Wired On 3-D Printers As Fraud Enablers 207
An anonymous reader writes Citing a report from the Gartner Group estimating $100 billion in intellectual property losses within five years, Joshua Greenbaum warns of "the threat of a major surge in counterfeiting" as cheap 3-D printers get more sophisticated materials. Writing for Wired, Greenbaum argues that preventing counterfeiting "promises to be a growth market," and suggests that besides updating IP laws, possible solutions include nanomaterials for "watermarking" authentic copies or even the regulation of 3-D printing materials. Major retailers like Amazon are already offering 3-D print-on-demand products — though right now their selection is mostly limited to novelties like customized bobbleheads and Christmas ornaments shaped like cannabis leaves. Apropos: Smithonian Magazine has an article that makes a good companion piece to this one on the long political history of the copy machine, which raised many of the same issues being rediscovered in the context of 3-D printing.
Note that this is a little different from software (Score:5, Informative)
For software, generally speaking the copy is exactly the same as the original. No one collects software (only their medium), and its unlimited.
Even with 3d printers, objects are limited (you can't copy them indefinitely, you'll run out of material), and right now at least, until star trek replicators happen, they're not the same as the original (unless the original was 3d printed too i guess). There can be difference in qualities, and the originals may be collectibles... just like a painting can be replicated, but its the original that's worth something.
So being able to tell the originals from the copies apart kind of matters this time around.
Re: Note that this is a little different from soft (Score:5, Informative)
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I was a bit surprised that the person would tell so much to a random stranger.
Why? Do you think some random stranger was going to report them to the Imaginary Property Police?
I doubt you'll find one random stranger in a thousand who thinks there's anything wrong with what this guy is doing, and they probably work for the Imaginary Property industry.
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If they're selling them as realistic copies, then is there even a problem? Is there copyright on 100 year old paintings?
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Mickey Mouse is 85 and that little shit is still under copyright. Most likely will be for the rest of time, too.
I do get the point though. I see nothing wrong with making a copy of a physical object and selling it, if he value of the object is it's originality. Making copies of physical consumer items and selling them is, and should remain, illegal.
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That's not an argument against selling copies, that's an argument against claiming that they're the originals. So long as the buyer is aware of who actually made the item there is no fraud.
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No, but there's a copyright on photos of 100 year old paintings. It's one reason many galleries forbid photography. So long as they have the original and no high-resolution scans exist, they alone can offer the authentic art-viewing experience.
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Re: Note that this is a little different from soft (Score:4, Insightful)
I have to adapt or pretend the market hasn't changed and sue everyone (while spending even more money on not making my product).
Or you can pay the government to pass a law banning the cheap alternatives because 'public safety!', which is usually much cheaper. This is exactly what's likely to happen with, say, people printing new car parts on a 3D printer. Clearly that's a risk to 'public safety!' because those parts haven't been tested like the real parts. And as for printing complete cars that haven't been crash-tested and may not meet CAFE standards...
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There was a contractor who was making highway guard rails who decided to go cheap and changed the design without permission linky [dot.gov] and another case linky [thelambertfirm.com]
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How does this allow *someone* to maintain a monopolistic price advantage? Dude, ur anti-american.
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I was a bit surprised that the person would tell so much to a random stranger.
Tell me, how much can you make with an unauthorised 1:1 copy of Saint Pauls Cathedral or Buckingham Palace?
Do you have room for either one in your garden?
Re:Note that this is a little different from softw (Score:5, Insightful)
There can be difference in qualities, and the originals may be collectibles...
I don't think people are seriously worried about someone scanning some priceless marble figurine, printing a copy and selling it for $100,000,000 to some very stupid collector who doesn't notice that it is made rather roughly from plastic.
They're more worried about someone scanning a $20 Popular Cartoon Character(R)(C)(TM) doll and printing a copy for their sprog, without the House of Mouse receiving their rightful tithe under the 2016 "lets keep Mickey copyrighted forever" act.
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Or course. I've got a 3D printer and the kids love it. You don't have to look far to find models of popular toys, and they can be envy of the other kids at school if they're the only ones with glow-in-the-dark Minecraft Creepers (glow in the dark filament is pretty cool!)
