Carmakers Keep Data On Drivers' Locations From Navigation Systems 189
cold fjord writes "The Detroit News reports, 'A government report finds that major automakers are keeping information about where drivers have been — collected from onboard navigation systems — for varying lengths of time. Owners of those cars can't demand that the information be destroyed. And, says the U.S. senator requesting the investigation, that raises questions about driver privacy. The Government Accountability Office in a report released Monday found major automakers have differing policies about how much data they collect and how long they keep it. Automakers collect location data in order to provide drivers with real-time traffic information, to help find the nearest gas station or restaurant, and to provide emergency roadside assistance and stolen vehicle tracking. But, the report found, "If companies retained data, they did not allow consumers to request that their data be deleted, which is a recommended practice."'"
All across America (Score:5, Funny)
All across America, well polished and maintained '57 Chevy convertibles just got that much cooler.
Re:All across America (Score:5, Funny)
In today's weather, though, not one would start.
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*ahem* [wikipedia.org]
(...they've been around since the 1940's.)
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Block heaters are great, often especially if you want to put them on a timer, to make starting easier. But they are rarely needed except where the thermometer routinely goes below 0 degrees F.
Keep the right amount of antifreeze in your coolant, occasionally use a little bit of Heet in your gas (unless it already has ethanol in it), and you're good to go in most parts of the U.S.
Re:All across America (Score:5, Informative)
Uh what? The whole point behind a block heater is to reduce the initial startup cost for the car/truck. They guzzle heavily when under -6C(20f) until the intake manifold warms up, to lower the amount of time required to heat the cabin of the vehicle. And prevent damage to the engine itself, since the vast majority of vehicles don't pump oil before starting, increasing viscosity even a small amount reduces wear.
And the above has been known for decades. As a fun point, having too rich a mixture of antifreeze will corrode the aluminum, and eat the gaskets between various manifolds. Having it too weak, will lead to popped frost plugs(if you're lucky), and if you're unlucky broken heads, cracked blocks, or broken manifolds. I'll toss in one other thing, back when I was an apprentice in the 90's, a car came in that "wouldn't start" so said the customer. The antifreeze mixture had frozen(too old), and separated the intake manifold from the head. It had stripped all the bolts, warped the head, and broke the manifold. It was just shy of $4200 in repairs.
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"And prevent damage to the engine itself, since the vast majority of vehicles don't pump oil before starting, increasing viscosity even a small amount reduces wear."
I am aware of what they are good for. I wrote that they were rarely "needed". It was my understanding that the whole context of this was the big "cold snap". And unless the weather is very cold, research I read a long time ago, when engines did not last as long as they do now, said that the cost of using a block heater is probably greater than the costs associated with the wear on engines that otherwise occurs. For a normal automobile, that is.
I also stated that you needed to have the "right" amount of a
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I am aware of what they are good for. I wrote that they were rarely "needed". ...
Hardly "rarely needed" and "within the current coldsnap" either, if you live somewhere, where the weather gets below -10C(14F), a block heater will help you immensely. Especially with the self-programmable timers, for a normal auto.
I also stated that you needed to have the "right" amount of antifreeze in your coolant. ...
No it's not the "right amount" it's the proper type, and the proper mixture, and corrosive state of the antifreeze, not to mention the right level. Which is double true for closed loop systems.
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"I don't know if he's arguing with you but I will."
Why? Nothing YOU are saying there contradicts what I was saying, either.
"Antifreeze, will indeed, freeze."
Sure. The recommended mixture for automobiles will freeze. If you're in an area where it gets below -45 F.
The pure stuff doesn't freeze until it gets to about -74F. But good luck finding any. Or for that matter, finding a place that's -74F in the U.S.
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Is Alaska still part of the U.S. ?? :)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0930150.html [infoplease.com]
A bit closer to home (I live here):
http://montanakids.com/facts_and_figures/climate/Temperature_Extremes.htm [montanakids.com]
Roger's Pass, officially -70F. It probably was colder up away from the pass itself (which is fairly sheltered).
In January 1969, KMON (Great Falls MT) radio's weather station, which was up on the hill north of town, recorded -72F.
