open cheap shops of deep fried donut wrapped sausages and watch us die by the millions from strokes and heart attacks. They can laugh their asses off watching us drop like flies while we chant "protect us from the terrorists!".

      Sad.

      • Re:Seriously...? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Maritz ( 1829006 ) on Friday May 08, 2015 @09:33AM (#49646761)
        Agreed entirely. And to rub salt in that particular wound, by cheerleading for the terroists' competency they're making the fight against them go much worse. Terrorism thrives on being taken seriously, and their interests/incentives align exactly with western politicians on that.
      • by jythie ( 914043 )
        I wish I had mod points to spend ^_^

        Humans tend to be terrible at weighing actual risks.
    • It is law enforcement's job to try to make catching bad guys easier.
      It is up to the community to make sure law enforcement has only what it needs.

      American Justice system is based on the ideal, that it is better for a criminal to go scott free, vs. an innocent getting convicted.

      However we let fear of criminals take over, so we want the bad guy caught, even at the expense of our own freedoms.

  • More and more surveillance of Americans instead of the supposed enemies. This is the US after 9/11 and the Boston bombing. Welcome to 1984.

    • by Jason Levine ( 196982 ) on Friday May 08, 2015 @07:44AM (#49645935) Homepage

      Notice that it's the "War on Terror" and not the "War on Terrorists."

      Step 1: Government instills fear into the populace. (e.g. There are terrorists behind every corner waiting to blow you up!)
      Step 2: The Government wages war on the terror it created by making the people feel safe (while actually gathering more powers for itself).
      Step 3: Repeat Steps 1 & 2 until "terror" is destroyed. (Which, since they keep creating more terror to combat, mean repeat ad infinitum.)

  • correct (Score:5, Insightful)

    by roman_mir ( 125474 ) on Thursday May 07, 2015 @11:41PM (#49644611) Homepage Journal

    Correct, there has not been a tradeoff between liberty and security in our response to terrorism in this country and in our efforts to offer security to the people of the United States. What there has been is a complete and utter disregard for liberty and destruction of individual rights. Forget tradeoffs, the Constitution was abolished, that is what happened.

    • Since when did law enforcement or intelligence agencies ever care about people's Constitutional rights? Are you just horribly naive of history?

  • Liberty? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Etherwalk ( 681268 ) on Thursday May 07, 2015 @11:42PM (#49644615)

    False, although mostly true so far. Notably, the intrusiveness of airport security has gone way up, for the big example on the false side.

    Mostly what there's been so far has been a tradeoff between *privacy* and security. As in none of the former.

    I feel for the guy--his job is to prevent another 9/11. He gets the call if a city blows up. And he probably really cares about defending liberty.

    But unfortunately, pervasive surveillance without amazingly well-engineered procedural oversight and security will inevitably lead to tyranny. Anyone who doesn't see that isn't stepping far enough back. He's concerned about the next five years; I'm concerned about the next twenty or fifty.

    I suppose there's an AI issue, too--a singularity is going to get into this data in a few decades. I can't predict what an AI a hundred times smarter than any of us might do with it.

    • Re:Liberty? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by swillden ( 191260 ) <shawn-ds@willden.org> on Friday May 08, 2015 @12:31AM (#49644757) Journal
      In order to trade off some of A to get some of B, you have to actually get some of B. In this case, we've given a lot of A and gotten nothing for it.
      • by Taco Cowboy ( 5327 ) on Friday May 08, 2015 @05:53AM (#49645521) Journal

        In order to trade off some of A to get some of B, you have to actually get some of B. In this case, we've given a lot of A and gotten nothing for it

        I have read many comments here and what you have said is so very true I just need to add to what you have written

        I came from China

        I left China back in the early 1970's, way back when the entire Chinese society was in a turmoil, where nobody can live in peace because the social contract between the government and the people had broken down

        A political struggle at the top echelon resulted in a power-struggle at every level, and power grab was everywhere ... the so-called 'Red Guard' was a by-product of power-grabbing exercises, mostly at the local level

        Anyway, people at large in China had no say --- they kept on losing their liberty, their livelihood, even their lives, --- with some driven into madness and many simply committed suicide since they couldn't take it anymore

        To put it in simple terms, to the average Chinese citizens, what they had gone through in between the late 1950's and the early 1970's was that everything they had was taken away, just like that ... yep, without any tradeoff