Just another case of technology running ahead of the existing rules.
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For software, generally speaking the copy is exactly the same as the original. No one collects software (only their medium), and its unlimited.
I have known people in the warez scene who would beg to differ with you. They seemed to have pride in how many cracked software titles they had, regardless of whether or not they actually had any use for them.
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How many people prided themselves on how many albums or CDs or DVDs they had? How many of them now just use Netflix and Pandora/Spotify/etc.?
We craved having lots of media because there wasn't a way to easily get it otherwise. Now, nobody has to buy (or copy) 1000s of sources to be able to consume those sources.
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For software, generally speaking the copy is exactly the same as the original. No one collects software (only their medium), and its unlimited.
Even with 3d printers, objects are limited (you can't copy them indefinitely, you'll run out of material), and right now at least, until star trek replicators happen, they're not the same as the original (unless the original was 3d printed too i guess). There can be difference in qualities, and the originals may be collectibles... just like a painting can be replicated, but its the original that's worth something.
So being able to tell the originals from the copies apart kind of matters this time around.
No it's not. If I can copy the thing you're selling with a few clicks of a keyboard, you don't really have a product. I fully support inventors getting rewarded for their work, but that's NOT what the patent system does.
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My point wasn't about devices/patents, but pieces of art/copyrights (ie: miniatures). Its pretty damn easy to copy it after the artist did the original design/color/etc and someone made the matching 3d model.
Re:Note that this is a little different from softw (Score:5, Insightful)
Who will fear this the most is companies who charge outrageous prices for cheap plastic parts. I.e. exactly those parts that can easily and cheaply be reproduced with 3D printing. Just like with printer ink and coffee maker capsules there are various areas where cross financing the product with insanely pricey spare parts is the norm rather than the exception. It's easy to pull off, too. Invent something where a plastic part is a key element to operation, that plastic part is consumer serviceable (that part is optional), trivial to make and weighed down with enough patents that nobody dares making something even similar. And of course, being plastic, it's subject to wear and tear and has to be replaced now and then. In such a situation, it becomes trivial to sell the appliance cheaply, even under cost, as long as you know that people will have to buy that plastic thingamajig again and again.
That only works as long as there is no cheaper option for the user, of course.
Given what people use them for, I'd say no. (Score:5, Insightful)
Who cares if somebody rips off somebody else's cellphone case design?
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I'm more worried about collectibles. Its niche, but a niche a lot of people on this board probably feel for. Its bad enough with figures and stuff, trying not to get ripped off at conventions or online... Soon it will be rampant.
That said, the vast majority of use will probably be for commodities anyway... Whoops, all my forks are in the dishwasher, time to 3d print one (when the printers get fast enough to make stuff in a pinch)
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Already rampant.
I know a dude in Oregon who makes 'antique' collectible racist black characters. Good supply of hardwood and he's set for life.
People _want_ to spend money so they can brag about it.
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Worse, at least you can play with toys and change their pose. Most collectibles are just cheap, painted plastic statuettes. God forbid you take them out of the package.
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But ... but ... but then it's no longer a collectible!
I'd really love to know how many people have "collectibles" on their shelf that contain nothing but a brick in the box.
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I wouldn't care that it was ripped off, but I would care about the difference in quality.
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Who cares if somebody rips off somebody else's cellphone case design?
Despite what people think I have only seen one cellphone case come out of a 3D printer. On the flip side I've printed Dremel accessories for 1/20th of the cost of the original part. I've replaced the index pin on a coffee grinder for 1/50th of the cost of the original part.
I hope the 3D printing revolution will put an end to ludicrously overpriced vendor spares.
Piracy. (Score:4, Funny)
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3d printer filament costs $20/pound. That's more then junkyard price for any plastic interior part. Yes they will ship, but that will cost more.
Granting the junkyard part will be old and brittle. Almost as brittle as the 3d printed part.
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Yes, of course, because technology doesn't improve and get cheaper. No, no, no.
i remember when the first personal computers came out, people would buy them and everyone else would ask why they did that, because what could you do on them other than play some game where you had to guide the asterisk to avoid the evil dollar signs? What a silly toy.
Then, today, few people could imagine living without one.