Recently when it was a bit below zero, I needed to put some power steering fluid in my truck..
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I'm not that far from Great Falls, myself.
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Howdy, neighbor! Where are ya? I'm a bit outside of Three Forks. :)
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I've had some problems with people getting just a bit too interested in details about me. I am sure you understand.
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Oh, I wasn't thinking exact, there being sufficient nutjobs here to keep the asylums busy for decades to come... I'm in the Bozeman vicinity myself. You'd never find me in a million years from that. :)
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The amount of heat soaked into the block does in a small way help with cold starting but that isn't the primary purpose for a block heater.
Eh? How did you decide this? A block heater absolutely helps with starting, and by itself, doesn't warm the oil all that much. If it's cold enough for the oil to be a problem, you add an oil pan heater.
. . .and also to keep the coolant liquefied.
No, no, no. The coolant has to take care of itself. The block heater is only for the engine block, not for the radiator. If the coolant mixture isn't appropriate for the temperature, you'll have problems with or without a block heater.
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I guess I've not been clear enough: There's coolant outside the engine block that can't freeze either, and isn't heated. Plus, you *really* don't want to lose an engine because you forgot to plug in the heaters. So, you don't prevent the coolant freezing by adding a heater, you prevent the coolant freezing by having the appropriate coolant mixture.
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It depends on the car, tho.
My '63 Olds would start right up in any weather (including -45F Montana winters), but if it hadn't been plugged in, it took forever to get the glass defogged (not so with the block heater running, which actually got the entire interior of the car warm too -- helluva lot nicer than holding onto a steering wheel that's also at -45. It would even melt the ice off the windshield.)
But if it's below zero, my Ford pickups (otherwise better vehicles) won't start, or start with grave reluc
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"As a fun point, having too rich a mixture of antifreeze will corrode the aluminum, and eat the gaskets between various manifolds."
Aluminum in a '57 Chevy. LMFAO.
Back to school for you.
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Sounds like you are in a cold part of the world. A 50/50 mixture of Ethylene glycol and water is good down to -30F/-34.4C. 75/25 is good down to -68F/-55C.
Though block heaters are common in very cold parts, not many cars are sold with them. Only vehicle we had with a block heater was a 1983 Chevy K5 blazer. They are however almost universally common on diesel engines. The only thing is they suck a lot of power around 1500W and I have seen a few trucks burnt to the ground from faulty heater wiring. The salt
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So what's your thoughts on the commonly-available premixed antifreeze? It claims to be good down to -50 or so, but nowhere on the bottle does it say what the mix IS.
(I live in Montana. -45 is routine; -65 isn't out of the question.)
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Suddenly, the basic econobox where every comfort item is an option looks like the smarter choice.
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This type of thing being possible is one reason I've never trusted a car with OnStar. (To name the most visible.)
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I predicted when they announced it a few years ago that someone will hack onstar (or be a disgruntled employee) and disable a few hundred thousand cars just because they can.
I am amazed that it hasn't happened yet.
I personally would just like the source code of the hack and a short-reach transmitter, to shut down the people talking on the phone or cruising in the left lane.
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it seems that I won't be trusting the built-in gps units and I'll go out of my way to NOT buy one that is built-in, next time I buy a new car.
my current car has an aftermarket garmin gps and I know I can clear its memory at will. hell, I can remove the thing from the car, at will, if I want to.
thanks dealerships: you just saved a lot of us 2x the price of a gps and I bet garmin and company will be thanking the car companies for sending them MORE business!
(at some point, I'll have to try a linux gps map and
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at some point, I'll have to try a linux gps map and see if its as good as the commercial ones. would be nice to have a fully open source gps system in my car
There is GpsDrive [gpsdrive.de] and navit [navit-project.org] for navigation engines and UIs. I have played around with navit some on a raspberry pi and you can load maps from Open Street Map [openstreetmap.org] into it. I would suggest checking OSM for some locations you are familiar with to get a better feel for the accuracy of open source maps. In my experience it depends on the the users in a given are, if they are like myself they will map out almost everything they can, if there aren't many users or ones who aren't obsessive things might not be as up to
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Not always. ;)
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For all intents and purposes, "intensive purposes" is not correct english. This begs the question, why put it in a signature criticizing grammar? ;)
Re:All across America (Score:5, Insightful)
The summary (and the report it quotes) is inaccurate. Car owners *can* demand that the companies destroy the data.