        Now that I am an American, I am alarmed at the current development within the United States of America

        The people in the USA will be facing the same thing the people in China faced, if nothing is being done to stop TPTB

        What happened back in China was that there was no one who could stop Mao. Zhou En Lai tried his best to slow Mao's incessant hunger for power but he just couldn't muster enough strength to halt Mao in his track. All Zhou could do was to do patchworks here and there

        Even Zhou suffered greatly during the social turmoil. His own daughter was brutally slaughtered by Jiang Qin, that feisty wife of Mao, and even with his own daughter slaughtered, Zhou couldn't do anything

        The experience from China should be a lesson to the Americans ... that is, even if you have someone who has conscience INSIDE the power structure, it is still NOT ENOUGH when TPTB turns ugly

        And if the Americans don't do something now --- frankly, even now, it may be too late --- they and their children will eventually be facing a similar fate the Chinese faced some 50 years ago

        I certainly don't wish that to America, my adopted country, but I am afraid that too many of the Americans are way too brainwashed to be able to comprehend what is going on and what is going to come

    • by Dog-Cow ( 21281 )

      The AI issue is irrelevant because it's never going to happen. It's certainly not going to happen within a few decades. You might want to consider not looking like a complete and utter moron.

    • by mark-t ( 151149 )
      Another 9/11 isn't possible anytime in the foreseeable future. it was only as effective for the terrorists as it was that one time because the notion of doing something like that had simply never occurred to most people before then. Now, it is a firmly entrenched part of the North American mindset. and you can be certain that it will never happen again, at least as long as people remember what happened on that day.
      • Exactly this. It would likely take the terrorists at least a generation of "pre-911 hijackings" (where you fly to another country, have your hijacker make a big political statement, and then you all go free unharmed) before another 9-11 would be possible. The hijackers weren't even able to complete their 9-11 plans. By the time United Airlines Flight 93 was en route to the White House or Capital Building, passengers found out what had happened with the other 3 planes. Knowing that this wasn't your norma

    • by Meneth ( 872868 )

      I suppose there's an AI issue, too--a singularity is going to get into this data in a few decades. I can't predict what an AI a hundred times smarter than any of us might do with it.

      Don't worry about that. :) If the AI is Friendly, it won't hurt us no matter how much it knows, and if it's Unfriendly, it won't matter how much it knows; it would hurt us just as bad anyway.

  • by Frobnicator ( 565869 ) on Thursday May 07, 2015 @11:44PM (#49644625) Journal

    From TFA: Comey said in an Oct. 2014 speech "Justice may be denied because of a locked phone or an encrypted hard drive." I can somewhat understand that from an investigator's perspective.

    But my take is that lots of people are constantly attacking my devices, from the petty skript kiddies to corporations wanting secrets to the NSA who wants everything. Most of the attacks never see justice, they are never prosecuted. There is no justice in most cases, only criminals who break in.

    If my devices are properly hardened in advance, I don't need to wait for the government to apply "justice".

    • "Justice may be denied because of a opaque walls in your home or wearing clothes... people need to think about how their weird need for privacy affects our ability to do our jobs. Why should we expend effort to get better when the general public can expend even more effort to help us do our own job?"--Comey
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday May 07, 2015 @11:53PM (#49644639)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • by Kjella ( 173770 )

      because we might need to look in your house for terrorists. Also get rid of locks on car doors because we might want to randomly search your car

      Or because we believe there's a kidnapping victim in your house and we got a warrant. The cops would have a problem if every door was the only way in to an unbreakable fort and they couldn't compel the key because it's in your mind and protected by the 5th amendment. Real world analogies fail because in the real world, they would get blowtorches, bolt cutters and whatnot to execute the search one way or the other. The lock will stand up to casual burglars, but not a full-out assault.

      That's the shade of gray

      • The cops don't really need backdoors to security systems. The proper way is to use cryptanalysis to break those cyphers. It's a hard task but government has access to supercomputers. They don't need backdoor to all ciphers just like they don't need master key to all locks. Their push against cryptography is irrational and will in fact compromise security. No encryption means easy access to credit card credentials and what not for criminals. Backdoors mean that criminals can use it too. Only matter of time b
        • The proper way is to use cryptanalysis to break those cyphers. It's a hard task but government has access to supercomputers.