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Because everything is like the PC.
There are technologies for 3d printing that do very interesting things. But cold welding plastic extruder printers will never produce anything but cold welded parts.
Sintered metal printers are very cool. But expensive as shit.
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Because everything is like the PC.
Very few mass-market technologies become more expensive over time. Plastic printers were expensive not long ago. They're not any more.
Sintered metal printers are very cool. But expensive as shit.
And will, in technological time, soon be cheap enough for everyone to have one.
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There's also the cost of finding the part. "I need a new ECU connector dust-cover for a Nissan Micro*, 2013 model. European version. No, has to be a revision-one, before they switched to the new enclosure design. Yes, I know those were only made for three months before they moved to revision-two. No, not the British version - they had to flip the ECU housing over for the right-hand-drive. You got one? Only in the German warehouse, two weeks shipping delay?"
3D printing parts can save a fortune in logistics a
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3D printing parts can save a fortune in logistics and lost time, enough to offset the higher manufacturing cost.
If you have a non-broken copy of the part and can scan it, or if someone has already made a .stl file for a new ecu connector dust cover for Nissan Micro Jan-March 2013 and has put it someplace you can get it.
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3d printer filament costs $20/pound. That's more then junkyard price for any plastic interior part. Yes they will ship, but that will cost more.
Granting the junkyard part will be old and brittle. Almost as brittle as the 3d printed part.
My car is a 24 year old Fairlady. The majority of these have been wrecked and/or dismantled, and altho there are some replacement parts available from both the original manufacturer and 3rd-party aftermarket parts manufacturers (mostly on the other side of the world from me) the used parts supply in my country is a dwindling resource. The wreckers here know that and pump up their prices to somewhere just a little below the cost of getting the part shipped here.
The cost of printer filament is probably stil
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All you have to do to print from pellets is buy an extruder and make your own filament. Brilliant.
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Think of the children!
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Which ones? The ones on my hood or the ones in my basement?
Re:Piracy. (Score:4, Insightful)
Why would that be piracy?
There are probably fifteen patents on that part.
Think of the patent holders, dude!
This article just goes to show how insanely stupid the whole Imaginary Property industry is. We have to cripple one of the most useful inventions in the history of the world, that has the potential to help raise billions out of poverty, just so a rentier class can make money.
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My lawyer said I should think less of patent holders. It lowers the incentive to do things that mean work for him.
What will the market response be? (Score:2)
Obviously there will be a political response we'd kind of expect, restrictions of various sorts to limit materials, printers, exchange of designs someone owns the IP to, etc.
I'm more curious what the organic market response will be.
For items that could conceivably be 3D printed, will manufacturers sell 3D plans? Make a better product that can't be 3D printed with the same quality or materials?
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Why make anything better when you can patent it and sue everyone who makes it better and cheaper?
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When you stop laughing, realize that today, that's _all_ injection molded parts.
To make a 3d printed part work at all, you need to make all sections much thicker, to make up for the lessor strength of cold welded printed plastic.
What kind of counterfeits are they worried about? (Score:3)
The part being copied would have to be something that is unavailable otherwise and/or very costly to be worth the time/effort to counterfeit it with a 3D printer. It would have to be something for which the market is very small but very willing to pay, because if the market were large, 3D printing wouldn't make sense- you'd fabricate the counterfeit in a way that's more cost effective for producing large quantities (and would probably give a higher quality result).
Maybe parts for exotic sports cars? But who isn't going to inspect and quickly know they're looking at a fake? What exotic sports car mechanic is going to risk his reputation by buying and installing counterfeit parts?
Jewelry? Too much scrutiny applied there, too.
Nope. Anything that costs a lot is going to be scrutinized. Anything that doesn't cost a lot isn't worth counterfeiting, especially not with a 3D printer.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What kind of counterfeits are they worried abou (Score:4, Informative)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L1fxe2Sk1c
http://www.thebigchilli.com/features/search-for-thailands-elusive-replica-supercars-goes-on
Chris Pongpitaya Schoenes Co.
229/3-4 Soi Akamai 7, Sukhumvit 63
Bangkok 10110 Thailand
Phone +66 2392 4177
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Spare parts and specialty tools. I constantly find myself needing some weirdly shaped piece of plastic that's impossible to find anywhere.
