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Privacy Crime

Should Cyborgs Have the Same Privacy Rights As Humans? 206

Jason Koebler (3528235) writes When someone with an e-tattoo or an implanted biochip inevitably commits a crime, and evidence of that crime exists on that device within them, do they have a legal right to protect that evidence? Do cyborgs have the same rights as humans? "The more you take a thing with no rights and integrate it indelibly into a thing that we invest with rights, the more you inevitably confront the question: Do you give the thing with no rights rights, or do you take those rights away from the thing with rights?," Benjamin Wittes, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, who just released a paper exploring the subject, said.
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Should Cyborgs Have the Same Privacy Rights As Humans?

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  • No. They should set their bar a bit higher than that.
    • by khasim ( 1285 ) <brandioch.conner@gmail.com> on Friday September 05, 2014 @06:09PM (#47838487)

      That would be nice. But in the meantime ... it's about property. From TFA:

      But our laws do not recognize the rights of machines themselves.

      Because they are non-sentient property. Ask again once AI is achieved.

      But what is the difference between that and having a phone with you - sorry, a computer with you - all the time that is tracking where you are, which you're using for storing all of your personal information, your memories, your friends, your communications, that knows where you are and does all kinds of powerful things and speaks different languages?

      And the difference between a stored text communication and a written letter? Learn the 4th Amendment.

      The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

      Machines, meanwhile, remain slaves with uncertain masters.

      Really? "Slaves"? Maybe you should look into actual slavery.

      As to "uncertain" just look for the sales receipt or lease agreement. My car is a machine and there is no uncertainty as to who owns it.

      ... understanding that we are - if not yet Terminators - at least a little more integrated ...

      Fuck you.

      Learn what technology really is before you go off on movie tangents.

      • But our laws do not recognize the rights of machines themselves.

        Because they are non-sentient property. Ask again once AI is achieved.

        What about how the computers store information for their own use (example: evercookies)? I know it's not the "mind" of the computer doing what it wants but it's certainly not the user either.

        The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

        You're right, but that applies once you get an expensive lawyer, only. Otherwise, all the legal stuff that protects us is worthless.

        And it's silly to think that machines could be held accountable. But the people that program them...

        • You're right, but that applies once you get an expensive lawyer, only.

          One of the great strengths of a populace gifted with civil rights is an abiding belief that those rights belong to them. No law or condition of government can abridge an ingrained belief in individual rights.

          Would I rather be a wealthy defendant than a poor one? A no-brainer, sure, but when you no longer believe that basic rights are afforded to you, you have already lost.

          • One of the great strengths of a populace gifted with civil rights is an abiding belief that those rights belong to them.

            Great. But what's the use of a "belief" if it's no longer true? You're talking about a country that re-elected someone as the head of state who was KNOWN to have ordered the targeted killings of American citizens without trial. I don't see how much further one can get from "your rights are all now optional" than the head of government killing people (i.e., effective removal of ALL rights) with no legal process, and the electorate implicitly condoning the process by reelecting him.

            Maybe the populace bel

            • I have a less jaded view. My rights are set forth in a document we refer to as the Constitution of our Republic.

              Are the powers that be embroiled in seemingly constant effort to reverse those personal freedoms given to the citizens? Sure.

              However, a voting populace that expects better treatment generally gets it.

              • I have a less jaded view. The limitations on government power are set forth in a document we refer to as the Constitution of our Republic.

                There. FTFY.

        • by mcgrew ( 92797 ) *

          What about how the computers store information for their own use (example: evercookies)? I know it's not the "mind" of the computer doing what it wants but it's certainly not the user either.

          Duh, it's the mind of the programmer who had the script drop the cookie. But your comment tells me you know that already.

      • That would be nice. But in the meantime ... it's about property.

        Not quite.

        An apt comparison would be comparing "cyborgs" i.e. people with various technology built into their bodies, for uses other than medical, with gun laws.
        I.e. It is not a property issue but a claim right [wikipedia.org] issue.