The only problem is, the companies will just ignore the demand.
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Yet I would guess they'll hand it over to law enforcement agencies without a warrant, same as most companies these days.
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They can demand all they want, but that won't change a thing. There's only one way to fight this: Buyers chosing to remove the cell network interfaces from the car...and the RFID tags on the tires.. and the NARC blackboxes...
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A better question, why isn't the data automatically destroyed? I can understand storing it for a certain amount of time for the scenario where one's car is stolen while the owner is on vacation ... two weeks would probably cover 99% of users and people who expect to be gone for months on end should have an opt-in method for longer storage. But most of the data should be discarded automatically and frequently.
Re:All across America (Score:5, Insightful)
Because it's valuable to them. Because they'd love to have your car recommend a nearby restaurant. Because they can.
Welcome to a world ruled by Terms of Service and End User Licenses, and where corporate greed isn't regulated by privacy laws.
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More to the point, why is the GAO studying this and hiding the details from their report.
Not one specific policy of any specific company is listed.
Re:All across America (Score:5, Insightful)
Until your wife demands it for divorce proceedings which prove you were at your mistress when you should have been at work.
Or until someone decides that the fact that you were in Little Italy means you might be associated with organized crime.
Or any number of ways in which you don't expect your location to be constantly broadcast to a 3rd party, and be something which comes back to bite you in the ass.
You are aware of the Patriot Act, right? The one which says they can walk into a company, demand your data, and it would be illegal for them to tell you about it?
Sorry, but as long as they can use national security laws to get this data, putting it into the hands of companies is no solution.
Sadly, people have known OnStar would have this capability for years.
Re:All across America (Score:4, Informative)
Until your wife demands it for divorce proceedings which prove you were at your mistress when you should have been at work.
So somebody else thought of that. That's right, you can subpoena that information in a divorce.
Of course, you can also subpoena that information from your wife's car.
Re:All across America (Score:5, Insightful)
And the pattern for societies where people give away their liberty for safety or convenience shows that things often go very badly for those people.
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--Ben Franklin sends you an AMEN from beyond the grave...
/ so say we all
Come on guyyyyyyyyys! (Score:2)
The government recommends that you guys do something that will cost you money and empower the consumers! Why haven't you done it yet!?!?!
Re:Come on guyyyyyyyyys! (Score:4, Insightful)
Because the REAL government is quietly asking them to hold onto the data.
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And the GAO is dutifully NOT SAYING SQUAT about which car companies do this sort of thing.
They speak of 10 companies they interviewed, and never once indicate which companies are a) collecting this data, and b) retaining it.
Way to go, GAO, so nice to know you are on our side.
If you get your traffic data via any one-way broadcast method, you are probably safe. But if your car offers "luxury" nav systems with on-line weather, and search capabilities, it has to have some transmitter capabilities (built in cel
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um... it's all of them. lol
But of course (Score:5, Insightful)
Our economy is increasingly based on collecting, trading, and exploiting customer information, rather than actually making and selling a product.
When's the bubble going to burst?
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Our economy is increasingly based on collecting, trading, and exploiting customer information, rather than actually making and selling a product.
When's the bubble going to burst?
Customer information *IS* a product.
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Customer information *IS* a product.
But sooner or later, companies are going to stop buying that information, because damn few of them have the skilz to
actually utilize the data in any real way.
What good does it do for Shell Oil, Bridgestone tires, or Jiffy Lube to know where I go, and what I drive? Unless they
start personally sending me printed mail, I never see their advertising unless I drive by it.
Google has the greatest scam going. While they insist they don't sell my info to other companies, but rather
simply use it to send me ads on b
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You have no friggen idea what you're talking about. This information is money in the bank. 10 years ago a salesman would call you at work and suggest you buy their printers. They had no idea who you were, if you could make purchases on behalf of your company and no idea if you would be interested. Companies had armies of salesman that would just canvas whole area codes looking for customers.