          Remember the part where some things are supposed to be so complicated it is supposed to take billions of years to crack with computers far better than is possible now?

      • It's pretty simple, they can crack the crypto. It's expensive and should be reserved for the most extreme cases. Sure that makes his job harder, making a police forces job harder is a good thing nearly allways. The real bad guys are smart enough not to trust default base level crypto, code books and OTP's are still unbreakable assuming they were made and used correctly. Hell code books look like normal unencrypted communications.

        This is about low hanging fruit, turning a car stop into a full digital dum

  • I never understand why people consider it news when someone takes a position that is 100% predictable given who they are.

  • so they can have access to and control your life. Fuck those who want to control anyone with laws that go above natural and common sense laws.

  • The government has all the power here. They can easily OFAC the crap out of any security chip that can't be owned by side channel attacks. Judging from laptop TPM scene where vendors have gone as far as enumerating list of vectors they don't even try to defend against... seems to me like open season for anyone with the resources to pull it off.

    Anything protected directly by user entry into a smart phone is bound to have no usable entropy by itself anyway.

    Failing this we have baseband processors with full read write access to OS memory to reduce material costs. I would be surprised if there was a consumer baseband on the planet without capability of being field "upgraded" by Agent Smith... at least from various accounts of ancient feature phones being turned into bugs.

    While I don't doubt encryption will make things more difficult if/when it catches on you can bet the feds will invest in beating it and they will win at least for the subset of people who don't really care about security.

    I have a feeling the bigger issue with ubiquitous encryption for TLAs is that when everyone uses encryption then the ability to use the fact that encryption was used to justify suspicion evaporates... that's what I think they are really afraid of.

  • once again (Score:5, Interesting)

    by camg188 ( 932324 ) on Friday May 08, 2015 @01:00AM (#49644841)
    A law that will affect innocent citizens and dumb criminals. The criminals the FBI is after will probably be aware of it and manually turn on encryption.
  • > "There has not been a tradeoff between liberty and security in our response to terrorism in this country and in our efforts to offer security to the people of the United States," said James Comey, now the director of the FBI. Comey was the number two man in the Department of Justice during the Bush years when NSA and law enforcement surveillance of Americans grew to unprecedented heights. Now he's pushing to stop encryption by default on Apple and Android devices.

    Asshole.

  • by Skapare ( 16644 ) on Friday May 08, 2015 @06:34AM (#49645613) Homepage
    ... with people like this in control of anything.
  • We can play the word games too. Instead of "encryption", let us start calling that kind of computing a "baroque data formatting" or something else. I am very confident coders can play much better than lawyers.
  • "There has not been a tradeoff between liberty and security..."

    We have no way of validating this. So, based on previous experience, it is a lie.

  • You fail to realize that peaceful democratic political change sometimes happens behind closed doors, like hopefully, the firing of you.
    Read the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and check again to see if what you are doing agrees, or if you should go somewhere else.

  • Go suck an egg, Mr. Comey.

  • by davidwr ( 791652 ) on Friday May 08, 2015 @11:10AM (#49647763) Homepage Journal

    "There has not been a tradeoff between liberty and security in our response to terrorism in this country and in our efforts to offer security to the people of the United States,

    Last night the parking-lot exit from one of the terminals at Dallas/Fort Worth Airport was flooded.

    This meant there were now only 2 ways to get out of the terminal: walk through the rain, or take the tram that connects the terminals.

    The tram was inside security and most passengers had already existed security, either to get their bags or for other reasons.

    Prior to 9/11, they had the liberty to re-enter security, take the tram to another terminal, and arrange for their ride to pick them up there.

    Thanks to a "tradeoff between liberty and security" they were forced to either sit in the terminal for several hours while the flood cleared or walk out in the rain to get to another terminal (the buses that connect the terminals couldn't operate due to the floods).

  • by StubNewellsFarm ( 1084965 ) on Friday May 08, 2015 @03:23PM (#49649921)
    He's totally wrong about this issue. But this is the guy who stood up when Bush administration thugs (Card and Gonzales) tried to get the Justice Department to sign off on their warrantless wiretapping program. He refused, prevented them from going around him and later threatened to resign: http://www.washingtonpost.com/... [washingtonpost.com] You can disagree with him on encryption (and I do), but this is not a guy who has no respect for the Constitution.

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