        As for machines and not humans with implants... again... that is not a property issue.
        It is not even an issue of consciousness nor intelligence (should those machines posses it) as we regularly limit the rights of humans who have shown a lack of self-control - be it due to intoxication, disabil

      • Fantastic rebuttal ! You hit the nail right on the head.

        This bullshit handwaving about "machine rights" is total nonsense. Like you said once Actual Intelligence happens instead of the joke that passes for artificial ignorance today then we can talk about "rights" of machines.

      • First, I agree completely with your comment. Secondly, I don't even have to RTFA to see that TFA rides the short bus.

        As a cyborg, I find this entire topic offensive. A cyborg is part animal and part machine, and guess what? There are a hell of a lot of us. I have a CrystaLens implant in my left eye, making glasses unnecessary for me (I see better than you do). It is a device that uses the eye's muscles to focus. I'm 62 and need no corrective lenses whatever.

        Do you know someone with a cochlear implant? Artif

      • What is the difference between a person with computerized artificial legs, and a person with a memory chip in her skull?

        Answer: none. Both are people.
    • by arth1 ( 260657 )

      No. They should set their bar a bit higher than that.

      Yes, I think the rule should be simple:
      Anyone or anything that claims a right to privacy shall have it.

    • When someone with an e-tattoo or an implanted biochip inevitably commits a crime, and evidence of that crime exists on that device within them, do they have a legal right to protect that evidence?

      What about when someone with DNA inevitably commits a crime and leaves some DNA behind? Are we allowed to take a DNA swab just out of anyone willy nilly? The answer is no, not yet at least, and not with some kind of due process. In the US and in Europe at least, there are specific laws protecting the privacy of DNA (unless you're a felon, or unless you're in the military).

      Granted, the entire male population of three villages in Scotland was once swabbed for DNA [police.uk] for a double rape and a double murder case, bu

  • those are called lawyers in the USofA
  • Cyborgs are just kinds of humans, so yes. Unless you count cyborg cats, which would be a more interesting question which would have to depend on the cognitive abilities of said cyborg cat.

    • Easy to discount on its face, but a Cyborcat could bring all the purring, mouse-killing, internet meme fun to your home without the burden of a litterbox.

      Jackpot.

    • Cyborgs are just kinds of humans

      It's conceivable that something could cause a knee jerk reaction and suddenly a bill appears suggesting people with brain enhancing modifications are no longer "people". Then all your inalienable rights go out the window. Perhaps a law is passed saying modified humans are no longer human and therefor no longer citizens. Again, your rights go away. It's something that should (eventually) be addressed before stupidity happens.

      While a person is smart and can make rational decisions, sometimes people beco

      • by HiThere ( 15173 )

        The point you really were making is that sometime the people in power are sociopaths with a dictator complex. And the time to stop them from doing something is before they decide that it's desirable.

        • Not at all. There are plenty of examples in history. U.S. was formed, among other things, over an argument about unequal representation and the rights of citizens. Slavery in the U.S. was justified by categorizing a group of people as not being equal. Japanese internment camps were created during WWII as part of a knee jerk reaction to the bombing of Pearl Harbor. What I'm saying is that once modified humans become common, all it might take is a seemingly simple series of events for the populous to pus
    • Cyborgs are just kinds of humans

      exactly...so many of "teh singularity" type "futurists" who get to have their thoughts on this stuff published have absolutely no idea what they are talking about

      anyone with a pacemaker or hearing aid is a "cyborg"

      hell, it's "cybernetic" when you know your phone is ringing b/c you set it to vibrate...

    • Cyborgs are just kinds of humans, so yes.