Now, when they want to call Business A, they know nearly everyone who works there... they can cross reference that aga
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You're basically talking to a con artist that knows you better than your own mother and you think he's a stranger. You're at a complete disadvantage in the negotiation and have no idea.
I was born in the morning, son, but not THIS morning.
Nope. Doesn't happen. Maybe in some salesman's wet dream. Not in real life.
Cold calling salesmen men get a very courteous but firm bums rush, by our very junior grade phone staff. You see, even a high school educated 20 year old sees right through all that razzel dazzel, before the salesman can even get to someone with purchase authority. Even when someone manages to get the direct number of someone on staff, they get the courteous good bye, as soon as th
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How else do they stay in business to keep doing it?
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Lots of suckers, paying small amounts out of their advertising budgets, without even measuring ROI.
By keeping the costs down, they avoid attracting attention.
Most of this info goes to direct mail campaigns, rather than phone calls. 4 unrequested catalogs in the morning mail, all from companies I've never heard of.
Straight to recycle.
Re: But of course (Score:4)
The number of idiots is decreasing year by year.
Every kid coming out of Junior High understands these things already (Or will by the time they have money).
The major portion of the elderly noobs new to the internet have already been bitten once if they were gullible, they are no longer that gullible.
Its getting harder and harder to find people so gullible as they were in the past. Still a large number out there, but shrinking every day.
A recommended practice? (Score:2)
Re:A recommended practice? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A recommended practice? (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course they don't. Because they can demand this information from them and use it themselves.
"Well, we couldn't get a warrant to install a GPS tracker, but since your Escalade had a GPS/OnStar, we'll just ask GM for all of your travel history. Gee, it says here you were in an area which is known to have drug dealers and prostitutes".
Much like the Patriot Act rendered cloud-computing to be a security problem for anybody not in the US but using a US based service, the internet of things will essentially cause all of your information to become the property of a company, and readily accessible to the US government.
I can't possibly put enough layers of tin-foil on to make me feel any better about this stuff. Because we're hurtling towards the dystopian future some of us have been fearing for years.
Only we seem to be voluntarily providing the companies with this stuff in return for shiny baubles.
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Only we seem to be voluntarily providing the companies with this stuff in return for shiny baubles.
It's not that you seem to be doing that, it's that you are doing that, so the simple solution is to stop doing that. Sure it is less convenient but that's the tradeoff.
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I'm a law abiding citizen so I have nothing to hide. And I'm getting the new Eddie Bauer/Denali edition regardless!
Fool's logic.
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The sad truth is not enough people care.
Enough for what?
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Most people are busy with their petty little lives as their freedoms slink away as subtly as a frog slow boiling in water.
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Why isn't this required by law?
Recommended practices are easier to pass than law. Industry is okay with them because they can ignore them; Congress, agencies, or industry groups can pass them and pretend to be doing something. Occasionally they're even a little bit helpful.
Congress also does less with each passing year because, as it turns out, doing things in politics means people can paint you as against something, so the safest course of action for most politicians is to do nothing.
As a result, agencies and functionaries are left wi
Tracking Needs to be Illegal (Score:2, Insightful)
Full stop. Monetization of people, saving their data without their express, signed consent (after they have been acutely made aware -- no EULA click through counts) should be illegal with stiff penalties that include actual prison time. My data is mine. If you want it and want to make money from it, let me know and pay me. I think 50% of all profits you make from my data is beyond fair. Anything less is criminal.
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Getting a signature on a piece of paper is a bit impractical in the internet age, don't you think?
Would this prevent sites from counting how many visiters their site received? How about the number of visiters using Comcast? How about the number of visiters using Comcast in Dallas? The number of visiters with IP 142.14.8.63?
Would this mean that Amazon's fraud team would have to shut down, because they look for suspicious pattens of activity? For that matter, would credit card companies be able to do fraud an
A legal question (Score:2)
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If they're accused of a crime they can pretty much use anything to prove their guilt. This would be no different.
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But you don't have the clout to ask for it to prove your innocence.