You do realize some people wear jewelry as ornamentation, and thus don't care if it has the right density of defects visible only when viewed with an electron micro
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You do realize some people wear jewelry as ornamentation, and thus don't care if it has the right density of defects visible only when viewed with an electron microscope?
Shhh! De Beers is listening.
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unavailable otherwise and/or very costly to be worth the time/effort to counterfeit it with a 3D printer.
So pretty much every vendor optional extra part ever? I've "pirated" a physical object before. It was a Dremel accessory. It was either pay $50 for it or jump on thingiverse and grab the model and hit print. A few hours later and $2 worth of plastic and I was off with my accessory. Mind you the 3D printer just enabled speed. Given the time I would probably have found a properly priced equivalent from China.
Maybe parts for exotic sports cars? But who isn't going to inspect and quickly know they're looking at a fake? What exotic sports car mechanic is going to risk his reputation by buying and installing counterfeit parts?
I have a funny story here. My father's GM convertible had a latch where where the roof connected which
IP law (Score:5, Insightful)
is supposed to be about rewarding innovators
IP law has been corrupted to reward entrenched economic interests
as such, IP law needs to be ignored and/ or actively sabotaged at every available opportunity
IP law is anticompetitive monopolistic nonsense
it is the largest point of corruption where oligarchs have warped the government to enforce their position rather than enforce fairness
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R... [wikipedia.org]
we must do everything we can to make a mockery of IP law
Re:IP law (Score:4, Informative)
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right, but the original intent has been fatally warped to have the opposite effect. now the guilds just sue everyone who tries to use "their" knowledge. the solution to the problem has been turned around to worsen the original problem
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who said you had to do so openly?
anonymity and mass action prevents and befuddles punitive retribution
patent applies to sale, distribution of product (Score:2, Insightful)
You can make whatever you want, for yourself.
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What? Really?
Time to buy a change in IP laws if that's the case!
Perhaps a change in law is needed ... (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean ... I've experienced a few times when a $50 - $200 appliance didn't work anymore because a $0.005 piece of plastic broke.
If the appliance is still under warranty, you can take up the cudgels and have it repaired or replaced. If it's out of warranty, you *might* be able to have it repaired, only to find that repairs typically cost between 50% and 150% of the purchase price.
What could be more reasonable to suspend legal restrictions barring you from 3D-printing that widget (if at all possible)?
As far as I know, it's very very rare that such a widget is of such clever design that you freeload on someone's hard work. What I think is the case (on basis of a thoroughly non-scientific survey, sample-size 6, personal observation) is that any ingenuity in the design is spent in making sure the widget in question can't be second-sourced without infringing on some sort of patent. E.g. by adding a special notch, a special hole, or simply making the dimensions so that the widget is unlike any other on the planet (and any other widgets won't fit).
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But if you could print a replacement for that cheap plastic part that breaks every couple of years so you have to go out and spend $100 on replacing the entire Widget, the Widget-makers would go out of business!
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As he should, relying on a broken business model.
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one that protects non-commercial printing of spare parts or widgets for home use as "fair use".
Funny that you say this. This is part of existing IP law. If it's not commercial, it is not infringing. Plain and simple.
This won't keep some crooks from using MAFIAA techniques, but they have no legal base to stand on.
We Survived (Score:2)
Re:We Survived (Score:5, Insightful)
Where do you come up with this silly stuff? Sure, you could 'print' a boat. A 3D printer capable of printing a, say 22 foot sport boat would likely be 15 feet tall, 30 feet long and take spools of material that have to be trucked in. As opposed to a fiberglass layup mold that's 10 feet tall and 25 feet long (and can be built using a bunch of plywood, a pencil and a decent CAD-CAM program). Neither is going to be put together by the folks down the street trying to make a 'cheap' boat.
Nobody is going to print out BMWs carbon fiber chassis for the same reason.
Maybe little stuff, maybe something as complex as a shoe (although not for a while, your typical plastic shoe has dozens of different types of materials in it).