      The situation is really not that simple, even if you consider non-cyborg humans. See this Stack Exchange thread on the topic:
      http://philosophy.stackexchang... [stackexchange.com]

  • by taustin ( 171655 ) on Friday September 05, 2014 @06:06PM (#47838467) Homepage Journal

    An implanted cell phone is no different, legally, than any other cell phone. The cops can't search your cell phone without permission or a warrant, why could an implanted one be any different? At worst, it'd be the same process to forcibly take a DNA sample, which also requires probably cause.

    Does the Brookings Institute require their senior fellows to publish on a regular basis to keep getting a paycheck or something? Cuz I'm having a hard time figuring out any other reason for this.

    • The question pops up when the human is no longer sentient. Suppose you had an AI implanted to run through probable scenarios when making najor decisions. This works well for 50 or so years and you pass on or get struck by a car or whatever and become brain dead. Also suppose the AI takes over body functions, draws off your memories and can take commands from other computers. Now are you still human or something else? Do you have the same rights or less because you are not really you?

      • I know we beat the Ship of Theseus to death around here, but the obvious follow-ups include, "What if I've replaced ALL my parts over time."

        Which one contained "me."

        • by taustin ( 171655 )

          When there is some theoretical model for building an artificial brain (your question was trivially answerable decades ago), it will matter. In the meantime, yawn.

        • All your cells replace themselves every seven to ten years, it is said, so we are the Ship.
      • Whether you are talking about a memory-reading device that works externally, or a device inserted surgically, the issue will be the same: does the police accessing your mind via that route violate the 5th Amendment. I'm not sure whether a precedent exists that would apply in that situation. Your memories of committing a crime may have constitutional protection, but a recording you make wouldn't (4th Amendment would only protect it up to the point a search warrant is issued), so it's a legal grey area. Any o
        • by taustin ( 171655 )

          If the guy's talking about "memory reading devices," then he's off in fantasy land, as there is no theoretical basis for such technology, nor is there likely to be during the lifetime of anyone alive today.

          And if you record it, it's a recording, same as if you videotaped yourself committing a crime. If it's a device, there are clear, well established rules for showing probably cause for a warrant. If it's part of the body, there are clear, well established (for decades) rules for showing probably cause for

      • by taustin ( 171655 )

        Since that has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion at hand, and there is no theoretical much less actual, way for this to happen, who cares?

        • A cyborg is a cyborg. You do not get to make up a definition in order to limit the discusion of it.

          I purposely created a fictional scenarii in order to exempt bias but if you do not think it is theoreticaly possible, i suggest you pay more attention. They are recording brain waves as we speak in order to make prosthetics as transparent as possible. If they can relay and replay those signal to prothetics, it isn't unimaginable that it could be done for the real thing. And yes, science fiction has already don

          • by taustin ( 171655 )

            A cyborg is a cyborg. You do not get to make up a definition in order to limit the discusion of it.

            Where legal definitions are concerned, neither do you. And it still doesn't matter. Current law covers it without even stretching.

            I purposely created a fictional scenarii in order to

            Change the subject, and not answer the real point: current law covers implanted technology in one of two ways, and does so quite thoroughly.

            exempt bias but if you do not think it is theoreticaly possible, i suggest you pay more attention. They are recording brain waves as we speak in order to make prosthetics as transparent as possible. If they can relay and replay those signal to prothetics, it isn't unimaginable that it could be done for the real thing. And yes, science fiction has already done it.

            Interpreting the equivalent of a mouse signal and replaying memories are not even qualitatively the same thing, and we have already proven, quite conclusively, how inaccurate memory can be, even of one's own actions. The chances of such a sys

  • I would think this would be just an extension of the idea of self incrimination. Yes it's a 'cyborg' and not a robot. So conceivably the 'human' part of the combination was in charge of the volition that led to whatever thing is being investigated.

    However: If I commit a crime with a tape recorder in my pocket, should the state be able to subpoena me for the tape? They would. Similarly, cyborgs could expect the same treatment. (forcible extraction of whatever data was requested.)