It'd be a shame if someone couldn't bill the govt to hold your sorry ass inside a cell.
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If they have data, they can be forced to cough it up, either by a search warrant for criminal cases or via motions of discovery/subpoenas for civil.
So far, this hasn't seemed to have happened, but if it does become public, there will be a backlash, especially OnStar which has the ability to track and disable cars in realtime [1].
[1]: I hope GM knows what they are doing with security, because some group wanting to get themselves on the map could use that ability during a disaster (hurricane, man-made catast
Yes, it has already happened (Score:5, Informative)
So far, this hasn't seemed to have happened, but if it does become public, there will be a backlash, especially OnStar which has the ability to track and disable cars in realtime [1].
Ahem. Just a few links that spring to mind. You can easily find others.
TomTom sorry for selling driver data to police [ft.com]
“Government Motors” To Track Drivers With OnStar, Sell Data to Police [thenewamerican.com]
OnStar Tracks Your Car Even When You Cancel Service [wired.com]
Busted! Your car's black box is spying, may be used against you in court [computerworld.com]
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Right, their security is far beyond what any criminal organization can ever penetrate [kvoa.com]. Sure. Pull the other one, it's got bells on.
Grammar (Score:4, Funny)
Am I the only one who read that as the car makers are somehow not letting the nav system know the driver's location?
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No, you are not alone with readability concerns.
Bumper Sticker (Score:2)
Companies should not keep private information about individuals.
The government hates competition.
Re:Bumper Sticker (Score:4, Informative)
Companies should not keep private information about individuals.
The government hates competition.
No, the Government prefers corporations to do their work for them.
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Corporations prefer the government to make it mandatory and safe for them to collect.
Now it is getting easier. (Score:5, Interesting)
Most people look at it and ask my why or at least raise an eye brow. Now I can simply say, "NSA". And they will nod understandingly and my mojo as the rebel who defies the draconian government will go up one notch.
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Let me just address your points out of order, because it makes the most sense to do so.
the device itself does not have or need network connectivity.
That is orthogonal to this issue. Also, that is false, as I will show momentarily.
When you update the maps for your basic GPS, again, you're only transferring files to the device
The prior point is false because this point is false. The updater software can also take files off of the device. And as the device is typically a Windows Mobile device, it will have other channels for debugging as well, including but not limited to USB PAN.
You're an idiot.
Here's looking at you, kid.
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What about devices which update FROM an SD card or USB stick? It's still secure.
Those devices might be the bulk of the market in China, but they're the minority here in the USA, where the dominant GPS units all have updater applications. You can get those devices here, but odds are against you ever getting good map data, let alone an update with any such.
Not your data (Score:2)
Under long standing case law, information about you is not your data. e.g., the list of phone numbers you called are the business records of the phone company. So the police don't need a warrant to get it, they just have to ask the phone company which has no interest in your privacy.
It's almost certainly going to be the same in this case. The records the car company keeps are their records, including the tracking data. If the cops want to know where you've been, all they have to do is ask the car compan
Jealousy (Score:2)
They're not the only ones (Score:5, Interesting)
I was in a meeting today with a state DOT official who showed how his department buys monthly GPS tracking data on all traffic in the state, combined from companies including TomTom, Garmin, AT&T, etc. by a private company and processed by the University of Maryland. He was able to use it to prioritize road improvements and later show the benefits of those improvements. The data he had (average speeds for small stretches of road at hourly intervals) was quite granular and powerful for what he was doing but innocuous from a privacy perspective. The question should be, who else are these companies selling the data to and in what form?
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The question should be, who else are these companies selling the data to and in what form?
We sell it to whomever we wish, and most folks want it as an Excel spreadsheet. Any other questions?
Surprise ... (Score:3)
This is why stuff like OnStar, or the fully connected internet of things is going to be a privacy nightmare.
You can't turn off OnStar and trust they still aren't listening.
When you can't trust that your own property isn't spying on you (which can of course then be subpoena'd by law enforcement), you're pretty much screwed.
It's bad enough everything you do on the internet someone is trying to track -- having your car always telling the company where you are is beyond creepy.