Further, the world of manufacturing is quite a bit more complex than the actual production of the widget. You have to put the widget into a form that is useful (add the engine, the windows, the electronics, etc for the boat, the rest of the car. You cannot and will not be able to print everything.
3D printing for the vast majority of applications will be evolutionary - where it fits, it will be used. But it isn't going to be a revolution in how we obtain stuff.
Unless, of course, your life revolves around Star Wars figurines or anatomically correct models of Bruce Jenner (however that's supposed to work out).
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1. Designs change to match production ability. If you can't print a boat in one piece, you print it in multiple pieces and fit them together. Just like you didn't make a wooden galleon out of one tree trunk. My guess is that future 3D-printed boats will look very little like current designs.
2. You don't need the printer in your garage, you design the boat on your computer, then email the design to your local print shop to print out the parts for you. Unless the Imaginary Property Barons managed to get in th
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What claims?
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3D printing is always going to be more expensive than conventional approaches for mass production. It has niches when you need lots of unique items (medical applications, like making dentures perfect for each individual mouth), when you want to customise items (Get a unique model of your game avatar) and when you need to print parts but don't know in advance what you'll need (Repairs).
Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
Enhancing the collective wealth of humanity without giving captains of industry their cut will henceforth be known as "fraud"
nothing new (Score:3, Interesting)
Every time a new technology come along some people freak out and the end of life as we know it is threatened. Sometimes the naysayers have a point even, but for the most part life is better. Buggy whip and wagon makers are not the viable career they once were, but look at how many people have jobs manufacturing cars. Not to mention how society has advanced due to motorized vehicles.
Computers supplanted type writers, and all kinds of other stuff. When I was younger copy machines were a similar threat. And color copiers were used to counterfeit currency. I think it wasn't until inkjet printers got really good that the US government started adding elaborate anti-counterfeit features to paper money.
3-D printers are no different. As technology advances, what was once considered valuable becomes out dated and losses it's value as something different replaces it. Aluminum was once more valuable than gold as refining it was very difficult. This is no longer the case. Aluminum has become commonplace, and we're all benefiting because of it. Times change, as does what is considered valuable.
Gartner... (Score:3)
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Lying by omission is still lying.
ip (Score:4, Interesting)
"...estimating $100 billion in intellectual property losses ..."
There's your problem, right there. There is no such thing.
Unenforceable laws should not be laws (Score:2)
Electronic copying has made music and video copyrights almost meaningless - anybody can download just about anything. 3D printing will make patents on simple mechanical objects equally meaningless. If I need a new kitchen widget or a new plastic doohickey, why not just print one? There ought to be endless online libraries, provided by manufacturers or created by end users.
Of course, industry will fight this tooth and nail. Patenting differently-shaped measuring spoons or the plastic feet on a chair may make
Sounds good to me. (Score:2)
I'm sorry your little scarcity business model is broken, BOO HOO.
The best thing for society as a whole is that 3D printers get so cheap that the average consumer can print just about anything they want or need for about the same price as a manufacturer. All this "income inequality" political nonsense can be finally put to bed.
"He has 10 Ferraris while I only have 9" doesn't ring as loudly from the whiners in the society as "he has a billion dollars, while I only have f
Not just printers5 (Score:4, Insightful)
ANYthing that reduces costs, enhances productivity, or makes life easier is a "fraud enabler."
I recall... (Score:4, Interesting)
...an inspiring piece on NPR I hear a while back, about a little boy or girl who'd lost his or her hand or finger or some other limb, and instead of being forced to spend $20,000 on some traditional prosthesis, was able to 3D-print the prosthesis for something like $20. Even better was that since the kid was growing, the required parts could be reprinted with ease to match his/her development. It was really inspiring and there are probably hundreds of millions of people around the world who could benefit from such tech -- I mean, *actually* benefit, because they can actually *afford* it.
Now, when I read articles like this and statements about "100 billion dollar IP losses" all I can think of is, fuck, are we really going to let intellectual property law squash the awesome potential for advances 3D printing gives us across a wide range of applications? I can only hope that there will be a significant movement of "open-source' designers who allow their product templates to be downloaded and printer for free, but the pessimist in me sees this as another opportunity for patent trolls and megacorporations to fuck everyone over and profit in the process.