    • You've hit the nail on the head, I think: when your memories can be extracted for objective review does the 5th Amendment still protect them? The question will be whether "memory copying" constitutes "interrogation"; if it does, then the 5th Amendment applies. If it doesn't, then police can apply for a warrant under the 4th Amendment, as they do for DNA samples.
  • Your DNA is part of you, as are your fingerprints, and may carry evidence against you. The fifth amendment protection against self-incrimination does not extend to refusing to give your DNA or fingerprints. You do have the right to refuse to give them voluntarily, but if there is probable cause the police can obtain a warrant and force you to provide samples. This actually exactly the same standard as with other items you might possess... your home, your papers, your cellphone, etc.

    I think other forms of

  • by Greyfox ( 87712 )
    If they're people. Many of the discriminatory laws in the USA over the years are obviously based on the assumption that the discriminated-against group, being different from us, are obviously not people. Take, for example, the current marriage fight. It's pretty easy to make the argument that gays should not be allowed to marry, if you don't consider them to be people. Kind of like how in the '60's, most states didn't allow interracial marriage. That was before we discovered that other races were also peopl
    • I like how you worked gay marriage in there but you are wrong. Gays always had the same rights to marry that everyone else has had- to marry someone of legal age of the opposite sex who was not closely related to them. In other words, they have always been human. Interracial marriage wasn't about not being human either. It was about genetics and their grade. Look into Eugenics to find more but it was the same line of thinking of nazies and the aryan race.

      No it could be possible that a cyborg is not consider

      • by Greyfox ( 87712 )
        The Nazis didn't view the Jews as being people either. The first thing you do when you're looking to oppress some group is to fire up the propaganda machine and dehumanize that group. Hell, it was in the Constitution for a while, a slave's counted as 2/3rds of a person. You want to make an argument that marriage is for children, I'm FINE with what, as long as a man and a woman won't be able to get married if they'd be unable to produce children. You never see that in any of those "Marriage Protection" laws
  • by TsuruchiBrian ( 2731979 ) on Friday September 05, 2014 @06:33PM (#47838589)

    You need a warrant to search external electronics that belong to people. You should also need a warrant to search internal electronics that belong to people. There is no new legal questions created by putting electronics inside people rather than simply keeping them detached.

    You can't just shove your iphone up your ass claim to be a cyborg to evade a search warrant. By the same token, the police can't use the fact that your iphone is up your ass to call you a cyborg and search it without getting a warrant.

    • by Nkwe ( 604125 )

      ... There is no new legal questions created by putting electronics inside people rather than simply keeping them detached.

      Maybe, maybe not. Let's say that you have some sort of future pacemaker or other medical device implanted that you need to stay alive. For whatever reason this device as part of its normal function also happens to have historical location information in it. Perhaps the device optimizes or alters its operation depending on your altitude or location. This device would be a part of you and having it wouldn't really be a choice. Would forcefully extracting information from such a device be any different than co

      • Why does it matter if the device is physically inside you or necessary to live? Why is a futuristic pacemaker any different than a cell phone? I would argue that a modern cell phone is more a part of a person than this hypothetical futuristic pacemaker, despite being outside the body. The cell phone in addition to storing location information also has all your emails, text conversations, search histories, voicemails, facebook stuff, etc.

        Would forcefully extracting information from such a device be any different than compelling a person to testify against their will?

        Should fingerprinting someone or taking a DNA sample be considered f

        • by Nkwe ( 604125 )

          Why does it matter if the device is physically inside you or necessary to live? Why is a futuristic pacemaker any different than a cell phone?

          It is about choice. In my opinion, it is different because such a device would not be carried by choice nor would it have data that you voluntarily placed on it. A cell phone or other computer you carry by choice. Data you put on your cell phone (pictures, email, GPS tracks, etc.), you put on by choice. With a pacemaker (or other medically necessary device), you really don't have a choice to have with you (unless you choose to die). Operational data that such a medical device might gather, you don't have an

      • Are you suggesting that said *pacemaker* is storing location information without any method to nondestructively access it? If so, I call bullshit. If not, the cops need only use the same interface to extract the information without killing you.