Oh, there's a big surprise! (Score:2)
"which is a recommended practice" (Score:2)
Then make it law, and also make it law that all social sites have to show us what they've collected if we ask for it, AND THEN, destroy it if we quit their sites.
Use copyright (Score:3)
How about this?
1. Make a unique drawing on a piece of paper. I believe it automatically gets copyright.
2. Drive your car in a pattern matching that drawing.
3. Sue the car maker for having an unauthorized electronic rendition of your copyrighted work. Better yet, get all your friends to do that as well, and make a copyright infringement bomb.
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Bonus points if you create an original work and don't stay within the lines.
Tesla (Score:3, Interesting)
When my Tesla was delivered in 2012, I signed a "Data Usage Agreement" that essentially said that they would be collecting all of my data, all of the time, and using it for whatever they wanted (sort of).
I don't know what would have happened if I refused to sign that particular document, as and far as I know, every Tesla owner signed it.
I know of no way to opt out.
This is why I won't ever own a GM (Score:2)
GM = OnStar = off my shopping list.
Why? Because I can (for now) at least make one choice in my life where I can protect my privacy just a little.
These companies collecting data are like the scorpion riding on the back of the animal crossing the river and can't help but sting their purveyor and drown as a result. These companies just can't help themselves but spy on you if it will make a buck - especially if the government will pay them for it.
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You could have saved yourself a lot of time and money by simply just pulling the dedicated fuse for the OnStar box or alternatively disconnecting the OnStar box from power.
Re:hate the new slashdot (Score:4, Informative)
One can always just pull the OnStar antenna and call it done. This is a lot easier than doing a rip-job, and easily reversible when it comes time to sell the car.
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Very true. I was meaning the realtime tracking data, not the crap stored in the ECM/TCM, where car makers do a scan to check for tunes or modifications and if anything is found, put the vehicle on the "warranty is DEAD" list that goes to all dealers.
Newer cars, it is the same thing like jailbreaking iPhones if one wants a custom tune. Miss one gotcha or signature check, and the ECM will just refuse to run, and when the vehicle is taken to the dealer for a reflash, from there on out, all repairs are owner
Re:Obvious. (Score:4, Insightful)
Fords don't have a bad mechanism either. They use one's cellphone for sending vehicle health reports and other items. So, instead of checking the forums for the antenna (or antennas) to disconnect, just disable Bluetooth on your phone, or just don't pair your phone up with the Ford console.
Re:Obvious. (Score:4, Interesting)
I would rather not pay for the hardware that presents a hazard I need to avoid. Reach a negotiated price with the dealer and let them know that not removing the built-in spy is a deal breaker.
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that reminded me of a time when I bought my last used car. I had relocated to a new state, sold my old car and needed a new one, somewhat soon (to stop paying for a rental car). I found a reasonable car at a dealership and we haggled on the price. we sat down and the salesman tried to get me to buy all kinds of useless stuff ('undercoating', etc). I didn't need any of it.
finally, he presents a box, almost like a small ring or jewelry box. it had keys in it for the 'alarm/security' system. I told him I
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When Tony Soprano had the Onstar and nav system ripped out of his new Escalade, who knew he was smarter than the NSA?
I remember Bruce Willis saying in an interview that before he decided to play a hitman in "The Whole 9 Yards" he went to visit some Mafia hitmen in Prison. They were thrilled to be consulted and quite a few of the things he said, or the mannerisms he picked up were in fact from the hit men.
It's funny because sometimes writers just make stuff up. Watch the writer's commentary from "The Thomas Crown Affair" and you'll find out much of the museum heist stuff was just to make a good show.
But other times, writ
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Back in 1980s some do-gooders who want to punish those that frequent pron stores would note the license numbers of their cars, go to DMV to get address. Then send a letter with idea it is the wife that will open and read the letter about where their husband was at.
Today they'll use location data to see if you're part of anything those in political power oppose. If you are you'll be on the IRS audit list, the 'pull out of line' TSA list (if not on the no-fly list), and the 'pre-approval always denied' healthcare list. Why should anyone worry if you have nothing to hide?