Sorry for the slightly "jaded teenager" esque post, but anyway.
We're going to get more open source hardware (Score:2)
These guys are all worried about people pirating their appliances and manufactured goods. But really most of what they make isn't that innovative. I mean, an open source refrigerator isn't going to work any worse then theirs really.
This guy is talking like anyone gives a crap if they use THEIR design. But who really does actually care? Imagine all the things you own and imagine they were all things that came out of 3d printers, assembled, and had some motors and electronics glued into them. Who needs to ste
Replicators (Score:2)
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high quality high detail 3d printing of metals and other materials. Good luck trying to enforce IP rights once this tech hits the market.
High quality, high detail 3D printing of metals and other materials will be banned, because 'public safety!' After all, evil people COULD PRINT GUNS!
Seriously, governments are going to do everything they can to restrict this technology, because the ability to make anything you want at home would destroy the entire economic and political system. How can Big Business make money if anyone can print stuff? How can Big Government regulate things if anyone can just print them?
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Ah, an optimist, I see. 'Agitating for access to the technology' would inevitably result in eliminating most of the government and business in that country, and they will fight that to the bitter end. Big Business and Big Government just don't work in a world where anyone can make anything they want at any time.
I think it's far more likely that most of the West will ban it, until their economies collapse as other nations that don't have the same industrial baggage overtake them.
Some much needed competition (Score:3)
That profit margin is sure to evaporate. People will scan and print replacement part for a fraction of the price. Sears might actually install a 3D printer in their own store with access to official CAD drawings and sell it. But they will not be able to maintain such high price for such small piece that probably costs 20cents to make for long. So yeah, 3D printing might erode some of these profit margins, and these guys will bitch, moan and yell, "IP fraud, they don't have license from us to replicate these parts". But, if you had not abused your monopoly on the replacement parts and acted nicely, may be I would have been kind. But now, I say, cry me a river Sears.
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Want to see more overpriced plastic bits? Spares for Toshiba laptops.
The NB510* in particular. There's a severe flaw near the right hinge - the stress of the hinge attachment is on a tiny bit of plastic, and the power connectors is supported by another tiny bit of plastic. Far too small, and prone to breakage. When it breaks, you need to replace** the entire lower chassis. Nothing but a bit of molded plastic, but it costs quite a bit.
*DO NOT BUY THIS MODEL
** You don't really 'need' to replace if it's the po
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I would have gladly paid 10$ for that part to Sears. If it manages to keep
Let me fix that for you (Score:2)
Cyberspace(the internet, and all virtual space on interactive computers), there is no sarcity of goods. Companies can only profit by created scarcity to drive demand, and to do that, they need to ban people from doing things for themselves.
This is no diffrent than a pimp accusing your girlfriend of "stealing" his business by providing sex for "free"
Venus Equilateral - Special Delivery (Score:2)
Will be interesting to see how copyright and patent laws evolve, once people can DIY more and more and more.
Will things evolve to end up like "Venus Equaliteral - Special Delivery" or continue with the status quo?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Counterfeiting what? (Score:2)
The article didn't mention a single item that could be counterfeited with a 3D printer. There was only a passing mention to guns, which is clearly not the main issue.
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A counterfeitable item must be:
1. Made entirely of plastic.
2. Have no highly intricate mechanisms, though simple joints and gears are ok.
3. Cost more than the bill of materials.
4. Be subject to copyright, trademark and/or patent protection.
I can think of a few things that fit those criteria. The first to come to mind are Warhammer figures. The second is high-end or branded audio gear. Currently the equipment for injection molding is bulky and expensive, which means tricky to hide - you have to get imports s
Enabling fraud? Yes, but... (Score:2)
Anything that enables people to do things better and more efficiently, also enables people to commit crimes better and more efficiently.
If it is not commercial, it is not infringing (Score:3)
Sure, there will always be some leeches who will try to get rich with MAFIAA methods, but if you fall for their cons, don't blame patent law for it.
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IP Lawyers Unite! (Score:2)
It's been done. Now, it'll just be done more. (Score:2)
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"Well, that depends. How large a campaign contribution are we talking here?"
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We simply use laws to create an artificial scarcity. Duh.