        • by Nkwe ( 604125 )

          Are you suggesting that said *pacemaker* is storing location information without any method to nondestructively access it? If so, I call bullshit. If not, the cops need only use the same interface to extract the information without killing you.

          I am not talking about the technical ability to extract data from the fictional future device, I am talking about the legality. My point is that if some future medically necessary device did for some reason store historical location information, that such data should be covered by the same laws that protect a person from self-incrimination. If I don't have tell tell the cops where I was last Thursday, a medically necessary device that I can't live without and which I can't control the data collected on, sho

  • To decide this, we need to look at the history of the 5th Amendment and how the courts have interpreted it. I'm not a lawyer, but I think it's pretty clear that cyborgs' personal data will be covered.

    According to Wikipedia's article on the 5th Amendment [wikipedia.org], courts have been pretty expansive. You can't even be required to turn over the password to an encrypted hard drive if it would incriminate you.

    If I understand the history, the 5th Amendment was partly a backlash over the horribly unfair "Star Chamber" leg

  • I would think that the cybernetic bits should be treated no differently than any other physical evidence on or in a person's body. If, for example, paint stains on a suspect's shoes prove that (s)he was at a certain location at a certain time, that's effectively the same thing as an implanted chip that proves the same thing.
  • We aren't in control of our data or devices anyway. If anything has been shown in the past, is that everything we do with our shiny new devices is phoned home to HQ for further analysis. No way of being self-sustained. It could leak trade secrets. And the users don't care, so lure them with a bit convenience, and they are all yours. No need to get data from inside a suspect, its already enough to just ask google what he has asked google. Google may not be in direct contact with our nerves, but if we include

  • by grasshoppa ( 657393 ) on Friday September 05, 2014 @06:50PM (#47838657) Homepage

    Seriously; in light of all the violations of our "privacy" by the government, what "rights" can we humans be said to retain?

    Viewed in that light, however, the answer is probably a depressing "Yes".

  • 1% and the GOP will use this to jail anyone who trys to gum-up the works as there jobs are taken away. But look at the up side the jail / prison must give you health care

  • by Nyder ( 754090 ) on Friday September 05, 2014 @07:46PM (#47838887) Journal

    I think this is a joke because we really don't have privacy rights. The NSA doesn't think so, most government don't think so.

    So what privacy rights are we talking about again?

  • If you folk's look at it from my perspective: Where i live the police photograph the Tat's of the gang guy's and gal's why not document a Cyborg?

  • don't over think it!

  • If I commit a crime and my shoes or other clothing contain evidence of my criminal act, is the clothing legally treated as if it's "part of me" or as if it's not?

    Generally not. Think about all the crime dramas where dirt that is only found at the crime scene is found in the suspect's shoes, or where the dye from the exploding dye-pack was found on the suspect's clothing.

    Much more likely to be a legal issue is the issue of how invasive the legal system can be to retrieve the evidence. A few years ago there

  • See Post Title
  • by Kalium70 ( 3437049 ) on Friday September 05, 2014 @09:30PM (#47839249)

    I've watched enough Battlestar Galactica to know the importance of treating cyborgs well. There is a cycle that keeps repeating: humans (or some other life form) creates artificial sentient life form but treats it badly, like a slave race. The artificial life form rebels and begins to conquer its creators, but the artificial life cannot reproduce. That leads to some kind of joining between a faction of the artificial life with its creators for reproduction. The group of hybrids grows and prospers but forgets its origins and creates new artificial life. Repeat.

  • If it have enough brainpower to hire a good lawyer, it will most likely will be considered human, no matter if a cyborg, robot, bipedal fox created by the wrong kind of scientists...

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